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34 minutes ago, TheDragon said:

Can someone point me to details of how the foils are controlled? Is it entirely manual adjustments by the skipper or is there some kind of computer control for the pitch and rake? And if computer, are they allowed to adjust as frequently as they want, every second?

The IMOCA rule allows hydraulic control in two places only, keel cant via a supplied one design system and rudder yaw (left/right) for autopilot. Everything else is manual power.

 

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^^Interesting V2 foil design for 11th Hour Racing's IMOCA60, especially as it relates to the spur, which I imagine is supposed minimise leeway. This is something like the V1 retro-fit foils which Nick Holroyd designed for the older IMOCA60's. Interestingly, those foils were ditched for new V2 foils without spurs. 

That new foil span is massive, compared to the V1 foils on the old Hugo Boss, which were originally considered massive. Not too dissimilar to the new crop of VPLP and Verdier V2 foils, except for the spur. 

Anyone know who designed these V2 foils? Interesting times.

 

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From the curvature of the support strut, it appears as if the Spur becomes more vertical as the junction point approaches the hull during retraction. Certainly got span, which will help with drag. 

It's not like that boat was slow. Hopefully given it a another shot of steroids.

Must be phenomenally expensive to build.

Can't understand why this boat is going for a crack at the VG (especially with the delay of the Oceans Race).

 

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2 hours ago, Boink said:

Can't understand why this boat isn't going for a crack at the VG (especially with the delay of the Oceans Race).

Alex chose to sell it to a team that was tilting at doing The Ocean Race rather than the VG, which is sensible for him, and to enter the VG you had to apply by the 1st November last year, so from that point out boats are locked into a skipper / boat combo. You can't just charter another boat and swap etc.

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3 hours ago, Boink said:

From the curvature of the support strut, it appears as if the Spur becomes more vertical as the junction point approaches the hull during retraction. Certainly got span, which will help with drag. 

It's not like that boat was slow. Hopefully given it a another shot of steroids.

Must be phenomenally expensive to build.

Can't understand why this boat is going for a crack at the VG (especially with the delay of the Oceans Race).

 

Pretty sure a condition of sale to from Alex Thomson Racing to 11th Hour Racing, was that the boat would not compete in the 2020 VG. Pretty smart move as, Alex knew how quick she was.

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5 hours ago, Barons said:

Wow, first time sailing the boat solo. Guess it doesn't matter all that much, surprising to hear though. Guess it easier to do all of the testing & figure out the modes with more people on the boat. 

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Very interesting notes from Tip & Shaft newsletter.  The boats are sooooo fast that they are unlivable. 

Increasingly uncomfortable un-livable boats

While the top three clearly earmark themselves as contenders for victory in the Vendée Globe, all our experts question their ability to live long term with the pace, as the new ones set new levels of discomfort but also the older generation with big, new foils, they are infernal in high-speed conditions.
 
"There are times when they can't move in the boat at all,” comments Romain Attanasio. “This time they had transitions that allowed them to relax and get out of their seats, but we'll see on the Vendée how they'll do if it lasts several days. That is going to be quite a challenge. This is almost the first time a skipper will have to slow down because he can no longer stand the ‘living’ conditions on board."
 
What is not so obvious, according to Didier Ravon: "Four years ago, Armel finally did not foil so much in the South, but now, down there with their big foils, they're not going to be able to retract them (apart from Armel Tripon who has this option on L'Occitane).
 
Will the sailors agree to lift their foot off the gas? This will certainly be one of the issues of this Vendée Globe according to Jean-Yves Bernot: "These boats look very demanding: it is clear that when a guy is pushing it or not completely on it is obvious as he quickly loses 3 knots. Knowing how to manage sleep spells so as not to implode en route will become a main topic."
 
It is something which concerns Jacques Caraes : "Medically speaking, we can go from bumps and bruising to fractures,  we're going to have to be careful." 

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21 minutes ago, Foolish said:

Very interesting notes from Tip & Shaft newsletter.  The boats are sooooo fast that they are unlivable. 

Increasingly uncomfortable un-livable boats

While the top three clearly earmark themselves as contenders for victory in the Vendée Globe, all our experts question their ability to live long term with the pace, as the new ones set new levels of discomfort but also the older generation with big, new foils, they are infernal in high-speed conditions.
 
"There are times when they can't move in the boat at all,” comments Romain Attanasio. “This time they had transitions that allowed them to relax and get out of their seats, but we'll see on the Vendée how they'll do if it lasts several days. That is going to be quite a challenge. This is almost the first time a skipper will have to slow down because he can no longer stand the ‘living’ conditions on board."
 
What is not so obvious, according to Didier Ravon: "Four years ago, Armel finally did not foil so much in the South, but now, down there with their big foils, they're not going to be able to retract them (apart from Armel Tripon who has this option on L'Occitane).
 
Will the sailors agree to lift their foot off the gas? This will certainly be one of the issues of this Vendée Globe according to Jean-Yves Bernot: "These boats look very demanding: it is clear that when a guy is pushing it or not completely on it is obvious as he quickly loses 3 knots. Knowing how to manage sleep spells so as not to implode en route will become a main topic."
 
It is something which concerns Jacques Caraes : "Medically speaking, we can go from bumps and bruising to fractures,  we're going to have to be careful." 

Sleep with a five point harness and a hans device in a race seat.

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A giant bean bag chair filled with foam chunks?

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22 minutes ago, trimfast said:

"Medically speaking, we can go from bumps and bruising to fractures, 

It's not just the sleeping.  It's the minute to minute moving around the boat.  Can you imagine trying to stand and move around while driving your jeep on a road at 30-40 mph with bumps ranging from 1' to 60', for hundreds of hours on end.  They won't just need a helmet. They'll need full football gear!  The fact that they have completely enclosed the cockpits is proof that they have taken these boats to a new level that might be beyond human endurance.    It was a dozen years ago I made the comment that racing an IMOCA 60 is more like skippering an aircraft carrier than anything we mortals would consider sailing.  Today, it would be more like flying a stealth bomber in a hurricane. 

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I don't think it is a coincidence that the more exp more mature skippers, or boats designed by architects who were doing foiling boats the last time around - have pushed their boats to be more and more enclosed - with Hugo Boss at the extreme but Charal/Apivia basically enclosed now as well (plus many prior non-foiling boats rebuilt to be foilers are enclosed).

When the VG gets started - I'm imagining a lot of content being sent back that's barely audible. 

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On 7/16/2020 at 8:43 PM, TheDragon said:

Can someone point me to details of how the foils are controlled? Is it entirely manual adjustments by the skipper or is there some kind of computer control for the pitch and rake? And if computer, are they allowed to adjust as frequently as they want, every second?

I'm pretty sure they're controlled passively as in the skipper manually sets the angle of the foil and leaves them until conditions change like a new point of sail or changing weather conditions. 

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Many years ago some crazies set the cross Atlantic motor boat record. The only livable place was seats with suspension. One broken ankle accessing engine room 

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The more you read about the current IMOCA the more the Ultime race looks like the reasonable thing...

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On 7/18/2020 at 2:21 PM, Raptorsailor said:

I'm pretty sure they're controlled passively as in the skipper manually sets the angle of the foil and leaves them until conditions change like a new point of sail or changing weather conditions. 

I confirm: foil settings are done manually. 

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On 6/28/2020 at 7:46 AM, Chimp too said:

Also love the editing. Every time the bow comes up and the foils are about to stall the footage cuts away.

I think that I read that some are going for more low end lift/stability at the expense of high end performance, many came back from Iceland talking about sailing more like multis, backing off for seastate.

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7 minutes ago, Ahstom said:

I confirm: foil settings are done manually. 

Shims?

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On 7/18/2020 at 2:41 AM, Foolish said:

Very interesting notes from Tip & Shaft newsletter.  The boats are sooooo fast that they are unlivable. 

Increasingly uncomfortable un-livable boats

While the top three clearly earmark themselves as contenders for victory in the Vendée Globe, all our experts question their ability to live long term with the pace, as the new ones set new levels of discomfort but also the older generation with big, new foils, they are infernal in high-speed conditions.
 
"There are times when they can't move in the boat at all,” comments Romain Attanasio. “This time they had transitions that allowed them to relax and get out of their seats, but we'll see on the Vendée how they'll do if it lasts several days. That is going to be quite a challenge. This is almost the first time a skipper will have to slow down because he can no longer stand the ‘living’ conditions on board."
 
What is not so obvious, according to Didier Ravon: "Four years ago, Armel finally did not foil so much in the South, but now, down there with their big foils, they're not going to be able to retract them (apart from Armel Tripon who has this option on L'Occitane).
 
Will the sailors agree to lift their foot off the gas? This will certainly be one of the issues of this Vendée Globe according to Jean-Yves Bernot: "These boats look very demanding: it is clear that when a guy is pushing it or not completely on it is obvious as he quickly loses 3 knots. Knowing how to manage sleep spells so as not to implode en route will become a main topic."
 
It is something which concerns Jacques Caraes : "Medically speaking, we can go from bumps and bruising to fractures,  we're going to have to be careful." 

Doesn't sound like too much fun.! Looking at the foiling footage I can imagine being down below being akin to something like an aeroplane stuck in turbulence.! Fasten your seatbelts and don't move around the cabin. My guess is in a way they will cherish the doldrums for some much needed rest and comfort. 

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3 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Doesn't sound like too much fun.! Looking at the foiling footage I can imagine being down below being akin to something like an aeroplane stuck in turbulence.! Fasten your seatbelts and don't move around the cabin. My guess is in a way they will cherish the doldrums for some much needed rest and comfort. 

As they race from black squall cloud, to even blacker squall cloud you mean, Terra? ;-)

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On 7/17/2020 at 6:41 PM, Foolish said:

Very interesting notes from Tip & Shaft newsletter.  The boats are sooooo fast that they are unlivable. 

Increasingly uncomfortable un-livable boats

While the top three clearly earmark themselves as contenders for victory in the Vendée Globe, all our experts question their ability to live long term with the pace, as the new ones set new levels of discomfort but also the older generation with big, new foils, they are infernal in high-speed conditions.
 
"There are times when they can't move in the boat at all,” comments Romain Attanasio. “This time they had transitions that allowed them to relax and get out of their seats, but we'll see on the Vendée how they'll do if it lasts several days. That is going to be quite a challenge. This is almost the first time a skipper will have to slow down because he can no longer stand the ‘living’ conditions on board."
 
What is not so obvious, according to Didier Ravon: "Four years ago, Armel finally did not foil so much in the South, but now, down there with their big foils, they're not going to be able to retract them (apart from Armel Tripon who has this option on L'Occitane).
 
Will the sailors agree to lift their foot off the gas? This will certainly be one of the issues of this Vendée Globe according to Jean-Yves Bernot: "These boats look very demanding: it is clear that when a guy is pushing it or not completely on it is obvious as he quickly loses 3 knots. Knowing how to manage sleep spells so as not to implode en route will become a main topic."
 
It is something which concerns Jacques Caraes : "Medically speaking, we can go from bumps and bruising to fractures,  we're going to have to be careful." 

Thomas Ruyant made some interesting comments after the race about the boat being very fast as long as he was "on it" (he meant being continuously adjusting setting to extract best performance). He seemed exhausted at the end and didn't look like he could sustain that rhythm for a whole VG, in addition to the apparent yoyo in pace compared to Charal and Apivia. Looks like L'occitane philosophy is the way to go, target highest average rather than ultimate speed. A big dilemma between how much the skippers want to be in contact to the boat (usually very valuable for solo racing) and comfort to be able to rest. Shock absorbant seat and bed, noise cancelling earplugs/headphones, ...

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47 minutes ago, Lakrass said:

Thomas Ruyant made some interesting comments after the race about the boat being very fast as long as he was "on it" (he meant being continuously adjusting setting to extract best performance). He seemed exhausted at the end and didn't look like he could sustain that rhythm for a whole VG, in addition to the apparent yoyo in pace compared to Charal and Apivia. Looks like L'occitane philosophy is the way to go, target highest average rather than ultimate speed. A big dilemma between how much the skippers want to be in contact to the boat (usually very valuable for solo racing) and comfort to be able to rest. Shock absorbant seat and bed, noise cancelling earplugs/headphones, ...

Yeah it's a marathon and we know Thomas went hard at the start. Jeremie perhaps saved some for the end where he seemed to have the legs although it was a see saw affair and I'm tipping about managing yourself, the boat and it's performance over and extended period. 

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14 hours ago, Bruno said:

Shims?

For the base settings maybe, but since it can be adjusted offshore, my bets are on screws or hydraulic ram to set the position of the top bearing. 

Edit: hydraulic ram must be with hand pump since it can't be power assisted by rule

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Meanwhile 11th hour doing its new foil boat testing for an event that doesn’t exist, with one of the best first generation foilers. 

I don’t even understand the program - what’s their investment/PR for? 

maybe the non-participation is more of the result of ATR sale condition, but I struggle to understand programs that spend more time at the dock like ultimes that can totally be invested on people like Phil Sharp or even Conrad for some VG presence. 

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13 minutes ago, perioecus said:

Seriously, the whole situation stinks. The new owners of the fastest last-gen boat are prevented from racing the VG through some fishy* contractual limit (Keeping in mind that the sale of the old boat, at least in part, funded the construction of the new one), and IMOCA expressed no dissatisfaction?  Yours is a really good point: Imagine the guy, who seems perpetually underfunded yet still manages to win so much, racing the VG on 11th Hour. Do the French love un cheval noir or what?

*I have little understanding of international law.

Not sure what/who you are refering to, besides HBprevious, all the "new owners of the fastest last-gen boat" will be on the start line to my knowledge. And if "no VG 2020" was on HBprevious sales conditions (doubt it), then it has nothing to do with the IMOCA class.

Plus it looks to me that preparing a VG 2020 and a TOR 2021 campaign on the original planning for 11th hour would have been too much, they just got tangled in the virus thing. (with the TOR even 2022 now in doubt)

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11th Hour Racing have never had any intention of competing in the VG. The boat is a training boat for the team and a way to spend some of their bottomless google funded budget. 

My question though is how can you accurately test new foils, for a new boat on an old boat they're not designed for? Equally if they're built and designed for their current boat then why? My understanding is that once the new boat is out of the shed they'll be going record hunting until they finally pull the plug on TOR. Imagine being stuck with their current and their new build 60 with no race to go to... Ooops 

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22 minutes ago, Bentley the Badger said:

11th Hour Racing have never had any intention of competing in the VG. The boat is a training boat for the team and a way to spend some of their bottomless google funded budget. 

My question though is how can you accurately test new foils, for a new boat on an old boat they're not designed for? Equally if they're built and designed for their current boat then why? My understanding is that once the new boat is out of the shed they'll be going record hunting until they finally pull the plug on TOR. Imagine being stuck with their current and their new build 60 with no race to go to... Ooops 

I always thought it hilarious to be promoting a message of “green environment” while building a new boat to replace the one that’s perfectly fine and serviceable. 

Kind of like wrapping a 747 with vinyl that says no more single use plastics. 

It isn’t quite as dumb as Simeon wanting to build a new VO65, but somehow it feels like it is up there. 

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3 minutes ago, perioecus said:

By the "new owners" of the previous HB I mean potentially any entity that were willing to pay for it, not necessarily the eventual new owners. Sure, It's controversial to call the previous HB the "fastest" of the prior generation, though it is the "fastest" by at least one indisputable measure.  And I suppose it's hearsay that non-participation in the VG 2020 was a pre-condition of the sale.  If true, I would think that some members of IMOCA would scoff at the thought of the demonstrably "fastest" example of their class being prevented from racing in the most prestigious event of their class, or being bought ostensibly as a "test boat," when there are a number of skippers out there with the chops to compete, but who either have no boat, or an older less competitive one.

While I don't want to disagree with you I don't think IMOCA would be overly concerned. Pre COVID they had 35 entries into the VG - admittedly not all will now make it but they still found themselves oversubscribed and had to increase capacity to accommodate additional entries. 

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2 hours ago, Miffy said:

Kind of like wrapping a 747 with vinyl that says no more single use plastics. 

Gold!

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16 hours ago, Miffy said:

I always thought it hilarious to be promoting a message of “green environment” while building a new boat to replace the one that’s perfectly fine and serviceable. 

Not just the new 60 either, got the 85 to add to the stable of sustainability....

deep blue.jpg

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8 minutes ago, NZK said:

Not just the new 60 either, got the 85 to add to the stable of sustainability....

deep blue.jpg

Jeeez. They need pie warmers on the end of that draggy bitch, to get that ensign flyin

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17 hours ago, perioecus said:

By the "new owners" of the previous HB I mean potentially any entity that were willing to pay for it, not necessarily the eventual new owners. Sure, It's controversial to call the previous HB the "fastest" of the prior generation, though it is the "fastest" by at least one indisputable measure.  And I suppose it's hearsay that non-participation in the VG 2020 was a pre-condition of the sale.  If true, I would think that some members of IMOCA would scoff at the thought of the demonstrably "fastest" example of their class being prevented from racing in the most prestigious event of their class, or being bought ostensibly as a "test boat," when there are a number of skippers out there with the chops to compete, but who either have no boat, or an older less competitive one.

I rather suspect that there's a clause in there so that AT could revert to that boat if the new one was found wanting

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L'Occitane's "picture run" at the beginning of the Vendée Arctique. The "scow bow" seems to regulate the boat's pitch amazingly well, allowing the foils to work at their best incidence all the time.

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1 hour ago, serialsailor said:

L'Occitane's "picture run" at the beginning of the Vendée Arctique. The "scow bow" seems to regulate the boat's pitch amazingly well, allowing the foils to work at their best incidence all the time.

Yet another example of footage being unnecessarily sped up for some reason...
 

I don't know if they're trying to cram more footage into a given video duration, or maybe to make things appear faster than they are, but I find it completely unnecessary and sinks credibility.

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37 minutes ago, bosshawg said:

Yet another example of footage being unnecessarily sped up for some reason...
 

I don't know if they're trying to cram more footage into a given video duration, or maybe to make things appear faster than they are, but I find it completely unnecessary and sinks credibility.

Wait what? When is this sped up? The second part looks very fast but i'm not positive it's been sped up.. It could be now that you said it but i'm really not sure.

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1 minute ago, serialsailor said:

Wait what? When is this sped up? The second part looks very fast but i'm not positive it's been sped up.. It could be now that you said it but i'm really not sure.

1:52 looks like the speed is jumping up to me now that you say it.

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^^^Regardless of the video properties, L'Occitane is a quick boat.

Let's hope, Manuard can sort the structural problems before the start of the VG.

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I still think that l'Occitane's scow bow has something to do with the fact there isn't a fully enclosed cockpit. Then again the trend has been towards more scow ish bows in the past 2 generations of IMOCA. I just don't think it's something that will catch on in the future.

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1 hour ago, Raptorsailor said:

I still think that l'Occitane's scow bow has something to do with the fact there isn't a fully enclosed cockpit. Then again the trend has been towards more scow ish bows in the past 2 generations of IMOCA. I just don't think it's something that will catch on in the future.

I think whether we will see scow bows on future builds will depend on the direction the class take. If they do not let the rule allow for elevators and therefore fully foiling boats, then the scow bow seems like a very good solution do prevent nosediving and have those high, skimming mode, speed averages. If they go full foiling and somehow manage to stabilize that flight enough maybe the scow bow will not be needed.

It's sad that we just have l'Occitane because if it breaks we won't be able to tell. But it will be great to have 3 different trends of hulls and even more different hull/foils combinations come November.

Then again, maybe i'm full of shit and the Manuard design isn't that great of a Vendee Globe boat. Time will tell.

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

^^^Regardless of the video properties, L'Occitane is a quick boat.

Let's hope, Manuard can sort the structural problems before the start of the VG.

It certainly looks quick reaching, i'm eager to see how it compares in downwind VGM perfomance, which probably even more important in the Vendée.
I really hope the structure gets sorted too, i'd hate seeing him abandon.

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I don't understand why people talk about the foiling imocas as if the PR shots highlighting high foiling heights are more representative than actual footage of foiling boats in the open ocean from since the last Vendee Globe. We pretending this is still 2016 because of how traumatizing everything happening in the world has been since?

Some boats will fail. They always do - but from 2016, the foilers didn't have a lower rate of finishing the VG & performed significantly better. Some boats will push the design envelope of the bow to as much volume as possible. Others have went another direction and reduced weight as much as possible & manage sail area/rig loads. 

Who will win? Let's watch and find out - but I'm excited the French have figured out how to run an event without it becoming a clusterfuck in covid19 world. 

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6 minutes ago, Miffy said:

I don't understand why people talk about the foiling imocas as if the PR shots highlighting high foiling heights are more representative than actual footage of foiling boats in the open ocean from since the last Vendee Globe. We pretending this is still 2016 because of how traumatizing everything happening in the world has been since?

Some boats will fail. They always do - but from 2016, the foilers didn't have a lower rate of finishing the VG & performed significantly better. Some boats will push the design envelope of the bow to as much volume as possible. Others have went another direction and reduced weight as much as possible & manage sail area/rig loads. 

Who will win? Let's watch and find out - but I'm excited the French have figured out how to run an event without it becoming a clusterfuck in covid19 world. 

We all know that the PR shots are the boats at their best angles in the best conditions and it is indeed a bit vain to extrapolate from that.. But it does give us a clue to the hull shape's behaviour in a given sea state. Even then you're right, all we're doing here is armchair sailing ;)

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, serialsailor said:

Even then you're right, all we're doing here is armchair sailing ;)

I have to say, this 2020 VG is looking pretty damned exciting from my particular armchair. November, 8th can't come fast enough, as far as I'm concerned. Bring it on! ;-)

And I'm not the only one, excited. From the mythical Front Page, Ronnie has another piece, reminding us not to overlook Hugo Boss:

https://sailinganarchy.com/2020/07/21/come-race-day/

Edited by Sailbydate
Hugo Boss
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7 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

I still think that l'Occitane's scow bow has something to do with the fact there isn't a fully enclosed cockpit. Then again the trend has been towards more scow ish bows in the past 2 generations of IMOCA. I just don't think it's something that will catch on in the future.

Sorry, but I disagree.

If the new Imoca rule does not address or rule out scow bows, then their march towards wider acceptance is almost inevitable.

The Class 40 has seen how much of a power generating ability it gives them, the mini 650's also, and are probably indicates where the production mass market will head, more than the Imoca's will.  It rubs the aesthestist the wrong way, but you could say that about many things in life. The manufacturers are looking at the fat noses as being larger interior space, master cabins etc. Sell on Fast being Sexy etc...... Too much performance gain to ignore for those who don't mind a plain jane ride...... And ugly boats is a long and sordid history.

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2 hours ago, Boink said:

Sorry, but I disagree.

If the new Imoca rule does not address or rule out scow bows, then their march towards wider acceptance is almost inevitable.

The Class 40 has seen how much of a power generating ability it gives them, the mini 650's also, and are probably indicates where the production mass market will head, more than the Imoca's will.  It rubs the aesthestist the wrong way, but you could say that about many things in life. The manufacturers are looking at the fat noses as being larger interior space, master cabins etc. Sell on Fast being Sexy etc...... Too much performance gain to ignore for those who don't mind a plain jane ride...... And ugly boats is a long and sordid history.

There's context to consider here.  Scow bows work fantastically for light and stable boats that tend to plane, the buoyancy of the bow really helps the boat lift.  Not so great for heavier types and not so great upwind in any real seaway either.  I expect this will limit trickle-down to the wider cruiser-racer fleet.

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(sustainable shipping because of a biodegradable plastic bag ... people should tame the green washing a bit really)

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16 hours ago, serialsailor said:

L'Occitane's "picture run" at the beginning of the Vendée Arctique. The "scow bow" seems to regulate the boat's pitch amazingly well, allowing the foils to work at their best incidence all the time.

They seem to have sorted the issue of water haemorrhaging around  the rudders.

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Flatwater but bow is consistently nicely out of the water. Steady. Calm. Not hobby horsing like trying to pivot on a three legged stool. 
 

IMHO if imoca is going to push for automated controlled surfaces as some want, it’ll have to first do another cycle on actuated foil control before rudder elevators that certain interested parties keep wanting to push. 

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AT interview/article with Le Figaro

https://sport24.lefigaro.fr/voile/vendee-globe/actualites/alex-thomson-le-loup-solitaire-du-vendee-globe-court-aussi-apres-le-temps-1008563

-structural problem behind the mast that needs rectifying

-v2 foils are nearly identical

-Hoping to do 20 000nm training with 8000 solo before the start compared to 30 000 as was originally planned

-Has and will do a few training sessions with the pole finistere course au large. 

Basically  it's a literal race against time and not under the best conditions even compared to his opponents. 

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10 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

AT interview/article with Le Figaro

https://sport24.lefigaro.fr/voile/vendee-globe/actualites/alex-thomson-le-loup-solitaire-du-vendee-globe-court-aussi-apres-le-temps-1008563

-structural problem behind the mast that needs rectifying

-v2 foils are nearly identical

-Hoping to do 20 000nm training with 8000 solo before the start compared to 30 000 as was originally planned

-Has and will do a few training sessions with the pole finistere course au large. 

Basically  it's a literal race against time and not under the best conditions even compared to his opponents. 

Yes, also posted that link in the VG2020 thread, but somehow there is a tense issue in the text :

Quote

« Nous avons détecté un potentiel problème de structure dans la coque à l’arrière du mât. Sur ces nouveaux bateaux qui volent plus haut, la zone de la coque qui tape fort la mer n’est plus seulement à l’avant du mât, mais aussi derrière. Les architectes nous ont recommandé de renforcer cette partie située sous les ballasts. On ne sait pas si c’est un vrai problème ou non, mais nous ne pouvons prendre aucun risque. On a donc renforcé la coque de l’intérieur »

Last sentence says "we have reinforced the hull from inside", but then it says "we will go in the yard for 4 weeks", also for the foils, so not sure if that reinforcement is already done or not.. (probably not yet)

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7 minutes ago, serialsailor said:

11th hour reaching on port with their new foil.

No sleep for the off-watch guys!!

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On 7/27/2020 at 7:18 AM, Raptorsailor said:

AT interview/article with Le Figaro

https://sport24.lefigaro.fr/voile/vendee-globe/actualites/alex-thomson-le-loup-solitaire-du-vendee-globe-court-aussi-apres-le-temps-1008563

-structural problem behind the mast that needs rectifying

-v2 foils are nearly identical

-Hoping to do 20 000nm training with 8000 solo before the start compared to 30 000 as was originally planned

-Has and will do a few training sessions with the pole finistere course au large. 

Basically  it's a literal race against time and not under the best conditions even compared to his opponents. 

My biggest concern for Alex is his ability to survive the increasingly uncomfortable nature of the latest gen boats. The younger skippers whilst not as experienced will tolerate the consistently fast conditions better IMO. Hope I'm wrong would love to see him win. No doubt his boat is fast but will he break something? I think yes...

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4 hours ago, terrafirma said:

My biggest concern for Alex is his ability to survive the increasingly uncomfortable nature of the latest gen boats. The younger skippers whilst not as experienced will tolerate the consistently fast conditions better IMO. Hope I'm wrong would love to see him win. No doubt his boat is fast but will he break something? I think yes...

Man's got a fully protected living room, the others have got a shed that isn't even closed off. If anything, that is his biggest advantage this time. 

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4 hours ago, serialsailor said:

11th hour reaching on port with their new foil.

I think a new jib could also do some good. Or maybe a new set of sails. Save the trouble of ordering just one sail. 

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Just now, Raptorsailor said:

I think a new jib could also do some good. Or maybe a new set of sails. Save the trouble of ordering just one sail. 

Kind of like who cares tho - they’ve taken an imoca out of the imoca and put it into a class of nothing by itself. 

 

3 minutes ago, Raptorsailor said:

Man's got a fully protected living room, the others have got a shed that isn't even closed off. If anything, that is his biggest advantage this time. 

Yah - I don’t get the concern. He’s put together a boat that totally shows he’s the only one who foiled across the Southern Ocean and learned something re ergonomics. Meanwhile some other competitor designs have basically started with a traditional cockpit then went back to add layers - which is all good except they still need to make the transition from interior to cockpit. 
 

AT can throw a beanbag in a corner and stare at the instruments and be up at the piano and winch in 5 seconds. 
 

As for age? I think it is definitely a concern if he were older and just getting into imoca or trying to come back - but he’s lived in the boats, he knows what physical fitness he needs to handle the sails. Compared to some skippers making the transition from figaro, class 40 - many of whom have plenty of unknown unknowns re the experience, whereas I think AT has fairly few unknown unknowns at this point. 

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Thomson sent the Imoca class the details of his Whale Pinger, an acoustic repellent installed on its keel that sends sound impulses to keep cetaceans away (Boris Herrmann and Fabrice Amedeo's monohulls are also equipped) . "I have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles in my life and have never seen a container (now detectable via the Oscar system installed on its mast, editor's note). However, I saw a lot of whales. We probably ran into one in the Transat Jacques Vabre. If we can avoid damaging our playground while preserving our boats, there is no hesitation. The design of his boat, drawn by the architectural firm VPLP and inspired by aviation and motor racing with a fully covered and very advanced cockpit, is also a "no brainer". “I can lie down and sleep with my foot on the grinder. Everything is nearby in a perfect position, I am dry. I have never experienced such comfort on an Imoca, ”he swears. If performance also seems to be there with a boat "up to 20% faster than the previous one under certain conditions" - reliability is the key word. “We have to get back to sailing quickly. You can't identify the problems if you don't get out enough. A lot of skippers are faced with this ", notes Thomson, with the fear of seeing this winter" an unprecedented rate of abandonment among new boats. Now is the time to make the last good decisions and to be bold. The boat is performing really well. It feels like we’ve made some very good design decisions”.

“The boat is performing really well. It feels like we’ve made some very good design decisions”..jpg

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1 hour ago, OPAL said:

Thomson sent the Imoca class the details of his Whale Pinger, an acoustic repellent installed on its keel that sends sound impulses to keep cetaceans away (Boris Herrmann and Fabrice Amedeo's monohulls are also equipped) . "I have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles in my life and have never seen a container (now detectable via the Oscar system installed on its mast, editor's note). However, I saw a lot of whales. We probably ran into one in the Transat Jacques Vabre. If we can avoid damaging our playground while preserving our boats, there is no hesitation. The design of his boat, drawn by the architectural firm VPLP and inspired by aviation and motor racing with a fully covered and very advanced cockpit, is also a "no brainer". “I can lie down and sleep with my foot on the grinder. Everything is nearby in a perfect position, I am dry. I have never experienced such comfort on an Imoca, ”he swears. If performance also seems to be there with a boat "up to 20% faster than the previous one under certain conditions" - reliability is the key word. “We have to get back to sailing quickly. You can't identify the problems if you don't get out enough. A lot of skippers are faced with this ", notes Thomson, with the fear of seeing this winter" an unprecedented rate of abandonment among new boats. Now is the time to make the last good decisions and to be bold. The boat is performing really well. It feels like we’ve made some very good design decisions”.

“The boat is performing really well. It feels like we’ve made some very good design decisions”..jpg

Prysmian did one too https://www.prysmianoceanracing.com/news/world-oceans-day/

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10 hours ago, ctutmark said:

Hopefully, they'll help reduce strikes. But with the relative closing speeds of IMOCA60 and whale, luck will still be the dominant player, IMO.

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22 hours ago, serialsailor said:

11th hour reaching on port with their new foil.

Some of this video looks sped-up to me? At this point in the TOR saga 11th Hour would have been better off snapping up one of Gabart's Ultimes....

 

As for AT being able to manage fatigue - some of the latest pictures show him looking pretty lean, it made me think he's might be putting more of an effort into endurance training? Or he was just back from his solo passage and hadn't refuelled yet...

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On 8/2/2020 at 10:45 AM, NZK said:

Some of this video looks sped-up to me? At this point in the TOR saga 11th Hour would have been better off snapping up one of Gabart's Ultimes....

 

As for AT being able to manage fatigue - some of the latest pictures show him looking pretty lean, it made me think he's might be putting more of an effort into endurance training? Or he was just back from his solo passage and hadn't refuelled yet...

Yep, that feels sped-up to me aswell

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Sped up like crazy, the sea doesn't even seem real, around the end.

 

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30 minutes ago, yl75 said:

Sped up like crazy, the sea doesn't even seem real, around the end.

 

Where's a bloody seagull when you need one? ;-)

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image.png.b9341dcd06a05f65cc60abea9221c4ea.png

Nice choice of picture to illustrate below article, kind of still picture shouting speed!

https://www.sail-world.com/news/230626/How-will-they-set-the-(dis)-comfort-cursor

Nothing really new or revolutionary in the article but it sums up pretty well the current state and challenges of the fleet. Some comments:
- Interesting bit about flat sea vs wind speed, this will surely have an impact on polars and routing software.
- Confirm that a boat that can go fast after a proper setup and skipper as passenger rather than continuously active will have a huge advantage.
- Looks like those boats are more prone to skipper injuries, between les predictability of boat movements and bigger shocks, skipper protection has to be considered in the ergonomy.
- Curious to see if we will notice "nitro boost" if a skipper decide to push hard for a couple of days or so to try and make a difference (or make up some lost ground). I guess we could have some yo-yo effect between boats like we had during Vendee Arctic (especially LinkedOut vs Charal/Apivia).

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Interesting interview of Josse, below :

https://www.ouest-france.fr/vendee-globe/vendee-globe-sebastien-josse-nicolas-troussel-sera-dans-le-match-6930821

Especially :

Quote

Et de quel ordre est le fossé entre les Imoca à foils de 2020 et ceux de 2016 ?

Il est aussi significatif que celui qu’il y a entre les bateaux à dérives et les premiers foilers. Le fossé, il est dans les vitesses moyennes. Il y a huit ans, un Imoca avançait à 10-11 nœuds au près, quatre ans plus tard, avec les premiers foilers, on avait gagné deux à trois nœuds au reaching, et avec la nouvelle génération, on a, à nouveau, gagné deux à trois nœuds au reaching. Un bateau comme Corum avance à 14-15 nœuds au près, et dès qu’on choque les écoutes, on arrive vite à 17 noeuds au débridé (près bon plein). L’évolution est vraiment importante entre le près et le vent de travers, on a gagné près de 30 % en vitesse. Aux allures portantes, la différence est moindre. Et en termes de comportement, cela n’a plus rien à voir. Désormais on cherche réellement la sustentation du bateau, et tout le temps, à toutes les allures, même au près.

Après, on parle tout le temps des foils, mais le plan de voilure est aussi très important. On s’est rendu compte avec les Ultimes que la surface de voile ne fait pas toujours avancer plus vite, mais, au contraire, provoque parfois de la traînée aérodynamique, et c’est valable aussi sur les Imoca. En fait, dès que l’on a réussi à décoller, on a moins besoin de surface de voile.

 

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By the way when saying "reaching conditions", which angle does it corresponds exactly ( i mean from which to which)

like in below for instance :

News-2019-02-11-Points-of-Sail-961x1024.

 

Note : equivalent in French :

Schema-allures.jpg

Are there in English you some kind of agreed names for subdivitions for close hauled for instance ? (for sure now one often directly speak of the angle in numbers), how about in Italian, German , Spanish, other ?

 

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^Somewhere Close to Beam, I'd suggest.

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Note : for me now in French "petit largue" as above is almost not used anymore, or merged with "travers" (meaning across), but "bon plein" or "près bon plein" is still used quite a lot

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15 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

^Somewhere Close to Beam, I'd suggest.

like 10° above full beam, 20° below ? or 10 and 10 ?

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Près Bon Plein is what I believe is called sometimes "Oceanic Close Hauled"...

So yeah, you are going against the wind, but you bear off a bit so life is easier on board. Not so much seesaw swinging and not walking on the walls...

 

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Do you still use "petit largue" as above Laurent ? Or have you ever used it ?

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For me, "petit largue" is "close reach". Personal interpretation. I do not claim to have the holy truth here....

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2 hours ago, Laurent said:

For me, "petit largue" is "close reach". Personal interpretation. I do not claim to have the holy truth here....

But the question was whether you use it or not ? :)

(for me I think it was still used for the few dinghy classes I took as a kid, then moved to windsurfing, and "keel boats" later (cruising, some races), where I don't remember it being used.

And in fact on some pages it has disappeared, like  :

https://mersetbateaux.com/voiles-allures-reglages/

or :

https://virtualregatta.zendesk.com/hc/fr/articles/115001500854-Comment-avance-mon-bateau-

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Some people tell me that "full and by" is the English equivalent of "bon plein" or "près bon plein" (that is closed hauled, but not to the max, like 10° away from the max), is that the case ? Or is it a synonym of "close hauled" ?

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3 hours ago, yl75 said:

Some people tell me that "full and by" is the English equivalent of "bon plein" or "près bon plein" (that is closed hauled, but not to the max, like 10° away from the max), is that the case ? Or is it a synonym of "close hauled" ?

Seems to be a much used term in traditional sailing, but not at all in racing, afaik. 

From https://www.nauticed.org/sailingterms#F

Full and by
Sailing into the wind (by), but not as close-hauled as might be possible, so as to make sure the sails are kept full. This provides a margin for error to avoid being taken aback (a serious risk for square-rigged vessels) in a tricky sea. Figuratively it implies getting on with the job but in a steady, relaxed way, without undue urgency or strain.
 
However, in offshore racing, in the longer legs and particulary in less predictable weather, it often is a good gamble to cover more ground and sail into more favourable weather. Best VMG is not always best.
 
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11 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Seems to be a much used term in traditional sailing, but not at all in racing, afaik. 

From https://www.nauticed.org/sailingterms#F

Full and by
Sailing into the wind (by), but not as close-hauled as might be possible, so as to make sure the sails are kept full. This provides a margin for error to avoid being taken aback (a serious risk for square-rigged vessels) in a tricky sea. Figuratively it implies getting on with the job but in a steady, relaxed way, without undue urgency or strain.
 
However, in offshore racing, in the longer legs and particulary in less predictable weather, it often is a good gamble to cover more ground and sail into more favourable weather. Best VMG is not always best.
 

Thanks ! So indeed it looks exactly like it :)

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On 8/1/2020 at 5:44 AM, serialsailor said:

11th hour reaching on port with their new foil.

Does it seem like the new foils has a ventilation problem?  Maybe due to twist increasing the AoA in the very high aspect tip?  Seems at times they are fully ventilating 1/3 of the foil span.  That cannot be fast.

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9 minutes ago, kokopelli said:

Does it seem like the new foils has a ventilation problem?  Maybe due to twist increasing the AoA in the very high aspect tip?  Seems at times they are fully ventilating 1/3 of the foil span.  That cannot be fast.

No worries. They have  ̶O̶n̶e̶ ̶t̶w̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶e̶e̶ indefinite amount of years to solve their problems not participating in any events. 

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true that.

Though I would really like to better understand what we are seeing on the foil.  I know its only 1 short snapshot... and maybe its as simple as wrong AoA trim. 

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The port foil will be fitted next month and will be a completely different design to the starboard foil 

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

TOR talking to the architect willing to talk. 

TOR talking to the architect, desperately trying to repair a damaged reputation (again).

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"JK is bad. All his shit is bad and deadly"!?????

 

So, he's never produced anything worthy of the SA mob, yet wealthy individuals and VG owners still ring him up?

 

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