NOCALSAILOR

Cat tails from over the horizon

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Really like the Grainger lines, dagger boards, nice to see shafts rather then legs, don't like the sun awning setup looks like a box and doesn't fit the lines of the boat.

Also built under survey in Australia, that gives you someone else to chat to about the build.  It looks like there is some type of ventilation built into the forward top of the bridge-deck.

Gary Martin was building Cut-loose in a shed next to me, while i was hauled out at Bruce's yard in Aus. Very cool Grainger design.

https://www.graingerdesigns.net/video-and-photo-galleries/cut-loose/

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, @Keith, I read the line about ‘nothing forward of the mast bulkhead’ and then see the IMO rather exaggerated (and I’d bet fragile) sterns. Which to me equals the all too frequent weights by astern, and then adding length to the transom to alleviate the ass-heaviness. Which I bet is what the article referred to about ‘broadly adapted,’ the Manta pax have almost all done that and it’s so obviously an add-on

ive got my old girl just a little by the bows, and she is sailing damn near as well as before we moved aboard (ergo added a lot of weight).

It’s long been known it’s best to sail dinghy cats as bows down as you can, and that doesn’t change as they get bigger, within seaworthiness constraints, of course

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35 minutes ago, Max Rockatansky said:

, @Keith, I read the line about ‘nothing forward of the mast bulkhead’ and then see the IMO rather exaggerated (and I’d bet fragile) sterns. Which to me equals the all too frequent weights by astern, and then adding length to the transom to alleviate the ass-heaviness. Which I bet is what the article referred to about ‘broadly adapted,’ the Manta pax have almost all done that and it’s so obviously an add-on

ive got my old girl just a little by the bows, and she is sailing damn near as well as before we moved aboard (ergo added a lot of weight).

It’s long been known it’s best to sail dinghy cats as bows down as you can, and that doesn’t change as they get bigger, within seaworthiness constraints, of course

catamaran-cutloose.jpg

I thought the transoms were a finishing styling flourish. A bit like of a certain era of car design.

001.jpg

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14 hours ago, KC375 said:

catamaran-cutloose.jpg

That has got to be one of the best looking boat "rears" going :D

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7 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

That has got to be one of the best looking boat "rears" going :D

It definitely is pretty cool looking! But I think the sterns/transoms are somewhat impractical. They could be useful for coming alongside inboard with the dinghy to get in and out, though handholds will be needed. The problem is that bottom step is too close to the waterline, and out in the real world with the boat a little loaded down and a harbor chop that bottom step will be frequently wet, and probably get some growth on it too, and it will be slippery. It will turn into a frequent maintenance item....

Plus neither side has a swim ladder. Plus it's hard to tell, but I'm guessing there's not much hull volume under those extended sterns, so they don't do much for buoyancy and load carrying aft.

And while I'm on a roll - there's nowhere near enough shade for that cockpit.

For liveaboard cruising, the devil is in the details to be comfortable and safe and sufficiently convenient to keep everybody happy. 

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8 minutes ago, CapDave said:

The problem is that bottom step is too close to the waterline,

Its basically a tell tale to the wife, when to stop loading more bits & pieces on board.

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27 minutes ago, CapDave said:

...

And while I'm on a roll - there's nowhere near enough shade for that cockpit.

...

I think there is a certain design elegance to on demand shad, but you might still argue for more.

image.jpg

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44 minutes ago, KC375 said:

I think there is a certain design elegance to on demand shad, but you might still argue for more.

image.jpg

Clean lines are beautiful, can't argue with the look. But a truly successful liveaboard cruising design (the topic of this thread) delivers all the cruising amenities and still retains clean lines. That awning is great for a quiet afternoon. We've just had 5 days in a row of 20-25, gusting higher - that awning would be a disaster and have to come down. And you can't sail with that awning either, as the mainsheet is holding up the aft end. Tropical cruising without shade is too brutal, and skin cancer is a real thing. And those wet-foot sterns will get old fast too - a small nuisance in the tropics, but at higher latitudes suddenly your shoes get wet every time.....etc., etc. I don't mean to be a curmudgeon, but there's a really big gap between full time multi-year liveaboard cruising and everything else - daysailing, weekending, holidays, crewed charter, bareboat charter etc., etc. It's the old old gap between design intent and actual application....that's why out here cruising you see so many boats that look like flea markets they've got so much crap strapped and hung and cantilevered and etc. on deck.

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1 hour ago, CapDave said:

But I think the sterns/transoms are somewhat impractical. They could be useful for coming alongside inboard with the dinghy to get in and out, though handholds will be needed. The problem is that bottom step is too close to the waterline, and out in the real world with the boat a little loaded down and a harbor chop that bottom step will be frequently wet, and probably get some growth on it too, and it will be slippery. It will turn into a frequent maintenance item....

Plus neither side has a swim ladder. Plus it's hard to tell, but I'm guessing there's not much hull volume under those extended sterns, so they don't do much for buoyancy and load carrying aft.

I'm guessing the boat is already loaded down as shown and that the whole point of doing that is to add volume below the surface where it's useful.  No reason to assume it's not there.  And no need for a swim ladder when the first step is so close to the surface.  The only downside I see is being pooped by a following sea, but it looks like the first two long steps have substantial slope to drain them quickly.

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1 hour ago, CapDave said:

Clean lines are beautiful, can't argue with the look. But a truly successful liveaboard cruising design (the topic of this thread) delivers all the cruising amenities and still retains clean lines. That awning is great for a quiet afternoon. We've just had 5 days in a row of 20-25, gusting higher - that awning would be a disaster and have to come down. And you can't sail with that awning either, as the mainsheet is holding up the aft end. Tropical cruising without shade is too brutal, and skin cancer is a real thing. And those wet-foot sterns will get old fast too - a small nuisance in the tropics, but at higher latitudes suddenly your shoes get wet every time.....etc., etc. I don't mean to be a curmudgeon, but there's a really big gap between full time multi-year liveaboard cruising and everything else - daysailing, weekending, holidays, crewed charter, bareboat charter etc., etc. It's the old old gap between design intent and actual application....that's why out here cruising you see so many boats that look like flea markets they've got so much crap strapped and hung and cantilevered and etc. on deck.

Without taking away from your general observation, the main sheet does not appear to be holding up the awning. (If you go to the web site you can see a blown up version of photo). I’m not sure what props it up so you may be right that it is not usable underway.

How much cover you like I think is a bit cultural and climate and usage (as you point out). The French cat builders were for many years resistant to covering the cockpit until the charter fleet demand just over came their resistance. I’d personally opt for permanent cover...go to the tramp if you want to work on your skin cancer. I’d also organize an awing for up front at anchor.

Having said that, Cutloose would meet my needs better than the vast majority of cats in the size range.

Interesting to note the variations on davits from none to metal ones pointing up (photo above)to more elegant ones...

image.jpg

catamaran-cutloose.jpg

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26 minutes ago, KC375 said:

Without taking away from your general observation, the main sheet does not appear to be holding up the awning. (If you go to the web site you can see a blown up version of photo). I’m not sure what props it up so you may be right that it is not usable underway.

How much cover you like I think is a bit cultural and climate and usage (as you point out). The French cat builders where for many years resistant to covering the cockpit until the charter fleet demand just over came their resistance. I’d personal opt for permanent cover...go to the tramp if you want to work on your skin cancer. I’d also organize an awing for up front at anchor.

Having said that, Cutloose would meet my needs better than the vast majority of cats in the size range.

Interesting to note the variations on davits from none to metal ones pointing up (photo above)to more elegant ones...

image.jpg

catamaran-cutloose.jpg

 

 

Obviously I've got time on my hands this afternoon in Grenada.....Day 29 of 24/7 curfew. Every boat is a compromise, no doubt. I made compromises choosing my Atlantic 57 that I wish I didn't have to, but wasn't ready for a 3-year design and custom build program, and no other set of compromises in any other boat on the market at the time in my price range looked better. You're right about the awning, I think it's tied to those apparently now-defunct spikey davits. 

ProaSailor - can your wife exit the deep end of the pool without ladder or stairs? Your kids? That's the same move to get on to those sterns without a ladder; maybe harder because there's no wall.

BTW we added lots of shade to A57 Boundless - aft we copied sistership Cerulean with the addition of a stern drop-screen, and forward we made up our own. And we have a tramp awning too, one side with a center drop curtain. All awnings are designed for 40 knots, and work sailing - except the tramp awning which blocks the staysail, though could be used with the genoa.

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7 minutes ago, CapDave said:

Obviously I've got time on my hands this afternoon in Grenada.....Day 29 of 24/7 curfew. Every boat is a compromise, no doubt. I made compromises choosing my Atlantic 57 that I wish I didn't have to, but wasn't ready for a 3-year design and custom build program, and no other set of compromises in any other boat on the market at the time in my price range looked better. You're right about the awning, I think it's tied to those apparently now-defunct spikey davits. 

ProaSailor - can your wife exit the deep end of the pool without ladder or stairs? Your kids? That's the same move to get on to those sterns without a ladder. 

BTW we added lots of shade to A57 Boundless - aft we copied sistership Cerulean, and forward we made up our own. And we have a tramp awning too, one side with a center drop curtain. All awnings are designed for 40 knots, and work sailing - except the tramp awning which blocks the staysail, though could be used with the genoa.

The Atlantic57 is pretty much the reference I benchmark cats against for my needs. It is my dream boat.

The Atlantic 57 (Bugatti version) It’s also the benchmark I use for what I’d want in my driveway for weekend use.

1936_Bugatti_Type57SCAtlantic3.jpg

Like Cutloose, it has a distinctive rear profile.

4089-12.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, KC375 said:

The Atlantic57 is pretty much the reference I benchmark cats against for my needs. It is my dream boat.

The Atlantic 57 (Bugatti version) It’s also the benchmark I use for what I’d want in my driveway for weekend use.

A simple man, with simple tastes... 

:)

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21 minutes ago, socalrider said:

A simple man, with simple tastes... 

:)

image.thumb.png.ae536446cab6c8e89121e88b7a50abeb.png

My neighbor had one of these in the late 70's, let me drive it for 30 minutes one day - that was fun!!

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26 minutes ago, CapDave said:

image.thumb.png.ae536446cab6c8e89121e88b7a50abeb.png

My neighbor had one of these in the late 70's, let me drive it for 30 minutes one day - that was fun!!

In the words of Road & Track magazine "the greatest crumpet collector known to man".

None other than Enzo Ferrari proclaimed it "the most beautiful car ever built".

The closest I ever got was

151915079566fc8586dfaDSC_0082-940x629.jp

But for a young man in college what more did you need.

Room for my dog (Great Dane) and camping gear. The laser could go on the roof (kind acted like an oversized sun visor).

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Hey, I had an MGB in college too!  Its still in my garage, nearly 50 years later.  

If you're ever in Basel Switzerland cross the border to Mulhouse France and visit the Bugatti Museum.  Its relatively new and has every Bugatti ever built plus scores of other makes from the 19th century right up to the latest million dollar job.   I think they said they have 400 collector cars on display and they have many, many more that rotate in.  I think their marketing said its the largest collection in the world.  Many are drivable.  I'm not a car nut but it was a truly amazing place and a full day just to breeze thru the acres of indoor displays, with English descriptions, too.  If its dry you can drive one around their track for a reasonable amount.   Click the building's picture on the right and thumb through them.

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On 4/28/2020 at 4:39 PM, CapDave said:

image.thumb.png.ae536446cab6c8e89121e88b7a50abeb.png

My neighbor had one of these in the late 70's, let me drive it for 30 minutes one day - that was fun!!

I’ve clocked a couple of miles in a lime green early to mid(?) 60s Jag E-type. As a teenager, a buddy of mine’s dad might as well have been Ferris Buehler’s buddy’s dad.

When the divorce came, dust settled gradually(parents gifting children type of dust) but my buddy’s second car, in his name, was the e-type.

To this day, I can’t believe we rolled around in that car. 

 

 

 

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As an apprentice mechanic, I worked for a Jaguar Dealership and would see the occasional E type in for servicing, sorry although they are iconic cars, they were truly horrible to work on and not a lot better in their road manners with our tuned Mk1 Escorts of the day able to run rings around them in all aspects.  

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1 hour ago, Waynemarlow said:

As an apprentice mechanic, I worked for a Jaguar Dealership and would see the occasional E type in for servicing, sorry although they are iconic cars, they were truly horrible to work on and not a lot better in their road manners with our tuned Mk1 Escorts of the day able to run rings around them in all aspects.  

it's about, always and forever, the crumpet.

Like an old Nic 43 - tragically impractical boat for cruising, but, whew!

Screen Shot 2020-04-30 at 8.15.33 AM.png

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I'm stuck with Soma here in the USVI...………..Dave, have you seen Alan on Skylark?

Soma has been very protective of his dang beer and wine!!!

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20 minutes ago, mpenman said:

I'm stuck with Soma here in the USVI...………..Dave, have you seen Alan on Skylark?

Soma has been very protective of his dang beer and wine!!!

Is there a liquor shortage in the USVI! Oh no!! They actually banned the sale of any alcoholic beverage for the first week of the lockdown here in Grenada, then they allowed off premises...

We've seen Skylark a bunch of times, and chatted with Alan & Liz in Bequia and Woburn and St. George's before the lockdown, they were a bit disappointed to have Pacific plans derailed. They spent the first part of the lockdown near St. George's, and then on the 18th we saw them sail past Woburn and swapped some email, said they were going to hang out at Frigate island near Carriacou. A57 Cerulean is on the hard here in Woburn.

How is your gang coping?? How's the new boat coming?

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We're doing great. Boat still on schedule. Looks like we ALL may be heading back to the NE for the summer.

Groceries have been great here. Just giving Nils a hard time :D

Starting to get warmer. Time to head north.

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On 4/28/2020 at 3:58 AM, KC375 said:

catamaran-cutloose.jpg

 

Practical or not, that's a f*cking stunning picture of a stunning boat. What a creation.

 

While I'm in here, wishing all you guys best of luck and safety with the current situation. Stay safe out there, but don't quarantine yourselves to death either! There's a healthy balance to be found, just like with load carrying and performance in a catamaran.

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7 hours ago, mpenman said:

We're doing great. Boat still on schedule. Looks like we ALL may be heading back to the NE for the summer.

Groceries have been great here. Just giving Nils a hard time :D

Starting to get warmer. Time to head north.

Summer has arrived, sun is north of us now! That said, it's been blowing for weeks and the temps have been very comfortable. I think we might stay in Grenada for the summer, sailing back into 10X - 20X case counts/population and constantly shifting rules state to state, with a foreign-flagged boat no less, doesn't look too attractive. And would also hate to get stuck in the States next winter....I think it's going to be quite some time before these small island nations (or maybe any nation) are going to allow the free movement of yachts - just too hard to police and too low on the priority list for them. 

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1 hour ago, Tylo said:

Practical or not, that's a f*cking stunning picture of a stunning boat. What a creation.

 

While I'm in here, wishing all you guys best of luck and safety with the current situation. Stay safe out there, but don't quarantine yourselves to death either! There's a healthy balance to be found, just like with load carrying and performance in a catamaran.

Agreed it's a fantastic creation, I admire it.

Thanks for the best wishes. Grenada is a small island with 110,000 mostly quite frightened people and they have been very aggressive in trying to stamp out the virus on island while firmly closing the borders - the advantage of an island. The yachties - there are said to be as many as 600 people - have been a bit of a wildcard in that plan, and there have been some rumblings of throwing us all out, especially each time one of us gets caught breaking the rules. I think the healthy balance is to follow the rules of the country in which I'm a guest, and not try to find ways to shade them or cut corners.

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1 hour ago, CapDave said:

Agreed it's a fantastic creation, I admire it.

Thanks for the best wishes. Grenada is a small island with 110,000 mostly quite frightened people and they have been very aggressive in trying to stamp out the virus on island while firmly closing the borders - the advantage of an island. The yachties - there are said to be as many as 600 people - have been a bit of a wildcard in that plan, and there have been some rumblings of throwing us all out, especially each time one of us gets caught breaking the rules. I think the healthy balance is to follow the rules of the country in which I'm a guest, and not try to find ways to shade them or cut corners.

Does the St George's med school provide an improved ability for Grenada to deal with c19 vs. other islands?

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5 hours ago, KC375 said:

Does the St George's med school provide an improved ability for Grenada to deal with c19 vs. other islands?

Hasn't really been making the news here, aside from an item about donating medical supplies. But the President of SGU is an infectious disease specialist, and I have to believe that Nicholas Steele,  Minister of Health, is consulting him. Steele has been really on top of this, and they're obviously looking hard at what other countries have done and trying to adapt the best practices to local circumstances to get best outcomes here. 

SGU hustled all its students off the island back in March - chartered a bunch of planes after the borders were closed and sent them all off.

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32 minutes ago, CapDave said:

Hasn't really been making the news here, aside from an item about donating medical supplies. But the President of SGU is an infectious disease specialist, and I have to believe that Nicholas Steele,  Minister of Health, is consulting him. Steele has been really on top of this, and they're obviously looking hard at what other countries have done and trying to adapt the best practices to local circumstances to get best outcomes here. 

SGU hustled all its students off the island back in March - chartered a bunch of planes after the borders were closed and sent them all off.

I was hopping the students might be available as extra resources (on the job training so to speak) but maybe ability to tap into the staff without them being encumbered by neophytes might even be better.

Hope it works out. Best of luck.

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8 hours ago, CapDave said:

Agreed it's a fantastic creation, I admire it.

Thanks for the best wishes. Grenada is a small island with 110,000 mostly quite frightened people and they have been very aggressive in trying to stamp out the virus on island while firmly closing the borders - the advantage of an island. The yachties - there are said to be as many as 600 people - have been a bit of a wildcard in that plan, and there have been some rumblings of throwing us all out, especially each time one of us gets caught breaking the rules. I think the healthy balance is to follow the rules of the country in which I'm a guest, and not try to find ways to shade them or cut corners.

Of course, I would never encourage breaking rules, but I do think it's important to try and get what changes of environment and physical activity one can within the rules. Not following the recommendations of authorities and people in the know about this stuff is very counter-productive.

I'm stuck here at home in Sweden, our government has had a pretty relaxed approach to the whole thing but somehow we've still managed to plateau at an average of maybe 500 or 600 new cases a day in April. The last 10 days we've even had a downward-trend going, that is, every person who gets Covid passes it on to less than one person on average. I still hope we'll all get this whole thing under control in the summer. I have extensive cruising plans in the Med this autumn, leading up to the ARC, which would be a damn shame to miss...!

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Just now, Rasputin22 said:

Haha that's actually my home town, where I'm at right now.

The 30th of April is a normally a huge party day here, people come from all over the country (and neighboring countries even) to sit in the town's big park and get drunk. I'm pretty sure the population of this city almost doubles during the Walpurgis celebrations.
I think it was a stroke of genius, pesky fences and a few police officers wouldn't have stopped people from going to that celebration but chicken shit did the trick.

It also makes me really happy that this is an international piece of news.  Something to lighten the mood in the world a bit maybe.

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Best of luck to your hometown, let's hope that those hearty Vikings and herd mentality can prove a match for the Covid! 

 

revelers celebrate walpurgis night

 

I'd gladly endure the chickenshit to take a roll with these girls!

 

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Question for the forward cockpit guys - I'm really interested in how traveller and mainsheet controls work/are rigged and what it's like trimming the main from there.

Anyone wanna help me out?

Ta

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31 minutes ago, tp#12 said:

Question for the forward cockpit guys - I'm really interested in how traveller and mainsheet controls work/are rigged and what it's like trimming the main from there.

Anyone wanna help me out?

Ta

You can kind of see one solution to it on this Chris White cat, the main sheet is the big line that runs more diagonally forward (with green arrows pointing to it) and the traveller control is the blue line that hugs the bridgedeck roof (with red arrows pointing to it). I'm guessing this boat has a "German system" for sheeting the main, that is, these controls are mirrored on the starboard side as well. I guess you could say they're sort of run in the reverse of what you'd find on a monohull and leading up to the cockpit sides rather than the aft coaming like on most aft-cockpit cats. I have no idea if this is the best solution, take Gunboat for example, there seem to be all variants of traveller solutions on those. Some have them on the roof, some have them on the aft coaming (new GB68 for example), some have a "dual mainsheet" solution with one sheet leading to each aft quarter. I suspect a lot of the Gunboats have electric traveller controls though, like the one Soma installed on his Outremer 55, but I'm not sure.

image.thumb.png.f2b308de0f584e8a04dde2611eaa64cc.png

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Here's a thread about the Antal Line Driver (the thing I was talking about that I *think* Soma has installed on his Outremer 55):

 

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15 minutes ago, Tylo said:

Here's a thread about the Antal Line Driver (the thing I was talking about that I *think* Soma has installed on his Outremer 55):

 

Ah cool, thank you. I'll have a look.

I'd be keen to see the simplest option available. Which is likely more in line with Cerulean's rig. Seeing more options around that would be instructive.

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27 minutes ago, tp#12 said:

Ah cool, thank you. I'll have a look.

I'd be keen to see the simplest option available. Which is likely more in line with Cerulean's rig. Seeing more options around that would be instructive.

I may have been wrong about what was the main sheet - it might just go forward through the boom and come out at the mast base. Looks to be done that way on both CW48 "Zen" and CW55 "Iron Wing".

Here's the ad for Iron Wing, there are some pretty high res pics (in Google Chrome you can right-click the picture and press "Open image in new tab" and it'll show you the un-cropped image in the original resolution) so it's a bit easier to see. Looks like the traveler control lines go down the side but the main sheet actually goes forward through the boom. The lines going to port and starboard from the boom must just be preventer lines or something like that? I don't know really. On Iron Wing they have dedicated blocks both on the boom and deck so they must be a permanent solution for something.

Have a look: https://multihullcompany.com/boat-details/?catid=7086203

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7 hours ago, Tylo said:

You can kind of see one solution to it on this Chris White cat, the main sheet is the big line that runs more diagonally forward (with green arrows pointing to it) and the traveller control is the blue line that hugs the bridgedeck roof (with red arrows pointing to it). I'm guessing this boat has a "German system" for sheeting the main, that is, these controls are mirrored on the starboard side as well. I guess you could say they're sort of run in the reverse of what you'd find on a monohull and leading up to the cockpit sides rather than the aft coaming like on most aft-cockpit cats. I have no idea if this is the best solution, take Gunboat for example, there seem to be all variants of traveller solutions on those. Some have them on the roof, some have them on the aft coaming (new GB68 for example), some have a "dual mainsheet" solution with one sheet leading to each aft quarter. I suspect a lot of the Gunboats have electric traveller controls though, like the one Soma installed on his Outremer 55, but I'm not sure.

image.thumb.png.f2b308de0f584e8a04dde2611eaa64cc.png

The red arrows point to traveller control line, comes to brake and winch in the cockpit. The green arrows point to the preventer, comes to brake and same winch. The mainsheet runs forward along the boom, down to the mast base, through a brake to port and on to a large electric winch shared with the main halyard. All the same as my boat. The reefing lines all come to the mast base with brakes in the boom - and can be easily led to the smaller utility electric winch to starboard.

It's all pretty easy to use, especially with the main sheet on the electric winch, and the reef lines on an electric winch.

We have Antal line drivers - manual - to control the daggerboards. They are a little bit fussy, but effective. One complaint - to strip, clean, and grease them you have to disturb the fasteners that mount them - not a great design. 

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On 5/2/2020 at 9:59 AM, CapDave said:

The red arrows point to traveller control line, comes to brake and winch in the cockpit. The green arrows point to the preventer, comes to brake and same winch. The mainsheet runs forward along the boom, down to the mast base, through a brake to port and on to a large electric winch shared with the main halyard. All the same as my boat. The reefing lines all come to the mast base with brakes in the boom - and can be easily led to the smaller utility electric winch to starboard.

It's all pretty easy to use, especially with the main sheet on the electric winch, and the reef lines on an electric winch.

We have Antal line drivers - manual - to control the daggerboards. They are a little bit fussy, but effective. One complaint - to strip, clean, and grease them you have to disturb the fasteners that mount them - not a great design. 

Yea multiple people told me to stay away from the Antal line drivers on our tri. The rich and famous like em but if maintaining your own boat maybe not so great. But I have not used myself so it’s all second hand. Only one person ever did recommend them to me. 

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Just had a video walkthrough with the seller of an Outremer 55 Light. He asked me how tall I was and when I answered 6'3" he said he reckoned the boat was too cramped for me. He's 6'0" and finds it barely tolerable. While there is 6'4" headroom in the centre of the saloon it tapers off quickly due to that curved deckhouse. He says he can't even sit at the foreward end of the saloon, under the downward curving roof. Now I've never been aboard a 55 Light, only a 55 Standard which I found acceptable. If I were able to travel I would've already been to view the boat in person, but that's not possible right now. Does anyone (preferably tall!) have any experience of the head room in a 55 Light? I plan to be living aboard this thing for a few years and don't want to step ashore looking like Quasimodo!

Thanks,

Mike

 

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Hey Insolent,

I noticed Barrocka was "Under offer", figured you had bought her seeing that you had posted here. However I think at 6'3 you would have struggled in a Waterline 1480!

I can't offer any advice on O55L headroom, only wish you the best of luck.

 

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Nope, not me, though I wanted to go up and see her now that Queensland travel restrictions have lifted. Too late!

I went aboard another 1480 here in Brisbane and didn’t find it too cramped actually.

Cheers.

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On boats it sucks being tall. Even on our 57, I'm close to the ceiling around the corners but not in the hulls. 

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On 6/5/2020 at 10:15 AM, mpenman said:

On boats it sucks being tall. Even on our 57, I'm close to the ceiling around the corners but not in the hulls. 

I used to work for Ted(s) Hood in the 80’s when they were building their Little Harbor series. The joke was I was the closest to Taiwanese size Ted could find in the US!! I put a lot of miles on a few different 53s, they were fun boats to sail. And being small really did help when it came to keeping all the systems working!

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I hope everyone here is still happy and healthy. The world has been a pretty crazy place since the last post. Figuring that there's no way you can make any plans in these times the missus and I decided f*ck it, lets just get a boat already and take it as it comes! So a few weeks back I made an offer on an Outremer 55 standard and will be aboard for the survey in a couple of weeks! 

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1 hour ago, Insolent said:

I hope everyone here is still happy and healthy. The world has been a pretty crazy place since the last post. Figuring that there's no way you can make any plans in these times the missus and I decided f*ck it, lets just get a boat already and take it as it comes! So a few weeks back I made an offer on an Outremer 55 standard and will be aboard for the survey in a couple of weeks! 

Sweet! Excellent choice. 

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7 hours ago, Insolent said:

I hope everyone here is still happy and healthy. The world has been a pretty crazy place since the last post. Figuring that there's no way you can make any plans in these times the missus and I decided f*ck it, lets just get a boat already and take it as it comes! So a few weeks back I made an offer on an Outremer 55 standard and will be aboard for the survey in a couple of weeks! 

I’m happy to FaceTime while you’re aboard on the survey day if you want a 2nd set of eyes. 

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12 hours ago, Insolent said:

I hope everyone here is still happy and healthy. The world has been a pretty crazy place since the last post. Figuring that there's no way you can make any plans in these times the missus and I decided f*ck it, lets just get a boat already and take it as it comes! So a few weeks back I made an offer on an Outremer 55 standard and will be aboard for the survey in a couple of weeks! 

May I ask where you are located relative to the boat and where you expect to cruise in the next two years? 

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On 11/4/2020 at 8:53 AM, Insolent said:

I hope everyone here is still happy and healthy. The world has been a pretty crazy place since the last post. Figuring that there's no way you can make any plans in these times the missus and I decided f*ck it, lets just get a boat already and take it as it comes! So a few weeks back I made an offer on an Outremer 55 standard and will be aboard for the survey in a couple of weeks! 

Congratulations!!!

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Thanks all. Yeah, I'm pretty stoked! Soma, if the timing works out that would be great, thanks. I'll be staying on the boat for a few days around the survey so even if I can't get you online during the actual survey I can definitely give you a walk around. I'd love to hear what you think.

EarthBM, I'm currently in Australia. I'm in Brisbane (west coast) and the boat is in Perth (east coast). If the survey goes well my plan is to head back over there, spend some time getting her ready and then single hand her back to this side. Its about 2,800nm. Aussie interstate borders have now pretty much opened up so we are free to cruise around here, but initially I'll just be moving aboard with my family and continuing to work here. To be honest, I have no idea where we'll cruise over the next two years. Parts of the Pacific are doable (Fiji, French Polynesia) and Indo is kinda possible with the right connections, which I have from running large yachts over there. My attitude is that you simply can't count on anything right now, so we may as well just get on with doing what we want as much as that is possible. Then when things open up again we'll already have the boat and be ready to go. If that's years away then we'll be happy on our floating home in Oz and do some local cruising. Worst case we've bought an escape pod for when it really hits the fan!

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If you're going to do some Pacific cruising, strongly suggest you get a good GPS and check your charts and maps, as Brisbane is most definitely East coast of Oz whilst Perth is West Coast. Just 'coz we're down-under doesn't mean compass directions are reversed

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:lol: I have just gone out and purchased a chart of Australia and it turns out you´re right!!! :lol:

Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways. I will keep this in mind when attempting to get from Perth back to Brizzie! 

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4 hours ago, Insolent said:

:lol: I have just gone out and purchased a chart of Australia and it turns out you´re right!!! :lol:

Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways. I will keep this in mind when attempting to get from Perth back to Brizzie! 

Well, really you could go either direction. Very different but both good sea voyages. One ~11,000 miles shorter than the other.

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On 11/5/2020 at 8:37 PM, Insolent said:

Thanks all. Yeah, I'm pretty stoked! Soma, if the timing works out that would be great, thanks. I'll be staying on the boat for a few days around the survey so even if I can't get you online during the actual survey I can definitely give you a walk around. I'd love to hear what you think.

EarthBM, I'm currently in Australia. I'm in Brisbane (west coast) and the boat is in Perth (east coast). If the survey goes well my plan is to head back over there, spend some time getting her ready and then single hand her back to this side. Its about 2,800nm. Aussie interstate borders have now pretty much opened up so we are free to cruise around here, but initially I'll just be moving aboard with my family and continuing to work here. To be honest, I have no idea where we'll cruise over the next two years. Parts of the Pacific are doable (Fiji, French Polynesia) and Indo is kinda possible with the right connections, which I have from running large yachts over there. My attitude is that you simply can't count on anything right now, so we may as well just get on with doing what we want as much as that is possible. Then when things open up again we'll already have the boat and be ready to go. If that's years away then we'll be happy on our floating home in Oz and do some local cruising. Worst case we've bought an escape pod for when it really hits the fan!

Wow, if Brisbane is now on the West coast, and Perth on the East, things have really turned upside down in Oz! ;-)

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Yeah, COVID has really turned things upside down over here!

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So I got over to Perth (in WESTern Australia... the clue was in the name all along!) to be onboard during survey. Good thing too: I found a rotten section of structure below the mast step that the surveyor missed. In his defence, I lived aboard for three days and went over every inch of the boat with a fine tooth comb. And in Outremer's defence, even with that soggy bit providing no support there is not a hairline crack in the gelcoat around the mast step and the rig is still tight. It's definitely overbuilt in this area. The rot is actually pretty easy to fix, but the real disappointment was the overall condition of the boat. What is it with these guys that describe their boats as in excellent condition and then you get there to find water in bilges, seized deck hardware, safety equipment all out of date, bilge pumps and nav lights not working, rust everywhere including watermaker HP pump, autopilot pump... The house batteries literally looked like they were about to explode: swollen cases, corroded terminals, and corrosive battery gas covering all the electronics adjacent to the battery compartment. The seller still believes he's asking a fair price and won't budge. Very dissappointing. So I guess I'm still on the hunt.

I had a whatsapp walk around of that Chincogan in Thailand after going aboard one here in Goldie that I loved (sadly not for sale). She's a nice looking boat but the extra weight to comply with Aussie survey worried me so I mailed Tony Grainger about her. He said she's by far the heaviest of the 8 boats built, by somehwere around 1.5 tonnes, which will obviously have a massive impact on performance on a 10 tonne cat. Hard to believe they added that much structure actually. Then of course the broker tried to convince me that I don't really know what I want and that "sailing fast is fun for an hour but when you're cruising with the wife you'll get tired of it". What I will get tired of is motoring whenever there's less than 10 knots of breeze!

Anyone got any experience with Switch 51s?

 

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2 minutes ago, Insolent said:

So I got over to Perth (in WESTern Australia... the clue was in the name all along!) to be onboard during survey. Good thing too: I found a rotten section of structure below the mast step that the surveyor missed. In his defence, I lived aboard for three days and went over every inch of the boat with a fine tooth comb. And in Outremer's defence, even with that soggy bit providing no support there is not a hairline crack in the gelcoat around the mast step and the rig is still tight. It's definitely overbuilt in this area. The rot is actually pretty easy to fix, but the real disappointment was the overall condition of the boat. What is it with these guys that describe their boats as in excellent condition and then you get there to find water in bilges, seized deck hardware, safety equipment all out of date, bilge pumps and nav lights not working, rust everywhere including watermaker HP pump, autopilot pump... The house batteries literally looked like they were about to explode: swollen cases, corroded terminals, and corrosive battery gas covering all the electronics adjacent to the battery compartment. The seller still believes he's asking a fair price and won't budge. Very dissappointing. So I guess I'm still on the hunt.

I had a whatsapp walk around of that Chincogan in Thailand after going aboard one here in Goldie that I loved (sadly not for sale). She's a nice looking boat but the extra weight to comply with Aussie survey worried me so I mailed Tony Grainger about her. He said she's by far the heaviest of the 8 boats built, by somehwere around 1.5 tonnes, which will obviously have a massive impact on performance on a 10 tonne cat. Hard to believe they added that much structure actually. Then of course the broker tried to convince me that I don't really know what I want and that "sailing fast is fun for an hour but when you're cruising with the wife you'll get tired of it". What I will get tired of is motoring whenever there's less than 10 knots of breeze!

Anyone got any experience with Switch 51s?

 

I checked out several in person. One in the Bahamas, one in Ft. Lauderdale, the 55 in Maryland, and Simoust in Grenada. We made a series of offers/counteroffers on Simoust but never made a deal. Good boats, lots of balsa, big differences in layouts between various models. I like them. Sometimes I’ve wondered if Simoust was “the one that got away”. 

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I've yet to get aboard one but like what I've seen so far. I'd read the core was foam though, not balsa. Did you ever get to sail on one? How do you think they'd do against say an O55?

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9 minutes ago, Insolent said:

I've yet to get aboard one but like what I've seen so far. I'd read the core was foam though, not balsa. Did you ever get to sail on one? How do you think they'd do against say an O55?

I sailed on Simoust. She was ok. I reckon she’d be nearly as fast as an Outremer but not as fast. Good bridgedeck clearance which is nice. The deck and coachroof are balsa. Simoust had some squishy spots on deck. I like the option of twin helms aft vs single cabin back helm. 

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14 minutes ago, Insolent said:

So I got over to Perth (in WESTern Australia... the clue was in the name all along!) to be onboard during survey. Good thing too: I found a rotten section of structure below the mast step that the surveyor missed. In his defence, I lived aboard for three days and went over every inch of the boat with a fine tooth comb. And in Outremer's defence, even with that soggy bit providing no support there is not a hairline crack in the gelcoat around the mast step and the rig is still tight. It's definitely overbuilt in this area. The rot is actually pretty easy to fix, but the real disappointment was the overall condition of the boat. What is it with these guys that describe their boats as in excellent condition and then you get there to find water in bilges, seized deck hardware, safety equipment all out of date, bilge pumps and nav lights not working, rust everywhere including watermaker HP pump, autopilot pump... The house batteries literally looked like they were about to explode: swollen cases, corroded terminals, and corrosive battery gas covering all the electronics adjacent to the battery compartment. The seller still believes he's asking a fair price and won't budge. Very dissappointing. So I guess I'm still on the hunt.

I had a whatsapp walk around of that Chincogan in Thailand after going aboard one here in Goldie that I loved (sadly not for sale). She's a nice looking boat but the extra weight to comply with Aussie survey worried me so I mailed Tony Grainger about her. He said she's by far the heaviest of the 8 boats built, by somehwere around 1.5 tonnes, which will obviously have a massive impact on performance on a 10 tonne cat. Hard to believe they added that much structure actually. Then of course the broker tried to convince me that I don't really know what I want and that "sailing fast is fun for an hour but when you're cruising with the wife you'll get tired of it". What I will get tired of is motoring whenever there's less than 10 knots of breeze!

Anyone got any experience with Switch 51s?

 

Like Soma I looked at the Switch boats - a 51 called Niko, the 55 Fantazia, and the successor boat, the Swisscat 56 (?). I thought the 51 was a very rugged boat that likely sails decently. The salon was very short fore and aft, and the second head was hardly worth the name. Seen one frequently this past summer around Grenada, it's really a decent looking boat but we were looking for more interior. They are semi-custom, with some quite startling differences - there is one floating around with an elaborate (and beautiful) timber interior that must weigh a bomb! The 55 was a true one-off, quite quirky. The electrical system was badly misconceived, and the boat overall needed a ton of work to be "nice". Pretty good bones, but a bigger project than I was looking for. The Swisscat I didn't visit, the drawbacks were too obvious just from listing description and pictures. 

So you've discovered the dirty secret of trying to buy boats with all mod cons in this 50-60' size range. They're too much work for people with a day job to look after properly, and such people generally can't afford to pay for crew or for the number of hours of labor otherwise required to keep the boats truly maintained. Result is the boats tend to go down hill in a straight line with age. Occasionally an owner or new buyer will dump a bunch of money in and push them back up the condition ladder. Of course the owner thinks it's brilliantly maintained - he fixed what broke and spent lots of money; but that's not maintenance so much as crisis management. You go up 10 feet and you're in a different category with owners with way more money using crew and professionals, down 10 feet and it's way less work...

There's just no substitute for the constant attention truly required to keep a boat at a high level of function, cleanliness, and state of maintenance in this size range, and it's rare to find a boat in this category that gets it. You just find the best one you can, and grit your teeth and write the check. At least you get to choose the set of problems you start with!

 

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26 minutes ago, soma said:

I checked out several in person. One in the Bahamas, one in Ft. Lauderdale, the 55 in Maryland, and Simoust in Grenada. We made a series of offers/counteroffers on Simoust but never made a deal. Good boats, lots of balsa, big differences in layouts between various models. I like them. Sometimes I’ve wondered if Simoust was “the one that got away”. 

I'm sure you knew that Simoust was basically salvaged? Huge damage and repair job from I forget which hurricane. Pretty basic boat in a bunch of ways too - not sure all this was reflected in the price....Those women were out of money to spend on her....

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Here is the Switch 51 we looked at twice, Neko actually. These folks don't own her anymore. Says foam core with solid glass below the waterline; the guy was pretty technical, so might be accurate

https://svneko.com/the-boat/

I just realized the Switch 51 on Yachtworld is ex-Neko. All those pictures at the dock were taken in Fort Lauderdale where we saw her in February of 2018 - they are not current.

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5 minutes ago, CapDave said:

Here is the Switch 51 we looked at twice, Neko actually. These folks don't own her anymore. Says foam core with solid glass below the waterline; the guy was pretty technical, so might be accurate

https://svneko.com/the-boat/

Thanks for the info guys. This is actually the boat I'm looking at and have also been told it is foam cored, with solid layup below the waterline. Maybe, as with the interior layouts, helm configurations etc, there were a variety of core options...? Neko has had a lot of work done on her over the last year or so, with a lot of new equipment too.

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CapDave I partially agree with your explanation of maintenance, or lack thereof, on these boats. But most people that own a boat of this size have a modicum of common sense and organisational skill... even if you're not going to do every routine maintenance job on time, at least keep a record of what you DO do!!! I mean, few people would you buy a 12 year old car without a maintenance record so you're being pretty dumb if you don't see that some sort of log is an asset when it comes to selling your boat.

 

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3 hours ago, Insolent said:

CapDave I partially agree with your explanation of maintenance, or lack thereof, on these boats. But most people that own a boat of this size have a modicum of common sense and organisational skill... even if you're not going to do every routine maintenance job on time, at least keep a record of what you DO do!!! I mean, few people would you buy a 12 year old car without a maintenance record so you're being pretty dumb if you don't see that some sort of log is an asset when it comes to selling your boat.

 

Don’t disagree, but I’ve been buying and selling sailboats since 1975, and that belief in prior owners would be the triumph of hope over experience. Of course YMMV, please do let us all know how you get on. 

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10 hours ago, CapDave said:

I'm sure you knew that Simoust was basically salvaged? Huge damage and repair job from I forget which hurricane. Pretty basic boat in a bunch of ways too - not sure all this was reflected in the price....Those women were out of money to spend on her....

Yeah, two hurricanes damaged her. She ended up against a sea wall in St. Martin after a “minor” hurricane and got dismasted and fell off her jack stands in Irma. The structural repairs looked good. The mast was new. I loved the bright interior and it had the best layout of any Switch that I had seen. The deal didn’t come together because they didn’t want to discount for the checkered past. They ended up selling for their (reduced) asking price to someone else. 

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I’d strongly consider a Catana again if I was shopping. We contracted a 472 that I loved...but horribly failed the survey. With that said, they are good boats and reasonably fast. The one we contracted was WAY too nice for our kids...we would’ve destroyed the nice cherry interior, but your crowd may be more respectful than our 3 & 5 yr old boys. The minimalist Formica interior suits us well on our Outremer. 
 

Edit: we also had headroom issues on the Catana, my wife is almost 6’2”. 

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4 hours ago, soma said:

With that said, they are good boats and reasonably fast.

Would you agree that Catanas, but really all cruising cats with cruising loads, don’t really sail above hull speed in the real world? And therefore a comparable $$ 60-70ft mono is just as fast or faster in most conditions. 
 

This still leaves comfort at anchor and shallower draft in favor of cats, to be weighed against capsizability* and difficulty finding berths. 
 

(*I really don’t want to start the sinking monos vs capsizing multis sh*tshow, but the number of lost keels or sunk monos as % of boats in the water is probably lower than the number of capsizes)

With that said, TS42s did well in this year’s ARC, way better than hull speed. But they are not Catanas and we’re probably pushing.

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14 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Would you agree that Catanas, but really all cruising cats with cruising loads, don’t really sail above hull speed in the real world? And therefore a comparable $$ 60-70ft mono is just as fast or faster in most conditions. 
 

This still leaves comfort at anchor and shallower draft in favor of cats, to be weighed against capsizability* and difficulty finding berths. 
 

(*I really don’t want to start the sinking monos vs capsizing multis sh*tshow, but the number of lost keels or sunk monos as % of boats in the water is probably lower than the number of capsizes)

With that said, TS42s did well in this year’s ARC, way better than hull speed. But they are not Catanas and we’re probably pushing.

My fully loaded Atlantic 57 would absolutely sail rings around my old Oyster 61 on every point of sail in all conditions. Roughly comparable prices. I guess a Catana 581/582 would be the comp there, I haven't sailed one. 

I used to run a Little Harbor 75, she would reach at 11 knots all day. My cat would beat her for sure. And that LH75 is multiples of purchase and maintenance costs.....

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Personally I would think that a 70' mono may be faster than a Catana but the comfort level is another world all together.

Cats are just as uncomfortable upwind as monos but are not leaning over. Downwind is another world altogether. The cat will sit flat and slide along in comfort. The mono will pitch and roll as the swells move under her unless she is a lightweight race boat that is on the step.

The reality is if you are cruising you are not going upwind so it is all about downwind sailing.

Unless you are planning on doing a lap of the Southern Ocean the cat will be a way better choice.

Also note that although cruising cats can capsize the likelihood of dying is very small. Well designed cats are very stable and safe upside down. 

 

 

14 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Would you agree that Catanas, but really all cruising cats with cruising loads, don’t really sail above hull speed in the real world? And therefore a comparable $$ 60-70ft mono is just as fast or faster in most conditions. 
 

This still leaves comfort at anchor and shallower draft in favor of cats, to be weighed against capsizability* and difficulty finding berths. 
 

(*I really don’t want to start the sinking monos vs capsizing multis sh*tshow, but the number of lost keels or sunk monos as % of boats in the water is probably lower than the number of capsizes)

With that said, TS42s did well in this year’s ARC, way better than hull speed. But they are not Catanas and we’re probably pushing.

 

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5 minutes ago, CapDave said:

I guess a Catana 581/582 would be the comp there, I haven't sailed one. 

The owner of one 582 I made an offer on admitted that 8-8.5kt is the typical cruising speed. MarineTraffic AIS data kind of confirms — look up any cat out there and it’s single digit speeds. A certain cat named Boundless shows 9.5kt max / 7.2kt average.

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5 hours ago, soma said:

I’d strongly consider a Catana again if I was shopping. We contracted a 472 that I loved...but horribly failed the survey. With that said, they are good boats and reasonably fast. The one we contracted was WAY too nice for our kids...we would’ve destroyed the nice cherry interior, but your crowd may be more respectful than our 3 & 5 yr old boys. The minimalist Formica interior suits us well on our Outremer. 
 

Edit: we also had headroom issues on the Catana, my wife is almost 6’2”. 

Hmmm honestly I've never been a big fan... Hahaha yeah I know what you mean about nice interiors... my 2 and 6 year olds are together a pretty destructive force themsleves! And I´m 6'3".

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37 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

The owner of one 582 I made an offer on admitted that 8-8.5kt is the typical cruising speed. MarineTraffic AIS data kind of confirms — look up any cat out there and it’s single digit speeds. A certain cat named Boundless shows 9.5kt max / 7.2kt average.

Remember that MarineTraffic has to get its data from somewhere....it can't be everywhere. AIS is a VHF based device with limited range - so there's a lot, a lot, of sailing going on outside MarineTraffic's data gathering capability. 

We recently sailed from Carriacou to Antigua, covering 274nm in 29 hours anchor to anchor. During that period we frequently sailed at 11-13 knots, and hit 15 a few times. We motored at 7 knots for about 3 hours total in the wind holes behind the taller islands. Realistically we came close to a 9.5 knot average while under sail, stripping out the departure/arrival maneuvering time and the motoring time. True wind was mostly 10-15, at about 85-95 degrees. AWS ran into the mid-20's, with AWA at 55 to 65. This is all real world data, and I have the ship's log to back it up.

I stick to my own personal experience - that would be at least 1.5 or 2  knots faster than my Oyster and at least 0.5 knots faster than the LH 75.

It's important to remember that non-professionals sailing two-handed are very rarely going to extract maximum performance from any boat. Not racing, and not in your armchair watching youtube, your priorities are a bit different. You want to be comfortable, you want to not break anything, you don't want to jump up every few minutes and trim sails or change sails, etc., etc. Cruising reality isn't like a stripped out cat sailing with one hull out....

Edit - I sharpened my pencil a little on the Carriacou to Grenada trip. We sailed 253nm (subtracting the 21 motoring miles) over 25 hours (subtracting the 3 motoring hours and 1 maneuvering hour). So that's 10 knots average sailing....

Edited by CapDave
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1 hour ago, EarthBM said:

The owner of one 582 I made an offer on admitted that 8-8.5kt is the typical cruising speed. MarineTraffic AIS data kind of confirms — look up any cat out there and it’s single digit speeds. A certain cat named Boundless shows 9.5kt max / 7.2kt average.

I would not put too much weight on Marine Traffic speeds... the 140 foot sloop that I run rarely sits on less than 11 knots and we regularly do 13-15 knots under sail, yet Marine Traffic says our average is 6.2 knots!

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1 hour ago, Insolent said:

I’d strongly consider a Catana again if I was shopping. We contracted a 472 that I loved

Do you know the difference between the 470, 471 and 472? Then there's the "Ocean Class" 47... kinda hoping they'd all be "ocean class!"

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1 hour ago, CapDave said:

So that's 10 knots average sailing....

57 LWL = 10.2kt hull speed. And that was on a comfortable reach.

And yeah, one might be more comfortable leaving more canvas up in a mono, knowing it will just heel more in a gust, so the same hull speed can be had without fear, or reefing for gusts. 

4 minutes ago, Insolent said:

Do you know the difference between the 470, 471 and 472? Then there's the "Ocean Class" 47... kinda hoping they'd all be "ocean class!"

4 minutes ago, Insolent said:

Not sure about 470, or even if there is such a model. 472 is 471 with nicer cosmetics, like a metal strip on the cabin door step that says “Colligo” (and possibly optional carbon bits like a longeron instead of bowsprit, but 471s can have it too).

47 OC is a newer, heavier 471/472 with bigger windows.

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12 minutes ago, Insolent said:

Do you know the difference between the 470, 471 and 472? Then there's the "Ocean Class" 47... kinda hoping they'd all be "ocean class!"

I think, and Paolo can correct me, that the 471 was the base model, the 472 was the luxury version. The Ocean Class replaced the 472 as the luxury version. There were luxuries beyond just better wood, too, IIRC. I don’t know about the 470. 
 

I also would agree that most cats are slower than you’d hope/expect. A mono could keep up depending on point of sail. But to add to the “monos suck” debate, we have spent the last couple days here in Carriacou watching all the monohulls around us trying to get their side-to anchor bridles set up, then adjusted with each wind shifts, now that the north swell has returned. On a cat we are relatively immune to the rock and rolling. Plus...heeling is just so weird! If we decide to go sail, we unzip the sail cover, close the portholes, and drop the mooring. On a monohull you have to secure EVERYTHING! 

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Don't want to start a new thread so I will ask here.

Vinyl Ester vs Polyester construction? 
How bad is Polyester really?

I narrowed down my search to Nautitech 46 Open vs Balance 442.
Nautitech is constructed in Polyster just like Outremer, Lagoons, Leopards, FPs
Balance 442 is made from Vinyl ester just like Marsaudon, Seawind

The information I read online make it sound like Polyster is a horrible choice.
But is it really that bad? there are many Outremers that circulated the world just fine.
The goal with the boat is to circumnavigate for 3-4 years. 

 

 

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I have no sources for this but I think modern polyester (especially the ones called "isophthalic" I think) is a lot better than old polyester, both in strength and chemical resistance.

Also, you could do a barrier coat of epoxy outside of your polyester which should help with osmosis resistance as well.

I just feel like there are so, so many polyester boats out there that it can't be a "bad" material as such. It's just not as good as vinyl or epoxy but then it costs a lot less too. I believe Nautitech is owned by Bavaria which means they should have production down to a T and be able to source good raw materials. There are so many of these boats sailing. Like half the entrants to the ARC 2019 were what most would probably consider "lesser" boats like Bavarias, Beneteaus, Dufours and so on, so obviously they are capable of crossing big bodies of water. There was a Nautitech 46 Open on the entrants list for that ARC as well.

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6 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

“Mini keels”

In my subjective list of “must-haves” daggerboards are in the top 3.

But then I sometimes remember that in my Dragonfly 35 I just left the board down all the time. And in another experience, I lost a mini keel by hitting a rock in a cat by not zooming in enough into the chart.
 

so in practical terms - do people raise/lower boards all the time?

 

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8 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

do people raise/lower boards all the time?

We sure did. Fully up downwind in light winds for minimal wetted surface area. 1/4 downwind in bigger seas to help tracking. 1/2 down while reaching in big seas, all the way down when sailing to windward. 

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7 hours ago, EarthBM said:

so in practical terms - do people raise/lower boards all the time?

Yeah, I store them max up (flush with the hull) when at rest to keep growth to a minimum. Then I normally set them to the course and wind speed for the day. Then sky them again at the end of the sail. 

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