NOCALSAILOR

Cat tails from over the horizon

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To follow along from Soma's thread searching for a quick cruising cat.  My wife and I looked at many of the similar cats. Long story short she wanted a Catana 471 and I wanted something faster, Outremer, Schionning, etc. we could not decide so we suck with what we know and bought a monomaran (sundeer 60). So we sailed down the West coast of North America, across the Pacific and through Polynesia.  I am still searching for a cat as the Sundeer was not my first choice, but it got us out on the water as soon as possible. Don't get me wrong the Sundeer is a great boat for two people, but with two kids some aspects are not set up with kids in mind. 

 

Back to catamarans and what I observed on my trip so far. I sailed in the Baha ha cruise with a few cats: Hughes 63, Atlantic cat 57, Outremer 55 light, Catana 471,  Fairer 44. In the Ha ha we had 5-15 knots down wind.  In the light wind the three big cats went about the same speed. As the wind came up the Atlantic was gone in the distance. It had lots of go fast bits carbon battens( that broke twice) big square top main and large vmg kite. The Hughes was about the same speed as us 9 knots VMG on AIS or a bit faster as the breeze built, it had 14 people and a ton of gear onboard. The Outremer 55 was slower all the time even with a code sail and vmg kite.  All these boats had some load on them for the winter cruising season in Mex. The 471 and Farrier are slower in all conditions. The 471 that my wife likes seems expensive in the $350- 450 range. Many had mildew in the interior wood under the varnish. That and the bulkhead issue was enough for me to never buy one.

Once in Tahiti I have seen more cats to compare. I talked to a cool Dutch lady that had a Outremer 50 in the past and then down sized to a Grainger 40 tri she built. She mentioned that the older Outremer would twist in a sea. A Outremer 51 sailed the same 2900 nautical miles as us on the Sundeer 60 across the Pacific in 16 days. So fairly close speed assuming similar conditions.

In French Poly there are lots of Loopings 48,52,56,60. I visited a Looping 52 that was diy built as most are. The hulls are not fair, but the guy built it in 1 yr and is out sailing. He said it cost 160K Euro to get it rigged and on the water. The Frenchman also said he sailed at easy 8-10 knots downwind in the trades with a small amount of sail out.  The Looping 60 is on a mooring in Tahiti and still for sale. It is the only Looping with dagger boards and tillers. I didn't get close enough to see actual condition. The Loopings are cool boats simple interior with Cedar strip hulls, fairly light 9 tons for a 52 footer. The one thing about the Loopings is the plywood beams gave me some pause. There are a few other custom cats around, but no information to report. 

 

What do people think about cedar strip core fiberglass and epoxy hulls?  To me they are a bit heavier than foam, but a cheaper option that will last better than balsa. Cedar strip is quick to build.

 

As for me I will continue to sail downwind towards NZ and see what I find.   

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Good luck with your search. I'm glad my search is over. I seatrialed the Outremer 55 that we have under contract last week and I was pleasantly surprised by the performance. We were doing 9's in about 12 knots of breeze reaching. That was good enough for me. Time will tell, though. It was an easy decision based on the price in comparison to what else is available. The boat had sailed across the Atlantic and Pacific and signs of structural issues. The decision is sitting well for me  

I'm sure there are better boat's out there, but my search is over. Now I have to delete my Yachtworld and FSBO bookmarks!

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Congrats! Good luck with her.  Much of a refit needed or ready to go?

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1 hour ago, NOCALSAILOR said:

As for me I will continue to sail downwind towards NZ and see what I find.   

The Chris White Atlantic 55 "Segue" seems like a great boat at a good price. It's been on the market forever but the price is "firm". I don't get that, but anyway...

I guess it's not really on your route, though. 

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2 hours ago, soma said:

Good luck with your search. I'm glad my search is over. I seatrialed the Outremer 55 that we have under contract last week and I was pleasantly surprised by the performance. We were doing 9's in about 12 knots of breeze reaching. That was good enough for me. Time will tell, though. It was an easy decision based on the price in comparison to what else is available. The boat had sailed across the Atlantic and Pacific and signs of structural issues. The decision is sitting well for me  

I'm sure there are better boat's out there, but my search is over. Now I have to delete my Yachtworld and FSBO bookmarks!

I'm happy to hear that you found a boat that feels right. Too bad that "Over the horizon" will be over. It was fun and interesting to follow.

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7 hours ago, soma said:

Good luck with your search. I'm glad my search is over. I seatrialed the Outremer 55 that we have under contract last week and I was pleasantly surprised by the performance. We were doing 9's in about 12 knots of breeze reaching.

Glad to hear you have found a boat. It can be quite a long road at times to get a boat.  When you talked of the speed it reminded me that I had met another Outremer 55 standard in the Marquesas. This is not a strike against Outremer as I think this issue could be on any cat, but the gusset plate inside the forward beam that the forestay attached to was pulling through the beam extrusion.  The gusset and the weld were ok, but the metal outside the weld was hard from the welding heat I think. Good thing it was down wind to Tahiti from there! I do recall the owner saying he delivered the boat from Texas to Columbia in 10 days of up wind in 20- 25 knots. With 9-12 knots boat speed. That would pull things apart for sure. He said he would not sail that fast up wind anymore and tries for 8 knots when it gets lumpy.

Question for you Soma. Can you feel the Gunboat 62/66 flex or twist? Is this normal for big cats.  

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7 hours ago, soma said:

The boat had sailed across the Atlantic and Pacific and signs of structural issues.

I hope there is a "no" you missed in that sentence!

Paul 

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The cross beam story on the Outremer got me thinking. When looking at 20 yr old cats, quite a few had corrosion on the aluminium cross beams. All I kept thinking was that the beam is going to cost a lot and be a pain in the butt to repair or replace. So much so that now I am looking for cats with composite front beams. Infact, composite everything stanchions, lifelines, chainplates, etc..  

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6 hours ago, NOCALSAILOR said:

What do people think about cedar strip core fiberglass and epoxy hulls?  To me they are a bit heavier than foam, but a cheaper option that will last better than balsa. Cedar strip is quick to build.

I was selling boat building materials in the 70s/80s during the Aus boom in home built boats.  Experienced pretty much all methods except ferro cement and steel. Then built a bunch of ply and strip planked hulls while developing harryproas.     Cedar strip was by far the most popular; quicker and easier than double diagonal, better looking, lighter and quicker than ply, way cheaper and easier than foam, especially if the foam was vacuumed, which it should be to maximise the glass/foam bond and minimise the resin.  

This all changed when we asked Derek Kelsall to do a couple of KSS workshops. A dozen of us attended, 3 of them were long time cedar strip professional builders.   Everybody was blown away.  To produce a gel coated, 15m/50' long, 2m/6.6' wide panel for a half hull in a day of non messy work was an eye opener.  Less impressed the following day when it had to be cut, glassed and faired to get the below water shape, but still a huge improvement over conventional methods.  The rest of the boat used conventional techniques.  We built on this system and came up with Intelligent Infusion, which puts almost everything (rebates, joins, doublers, solids, reinforcing, bulkhead landings, stringers, ring frames, rudder, mast and beam holes and beefing up) on the table or in cheap moulds before resin is mixed.   Each component is perfectly wet out in about an hour, no one gets sticky, waste is minimised, resin fibre ratios of about half what hand laminating achieves.  The components are then glued together.  No cutting or grinding of cured laminate, no secondary glassing, minimal bogging and fairing.  Same for the interior, including bulkheads with doors so the fit is perfect, with no edge finishing required.

A hand laid foam/glass boat will be theoretically lighter than a cedar one, but experience showed there was little difference.  A vac bagged or infused foam/glass hull will be lighter, if the foam is perfectly cut and heated to conform to the hull.  This is fussy work on hulls with compound curvature, simple on flat panels.  A production foam/glass boat will almost always be heavier as the foam will be double cut which takes a lot of resin or bog to fill and the laminators are not always as careful as home builders.  

An infused hull these days will be considerably cheaper than a strip planked one, at least in Australia.  The C60 harryproa has a laminate of 1200 glass/30mm H80 foam/600 glass.  The glass costs $US3.000 per kg/$1.40 per lb, the foam $US30 per sq m/$2.80 per sq' and the infusion epoxy $US per kg/$4.50 per lb.  Plus another ~$US1.00 for the infusion materials (peel ply, bag, spiral).  About $47 per sq m.   Not sure the current cost of cedar, but we switched to paulonia which was lighter, cheaper, less toxic and more rot proof.  Rough sawn, 25mm thick is $AUS75/$US53 per sq m.  Plus glass, filling and fairing.

If you are serious about buying a performance cat, I suggest you duck over to Brisbane while you are in NZ as there is a wider variety and more of them. 

Aluminium on a cruising boat is the same as rigging and non kick up rudders and daggerboards.  Accidents looking for a place to happen.  

 

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3 hours ago, NOCALSAILOR said:

The cross beam story on the Outremer got me thinking. When looking at 20 yr old cats, quite a few had corrosion on the aluminium cross beams. All I kept thinking was that the beam is going to cost a lot and be a pain in the butt to repair or replace. So much so that now I am looking for cats with composite front beams. Infact, composite everything stanchions, lifelines, chainplates, etc..  

I wouldn't expect a forward beam to be very expensive. Not cheap...but not outrageous. A finished carbon boom is ~$20k. I wouldn't expect a forward beam to cost much more. 

4 hours ago, NOCALSAILOR said:

Question for you Soma. Can you feel the Gunboat 62/66 flex or twist? Is this normal for big cats.  

Yeah. There is a lot of cracking inside the 62/66's. The coachroof window mullions, the ring frames, etc all have cracks. 

I was pleasantly surprised by how stiff the O55 was actually. We maxed out at about 15 knots of wind, but the leeward shroud was still tight(ish). Maybe earlier versions were softer?

4 hours ago, toolbar said:

I hope there is a "no" you missed in that sentence!

Paul 

Oops. Yup!

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Just realize you wrote 9 in 12 on a reach.  Presumably when empty.  That is surprising.

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13 minutes ago, Wess said:

Just realize you wrote 9 in 12 on a reach.  Presumably when empty.  That is surprising.

Full fuel, water, black water, dinghy, spare outboard, a generator I'll be ditching, lots of spares and personal stuff!

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Silly (prior) owner.  That ain't how to do a sea trial.

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Lot higher loads on a forward crossbeam that a boom I would venture to say. Congrats on the decision SOMA. What is up with your F40?

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There's a couple with a 35'-ish Crowther that had a corroded forward crossbeam, they just bought a used boom off a bigger boat that kinda matched their crossbeam in material thickness and profile, cut it to size and replaced their crossbeam with that. Might work for bigger cats with aluminium forward crossbeams as well? If so a replacement wouldn't necessarily put an enormous dent in the budget, or at least not one as big as having something custom made. Rasputin you might be right though, I have no experience with it so wouldn't know personally, just throwing the idea out there.

Soma I'm glad to hear the sea trials went well for you!

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

Lot higher loads on a forward crossbeam that a boom I would venture to say.

Not from what I've seen from quotes. Also, every forward crossbeam has weighed less than the boom (in my experience). Ultimately the weight of prepreg carbon is the biggest driver in cost. A nice longeron is a little higher in cost than a boom. 

What is up with your F40?

1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

Yes. 

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20 hours ago, NOCALSAILOR said:

I talked to a cool Dutch lady that had a Outremer 50 in the past and then down sized to a Grainger 40 tri she built. She mentioned that the older Outremer would twist in a sea.

That would be Yana? http://trimaranyana.blogspot.com/ Definitely a cool tri. I didn't realize that they had already gone that far.

Paul

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On 8/11/2019 at 5:44 AM, soma said:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2008/chris-white-atlantic-57-alwoplast-3573095/

 

This looks like a great boat. Not a huge backtrack for you. 

I was on a 55 earlier this year. Nice boats, but I don't like the large forward cockpit/small rear cockpit design personally. And centerboards is a no go for me.

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On 8/11/2019 at 12:27 AM, harryproa said:

 

If you are serious about buying a performance cat, I suggest you duck over to Brisbane while you are in NZ as there is a wider variety and more of them. 

 

 

Thanks for the insight on material costs. I am making my way towards NZ, but having fun in the atolls for this season. I am going to look for a boat over cyclone season. Maybe fly over from NZ to see boats in Aus.

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8 hours ago, NOCALSAILOR said:

I was on a 55 earlier this year. Nice boats, but I don't like the large forward cockpit/small rear cockpit design personally. And centerboards is a no go for me.

Why the adversity to cb’s?  Sounded like (original post) everything you were looking at had them?  Or did I misunderstand.

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I hear there's a busted up Outremer 51 in Raiatea.

 

Just joking. Poor "Archer". 

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     Just topped off the diesel yesterday on my “barge” St Francis 44 after a month race/cruise in New England’s cool water escaping the oppressive heat and brown soup water that is New Jersey in July. Not very adventurous but got the job done and checked out the latest mods prior to spending some time in the Bahamas this winter,

    Some numbers:-  

    On the 160 mile Atlantis Highland Fling race to Block Island we beat a well sailed Dragonfly 1000 boat for boat by 1 hour 20 minutes, sailed 181.6 miles through the water at 7.1 knots average.

   Used 20.5 gallons on fuel whilst covering 687 miles for the entire trip.

   Total (both) engine run time was 68 hours, including around 10 hours battery charging at anchor. We rarely ran both engines simultaneously, under way, probably 53 of the 58 hours underway were under the single, leeward engine motor sailing at around 6 knots or about 320 of the total miles logged. Not a lot of wind up there this time of year.

   17,500 pound, cruising, low aspect keeled, catamaran with a decent bottom finish.

   Any good for this forum purpose?

 

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1 hour ago, boardhead said:

     Just topped off the diesel yesterday on my “barge” St Francis 44 after a month race/cruise in New England’s cool water escaping the oppressive heat and brown soup water that is New Jersey in July. Not very adventurous but got the job done and checked out the latest mods prior to spending some time in the Bahamas this winter,

    Some numbers:-  

    On the 160 mile Atlantis Highland Fling race to Block Island we beat a well sailed Dragonfly 1000 boat for boat by 1 hour 20 minutes, sailed 181.6 miles through the water at 7.1 knots average.

   Used 20.5 gallons on fuel whilst covering 687 miles for the entire trip.

   Total (both) engine run time was 68 hours, including around 10 hours battery charging at anchor. We rarely ran both engines simultaneously, under way, probably 53 of the 58 hours underway were under the single, leeward engine motor sailing at around 6 knots or about 320 of the total miles logged. Not a lot of wind up there this time of year.

   17,500 pound, cruising, low aspect keeled, catamaran with a decent bottom finish.

   Any good for this forum purpose?

 

Being really honest here... think its much better than the tri (for the purpose) and that it would sell much faster and higher as well.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Being really honest here... think its much better than the tri (for the purpose) and that it would sell much faster and higher as well.

Totally different boat for a different time in my life. No interest in selling the St Francis, perfect fit for this 67 year old, spent more than a decade making her that way.

Will be sailing Skateaway on the Bay this coming weekend but never cruising and racing her with my wife and family again, been there, done that but lacking the stamina now. Still fabulous for an afternoon blast, fortunate enough to have both toys.

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8 hours ago, sushi said:

Why the adversity to cb’s?  Sounded like (original post) everything you were looking at had them?  Or did I misunderstand.

CB and dagger board are different. CB pivots on a pin and dagger goes up and down.

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How do you find the St Francis 44 bridge deck clearance? Like a lot of earlier S.African boats it always seemed low.

 

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56 minutes ago, NOCALSAILOR said:

CB and dagger board are different. CB pivots on a pin and dagger goes up and down.

Doh,   please excuse..  just purchased my first cat.

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5 hours ago, Zonker said:

How do you find the St Francis 44 bridge deck clearance? Like a lot of earlier S.African boats it always seemed low.

 

Can’t have your cake and eat it! Low windage you get low bridge deck clearance - high bridge deck clearance and up goes the windage - take your pick! 

My St Francis is an early build and when I bought her she was equipped with everything including the kitchen sink with damn all underwing clearance. I hauled her out and did a quick underwater clean up, ordered some new sails and headed south for the sun in mid December, breaking the ice all the way down the lagoon and out to sea. The options were not as numerous back then, I liked the way she looked and all I had read. In a decent, sustained, northwesterly we actually made pretty quick progress “thunderously surfing” along, the bridge deck sat atop the convergent bow waves. Upwind, particularly with the rag sails included, she was even louder. Anyway we had two decent winters in the Bahamas and she sat in Miami in the summer heat. On the run back up north we were out in some pretty serious stuff which she took in her stride and in spite of some, at times, alarming wing deck flexure nothing broke. 

So craning her ashore for a serious refit I never intended that it would get as involved as it did and the smart money would have been to cut my losses and buy something else but still liking a bunch of features and finding no structural shortcomings I just waded in. The refit took thirteen years!

I cut out and raised the aft wing deck nine inches, ground off all the gel coat - underwater, topsides, deck - all of it. Ground off all the excessive under deck laminate inside the boat - bow to stern. Added a compact, stiff spine under the wing deck with uni bands inside. Removed every single fitting, hatch, forward crossbeam and properly reinforced every bolt hole and aperture the way production boats never are. Took off the 112 pound swim platform and fitted a 20 pound replacement, a stiffer one.

Tossed the ac, freezer, gen set, immersion water heater, washing machine (yeah there was a washing machine in the cockpit), bow holding tanks, 2 x 45 gallon diesel tanks in favor of 1 x 25, all the bronze winches for racing alloys, the shore power, chargers, inverters, heavy, amp sucking old generation electronics, three batteries, incandescent lights and pulled and rebuilt the 18 hp saildrive diesels top to bottom.

When craned back in she floated five inches higher on her lines so with the surgery the bridge deck is  fourteen inches higher and a lot stiffer than it was.

Now I like the boat - a lot - you asked!!!

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Whoa. That's a lot of effort - but 5" on that size of boat is about 4-5000 lbs of weight off.

 

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It was an insane amount of work, more than Skateaway from scratch - nuts!

At the relevant immersion depth it's on the lower end of that range - two tons - I was well pleased at the result.

The leeward hull now runs full waterline length with clean flow off the non immersed transom when powered up - higher than static when I bought her. An expensive route and lesson learned - buy a basic boat and only add what is needed for your purposes.

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On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 11:44 AM, soma said:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2008/chris-white-atlantic-57-alwoplast-3573095/

 

This looks like a great boat. Not a huge backtrack for you. 

They must want it gone fairly quickly. I have an A57 and can vouch that they sail very well and are easily single-handed. I thought it was originally another 57 that is based on the West Coast.

I agree with Soma that the older 55 outremers are fast boats. In fact wicked fast. They're also good looking (IMHO). Soma, congrats in your purchase. Hope to catch up in Newport before you head off somewhere.

Get good deck clearance, even an extra foot makes a difference. We get almost zero underwing slamming, but in our St Francis 48, we got a ton.

I'm of the opine that when you sail faster you enjoy it far more. The other benefit that absolutely escapes me when talking with unimaraners is anchoring. The cats get into better spots, sit way, way better in a fetch and are far more comfortable at anchor. I'm amazed at the rolling going on when there is a boat wake..

Then there is the ability to go full solar and enjoy being totally off the grid all together.

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Love that 60 foot Oram, although it can probably be a really expensive boat to have in many parts of the world when you can't anchor out for free but have to pay per foot in a marina or ON a laid mooring.

I noticed it yesterday when I inadvertently clicked on the wrong button (one size up) on Yachthub.  Price seems OK for what you get. 

Paul 

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I own a Chris White Atlantic 57, Boundless, bought her in December in Florida and 3,300 miles later we are just wrapping up a circumnavigation of Newfoundland and getting ready to head back from Cape Race to Halifax and on to the Caribbean. We looked at every relevant Catana, Outremer, and Chris White cat that was around for over two years before pulling the trigger. I did a delivery from Nanny Cay to Little Creek VA on Outremer 51 Archer (in prior ownership), great design. We looked hard at Outremer 55s as well, but couldn't see living aboard as our only home. We were onboard Atlantic 55 Segue (before the much-needed refit), and onboard Iron Wing (the A55 for sale in FL now - BTW she has daggers, not centerboards as the other A55s do). We heard about the San Diego A57 linked above and tried to see her, but she wasn't really for sale yet at the time. In the end the sailing performance, living space, and protection of the pilothouse on the A57 persuaded us. Not sure how the OP gets "small aft cockpit" or "centerboard" for these A57 boats? Our aft cockpit is 6'8" X 16'8" on floor space alone, plus the seating. And we have asymmetric high lift daggerboards; I think all the A57s do. 

I'm talking my book here, but I have to say the boat can really sail. It's not just the flat out speed when any boat should go fast - it's the light air performance that keeps you sailing after others are motoring; really a pleasure.

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7 hours ago, Zonker said:

It's like a grown up G32!

I'm a big fan of the Oram designs. He likes flat panel construction, narrow boats with small rigs, and lots of waterline length.

I went up the Mary river to Maryborough to meet Bob when I was cruising Queensland. I was still recovering from getting nailed by a really big breaker while crossing the Wide Bay bar, but cruising up the Great Sandy Straights and up the Mary river was good. Maryborough and meeting Bob was really cool. Would be great to find a source for lines and photos of Oram designs.

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I am making a similar jump "Over the Horizon" with a budget around 600k, but may stretch it for the right rig. I am a firm believer in buy once-cry once, especailly when it comes to things that float. 

After reading and checking out some of the local boats here in MD and FL i have ultimatley narrowed my search to a forward cockpit catamaran. I am leaning towards a Chris White but cant decide between the 47/48/55. A majority of my sailing will be done with a crew of 2, myself and my other half who has very little blue water sailing experience. Space is less of a concern, but safety, comfort, and speed are critical. Is that an oxymoron? Can i only choose 2 of the 3 "critical" wants?

Capdave and Soma did you ever look at Barricuda X - the 47 mastfoil? It seems like it has been on the market for a long time now, with a few reductions in price. It looks like an excellent vessel that checks all my boxes, except one - the mastfoils. What was your opinion on the mastfoils? Did you ever get it into any real wind? In theory I like the design, and safety that comes with it, but am fearful it gives up to much performance. I would love to get some real world feedback on its performance in varing conditions. I love the openess, "boat age", and lines on Barrricua in comparison to the 48s and 55s in the market, but the mastfoil vs traditional rig has me torn. I am planning a trip to check out You Neva Know and Barracuda and might try to hit Espriti Asanti but it is probably out of my budget.

I saw a mastfoil here in Annapolis, parked on the South River almost all of last summer but I was just day dreaming at that point and never tried to hook up with the captain/owner. I am now regretting that decision, if anyone knows who that may of been and if they are still in MD/on the East Coast a lead would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your opinions, and advice!

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Hi Solarfuel - Boat shopping can be fun, if occasionally frustrating! I wonder about your other half - you say very little offshore experience, but can she sail, or are you single-handing with a watch stander? 

 

I have never been on an Atlantic 48. A close read of the listing and pictures tells me that You Neva Know is actually pretty lightly equipped, especially for short handed voyaging. You will need stuff. A close look at the pictures of Zen tells me she is better equipped, but really looking pretty rough; she will need a bunch of work to make her nice I think.

 

We looked at the Atlantic 47 Mastfoil Agility in Fairhaven about a year ago - still for sale. Price has come down about $90K. I found myself really scratching my head on the mast foils. Coming from monohulls I’m already making a big change, and the foils seemed like more change on top of that. I really appreciate the try Chris is making at having a boat that can be push-button reefed any time on any point of sail - really valuable for sailing with one on watch, etc. I worried about docking and maneuvering and also high wind situations with foils that can be trimmed but not “put away”. I worried about being a bit short of sail area on some points of sail - for which the get-well is the top down furler out front, which you have to really use. I worried a bit about the mechanics of actually handling the foils and their controls, which seemed to some extent to be still a work on progress - but maybe that’s just me.

 

In the end, my wife and I found Agility to be a little too small for us. I might have bit the bullet if the design was 51-53 feet - a little more waterline and payload. The new evolution of the design at 49 feet is a step that way. 

 

No doubt that the A57 is a lot of boat for two people to sail and to take care of. I didn’t set out to buy a 57’ cat!! 

 

I think you should try to sail these boats - offer to charter I suggest. My $0.02.

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Good to have so much Chris White experience in once place! 

Any insight as to the operational cost difference between a 48 and a 55/57? While I like the 48, I struggle to get past the forward cabin layouts having to walk through a shared head. 

 

 

Do you guys have any information on 'Myor'? It has been for sale for a long time. 

http://www.catamaransite.com/Atlantic55_1_catamaran_for_sale.html

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25 minutes ago, Aclmin said:

Good to have so much Chris White experience in once place! 

Any insight as to the operational cost difference between a 48 and a 55/57? While I like the 48, I struggle to get past the forward cabin layouts having to walk through a shared head. 

 

 

Do you guys have any information on 'Myor'? It has been for sale for a long time. 

http://www.catamaransite.com/Atlantic55_1_catamaran_for_sale.html

I have no personal knowledge of these boats. YMMV

Segue A55 is on offer at $700K.

That seems a much better deal than MYOR with an asking of $590k for a boat that’s never been finished. Of course asking and selling price are not the same thing.

MYOR listing suggests ~$100k in materials and 600+ hours to finish. If you love working on boats and have the time it might be OK. When have you ever noted boat work to come in below the “estimate” amount? So maybe $150k and 900 hours to $200 k and 1,200 hours to finish the boat.

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Thanks for the reply CapDave. My other half is more of a motorboater/watch stander at this point, but we plan on spending a a few seasons in Flordia and the outlying Islands before making any major yoyages. In reality I dont need to average 10+ knots to be happy, but would enjoy the capability to hit the high teens for the 5-10% of the relevant time it is available. Dropping the reef shorthanded in such a quick time frame, especially with an inexperienced sailor onboard does sound appealing, but at what cost.

The 47 is of ample size for us, as we dont/wont have any children and only the occasional guests onboard. I do like the idea of having additional length in the water for stabiity and comfort, but I am fearful of the additional challenges of stepping up to somthing as large as the 57. 

I would love to get out on a mastfoil in some wind, and comare it to my experiences with a traditional rig. 

 

 

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If I had $600k to spend I'd have a hard time not going for a newer Outremer 49. My target price <$400k left me out of the CW/newer Outremer market, but I think I'd enter the Outremer market first as I moved up in price. If I had +/-$800k I'd consider the CW's, but smaller Zen (and similar) were too small for me. It's hard to beat a nice CW57 with the extras, but you won't get that for $600k. 

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Can I ask two less comfortable questions about CW cats? I am not doing it to stir any internet bs controversy — genuinely would like to know for my own “over the horizon project”. 

1. Atlantic cats seem about 50% more expensive than Outremers. Why? They are not carbon fiber. Are there any real life race (or ARC) performance numbers to justify the premium? Better design (premium for the forward cockpit?), better construction? 

2. In the recent memory I can recall three cruising cat capsizes - one Catana in the Med like 10-15 years ago, and two A57s — Leopard off US east coast 3-5 years ago and Anna in So Pacific about 10 years ago. Of the performance  cruising cats I am guessing CW cats are 10% of the boats on the water I guess, so the percentage doesn't look random anymore. Any rational explanation? Perhaps Atlantic owners sail them more?

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Thanks for the reply Soma. I value your opinion after reading so much on this forum. While i love the asthetics and sailplan on the outremer i just cant seem to give up the inside helm and center station present on the CW when considering my crew restraints. 

Did you ever check out Barracuda or Segue in your recent hunt? I could squeeze the budget to 8 for the right boat but it would have to be as close to turn key as resonably possible for the adventure ahead.

 

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20 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I'm a big fan of the Oram designs. He likes flat panel construction, narrow boats with small rigs, and lots of waterline length.

I went up the Mary river to Maryborough to meet Bob when I was cruising Queensland. I was still recovering from getting nailed by a really big breaker while crossing the Wide Bay bar, but cruising up the Great Sandy Straights and up the Mary river was good. Maryborough and meeting Bob was really cool. Would be great to find a source for lines and photos of Oram designs.

One of his early designs was inspired by the G32, "Who Cares" wasn't as long or light, but did everything she was designed to do, and more. I've been a fan since. 

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On 8/20/2019 at 12:17 PM, CapDave said:

 Not sure how the OP gets "small aft cockpit" or "centerboard" for these A57 boats? Our aft cockpit is 6'8" X 16'8" on floor space alone, plus the seating. And we have asymmetric high lift daggerboards; I think all the A57s do. 

 

I was on a 55 I think this winter which had centerboards.  I did not know that they came with dagger boards now. I came away thinking in my opinion I would have a smaller forward cockpit with no seating and a larger aft cockpit with built in roof.  Does Chris have a reason for the raised aft cockpit floor. 

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Love that Oram cat, the single daggerboard had me scratching my head for a while but I remember reading an article by John Shuttleworth about how the losses weren't as big as one might think and the gains in terms of interior space (especially in a narrow hull) were quite appealing indeed.

Also love the protected helm and the seemingly easily handled rig with furling everything and most (if not all) lines leading to the helm. The forward bunks don't seem to have much privacy though.

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Soma, I value your opinion, too. You have mentioned FINN in one of these threads.

May I ask you: If your ability to go over the horizon is restricted by your technical and sailing ability (eg two weekend warriors on small trimaran) and not by your budget, would you consider a boat like FINN?

Or is running a boat like that without préparateur/boat captain a daft idea that leads to doom unmitigated failure and divorce?

Thank you.

 

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2 hours ago, Kalimotxo said:

Soma, I value your opinion, too. You have mentioned FINN in one of these threads.

May I ask you: If your ability to go over the horizon is restricted by your technical and sailing ability (eg two weekend warriors on small trimaran) and not by your budget, would you consider a boat like FINN?

Or is running a boat like that without préparateur/boat captain a daft idea that leads to doom unmitigated failure and divorce?

Thank you.

I would fall over myself to buy Finn. If I were you, I'd lean on good help (I'll volunteer!) to get your feet under you at the beginning (deliveries, first couple of week long cruises, etc) but your skills will quickly develop as you're out there doing it. Before you know it you'll have the boat under your thumb. Finn was set up to be VERY owner friendly. Clint is a very experienced and very clever boater. He baked a lot of good ideas into the boat. That boat is the best boat in that price range for sure  

 

(If you're seriously interested I'm in contact with the owner, skipper, broker, etc, and I'd be happy to represent you in a purchase)

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On 8/20/2019 at 8:31 PM, Russell Brown said:

I'm a big fan of the Oram designs. He likes flat panel construction, narrow boats with small rigs, and lots of waterline length.

I went up the Mary river to Maryborough to meet Bob when I was cruising Queensland. I was still recovering from getting nailed by a really big breaker while crossing the Wide Bay bar, but cruising up the Great Sandy Straights and up the Mary river was good. Maryborough and meeting Bob was really cool. Would be great to find a source for lines and photos of Oram designs.

Bob is back on the web again.  https://www.boboramdesign.com  I communicated with him a bit about a few of his designs in my early quest for a cruising cat 15 years ago and I truly love the Slim concept.  That 60'er gets my chin all chapped from wiping the drool off, but such a boat isn't in the cards.... I'm really not up for such a big boat but would love a 40-45' version of the G32...

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23 hours ago, EarthBM said:

Can I ask two less comfortable questions about CW cats? I am not doing it to stir any internet bs controversy — genuinely would like to know for my own “over the horizon project”. 

1. Atlantic cats seem about 50% more expensive than Outremers. Why? They are not carbon fiber. Are there any real life race (or ARC) performance numbers to justify the premium? Better design (premium for the forward cockpit?), better construction? 

2. In the recent memory I can recall three cruising cat capsizes - one Catana in the Med like 10-15 years ago, and two A57s — Leopard off US east coast 3-5 years ago and Anna in So Pacific about 10 years ago. Of the performance  cruising cats I am guessing CW cats are 10% of the boats on the water I guess, so the percentage doesn't look random anymore. Any rational explanation? Perhaps Atlantic owners sail them more?

As for price,  CW cats are custom one-offs by various builders, Outremer has the advantage of not only a production line but (I'm guessing) also the advantage of being a somewhat (indirectly) subsidized builder courtesy of the French government.  

The A57's are not underpowered, overweight production cruising cats so it doesn't surprise me that they would be quicker to be vulnerable to sudden increases in wind.  My gut sense is that most charter type cats would be more likely to lose the rig than flip....

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5 hours ago, soma said:

I would fall over myself to buy Finn.

Which boat is Finn? A GB 48? what are some of the stand out ideas?

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Finnis a Banuls 53. Renaud Banuls was (one of) the visionaries at VPLP from the ORMA-Dogzilla era. He went solo not long after Dogzilla. He designed the MC2-60 and the new Sodebo (among others) since then. Great designer with a beautiful eye. Finn was built by McConaghy with Bruno Laurent as PM. Bruno is the man. I don't think there is a skipper/boat jig in the world with a better resume than Bruno. Clint was the original owner of the GB6202 'Safari' and was partially the inspiration and energy behind the Gunboat vision (with PJ obviously). Clint owned and sailed Safari for many years so he knew what boat ownership entails, and what high performance sailing is. From the watermaker layout, to the sail controls, engine placement...it's all thought out. Nothing is just sorta shoehorned in or accidental. Plus, Clint is one of the best photographers in the world and has an artists eye. The interior design is beautiful. 

 

To be honest, that boat is too nice for me and the kids. The boys would destroy it! Can you tell I have a crush?

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Don’t know about that price or cost of ownership but at that stage is usually not a consideration... all I know is if it’s so then somebody got a great boat. 

What cracks me up though is that even the thread specific to cats... once you start talking fun to sail... you end up back with a trimaran. 

Walked that path myself with the wife. Tried and tried to find a cat we would like to sail. Could not. Bought a tri.

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3 hours ago, toolbar said:

Sorry guys (unless one of you was really quick): Finn is SALE PENDING. 

Paul

The boat WAS under contract but the deal fell through. This may be a new buyer, or the listing may not have been updated. I'm checking...

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1 hour ago, soma said:

The boat WAS under contract but the deal fell through. This may be a new buyer, or the listing may not have been updated. I'm checking...

The boat went under contract again this weekend. 

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2 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Ugh, narrow beam... to fit some lifts, berths? Or to fly a hull at 12kt?

18'?!? That's gotta be wrong...right? 

 

 

IMG_9382.JPG

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Yep, the brochure is at 30’

likely some imperial-metric confusion 

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2 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Yep, the brochure is at 30’

likely some imperial-metric confusion 

The video supporting the listing is PAINFUL to watch! But it seems like a good boat. Usually I really like the Multihull Company video tours, but this one gets a bit too Euro artsy for me  

 

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Sorry for the long post, maybe some will find it helpful. I had time to write it while my wife and I made our 400 mile/51 hour trip from Newfoundland back to Nova Scotia!!

I tried to learn everything I could about the choices I was looking at leading up to buying Boundless. I learned a fair amount about the various Catana models, about which the broker Don Buckle’s knowledge is truly encyclopedic. I chartered a C471 in the Caribbean, and I visited the Catana yard in 2015, and I looked at many boats for sale. I tried the same exercise with Outremer, and did a delivery on O51 Archer from Nanny Cay up to Little Creek, very impressive, and also visited the Outremer yard in 2015, and looked at a number of both the older series and the newer series boats for sale there and elsewhere. I looked at a couple of the Switch 51 cats, and also the sole Switch 55, and a few one-off boats along the way.  I increasingly focused on Chris White’s Atlantic series as time went by.

 

Main Pros:

  1. I actually really like the forward cockpit. There is some additional weather exposure going upwind, and many people fear water filling such a big box. There are four 3” straight through drains, it won’t hold water for long. Most importantly, it is an incredibly safe place from which to sail the boat. You are inside a waist-high pit, 10 fit from any edge, with all lines and winches right there. There is no climbing up or down or in or out, there is basically zero exposure to overboard risk. The only reason to leave the cockpit is to fly a spinnaker, or furl the mainsail. It’s close to the windlass for easy anchoring coordination, and it’s in the shade of the house when anchored in the typical trade wind afternoon, yet gets the breeze - heaven. And a bit of a multi-hull secret I learned - yes the good ones are fast, but this makes the stern kinda loud with the wakes; it’s quiet up here.
  2. The pilot-house salon is a dealmaker for me. Full 360 degree visibility seated or standing, warm and dry. Real doors in and out - two of them! Lots of desk and table space, lots of floor space, lots of seating. Full steering station is a bonus - it’s really rare to have an inside station where you can actually drive the boat if you wanted to. 
  3. The aft deck, which is a huge space. And I like the dinghy parked on deck there instead of hung on davits. And we keep one of our folding bikes set up on a trainer there, and get cardio at anchor or underway.
  4. All the separate spaces on the boat - three on deck, with double entrances to the house, no pinch points, no companionways.
  5. Oh, and yeah, it’s a really cool looking boat.

 

Main Cons:

  1. Engines under the aft bunks - I would strongly prefer not to have engines in the accommodation space. In practice it’s been OK, but not my favorite. Advantage is weight forward, not parked right at the stern.
  2. Fuel tanks in the accommodations - I’d really prefer to have them where many cats do, up in the lockers either side of the mast. On the other hand, the weight is low, and we have huge storage for ground tackle and the deck gear at the mast instead.
  3. No “island” bunk - rules out an entire segment of the market I think for a boat this size, and Chris has found a way to turn the amidships bunks 90 degrees to solve this in later designs. In practice it’s been fine.

 

Choosing one:

Chris did a clever trick with the A47 mast foil - he pushed the interior beam of the house way out, and got a visual space almost as wide as the A57, at the fairly minor price of pretty narrow side decks on deck.  Of course the salon is noticeably shorter fore and aft…..The 90 degree pivot on the midships bunk is good, though the headroom is a little tight. I wasn’t that impressed by the design and execution of the steering equipment. The pros and cons on the mast foil for me I wrote about in a post above, but in the end the boat was too small for us so the foils weren’t really the deciding factor. The A48 we didn’t look at, using the A47MF as a proxy and knowing we’d find it too small. 

So we focused on the A55 & A57. Chris told me that the only difference between the hulls is a two foot stretch of the forepeaks, for the sole purpose of making the staysail bigger to ease the sail-area gap up to the genoa (good idea we have found). And all the A55’s have centerboards except Spirit (sealed up), and Iron Wing (whale bottom with daggers). Chris also lowered the aft deck on the A57, though the underwing clearance is the same. And Chris switched from Bongers to Alwoplast, claiming they built a lighter boat and with less fairing compound. The three Alwoplast boats I’ve seen are certainly nicer than the two Bongers boats.  It certainly seems the Alwoplast boats experimented more with different textiles - Boundless has a lot of extra carbon, and S-Glass, and Kevlar all in the layup. She was said to be 1,200 lbs. lighter than previous boats. The last three A57s were built at Aquidneck. 

 

Atlantic 55 - said to be 6

Spirit - 2001 - Bongers #1 - modified - we passed - sold in 2017

Rocketeer?  http://sailrocketeer.com

Javelin - Chris’s boat

Synergy/Iron Wing - 2002 - Bongers #4 - we saw and passed - for sale Ft. Lauderdale

Segue - 2003 - Bongers #5 - we saw and passed - still for sale

Myor - 2010 - Lombardi Yachts - amateur semi-completion - for sale Beaufort NC

 

Atlantic 57 - said to be 11

Espiritu Santi - 2008 - Alwoplast #1, now for sale

Nogal - 2009 - Alwoplast #2 (out cruising)

Anna - 2009 - Alwoplast #3 - gone

aVida/Boundless - 2009 - Alwoplast #4 we own her now

Pata Gao - 2010 - Alwoplast #5

Agility - 2010 - Alwoplast #6 (US, same owner later bought A47MF Agility)

Pacific Eagle - 2011 - Alwoplast #7 (Australia?)

Hekla — 2011 Alwoplast #8  - We saw - we liked, but sold 3/18 - (MPenman - yours?)

Leopard - Aquidneck - capsized, recovered, CW bought from insurance co, in NC for refit.

Lely - Aquidneck

Cerulean - 2010 Aquidneck - for sale 

 

A few questions came up in the thread above:

We talked to the owner of Myor, and with CW about her. The hull and deck are a quality professional build. In my opinion, you can strip off and throw out pretty much everything done after that. So the price/time/cost equation just doesn’t work.

A57 capsizes - It’s a light boat with a big rig. Operator error is a distinct possibility. Reading between the lines, my personal guess is that accounts for Anna. Leopard I think was in the s**t happens category. 

The A57 as a rough guesstimate is probably close to double the cost to maintain over the A48. Surprising maybe, but I doubt far off. The A47 might be a bit more than the A48 in the end because somehow that unusual design is going to cost unusual money at some point.

Segue is probably the best deal on offer right now, though I haven’t seen the results of the refit done after we saw her. The owner bit the bullet and spent a bunch of money, but she’s also been for sale a long time…..

And for Solarfuel - I’d say that unless you find a dealbreaker in the A47MF when you visit, that’s likely to be the best fit for you and your situation. The learning curve for a non-sailor on an A57 would be pretty fierce…..for example, we have 28 pieces of running rigging in our cockpit. I just counted.

In the end, it’s really hard buying boats in the 48’ - 58’ size range. They take a lot of maintenance, yet these owners generally don’t have the time to do it themselves. And beyond the usual boatyard/trades help here and there, they generally don’t have the money for a full professional maintenance program. And we encountered more than one owner whose attitude was - I fixed the things that broke, what do you mean the boat’s not well maintained? In general owners in this range tend to “use a boat up” and then move on, with shock they can’t sell for purchase price plus receipts from repairs!!

In the end we bought the best boat we found that we could reasonably afford, and we still spent another 15% and three months in the yard doing absolutely necessary items to go live aboard cruising. We’ll spend another 10% and 2 months in the spring to do some updates and improvements, on top of a regular maintenance program. And so on.

Hope this is helpful - of course I can keep going, we invested a lot of time in this choice. Happy to talk if somebody wants even more granularity.

Welcome back to Nova Scotia.jpg

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Excellent post CapDave. After reading this and watching the video below, i am really leaning toward the 47. The 55/57 sounds like an amazing boat, but given the crew restraints i believe we will be much safer in the mastfoil. 

Thanks again for the information!

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One caveat on the A47MF I forgot to mention - the engines sit under the sole roughly amidships in each hull. There is no real design/construction effort made to soundproof them, and they are indeed pretty loud. We studied it a bit, and it would be expensive, difficult, and heavy to fit a soundbox - would have been easier in build. YMMV.

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1 hour ago, CapDave said:

One caveat on the A47MF I forgot to mention - the engines sit under the sole roughly amidships in each hull. There is no real design/construction effort made to soundproof them, and they are indeed pretty loud. We studied it a bit, and it would be expensive, difficult, and heavy to fit a soundbox - would have been easier in build. YMMV.

Precisely the concern I had with the 47MF for sale here in the PNW...  (I want... but I know better)

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