james3232

New Hugo Boss Spotted

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I do wonder how long those cameras on the Stantions are going to last. In general I do question the dependence on cameras for views outside. Not only do they have to be 100% waterproof and reliable, but they will be a drain on power. If there are any issues with the solar panels or charging system then surely they will be the first thing to be turned off.

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1 hour ago, Chimp too said:

I do wonder how long those cameras on the Stantions are going to last. In general I do question the dependence on cameras for views outside. Not only do they have to be 100% waterproof and reliable, but they will be a drain on power. If there are any issues with the solar panels or charging system then surely they will be the first thing to be turned off.

Manual periscope as a backup? 

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8 minutes ago, mad said:

Manual periscope as a backup? 

Like it! Proper submarine style with fold down handles. Will probably feel like he is in a submarine half the time!!

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You can see all the telltales from the cockpit through the windows. Cameras are more like for keeping eye on from the bed. Or during the night because I don't see any integrated light on deck.

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18 hours ago, forss said:

HB relased very detailed 3d model of the boat

https://sketchfab.com/models/23ba372e2a5446688b414dc93df5ac59/embed?

 

3d-min.png

Forss,

    Were you able to get that SketchFab model to load in your browser? I used your link and it would start to download the Boss model and then start the loading of the material mapping into higher resolution and then fail. I used SketchFab a lot in my marine design work for clients review and was pretty excited to see the Hugo Boss model but I have doubts that the model on SK was actually released or authored by them. The guy who uploaded it 'MightyVisage' uploaded that model from 3ds Max which is not a real design software but rather a visualization mesh modeler. And the author has about 9 other models uploaded which are mostly staircases and other architectural models and no other marine efforts so I wouldn't credit that Boss model to him.

    How did you come to hear about that model?

image.png.7a3c271bfc83766af458dec4ddcb5673.png

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29 minutes ago, yl75 said:

It works for me (chrome on mac os)

Working here for me now, must have been the thousands of SA geeks rushing to download the model just as it was announced here! Actually a pretty good model for being done in a arch viz program but I hope Hugo Boss isn't really using this model for real NA. 

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Thanks Jon. I hope the boat itself is better thought out than their WebGL 360° webpage. I couldn't get either resolution to load on the 'Hub'. I've have never tried 'embedding' my SketchFab models into another webpage as they have done but now I'm curious.

Here is the error message I get

image.thumb.png.e90c6f496ec65785536532e474e1cb63.png

May not look as expected...

Isn't 'OK' now considered a white supremacist thing? Can't have that...

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Weird, its the same embed as whats on the sketchfab page, if it works there it should work on the hugoboss site, maybe its your adblockers!

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13 hours ago, pilot said:

You can see all the telltales from the cockpit through the windows. Cameras are more like for keeping eye on from the bed. Or during the night because I don't see any integrated light on deck.

Hopefully they're for a live internet feed so we can sit on our couches and criticize his sail trim!

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10 hours ago, eastern motors said:

Hopefully they're for a live internet feed so we can sit on our couches and criticize his sail trim!

On his tour video he does suggest the cameras are also there for streaming / publishing video during the race.

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The foils look to be 180 degrees of a circle... it's almost as if they should have gone 270 so when fully retracted the top end could still act as a Figaro 3 style foil if the boat heels, but stay out of the water if it doesn't

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13 hours ago, Rainbow Spirit said:

What we really crave is some sustained video shots of HB.

Amazed there haven't been any yet, are they asking or keeping boats away during the trials?

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12 minutes ago, mad said:

Amazed there haven't been any yet, are they asking or keeping boats away during the trials?

They have been VERY hush hush with the new boat compared to everyone else so it's understandable they haven't released any yet. 

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Think it was the same last time round. ATR tends to keep to themselves and develop independently of the other competitors 

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^^ I notice there's not much keel cant in that screen capture, I figure that angle would seem about right there, all things considered; add a little lift from the keel blade to negate bulb weight some and harmonize with the foil's lift. anyone else see it that way?

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I am not convinced HB has a canting keel as all the footage I have seen so far does not show the keel canted to windward. Maybe the foils are providing the additional stability instead. Does the IMOCA rule have a minimum weight requirement of the overall boat and/or the keel/bulb. Maybe HB has gone for weight savings without the hydraulics?

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I see it this way that for speed they need to induce greater heel angle. By heeling they can shift the center of sail pilling force over the center of resistance mainly generated by foil and the more it heels the less by keel. And actually the more it heels the more it creates turning force toward wind (sail force is more away than the center of resistance). To compensate this the rudder must turn also toward wind and in doing that it raises the stern. The more it heels the more has the rudder useful angle for lift. This explains also why the rudders have paced more vertical than it would be optimum according to the hull surface.

So, we can see them flying if they manage to find the point of balance. I am not surprised if this requires some negative keel angle. And because everything has to be balanced by one surface it is highly unstable. While the stern is rising the angle of foils needs to be changed and this is not automated. 

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28 minutes ago, Chucky said:

I am not convinced HB has a canting keel as all the footage I have seen so far does not show the keel canted to windward. Maybe the foils are providing the additional stability instead. Does the IMOCA rule have a minimum weight requirement of the overall boat and/or the keel/bulb. Maybe HB has gone for weight savings without the hydraulics?

Use your brain numpty, all IMOCA’s have canting keels. It’s inconceivable to NOT have one. It should be noted that since the last VG canting keels havent been canted out to the max on foiling boats in certain conditions since the foils create so much RM and iirc max rm is limited in the IMOCA class. 

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34 minutes ago, pilot said:

It looks like they broke the starboard foil. A stump looks to be still there but the rest of it is nowhere seen:

 

 

Hopefully not.  Those foils take months to make.

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Hard to see whether there is any damage, but hard to believe they would moor up with the foil under the dock.

something does appear wrong.

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7 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

Use your brain numpty, all IMOCA’s have canting keels. It’s inconceivable to NOT have one. It should be noted that since the last VG canting keels havent been canted out to the max on foiling boats in certain conditions since the foils create so much RM and iirc max rm is limited in the IMOCA class. 

Max RM is limited by the one design rig.

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24 minutes ago, samc99us said:

Max RM is limited by the one design rig.

Yes the OD rig and keel are now both effectively fuses as they were not designed to take the loads now possible with these foils.  They watch rig loads very closely already when sailing.

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The best fuse is the foil itself. Probably they calculate the braking load to be just under the rig RM limit. You can sail with missing foil but not without the rig.

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Possible, but I think it's more likely that a modelling assumption was just plain wrong.  This whole thing is so completely different they just don't know.

Either that or it was built wrong, or they hit something.  WTF do we know...

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1 hour ago, pilot said:

The best fuse is the foil itself. Probably they calculate the braking load to be just under the rig RM limit. You can sail with missing foil but not without the rig.

Idiot!!

if you break the foil you are out of the race as much as if you break the rig. The best fuse is to reduce keel cant.

 

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This is more like long term measure that you cannot count on in case of sudden dynamic load. And at least with the broken foil you can limp to home. What they probably had to do today. 

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One cannot see the foil at all in the first pics of this serie :

 

 

And I don't think a stump can be seen above.

Plus if the pics are in order, they were leaving the dock.

So I would say the starboard foil is simply out of the boat for whatever reason.

(hope nothing serious)

 

By the way, what are the carbon poles that can be seen on the first pics, laying on the aft deck ? :

 

 

 

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Yl, those poles will be outriggers. Bloody long ones though.

agree, it looks like the foil is out rather than broken off in these photos. Not surprised they come out regularly for checks and maintenance, hopefully that is the case here.

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2 hours ago, Chimp too said:

Yl, those poles will be outriggers. Bloody long ones though.

agree, it looks like the foil is out rather than broken off in these photos. Not surprised they come out regularly for checks and maintenance, hopefully that is the case here.

The only really odd thing in the photos is they were out on the water with only one foil installed.

Whoever took the dock photos didn't focus in on the foil area for whatever reason.  Maybe told not to? :ph34r:  

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If the starboard foil was broken, why would they need the super duper mega fender between the boat and the dock? A regular fender would suffice, no?

The fact that they still use the humongous fender makes me believe that the foil is still OK; maybe not on the boat on that particular photo, but intended to be back in the boat...

Some may say I am going through a bout of wishful thinking though...

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Hope so as well.  Plymouth Yacht Haven seem to be where at least some of those pictures were taken.  The Gosport area is the HB home port I think.  So what they would be doing at another port a fair distance away without a foil is a question mark to me.  Could of course be some other issue than a breakage that required it be removed.

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Could be that they were heading to Plymouth expecting some visitors/guests and pulled the foil so that they could more easily tie up and accommodate guests.

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On 10/5/2019 at 3:15 AM, Chimp too said:

Idiot!!

if you break the foil you are out of the race as much as if you break the rig. The best fuse is to reduce keel cant.

Pedantically, if it is an adjustment it isn't a fuse. The point of a fuse is that it breaks instead of something else. You want the thing that breaks to be the one that leaves you in the safest possible state relative to any of the things that the fuse is protecting failing would leave you in. If you break a foil you are probably out of contention to win the race. You can still reasonably expect to complete the race. (Which given in the VG completion gets you automatic selection into the next race is pretty important.)  But drop the rig and you will not only not complete the race, but depending upon circumstance, may well be in serious danger requiring outside assistance or rescue, up to and including loss of the boat. The best fuse is something you can replace, and get under way again. It would interesting if there could some sort of cassette design that let the foil swing up with a replaceable link. Lots of additional complexity and weight, and more failure modes. Time will tell how useful such an idea might be.

The nature of the game is that skippers will push the boats as hard as they dare. Load cells in the rig provide real time readouts of loads, but as noted earlier, maximum safe loads become targets rather than limits, and the entire boat is always on the ragged edge of failure. 

There is no easy answer. It is behoven on the designer to design in safe failure. That is just good engineering. But how you balance this against ultimate speed isn't trivial. Eventually it is risk reward, with steps in the functions, and lots of unknowns. You can design a boat so that, so long as nothing goes wrong at all, it is faster than anything else. But you will pay the price that it is more likely to break. If all you care about is the win, and second place is no better than not finishing, the choice is easy. But in a fleet of boats designed with this mentality, a boat that pulls back a fraction, and has more resilience, may well leave many broken boats in its wake. But it would require every ultimate design boat to break in order for it to win. Pure luck probably means one of the ultimate designs doesn't break. 

Overall there is a spectrum of design decisions possible, and skippers will be a big part of the process. Eventually it is good for the breed. As the old adage says: good decisions come from experience; experience comes from bad decisions.

 

 

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7 hours ago, bosshawg said:

Could be that they were heading to Plymouth expecting some visitors/guests and pulled the foil so that they could more easily tie up and accommodate guests.

Could well be given how big they are? But who knows, don't think they broke it anyhow. Could well be testing of something else?

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3 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Pedantically, if it is an adjustment it isn't a fuse. The point of a fuse is that it breaks instead of something else. You want the thing that breaks to be the one that leaves you in the safest possible state relative to any of the things that the fuse is protecting failing would leave you in. If you break a foil you are probably out of contention to win the race. You can still reasonably expect to complete the race. (Which given in the VG completion gets you automatic selection into the next race is pretty important.)  But drop the rig and you will not only not complete the race, but depending upon circumstance, may well be in serious danger requiring outside assistance or rescue, up to and including loss of the boat. The best fuse is something you can replace, and get under way again. It would interesting if there could some sort of cassette design that let the foil swing up with a replaceable link. Lots of additional complexity and weight, and more failure modes. Time will tell how useful such an idea might be.

The nature of the game is that skippers will push the boats as hard as they dare. Load cells in the rig provide real time readouts of loads, but as noted earlier, maximum safe loads become targets rather than limits, and the entire boat is always on the ragged edge of failure. 

There is no easy answer. It is behoven on the designer to design in safe failure. That is just good engineering. But how you balance this against ultimate speed isn't trivial. Eventually it is risk reward, with steps in the functions, and lots of unknowns. You can design a boat so that, so long as nothing goes wrong at all, it is faster than anything else. But you will pay the price that it is more likely to break. If all you care about is the win, and second place is no better than not finishing, the choice is easy. But in a fleet of boats designed with this mentality, a boat that pulls back a fraction, and has more resilience, may well leave many broken boats in its wake. But it would require every ultimate design boat to break in order for it to win. Pure luck probably means one of the ultimate designs doesn't break. 

Overall there is a spectrum of design decisions possible, and skippers will be a big part of the process. Eventually it is good for the breed. As the old adage says: good decisions come from experience; experience comes from bad decisions.

 

 

The reason for such a fuse is to ensure that RM limits are not exceeded. The best way to do this is to have a “fuse” in the keel can’t mechanism. Historically that would be built into the hydraulic system as a pressure relief valve. But with the keel now only producing a smaller percentage of the overall RM such a trigger would need to be linked to the rig load sensors. I would see the simplest answer would be a link between the keel PLC and the load sensors. If RM peaks then the PLC automatically dumps the keel ram.

 The simplest, lightest solution and all equipment is already there.

when they get to the next evolution of foils providing majority of RM and fixed keel I suspect they will have new rigs anyway and hopefully not OD ones 

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8 hours ago, Chimp too said:

The reason for such a fuse is to ensure that RM limits are not exceeded. The best way to do this is to have a “fuse” in the keel can’t mechanism. Historically that would be built into the hydraulic system as a pressure relief valve. But with the keel now only producing a smaller percentage of the overall RM such a trigger would need to be linked to the rig load sensors. I would see the simplest answer would be a link between the keel PLC and the load sensors. If RM peaks then the PLC automatically dumps the keel ram.

 The simplest, lightest solution and all equipment is already there.

when they get to the next evolution of foils providing majority of RM and fixed keel I suspect they will have new rigs anyway and hopefully not OD ones 

I hope they OD mast and keel get an upgrade, They're the limiting factor in RM these days, I'm expecting lots of rig failures for this VG. 

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Perhaps next round. Because there will be enough "old" foilers around to justify a bit more performance at the top end. Not so much that top teams were too optimistic with what the OD mast can take.

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I hope there wont be a lot of failures but I would expect to see some rig, hull and keel issues along the way that can be traced back to the foils

I see comments by people like Sam Davies talking about watching rig loads almost constantly when pushing hard on the Fastnet.  I am pretty sure that boat predates the OD rig rule (ex Foncia) so they could be using an old mast still under grandfather rules.  The original mast broke on the BWR. The boat was never designed to have massive foils and it has already had delamination issues with slamming in areas that pre-foils were not high load areas.  Other boats like La Fabrique are trying to balance doing the minimum structural changes (lowest cost) with the most powerful foils they can run in that configuration on what is now a pretty old boat.  I would think the new boats would be better but not immune.

Its near to a situation where you get something wrong or don't keep a check on loads and the outcome is probably not so good.

From memory the OD mast rule was pushed through by the Vendee Globe RO to improve finishing rates.  Could now have the opposite effect now.  Kind of funny. 

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FV, thanks for the excellent prose at #849.

FYI, when I saw the previous HB on its NA tour a couple of years ago in my fresh-water locale, only one foil was installed (starboard). That was an evening I'll never forget.

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15 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Could well be given how big they are? But who knows, don't think they broke it anyhow. Could well be testing of something else?

Agree. Pretty doubtful they'd be able to keep a foil breakage under wraps for long.

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Maybe the team decided to test the boats behavior with one foil in the event AT loses another foil. 
 

would be a rather logical development program in a build up process. 

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14 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Ouch.

Lambs don't seem to mind, much. 

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12 hours ago, Tanton Y_M said:

I would want to have permission to have real spreader (s) on the mast.

955F-NR7-12.jpg

And maybe a boom that wouldn't rip your main in half?

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14 hours ago, Tanton Y_M said:

I would want to have permission to have real spreader (s) on the mast.



I think there is a non-rotating one-design rig option with spreaders but nobody uses it.

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2 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

I think there is a non-rotating one-design rig option with spreaders but nobody uses it.

There was one but not sure now if they have retained it in the latest rule. The mast comes with deck spreaders. Problem was that the tube is the same for both options. No weight saving for using traditional spreaders and you lose the small amount of wing aero gain along with the sheeting options off the deck spreaders. 

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I have no clue on what this claim is based on but I do hope so as well. At least Alex has confirmed that he'll be ready for TJV. So he either was mapping polars for such a case or he had spare foil waiting for it to happen.

Another article is coming. Can anyone tell is Alex wearing a set of Garmin Nautix In-view Display in this teaser picture:

 

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11 minutes ago, pilot said:

I have no clue what this claim is based on but I do hope so as well. At least Alex has confirmed that he'll be ready for TJV. So he either was mapping polars for such a case or he had spare foil waiting for it to happen.

Another article is coming. Can anyone tell is Alex wearing a set of Garmin Nautix In-view Display in this teaser picture:

Looks just like a comms headset, he apparently bosses around the crew who are trimming down below with it.

Foil claims were due to arriving in Plymouth without one of the foils, nothing official and no damage seen, just missing.

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Yes, I mean what he is wearing on top of the sunglasses. Garmin does not seem to be among official suppliers. So it must be a useful kit - he does not war it just for advertisement. 

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For all the jokers who were thinking that the curved foil might be for swap if breakage

Here is the crew needed, in flat harbour waters, to take one out on the former HB

 

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41 minutes ago, Raptorsailor said:

5ECB6187-C01C-4D86-ACF7-662B24E221ED.thumb.png.515d6bf68a812e5714f5ea92dd602a3c.png

Weird looking boom...

The pretty standard "thin V" shape on its side whilst rigging it isn't it? You can see foam blocks chocking it off the coach roof

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54 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

The pretty standard "thin V" shape on its side whilst rigging it isn't it? You can see foam blocks chocking it off the coach roof

Looks a pretty nice boom.  Light as possible I'm sure.  Not a whole lot of room for footing when moving down it to sort out reefing, stacking, water retention and batten issues but maybe he doesn't expect to be doing that much.

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Can a boom like that survive an unexpected gybe?  I'd tend to think the lateral load from the running backstay would be a problem for a boom that thin.

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25 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

Can a boom like that survive an unexpected gybe?  I'd tend to think the lateral load from the running backstay would be a problem for a boom that thin.

The shape of the boom is not circular, so its overall thinner than its circular equivalent, but its not indicative of its loading strength, that will be determined by its layup, the thickness of the wall, and what if any reinforcing there is, if you look at it compared to Alex's arm its quite "tall" so its not a small boom by any means. Its very similar shape wise to what the TP52s use and whilst they do drop rigs from time to time I can't recall one breaking a boom in recent years?

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2 hours ago, JonRowe said:

. Its very similar shape wise to what the TP52s use and whilst they do drop rigs from time to time I can't recall one breaking a boom in recent years?

May be a similar shape but I would not think any modern TP52 boom is built to take anything like what an IMOCA has to do. They are basically inshore boats these days.

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17 minutes ago, jb5 said:

May be a similar shape but I would not think any modern TP52 boom is built to take anything like what an IMOCA has to do. They are basically inshore boats these days.

Again its impossible to know the engineering without knowing the structure, layup and thickness but if you would like some examples of offshore TP52s (or technically TP52s if not class legal) Ichi Ban, Tala, Outsider, Zen, can I include Hooligan if it doesn't do a Hobart but I don't think that the boom is the issue there :lol:

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8 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

Again its impossible to know the engineering without knowing the structure, layup and thickness but if you would like some examples of offshore TP52s (or technically TP52s if not class legal) Ichi Ban, Tala, Outsider, Zen, can I include Hooligan if it doesn't do a Hobart but I don't think that the boom is the issue there :lol:

I don't see your point here. Personally I would not compare the two. 

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25 minutes ago, jb5 said:

I don't see your point here. Personally I would not compare the two. 

Eh I guess my point was just that I'm sure the boom will be ok!

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5 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

Eh I guess my point was just that I'm sure the boom will be ok!

What I would think as well 

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Don’t forget that an IMOCA boom doesn’t have to cope with vang loads.

pretty surprised that they pushed this far in aero considering that the boom will spend a lot of time with a reef or two sitting on it. Would expect some support frame for that by the time they put their VG boom in.

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foil was out for servicing, refitted at plymouth.  It  is all about getting miles and data on the boat. 
more miles = more data = better analysis = improved performance

Mollymawk did 10,000+ year and i knew her like back of my hand,  Pegasus took us 2 1/2  years to get to know the boat (then she was sold) on Buzz.. we are  in early days of learning.... and i expect AT/HB are learning still

 

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HB CEO Hosford is leaving tomorrow (!). A bit of strange announcement timing wise (with their first race next week) and so sudden with no hint who is replacing him. Hint of internal turmoil? 

https://www.alexthomsonracing.com/blog/2019/10/16/alex-thomson-racing-announces-departure-of-ceo-stewart-hosford/

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Quote

Hosford leaves Alex Thomson Racing to pursue new ventures at Origin Sports Group, the portfolio sports business owned by Sir Keith Mills, Chairman of Alex Thomson Racing. 

Sounds more like a reshuffle than anything else...

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Maybe, Hosford and Origin could end up managing, TOR?

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1 minute ago, Sailbydate said:

Maybe, Hosford and Origin could end up managing, TOR?

Sadly not I suspect, from the same paragraph in the article:

Quote

Hosford will now play a key role in the management and execution of a major new sports event outside the world of sailing, set to be announced later this year.

Maybe Sir Keith doesn't like all the limelight Jim Ratcliffe is getting so is moving into cycling too ;)

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