NOCALSAILOR

Cat tails from over the horizon

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8 hours ago, EarthBM said:

Have you been on it? Looks fantastic (like most center pod cats, eg Windswept II), but can it really be owner-operated? 

Only 2 sails.

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On 8/30/2019 at 1:29 PM, soma said:

$1.89m for the 48. 

$1.895m to be exact.

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On 9/3/2019 at 11:19 PM, soma said:

https://m.sailboatlistings.com/view/82266

 

I love this boat and it just had a big price drop. 

Agreed she’s a weapon and well laid out with huge spaces. 

First went onboard in St Barths in 2009 after she was launched then Claudia and I went to view her in France last year. Michel the owner keeps her in mint condition super impressive. 

And yes Speng Spirit is still for sale. 

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18 hours ago, trispirit said:

Agreed she’s a weapon and well laid out with huge spaces. 

First went onboard in St Barths in 2009 after she was launched then Claudia and I went to view her in France last year. Michel the owner keeps her in mint condition super impressive. 

And yes Speng Spirit is still for sale. 

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Dream boat right there!

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Nightmare. So big you are a slave to the necessary systems and operating costs. Way bigger than needed. That is a toy for the rich. IMHO.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Nightmare. So big you are a slave to the necessary systems and operating costs. Way bigger than needed. That is a toy for the rich. IMHO.

Systems don’t look too bad versus most 40’ condos. But the size... fully agreed, I don’t know where you’d put it; would be very restrictive.  

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The challenge is in the developed destinations, there are fewer and fewer places to anchor. And most moorings are sized and spaced for 35-50 foot boats. So where to put her becomes the biggest challenge unless you mostly stay with undeveloped destinations. Hence - the arrival of the "Superyacht Ghettos" - the relative handful of places in the developed destinations where a beam (length not really the issue) like this can be accommodated. And those Superyacht Ghettos cater to yachts where the biggest bill is crew and sails (sailboats) or motoryachts where fuel dwarfs everything else; the dock bills be they ever so dear are mostly sofa change to them.

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21 hours ago, trispirit said:

Agreed she’s a weapon and well laid out with huge spaces. 

First went onboard in St Barths in 2009 after she was launched then Claudia and I went to view her in France last year. Michel the owner keeps her in mint condition super impressive. 

And yes Speng Spirit is still for sale. 

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Looks very cool and just makes sense, sailing-wise. 

What about living space in the hulls though — there aren’t even any portholes facing out — is it like sleeping on the amas of a large trimaran?

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Went to see a Catana 522 yesterday and realized what felt wrong all these other times on Catanas... the 2-foot deep lockers underneath the cockpit floor. So you start with trying to get reasonable bridgedeck clearance, then add those lockers, then standing headroom under a walk-on (ie thick and heavy) roof. No wonder the boom is so high above water the whole mast looks like an afterthought stick on top of a motorboat, just for show. after that you start noticing everything... the 1.5-foot deep bilges (add standing headroom and the hull windage dwarfs mainsail area), pull-out drawers under the berths with just as much wasted volume around them as in the drawers themselves...

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^ +1000%

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On 8/21/2019 at 3:34 AM, solarfuel said:

I saw a mastfoil here in Annapolis, parked on the South River almost all of last summer but I was just day dreaming at that point and never tried to hook up with the captain/owner. I am now regretting that decision, if anyone knows who that may of been and if they are still in MD/on the East Coast a lead would be much appreciated.

Having owned an A57 and a A47MF, the 47MF is much easier to sail and manage. She is also more than capable as a blue water cruiser. We’ll be sailing around Penobscot Bay all Sept on Agility our A47MF.  

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On 8/11/2019 at 3:15 AM, NOCALSAILOR said:

 

 

As for me I will continue to sail downwind towards NZ and see what I find.   

Can see 2013 built Lerouge-45 (6.75 tons empty) there in SEA at asking Eur 380k. Can contact the Owners and ask if their price has changed.

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18 hours ago, steelmadesteamer said:

Can see 2013 built Lerouge-45 (6.75 tons empty) there in SEA at asking Eur 380k. Can contact the Owners and ask if their price has changed.

I am not 100% sure, but I think the Philocat is sold (or withdrawn). Nice boat though. 

Paul 

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On 9/7/2019 at 4:56 PM, EarthBM said:

Went to see a Catana 522 yesterday and realized what felt wrong all these other times on Catanas... the 2-foot deep lockers underneath the cockpit floor. So you start with trying to get reasonable bridgedeck clearance, then add those lockers, then standing headroom under a walk-on (ie thick and heavy) roof. No wonder the boom is so high above water the whole mast looks like an afterthought stick on top of a motorboat, just for show. after that you start noticing everything... the 1.5-foot deep bilges (add standing headroom and the hull windage dwarfs mainsail area), pull-out drawers under the berths with just as much wasted volume around them as in the drawers themselves...

Nils, Lord Dicky looks like a mini Orange after cruising refit. Funny how the listing did not have hull interior shots...

BM, re: Catanas with afterthought stuck on masts & no sail area, I reef in 17 true and go faster. The 522 may not be the highest performance model, but they sail just fine. I like to say 522 is a “little big” Catana, in that she shares more with her larger sisters like the 581/582. We own and live aboard a “big little” Catana, a 471. We sought out this generation of Catana, as have many other folks with racing and extensive cruising backgrounds. Not that winning medals or World Championships makes one a good judge of cruising boats or anything.

I think Chris Barreau hit a nice spot on the comfort vs speed ratio. Outremer has also hit similar market space with their recent Barreau designs. 

My walk-on hard top weighs 230 lbs. A good Tornado sailing friend built it with H-45 & donated carbon from another Tornado sailor (thanks Sid!) and a little help from me. We have eight flush mount solar panels up there, and I am thankful to have it on hot days and when stowing the main (and instead of a genset.)

Cruising performance? We have only done 287 miles in 24 hours, but I am cool with that, as the wind died over the last four hours.

We only point at 48 TWA, but you can’t have it all while carrying around so many amenities.

Five family members maxed out our berth capacity in Bras d’Or Lakes last month, but I don’t really want more guests than that  at once.

We seated 14 for dinner last January at Lee Stocking, and the only downside to that was my wife now believes we need that quantity of china & cutlery. And I love her.

It sounds like you are averse to the freeboard. Voyage has made hundreds of sleek, low pro cats, some that have circumnavigated. Some bargains out there. Maybe you want to fly a hull? Sig 45?  

Gold Coast will build you another Fijian if you have Slyngstad depth pockets. Danson era Outremers are fine boats, if their low interior volume is adequate for your needs. We decided we needed more space than my friend’s O55 afforded, and ended up with our perfect boat. Those Catana cockpit lockers are great for shore power cords, hoses, repair materials, two stroke oil for the outboard, rubbing compound, epoxy, kiteboards, sails... all kinds of stuff cruisers cart around. And our high freeboard keeps the decks -and boat- drier, and reduces bridge deck slap to acceptable levels. No slight to the low riders, just our preference. 

If you care to learn about the big 522s, the former North rep from Tahoe is cruising Europe on his right now. I am sure he would candidly describe the strengths & weaknesses of the design.

Or you can mouth off on an Internet forum. 

Good luck with your search. 

 

Never was

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2 hours ago, Never was said:

I reef in 17 true and go faster.

Perhaps because the heeling moment is too high since the mainsail is so high up above the waterline?

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5 hours ago, Never was said:

Cruising performance? We have only done 287 miles in 24 hours, but I am cool with that, as the wind died over the last four hours.

We only point at 48 TWA, but you can’t have it all while carrying around so many amenities.

That is still pretty impressive.  

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I do like the 471 and she’s an able cursing  ship by all accounts but this isn’t even close to a realistic expectation.  Frankly I doubt those  performance metric are achievable ever. 

5 hours ago, Never was said:

We own and live aboard a “big little” Catana, a 471.

Cruising performance? We have only done 287 miles in 24 hours, but I am cool with that, as the wind died over the last four hours.

We only point at 48 TWA, but you can’t have it all while carrying around so many amenities.

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8 minutes ago, Agility said:

I do like the 471 and she’s an able cursing  ship by all accounts but this isn’t even close to a realistic expectation.  Frankly I doubt those  performance metric are achievable ever. 

??

I've done 12 knots average over 24 hours several times on a 471, as well as on a Catana 50, both configured for cruising and consequently heavy. I've done 15 knots on the 50 plenty of times too, but not over 24 hours. And I've pushed both the 471 just shy of 20 knots surfing down waves and the 50 around 25 knots (not sure exactly what the max was, but we broke over 20 knots a dozen times). 

So I do believe @Never was if he says he's done 287 miles in 24 hours. It doesn't seem that extravagant a claim.

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Yep, that Gulf Stream can add some serious miles over 24!

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13 hours ago, boardhead said:

Yep, that Gulf Stream can add some serious miles over 24!

Yes it can! I should have put an asterisk by the 287. We were on track to do 315 until last four hours of diminishing winds. Sat on 15-17 for ages. The big girl can rumble along.  Top instantaneous paddle wheel speed has been 24 plus attained several times in different waters, but now we try to go slower. 

Rocket Raccoon, I thought 50 TWA was our best, but on the smooth, breezy waters of Bras d’Or Lake, 48 TWA at 7.4-8.2 kts boatspeed was indicated. In a seaway, no way. 50 or 52. Also, I believe our calibration is spot on, but I am not an electronics guru. B&G Zeus 3 is what we run. 

BM, our gooseneck is ~nine feet off the water. Clew of main about 12. I think our boat has a big main, and I stuck with high roach vs square top to keep center of effort lower. Are you sure you are not confusing Catana with Lagoon? Their recent models surely do have booms high off the water. 

Anyway, I like our boat. We have voted with our resources and most Catana folk are fairly enthused about their choice. I hope the market does not abandon this segment. I hope you find something better.

Cheers!

Never was

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Oops! Sorry Rocket Raccoon, I meant to respond to Agility. And I don’t mean to sound like our boat is better than someone else’s boat. We love her, and sometimes get our back up when she or her sisters are denigrated.

Fair winds!

Never was

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Oh no worries @Never was. Looks like you get a lot of fun out of your 471.

By the way, there is another 471 around Cape Breton... hmm... maybe not another, maybe it's you! I think it's one of the very first hull numbers, earlier than #10.

Anyway, enjoy the rest of the season if you can. Cheers!

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On 8/30/2019 at 9:14 PM, soma said:

Too true. The TS5 deserves its own thread. Hands down, best value on the market.

They are making them all right.

#7 launched:

 

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50 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

They are making them all right.

#7 launched:

 

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Does anyone know the lead time for one of these? I assume there's a long waitlist. 

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Im in the similar position as soma and Nicolsailor and am looking at a new fast cat with enough comfort to be a lifeaboard cat for atleast 1-3 years.

My current favourite is the Outremer 49, the 51 is nice but to expensive imo.

Now I discovered this small builder called Slyder and would like to get some input here. I will share all the infos I have here.

The Slyder 49, 12.1t heavy cat, curved daggerboards, foam core, carbon and kevlar reinforcement. 

As I understand they used to build them under the same brand (Slyder 47) but the company went bankrupt. 

It was a german engineering team and used to build in Italy. Now still german engineering team but building in China.

So that is what worries me, on one hand that china builder seems to have a lot of experience but on the other hand Gunboat had some problems with quality control in china. 

Second problem is that afaik there is only one Slyder 49 hull in existenz right now, so again there might be issues in the future when they have such little data on that particular design.

Big plus are the curved dagger boards, according to them it gives the boat 1t at 10kn speed and smoothens the ride in rough weather.

Polar diagram also looks decent.

Base price is 659k euro and includes a lot of things that would not be standard on an outremer.

Thats actually the biggest selling point for me right now, the price is just so damn tempting.

Even thought I was planing on buying a used one.

 

 

 

 

 

Slyder49_specs_options.pdf

Standard Rig Slyder 49.pdf

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Im only aware of the Slyder 47 from before the bankruptcy and the new Slyder49.

What really bothers me are those exposed helm positions. Anyone experience with those on long passages?

Only advantage I see is the direct steering mechanism that this positions makes possible and the super low boom. 

And how the cable pass at a 80 degree angel into these holes, won't that cause to much wear on the lines?

 

 

screenshot 2.png

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1 hour ago, babylon said:

What really bothers me are those exposed helm positions. Anyone experience with those on long passages?

Same as, for example, Catanas. In fact the boat strongly reminds me of the newer Catanas.

Lots of people like this helm arrangement. Frees up the space in the cockpit; helms right above the rudders, allows rack and pinion steering (super reliable);  good visibility on either sides (not at the same time); excellent visibility aft (e.g. when backing up to a dock); good view of the sails; good feel overall; etc.

On the other hand, you are exposed to the sun and rain. You are exposed to spray, but you also have the option of going to the leeward helm which is typically drier.

As usual, trade-offs...

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How financially protected are you if Slyder  company goes under? Think about getting a builder bond? What about warranty items when dealing with a Chinese builder? Who owns the boat if company fails during construction and you've already paid half the purchase price? (The creditors do, not you generally)

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The best value for your money is the used market, there's sooo many quality used cats out there, all you have to do is look.

Now, if you just won the lottery, then go for it, but never buy the first one out of the molds...... and stick with a well established builder.

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I have a hardtime finding good options boats.

My criteria right now:

-Fast enough, doesn't need to be an outremer but not the bulky Lagoons or Leopards. Plan is to do a full circumnavigation so speed will play a role I think.

-Long enough 46feet min 

-Enough living space as we plan to live on it and enjoy the time on the boat

-Either forward charttable or really well protected helm position

So far it is hard for me to find things under 500k, best option I see on the market right now is the Outremer 49.

Many of the old designed boats that are fast have tiny saloons or are made with balsa (schionning)

Many roomier older boats like a 2015 Outremer 51 are still listed for 840k+ euro

Same with catana. Thats why I started considering that Slyder 49 (659k euro) or Seawind (780k euro).

Actually I think used catanas are ridiculously overpriced, heavy, ugly, dated interior, small interior, not the fastest. Who is even the target audience? 

The seawind is amazing with its lifting rudders and lifting daggerboards it gets only 53cm draft. But pricewise its a bit outside my comfort zone.

 

 

 

 

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The US rep for Slyder is Don Buckles, who was the US rep for Catana for many years, and still the single most knowledgeable source on Catanas.

Don was my broker when I bought my boat, and he was at that time busy getting Slyder 49 #1 launched. He has sold a number of them. I don't know about right now today, but at that time - 12 months ago - I'm pretty sure the boats were being built in Italy. Not sure where the China thing comes from?

I think it's a pretty nice boat. Don was a bit coy about weight on #1, so I assume they missed, but hopefully practice makes perfect. I'd just say beware of list price v. fully equipped price - the devil is in the details.

And as others have said, the first few years of depreciation are a killer.....

On the Outremer 49, I looked at a few when I was shopping, and they are really very very close to the O51 - I liked it more than I thought I would. And the price is roughly half the O51, but I think those O51 prices won't hold up when the backlog clears and more come on the used market. Meanwhile the O49 is a pretty good bargain if you can find the owner configuration. 

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Just now, Rocket Raccoon said:

Oh... interesting. Don Buckles is the best agent I have ever encountered in the business (in about 15 years). Last I heard he was working with ITA Catamarans.

You're absolutely right - senior moment on my part. He is repping ITA, not Slyder - my apologies.

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Just now, CapDave said:

You're absolutely right - senior moment on my part. He is repping ITA, not Slyder - my apologies.

And it's ITA that's being built in Italy, not Slyder......

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re steering stations only on the hulls: from what I have seen, most people are not able to beat the autopilot on cruising cats.  Are these exposed steering stations designed to be used infrequently and therefore not really an issue for exposure?

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Yeah, the line routing doesn’t make sense to me at all. Even with rollers — they are trying too hard to get the lines out of the way, even the jib sheets are going through a couple of those rings that add nothing.

With that said, I quite liked the rest. The modern interior, the sense of a new cat smell.

If they had a tiller (instead of, not in addition to the wheels) steering stations I’d be thinking really hard about this choice.

Not sure about new-used value anymore actually. Boats are technology and you wouldn’t buy an iPhone X over the new 11, unless X came at a fraction of 11’s price. Between TS5, this Slyder, Asia Cat’s Stealth 14 the new boats seem more modern, fresher, and cheaper for what you get.

FWIW, at the same €649k base px, TS5 wins. But there is nothing in Slyder 49 that prevents it from being setup on par with TS5. Don’t know Stealth 14 px. 

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9 hours ago, eastern motors said:

The halyard setup looks like it could be an issue.  Shouldn't there be rollers instead of just rings ("frictionless").

Checkout the TS5.  http://www.marsaudon-composites.com/en/ts5/

The TS5 is surely a fast boat but for me its to far on the side of performance and not enough comfort. Not much payload capacity. Outremer has a better balance for fast live aboard. 

11 hours ago, Zonker said:

How financially protected are you if Slyder  company goes under? Think about getting a builder bond? What about warranty items when dealing with a Chinese builder? Who owns the boat if company fails during construction and you've already paid half the purchase price? (The creditors do, not you generally)

I have the same worries, but I guess there should be some kind of agreements that other small boat builders also use all the time.

The good thing is that the builder itself is quite a big one.

I think whats going on here is that the new CEO just bought Slyder in its bankruptcy with all its assets and found a new builder. So he has not much overhead. That ofcourse creates the issue with good support and guarantee. He said its 2years + 5years for structural issues. But seeing the issues that owners had with Neel makes me worry.

I think the Neel is an amazing concept and if they could deliver the same build quality like outremer for the Neel price, that would be my boat.

My prediction is that we will see one of the big builders start a Liveaboard Trimaran range just like Neel. Neel is growing massively. The classic catamaran market is way oversaturated with builders. But so far there is only one liveaboard Trimaran.

 

 

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I asked the Slyder CEO about the potential financial risks. He responded that he offers an option where I would make a 20% downpayment and pay the rest after the Handover oand inspection of a surveyor. That sounds pretty good to me tbh.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

re steering stations only on the hulls: from what I have seen, most people are not able to beat the autopilot on cruising cats.  Are these exposed steering stations designed to be used infrequently and therefore not really an issue for exposure?

Yeah, but it goes both ways. I feel that I would be at the helm a lot more if it were inside like on a Gunboat. In other words, sometimes I'm at the helm for fun, and if being exposed removes the fun I won't do it. So of course the autopilot does all the work, but the direction of the causation is "exposed therefore autopilot" and not "autopilot therefore helm can be exposed". Always trade-offs.

I also agree with EarthBM that tillers would be better. More fun, less room, fewer potential problems. But that is probably not a huge modification, maybe the builder would accommodate.

With tillers I think the trade-off equation is in favor of this helm arrangement for me.

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helms in that position are very good, dry unless power reaching and way better visibility.

reality is 95 percent of cruising is on autopilot unless you are in a crowded waterway(need good visibility) or if it is very rough in which case you need to be outside to feel the boat and waves see the sails etc. (you need a good autopilot and a good back up autopilot.)

Winches appear way too small, need to be 60 minimum on a 12 ton cat

 

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A lot of talk about autopilots here now, so I'll take the opportunity to ask this: There was an interview with someone in a performance cruising tri where he said that high performance boats tend to wear out autopilots faster than slower boats do. Is there any substance to this claim? If so, a boat with such unprotected helms would scare me a bit. Or is this just solved by carrying a spare autopilot or two?

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2 hours ago, Tylo said:

A lot of talk about autopilots here now, so I'll take the opportunity to ask this: There was an interview with someone in a performance cruising tri where he said that high performance boats tend to wear out autopilots faster than slower boats do. Is there any substance to this claim? If so, a boat with such unprotected helms would scare me a bit. Or is this just solved by carrying a spare autopilot or two?

I also heard the argument that not using the daggerboards and therefore letting the rudders do the works breaks the autopilot faster too.

I think in both situations the autopilot hydraulic is working much harder (more pressure resistance) and therefore breaks quicker then an autopilot that doesn't have to fight the rudder all day.

I think its the same with people, if a person has to hold course on a heavy rudder all day the fatigue much quicker then a light rudder.

 

 

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I don't remember the source, but their reasoning was that a performance multi might have less rudder pressure, but it would need much more rudder movements to keep course. 

Paul 

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Having two autopilots is essential, in my opinion. I have two and they are always on (but only one is actually engaged, obviously). I use both alternately in order to ensure they both work. I have been in several situations where I needed a backup and it wouldn't work. I also like that I see rudder angle on two displays (I've had problems with these sensors, so I don't trust them).

I know that having both autopilots electrically on is a risk. Someone could easily engage both by mistake. It is worth it to me because me and my wife are the only ones touching the autopilots (or any of the electronics), so the likelihood of engaging both autopilots at the same time is low. In fact in ~15 years of using this method we have never had this problem (but we've had several situations where we were happy that switching to the "backup" was as simple as "disengage main and engage backup"). 

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10 minutes ago, toolbar said:

I don't remember the source, but their reasoning was that a performance multi might have less rudder pressure, but it would need much more rudder movements to keep course. 

Paul 

In my personal experience actually watching a hydraulic ram do its job on my old Oyster 61 over a 20K mile cruise, and watching it on my Atlantic 57 over the 4.5K miles I've done so far, and with personal knowledge of the helm forces on each boat, I'd say the autopilot is doing a lot, a lot, less work on my A57. Range of motion, frequency of direction reversal, speed of motion, helm force, all parameters.

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In 75,000 miles on Zenyatta (GB62) we were on auto probably 95% of the time. We had a spare, but we used the same Raymarine Type 2 Linear Drive the whole time. I'm sure they break but I've got 100k+ miles with that unit without trouble. 

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2 minutes ago, babylon said:

Could it be better to get an oversized autopilot that doesn't work at its limits all the time?

The several autopilot failures I have experienced (and obviously it is anecdotal) have never been the ram itself. It's been the angle sensor, or the main electronic board. I do pay attention to the efforts on the rudder and trim accordingly.

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On 10/3/2019 at 12:00 PM, Rocket Raccoon said:

The several autopilot failures I have experienced (and obviously it is anecdotal) have never been the ram itself. It's been the angle sensor, or the main electronic board. I do pay attention to the efforts on the rudder and trim accordingly.

I believe that is what fails most often on the Open 60's and big ocean going multihulls. From what I've experienced with marine electronics, they are often not particularly waterproof and intended to be mounted somewhere high and dry, which is rarely practical and reality is that over several thousand ocean miles it will be damp at some point pretty much everywhere on the inside of a boat. Sensors have gotten better but they are all capable of failing. Hall effect angle sensors should be relatively reliable however (no moving parts).

Performance boats tend to run higher gains on their AP systems to extract more performance from the system, which in turn increases command frequency and could result in earlier system failure if the hydraulics aren't designed for high cycle life.

I agree with the comments up thread that the Outremer 49 is a good balance of space/performance/price, but I would also give serious thought to the TS5 at a similar price point. I don't think you are compromising much in terms of accommodations relative to the Outremer and gaining a good bit of performance and build quality. It is arguably the best built boat discussed in this thread, outside of some custom used boats.

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For those of us who are dreamers (or if any high net worth individual happens to browse this thread), Gunboat 62 TRIBE seems to officially have hit the market. No public asking price though.

I have no idea if she has been "turbo'd" and if so to what extent, but she looks to be in fantastic shape!

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/gunboat-62-3593998/
https://www.gunboat.com/brokerage/tribe/

061518RONB-8116.jpg

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1 hour ago, Tylo said:

For those of us who are dreamers (or if any high net worth individual happens to browse this thread), Gunboat 62 TRIBE seems to officially have hit the market. No public asking price though.

I have no idea if she has been "turbo'd" and if so to what extent, but she looks to be in fantastic shape!

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/gunboat-62-3593998/
https://www.gunboat.com/brokerage/tribe/

Anyone know if they accept limbs, appendages, or internal organs as payment?  

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4 hours ago, babylon said:

any guesses what the price should be for the tribe?

Starts with a $3 (last I heard). 

 

What it it should cost is up to the buyer. 

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6 hours ago, soma said:

Starts with a $3 (last I heard). 

 

What it it should cost is up to the buyer. 

Sick. I’m going straight to the top, and offering $3.99. 

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Based on this Thread and Soma's old Thread, Can we make a recap of SA approved affordable fast Cats for Extended cruising with the partner/family.

Outremer 49

Outremer 55

What else?

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1 hour ago, babylon said:

Based on this Thread and Soma's old Thread, Can we make a recap of SA approved affordable fast Cats for Extended cruising with the partner/family.

Outremer 49

Outremer 55

What else?

Catana 47 and a boat I recently purchased - dolphin 460.  Just finished harvest moon regatta off the Texas coast and the boat proved to be extremely quick.  Several husband / wife pairs with zero multi experience and we corrected over 2nd place  by two hours on an 18 hour run.  Even dialed it back after the microwave fell off the shelf.    Think these run in the 400ish range in decent condition so I’d call them affordable, relative.

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If anybody wants to build some sweat equity, there's the Atlantic 57 Leopard. Salvaged after 7 months in the water, been in North Carolina for a while. Just ran into Chris White in Annapolis, he's moving the boat to New England to have it closer to home - he's refitting the boat. We saw it from the outside, actually looks pretty good, didn't have a chance to go onboard. Engines are working, obviously, as he's motoring it north. No mast. Told me that the structure is 100%, that the salon windows were intact, that a substantial part of the interior woodwork actually survived. Having no headliner is a huge advantage in a situation like this. Obviously everything electrical/mechanical you have to start over.

Don't know what Chris would take, but I get the sense he's a bit busier with the project than he really wants to be. If you can do the rest of the refit yourself, I imagine you'd have a pretty heavily discounted Atlantic 57. And one of the premier ones - built by Aquidneck Composites.

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2 hours ago, babylon said:

Based on this Thread and Soma's old Thread, Can we make a recap of SA approved affordable fast Cats for Extended cruising with the partner/family.

Outremer 49

Outremer 55

What else?

TS5 bears repeating. 

 

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1 minute ago, soma said:

TS5 bears repeating. 

 

It doesn't have a wheel, are the tillers really sufficient for 1000 nm+ cruising? 

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58 minutes ago, babylon said:

It doesn't have a wheel, are the tillers really sufficient for 1000 nm+ cruising? 

 It’s sort of a matter of personal preference, but I prefer AP most of the time anyway 

The only time I like to drive is when it’s fun and sporty, and when it’s fun and sporty I prefer a tiller. 

 If I had the money to seriously consider buying a TS5 I think my first move would be to charter one. 

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1 hour ago, babylon said:

It doesn't have a wheel, are the tillers really sufficient for 1000 nm+ cruising? 

I think there is a pretty long history or extended ocean voyages without wheel steering...and then there is the autopilot

image.png.c0de897b147349c9d9ddb159ea0e994f.png

img_2105.jpg

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45 minutes ago, soma said:

 It’s sort of a matter of personal preference, but I prefer AP most of the time anyway 

The only time I like to drive is when it’s fun and sporty, and when it’s fun and sporty I prefer a tiller. 

 If I had the money to seriously consider buying a TS5 I think my first move would be to charter one. 

The payload of the TS5 is 2.4T. Im really bad at understanding how much payload I need and if that would be sufficient.

Would this be enough for a liveaboard worldcruising couple with some toys(scuba diving gear, efoil, kitesurfing eq), tools, spare parts, enough food to navigate the Polynesia etc.?

The price seems awesome, the performance seems amazing and resale value should also hold up well. 

The daybed in the salon is a really good feature for long passages. 

 

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3 hours ago, babylon said:

The payload of the TS5 is 2.4T. Im really bad at understanding how much payload I need and if that would be sufficient.

Would this be enough for a liveaboard worldcruising couple with some toys(scuba diving gear, efoil, kitesurfing eq), tools, spare parts, enough food to navigate the Polynesia etc.?

The price seems awesome, the performance seems amazing and resale value should also hold up well. 

The daybed in the salon is a really good feature for long passages. 

Payload is a tricky subject, for sure. I know engineers would cringe at this characterization, but I think the better question is volume. Does it have enough volume to store what you need? As payload increase the safety margins go down, the transoms get sunk in the water, but I doubt this is engineered so close to the edge that you’d exceed the design payload by enough to be really concerned. It’s a big boat for a couple (in the sense of volume). I doubt you’d overload her. 

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7 minutes ago, soma said:

Payload is a tricky subject, for sure. I know engineers would cringe at this characterization, but I think the better question is volume. Does it have enough volume to store what you need? As payload increase the safety margins go down, the transoms get sunk in the water, but I doubt this is engineered so close to the edge that you’d exceed the design payload by enough to be really concerned. It’s a big boat for a couple (in the sense of volume). I doubt you’d overload her. 

Once I add a washingmachine, More solar, Windgenerator, Watermaker, Hydrogenerator, more LiOn batteries, that could add up quickly.

TS5 is a fascinating boat for sure.

 

Deep in the weeds of the internet I found an interesting deal. A finished full carbon fiber hull of a 52 Cat. (catana style) The outside is finished, polished etc. The Manufacturer went bankrupt and its now for sale.

What would be a reasonable price range for that?

And how much would it cost to finish it to the TS5 level?

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I think the TS5 is a stunning boat and for the right people it'll be amazing. The payload is restrictive however. Note how the brochure says "8.6 t light (without options)". I assume this means that anything not listed in the standard spec must be added to that weight. That includes stuff like a tender+engine, energy generation (be that genset, solar or whatever), additional electronics and batteries, watermaker, washing machine, additional sails, hell maybe even anchor and chain?

That being said there are definitely measures you could take to help your cause. Spec it with a carbon mast and boom held up by synthetic rigging, that should save a good amount of weight in a place where it makes a big difference. Carbon forward crossbeam might save a bit more if there is one available. Does a 50ft sub-9t boat really need 2x40hp diesels? Maybe they could be downsized to 30's instead. Ditch one of the 200l water tanks and replace it with a small emergency watermaker in case the main one craps out since you now only carry 200l of water. Lithium batteries etc might save some more weight. At the end of the day, with a full cruiser loadout and ready to set sail, I think you may struggle to find payload capacity for many toys. You'll also need to be disciplined to not fill it up with things you pick up along the way.

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4 hours ago, babylon said:

 

 

 

Once I add a washingmachine, More solar, Windgenerator, Watermaker, Hydrogenerator, more LiOn batteries, that could add up quickly.

TS5 is a fascinating boat for sure.

 

Deep in the weeds of the internet I found an interesting deal. A finished full carbon fiber hull of a 52 Cat. (catana style) The outside is finished, polished etc. The Manufacturer went bankrupt and its now for sale.

What would be a reasonable price range for that?

And how much would it cost to finish it to the TS5 level?

 

 Nothing more expensive than a cheap boat!

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3 hours ago, soma said:

 

 Nothing more expensive than a cheap boat!

 

8 hours ago, babylon said:

 

 

 

Once I add a washingmachine, More solar, Windgenerator, Watermaker, Hydrogenerator, more LiOn batteries, that could add up quickly.

TS5 is a fascinating boat for sure.

 

Deep in the weeds of the internet I found an interesting deal. A finished full carbon fiber hull of a 52 Cat. (catana style) The outside is finished, polished etc. The Manufacturer went bankrupt and its now for sale.

What would be a reasonable price range for that?

And how much would it cost to finish it to the TS5 level?

$20,000 would be a reasonable buy if there were other parts as well.

Just remember a 50' cat sells for $2,000,000 and many manufacturers have gone broke trying to build them for that!!!!

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There's a Grainger Chincogan 52 with daggerboards and twin helms for sale. These normally come with mini-keels and single helms I think.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/grainger-chincogan-52-3594827/

Not sure if the 12t listed displacement is light or loaded, or something in between. I found another document listing light as 8.8t and loaded as 11.7t for a mini-keel version. That document also claims foam core.

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What about all the older Catanas? 47, 50, 52, there are some older ones on the market. Are they to slow or to expensive for beginning 2000 models

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29 minutes ago, unplugged34 said:

I've been thinking about the Balance 526.  I'm new to cats so would appreciate anybody's opinion.

 

https://balancecatamarans.com/our-models/526-2/

 

 

If you shop around that price range you have pretty good options.

I think my fav would be the Seawind 1600 if I had that budget.

It starts with 850k, and you can spec it out with everything carbon. Weight would be similar but nice features like rectractable rudders.

Same for Outremer 51 with all carbon and rotating mast. 

I think the balance is overpriced imo. 1M$ it would be a better consideration but for 1.5M$ thats asking to much.

 

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On 10/30/2019 at 4:01 PM, soma said:

TS5 bears repeating. 

 

What about the Chris Whites, Atlantic 47 and 55, they seem very fast, the forward looking station is amazing, only worry is the history capsizing.

 

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5 minutes ago, Agility said:

I can’t imagine my A47 Mastfoil capsizing. If it did, any cat would go over. 
 

Tim

Hi Tim - just saw and went aboard your old A57 Agility in Georgetown MD. They were replacing the electronics so she was pretty disassembled. She was hauled, and they were putting a really big bandaid on the front of the starboard keel - oops. Looked pretty good overall, though I have to say I prefer my color scheme on Boundless - I think the new owner after you chose the colors? And they did something a bit agricultural at the mast step with a huge SS weldment for the main halyard and mainsheet turning blocks. How was your Maine cruise?

Babylon - read up the thread where I mention A57 Leopard - there's a deal there to be made for somebody......

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5 hours ago, babylon said:

What about the Chris Whites, Atlantic 47 and 55, they seem very fast, the forward looking station is amazing, only worry is the history capsizing.

 

Would be good to see any data... any race, even like ARC, or reliable polars?

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