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6 hours ago, LeoV said:

What are the bubbles for, just behind deck spreader near the C from Corum ?
And the glass work behind/under goose neck looks funky.

Likely to allow a look up at the jib, either with a camera or from inside the boat. 

The fairing behind the mast is interesting, likely an endplate tool.

Anyone have any cockpit pics? Looks like the layout is a bit unique with two winches forward (beneath the computer screen) and two more winches on an island with the island being oriented diagonally 

96515708_2719522014823504_8135112665048547328_o.jpg

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1 hour ago, jb5 said:

Very good question.  They are/were on PRB and the Clubswan as well but not Arkea Paprec I think.  So here goes... Maybe help the water attach to the rudder earlier/faster and reduce disturbance across the rudder surface and provide a cleaner exit with less drag hence improving performance?  Sounds way too technical.  I must be making it up.  They do stuff like that in F1 but the stakes are higher there in terms of performance I would think.  Cannot imagine the gains, if any,  are very measurable on boats, particularly these boats with the ocean conditions, slamming etc.  Not exactly flat water sailing.  Still they must see some benefits.

Rambler 88 also has them, I think there was a discussion in that thread about the benefit / working principle of those but can´t remember what it was. Anyway, since Rambler seems to be performing quite well I guess they must have decided that it works.

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Which regards to the Tubercules on the rudders, the shapes have a higher angle of attack before they stall out. Remember that for boats that are under autopilot for 98-99% of the time - it becomes difficult to be able to tell the AP to wiggle the rudder to reattach flow. So anything that reduces the likelihood of a high speed wipe out from stalled out rudders must be beneficial in maintaining high averages and avoiding the clusterfucks that follow such wipeouts. They do have slightly higher drag profile than those without, but some clever  'gineer will have worked out the numbers and risk analysis.

Boat looks great for a late programme - helpful to have Akea-Paprec as the gen 1 fault finder and bench mark setter. Mer Agitee (MD) know their stuff. Nico is a quick cat too...... Expecting good things from this programme.

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3 hours ago, ctutmark said:

Paul Bieker is also doing similar rudders https://biekerboats.com/project/rudder-tubercles/

 

Just as well they'll mostly stay out of the Sargassum Sea.  That Sargassum Weed would be a bitch to clean off those blades.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/9/2020 at 1:05 PM, Trovão said:

wow, if i ever seen a mast located so aft...

And consequently, the keel foil, to balance centres of effort and lateral resistance. Weather helm certainly shouldn't be a problem. In fact she'll likely steer herself in the right conditions (autopilot aside). ;-)

Edit: Foil cases look to be located a little in front of mast centre.

Edited by Sailbydate
Foil cases
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3 hours ago, Boink said:

Which regards to the Tubercules on the rudders, the shapes have a higher angle of attack before they stall out.

Love the definition of the term "Tubercules"  ....a "warty" growth on plants and animals or in medicine a nodular lesion in the lungs and characteristic of "tuberculosis."

So basically contemporary rudder designs now have a "bacterial disease". Maybe they should have coined a sexier name?

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^^^ Hard also to imagine how effective these 'warty growths' could be, at 25 knots plus - considering a Humpback whale's top speed is about 8 knots. Hopefully someone has done some simulation or tank testing to prove the theory.

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16 hours ago, ctutmark said:

Likely to allow a look up at the jib, either with a camera or from inside the boat. 

The fairing behind the mast is interesting, likely an endplate tool.

Anyone have any cockpit pics? Looks like the layout is a bit unique with two winches forward (beneath the computer screen) and two more winches on an island with the island being oriented diagonally 

96515708_2719522014823504_8135112665048547328_o.jpg

There’s not been much in the way of cockpit pictures apart from a couple of low light shots. The more common type of 4 winch layout was starting to get used by some of the previous boats like Gitana/Malizia in the 3rd photoA88983F3-0225-40AC-B638-D64984907FA5.thumb.jpeg.479f3ad212be4e9a28fa84298dfc4999.jpeg84772888-EF40-4C98-BF81-B44A0D9D4665.thumb.jpeg.3fc9649cf4ca165a75175887014101c3.jpegF48A4911-C921-4913-A9CB-D6A7490D4696.thumb.jpeg.6962a94dd75d4308137f941f72abd589.jpeg

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3 hours ago, JL92S said:

There’s not been much in the way of cockpit pictures apart from a couple of low light shots. The more common type of 4 winch layout was starting to get used by some of the previous boats like Gitana/Malizia in the 3rd photoA88983F3-0225-40AC-B638-D64984907FA5.thumb.jpeg.479f3ad212be4e9a28fa84298dfc4999.jpeg84772888-EF40-4C98-BF81-B44A0D9D4665.thumb.jpeg.3fc9649cf4ca165a75175887014101c3.jpegF48A4911-C921-4913-A9CB-D6A7490D4696.thumb.jpeg.6962a94dd75d4308137f941f72abd589.jpeg

Thanks am familiar with the layout that many of the new boats are using. The angled island it the part that seems most unusual with the grinder pedestal between the two winches on the island. That was what I want to see more of.  With MichDes involved they much have a good reason for what looks to be an asymmetric layout. To a lesser degree even the asymmetric windows in the cabin top carry on the this theme. 

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First sail. 

 

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Think what is interesting about the Tubercules is that JK has them at the tip, yet Bieker has them at the Root. I have read the papers supporting how they allow higher AOA before stall, and it is more supportive of the  Bieker (Root) placement. But these shapes are not new anymore, so it is safe to say that if it was all just fashion over form, then they would have been retired long ago. If I were to spend money on Top notch foil programme - I would choose Bieker over JK. 

Micj Des (Mer Agitee) is super sharp at knowing his stuff. He pioneered Canting Keels in the Mini Transat - 89 or 91, full width deck travellers and vang system, for proper leech control on large roach sails, fanatical about weight saving - Bean Bag for a Vendee being his only comfort. Gave Farr his only Vendee winning design (when he was not considered suitable for vendee style boats) and had developed a Staysail that was a weapon in the South - and has directlt led to Double and Triple Heading Rigs and the move to Code sails rather than Loose Luffed rigs etc etc etc. Oh and has won the VG twice.

When he picks a Jockey, and various other elements - that may appear risky to the onlooker - there will have been some serious and wise decision making going on. As I said, even for a late programme, I expect good things from this programme. Nico is top notch Figaro developed talent. Give him comparative equipment and managed by MD to see results.

Although not designed for it - the freeboard and interior volume of this particular design would lend itself well to a crack at the Ocean race with a crew of 5. Corum used to sponsor fully crewed offshore....... Or is that too much of Linking the Dots in a fanciful way?

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Long video (95% in French) of the boat splashing for the first time.

 

 

Sébastien Josse is part of the techincal team.

An interesting point: is it an open cockpit boat (more conventional) or a closed cockpit boat (like the new Hugo Boss)?

Answer: it is a "closeable cockpit"...

The way I understand it, it is not closed as of today, but they can easily modify it to make it a closed cockpit if it is considered better after a few weeks of navigation...

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13 hours ago, Laurent said:

Long video (95% in French) of the boat splashing for the first time.

 

 

Sébastien Josse is part of the techincal team.

An interesting point: is it an open cockpit boat (more conventional) or a closed cockpit boat (like the new Hugo Boss)?

Answer: it is a "closeable cockpit"...

The way I understand it, it is not closed as of today, but they can easily modify it to make it a closed cockpit if it is considered better after a few weeks of navigation...

Excellent to see Seb involved.  

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On 5/11/2020 at 5:40 PM, GibGibGib said:

somewhat HB-like foils for Corum 

Image

I'd have thought they look a lot more like the papers ones.

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EX1FhzQXsAAzWMO.jpg.049fad78411cd85a7f427f4d8b84b3f9.jpg

Light at the end of the Tunnel

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8 hours ago, huey 2 said:

EX1FhzQXsAAzWMO.jpg.049fad78411cd85a7f427f4d8b84b3f9.jpg

Light at the end of the Tunnel

More like "Weber at the end of the Transom".

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11 hours ago, huey 2 said:

EX0Wgj_WoAEH6hc.jpg

EX0Wgj9XYAAKN_0.jpg

EX0Wgj9XkAAPUuG.jpg

Re-launched with no keel?

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New foils installed 

 

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Have to admit that I had no idea there was a Red Bull magazine. Shouldn't be surprised I guess.

Great exposure for Pip Hare. 

https://issuu.com/redbulletin.com/docs/0620_de_lowres__1_/25?ff

In German. 

https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/theredbulletin/sailor-pip-hare-power-of-life

Pretty sure the above is the same thing in English. 

 

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6 hours ago, jb5 said:

Re-launched with no keel?

Not unheard off, keel off to make life easier on both bits. Put it back on the keel at the yard with the crane or travel hoist. 

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8 hours ago, mad said:

Not unheard off, keel off to make life easier on both bits. Put it back on the keel at the yard with the crane or travel hoist. 

The yard is where she's kept, Initiatives Coeur has a shed at La Base and she's launched and kept there. However the cradle beds are used in the shed, and if I remember rightly from last year she put the keel on with the boat on the beds on a tall cradle, so they probably launch the boat, errect that, put the keel on? Someone who's actually been to la base this year (damn you covid) can probably fless that out more :D

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15 hours ago, jb5 said:

New foils installed 

 

What is the approximate weight of a foil?

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3 hours ago, festus said:

What is the approximate weight of a foil?

250/500 kilos. In that ball park I think. 

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Interesting video from Malizia.

Looks to me like they chopped the bow to prevent burying it on the waves when dropping off the foils:

malizia.JPG

malizia2.JPG

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Teaser from Charal 

 

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Every time I think about these awesome boats I really do feel like Red Bull missed a sponsorship opportunity. I mean if Red Bull gives you wings, it seems like it would love to be on a flying boat. I know they have sponsored other boats in the past, but these are amazing animals.

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14 minutes ago, trimfast said:

Every time I think about these awesome boats I really do feel like Red Bull missed a sponsorship opportunity. I mean if Red Bull gives you wings, it seems like it would love to be on a flying boat. I know they have sponsored other boats in the past, but these are amazing animals.

Wrong demographic. RB would rather sponsor a young surfer or skydiver or wingsuit adventure that creates a 5 minute video. 
 

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

Wrong demographic. RB would rather sponsor a young surfer or skydiver or wingsuit adventure that creates a 5 minute video. 
 

Agree. Following an epic fang around the world by solo sailors would demand far too much time and attention, from the Red Bull demographic. The boats wouldn't even be out of The Bay before they'd be off onto the next virtual thrill. Remember stadium racing?

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11 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Agree. Following an epic fang around the world by solo sailors would demand far too much time and attention, from the Red Bull demographic. The boats wouldn't even be out of The Bay before they'd be off onto the next virtual thrill. Remember stadium racing?

The folks trying to market their way out of reality need to look in the mirror and acknowledge as a sport, we are who we are. 
 

Not going to get short attention span folks to have long term interest in sailing, vacation visits to popup dock by people who couldn’t care less doesn’t count as real “sponsorship opportunity metrics”

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On 5/9/2020 at 11:05 AM, Trovão said:

wow, if i ever seen a mast located so aft...

My first thought exactly!!

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Interview (part one) with Jeremy Beyou. In French. Link below. 

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/course-au-large/vendee-globe/vendee-globe-jeremie-beyou-vous-allez-decouvrir-les-nouveaux-foils-de-charal-faace138-95cb-11ea-abb5-3b5090acc3e0

The new foils do have new wells. VLVP mentioned that they had retained the wells for redundancy. Maybe the old foils can be made to fit or retrofitted. We should see the new foils this week. 

There have been structural changes especially around the keel as a result of learning from the HB issue. Changes came through VLVP. 

They have also made some redundancy changes to the mainsheet system in case of failure of the traveller system as I understand it anyway. 

The other changes center on reliability and ergonomics. Especially in the cabin. The rear section of the cockpit cover that was a late change prior to the TJV has also been redone. It leaked. 

Discusses also the sail selection for the VG with the eight sails limit. The A2 seems to be being dropped. The A3 possibility reshaped to cover some of the gap. They used a code zero on the TJV but maybe too flat for the VG. 

 

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Glad there is continuous dissemination of information thru architects and also imoca class to keep improving boats in performance but also security. 

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21 hours ago, Miffy said:

Glad there is continuous dissemination of information thru architects and also imoca class to keep improving boats in performance but also security. 

Yes. Good to see, Miffy.

Although, to a degree you'd expect that, with boats sharing design inputs. Imagine if Charal had experienced a collision problem with its keel and, after the event, VPLP said, "Oh yeah. We noticed that was a problem with the Hugo Boss crash incident. We actually found a way to fix that. Not sure why we didn't give you a heads-up on that one."  

"What the fuck...?"  ;-)

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http://www.courseaularge.com/vendee-globe-vendee-arctique-sables-dolonne-partira-4-juillet.html

In French, excerpts below:

Vendée-Arctic-les Sables d'Olonne race will depart on July 4th. It will be a solo ocean race of 3,600 miles (6,600 km) around a large culminating triangle on the edge of the Arctic Circle. This event is a real “prologue” for the Vendée Globe. It will allow skippers to test their boat recently out of the yard and, for some, to qualify for the solo round the world trip nonstop and without assistance from November 8.

The race should last ten to twelve days - start and finish in Les Sables d'Olonne - western Iceland and northern Azores. The final list of competitors will be known in early June. The authorization requests are also in progress with the support of the French Sailing Federation. " It will be the only offshore, sporting and technical solo race that the skippers will be able to compete before the start of the Vendée Globe on November 8 and, for that, it was very important that it take place ," explains Jacques Caraës, race director from Vendée-Arctique-les Sables d'Olonne and Vendée Globe. "Sportingly, sailors need to sail in a solitary configuration. Technically, they must validate the modifications made this winter on site. Finally, it will give 11 skippers * the opportunity to qualify for the solo round-the-world race. "

carte-artic-race2.png

* 7 skippers must complete a solo course of 2000 miles, validated by the Race Direction (Alex Thomson, Nicolas Troussel, Sébastien Simon, Sébastien Destremau, Didac Costa, Conrad Colman and Louis Burton). 4 must run and complete the equivalent of a solo trans-atlantic (Kojiro Shiraishi, Armel Tripon, Isabelle Joschke and Clément Giraud).

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Thats an interesting race course, certainly avoids the need for COVID clearances like the transatlantic's would demand, can't imagine the skippers will like it much mind!

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Why would Alex and Conrad need to qualify? They finished the last VG?

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34 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Why would Alex and Conrad need to qualify? They finished the last VG?

From the VG NOR:

Quote

Under article 9.2 herein, in the following cases, an additional qualifying passage of 2,000 nautical miles must be sailed single-handed on the Skipper’s 2020-2021 boat where:

  •   a Skipper qualifies via a two-handed race;

  •   a Skipper qualifies via the Vendée Globe 2016-17;

  •   a Skipper qualifies on a single-handed race but on a boat other than that of the

    Vendée Globe 2020-2021.

 

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Grazie

funny (not really) how things are so out of wack the requirements no one ever has problems satisfying routinely becomes an event

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30 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Grazie

funny (not really) how things are so out of wack the requirements no one ever has problems satisfying routinely becomes an event

I guess the loss of both transats is a real whole in the calendar, racing in France is in general banned until July 31st from what I've read, the mini calendar is a mess!

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The red section of the bow is now larger, did they modify the bow or just the graphics? 

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2 hours ago, ctutmark said:

The red section of the bow is now larger, did they modify the bow or just the graphics? 

Looks different but unsure.

50BF98EA-8620-48E7-B93C-BDB1539FDC35.jpeg

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7 hours ago, ctutmark said:

The red section of the bow is now larger, did they modify the bow or just the graphics? 

They mentioned really quick that they modified the bow in this article  https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/course-au-large/vendee-globe/vendee-globe-jeremie-beyou-vous-allez-decouvrir-les-nouveaux-foils-de-charal-faace138-95cb-11ea-abb5-3b5090acc3e0

"On a travaillé sur l’ergonomie, avons remplacé le textile de la casquette rallongée sur l’arrière par du dur, puis installé une nouvelle étrave. "

translates to  : We worked on ergonomics, replaced the textile of the cap extended at the back with hard material, then installed a new bow.

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It looks much fuller in the bow now, to cushion the landings prehaps?

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I guess it would slam even more on landings; but maybe the goal is to avoid burrying the bow at all cost...

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1 hour ago, Laurent said:

I guess it would slam even more on landings; but maybe the goal is to avoid burrying the bow at all cost...

Appears that Charal has moved towards the Verdier twins (Dalin and Ruyant) but not as far as A. Tripon's Manuard boat. Did DMG-Mori get modified too? Any news when HB is coming out of the shed? 

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16 minutes ago, ctutmark said:

Appears that Charal has moved towards the Verdier twins (Dalin and Ruyant) but not as far as A. Tripon's Manuard boat. Did DMG-Mori get modified too? Any news when HB is coming out of the shed? 

Hard to say but it doesn’t look like it. 

2AC20B9F-A9E7-41E1-BD03-2861556489EB.jpeg

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https://www.charalsailingteam.fr/imoca-charal-remis-a-leau/

 

"we pushed further to gain performance, without ever sacrificing reliability. We modified the general balance of the boat, the bow, the volume of the ballasts, the weight distribution, the bulb weight; we closed the cockpit more, reviewed everything related to energy and electronics, built new foils and the wells that go with them, made a new mast and new sails.  "

On arrival, it is a real V2 of the boat designed by the VPLP firm, in collaboration with the design office of the Charal Sailing Team, which left the Lorient hangar." 

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She flys 

 

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It's as if the designers are in a time warp, like it's 1999. Those archaic knuckle bows that dump tons of water on the deck. Blindness. Charel 2.0 made a minor change, but seemed to focus on the stability (which is half the issue) rather than also the enormous braking effect that happens whenever the bow digs in. There is exactly one that has it right:

image.thumb.png.e22d6131ebb240d6fca8dbf3fd0a93d2.png

 

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I think the foils are all about 15 feet too far aft, which leads to the crashes. Sure, they work in flat water. But the VG is anything but flat water.

The point should not be to fly: that is impossible in a sea way without control over the angle of attack, and the rules prevent control over angle of attack (T rudders). The point should be to reduce archimedes displacement every second while sailing all the way around the planet. Every time the boat loses lift loses minutes. Being in waterline mode is losing by weeks.

It is truly amazing how trapped these IMOCA design teams are by fashion. I mean, its only been a fucking DECADE since:image.png.9643a410bb900edeba759ab7d1f87e76.png

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Wow certainly not modest about criticizing a class of boats that have smashed and will smash sustained speed records for monohulls. 

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6 hours ago, Miffy said:

Wow certainly not modest about criticizing a class of boats that have smashed and will smash sustained speed records for monohulls. 

I think that you will find that the VO70, VO65 and a few IRC monohulls have achieved far higher 24 hour distance records than IMOCA so far. But I do suspect that in the perfect conditions and if we see them in the Ocean Race with full crew, we may see them top the list one day.

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13 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Great interview with Nicho....usual caveat with Niall.

 

Good interview. I don't mind Niall in this setting.

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3 minutes ago, DtM said:

Good interview. I don't mind Niall in this setting.

I'm probably being a bit tough. Takes a long time to get his voice for 8 months out of your head.

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Charal v2 vs v1 foils. Clear of the water. 

 

 

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How often do you see this... 

 

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On 5/20/2020 at 1:21 AM, carcrash said:

It's as if the designers are in a time warp, like it's 1999. Those archaic knuckle bows that dump tons of water on the deck. Blindness. Charel 2.0 made a minor change, but seemed to focus on the stability (which is half the issue) rather than also the enormous braking effect that happens whenever the bow digs in. There is exactly one that has it right:

image.thumb.png.e22d6131ebb240d6fca8dbf3fd0a93d2.png

 

could we also some designers try out proper wave-piercing bows for the next VG ?

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Great pics guys!!

 

Was looking closely at Corum's cockpit layout, alomst looks like a commercial fishing boat with twin heads either side!

Couldn't work it out as the position of the doors meant you couldn't sit to windward and see out of the bubble, but the the last few 3D pics showed it.  It's like an insode/outside seeting position where I'm guessing you could still reach a tiller or/and clutch release if you had to by reaching through the door?

 

 

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Boris' revised boat's launch video.

new, larger foils , reinforced hull, new bow profile, new roof and new electronic equipment. 

 

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V2 flight 

 

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On 5/22/2020 at 5:35 AM, Raptorsailor said:

could we also some designers try out proper wave-piercing bows for the next VG ?

Suspect not.

The conversations within the community is about making the boats faster, but also drier, and happily the scow bows in the Class 40 seem to do both. So L'Occitane represents the current way forward.

With T foil rudders allowing much better pitch control, being widely anticipated in the new rules post VG then maybe the emphasis will switch back to outright pace, but with the need to preserve crew functionality and even under OR shorthanded crews - going a lap underwater is doubly tough. They are certainly not pretty with these scow bows - but they are fast.......

The question remains the fleets apetite for further rounds of foil development, in what are now tough economic times? The current foils are 3-400,000 euros a set. Cant imagine T foils being exactly cheap, and the whole transom of existing boats will have to be redesigned to accept the new systems and loads. Large cost hikes all round. Flirting with the same levels of expense that killed the Orma Trimarans.

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15 hours ago, Boink said:

The question remains the fleets apetite for further rounds of foil development, in what are now tough economic times? The current foils are 3-400,000 euros a set. Cant imagine T foils being exactly cheap, and the whole transom of existing boats will have to be redesigned to accept the new systems and loads. Large cost hikes all round. Flirting with the same levels of expense that killed the Orma Trimarans.

interesting comment from Michel Desjoyeaux  on this:

https://www.tipandshaft.com/en/vendee-globe-2020-2021/michel-desjoyeaux-corum-is-probably-the-boat-i-have-invested-the-most-in/

The class will shortly be looking at the next set of rules. Are you in favour of foils on the rudders that some people want?
You are preaching to the converted. Once you accept foils, and so fly, to be stable you need three legs. You can have two when you regulate the power all the time, as on the AC75, as there are a lot of people there to turn the handles and regulate the transversal stability. When sailing solo, it seems vital to me to have a third leg on the footstool. We didn’t want to do it with the pretext that it cost a lot, but today on foilers, you have a one-design mast that isn’t resistant enough to cope with the foils, as you have to have a mountain of instruments to control them to avoid damage. In the end, you realise that that costs more than if they had authorised rudder foils from the start. When you realise that the limits that have been set are of no use, you have to talk about them again.

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