Luketougas1

Reach legs in PHRF

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what are you're thoughts on reach legs in phrf. I feel that its dumbing down the sport.

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IMHO

It is whatever the new money in the club wants.  They get a spirit boat and want to be told when to gybe.

Sail Safe

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Can be an added element to the course when used in moderation. Some reaching legs that involve crossing tide lines, or having variable wind strength can end up being very tactical.

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28 minutes ago, Luketougas1 said:

what are you're thoughts on reach legs in phrf. I feel that its dumbing down the sport.

Used to be standard practice of course.  The Olympic courses and the gold cup courses even the BBS all included them.

The delights of the jibe mark clusterfucks of years gone by are sorely missed by repair yard owners, protest committees and photographers.

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33 minutes ago, Luketougas1 said:

what are you're thoughts on reach legs in phrf. I feel that its dumbing down the sport.

There are some boats who only make their time on reach legs.  Mostly slow long-water-line boats.

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Sailing on sport boats, we excel when the wind is either very light or very heavy, but get absolutely killed on waterline when it's medium.  Olympic triangles seem to equalize sporties and pole boats across a wind range.

 

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We only sail windward leewards , unless there is a wind shift, then its a reaching race. No one has moved a mark due to a wind shift since the 90's around here....

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1 hour ago, Luketougas1 said:

what are you're thoughts on reach legs in phrf. I feel that its dumbing down the sport.

sailing is supposed to be for fun

reach legs are the fun part of racing for a lot of boats, esp boats that are short/family crewed

every race organizer asks themselves "who is our target market and what will be the most appealing to our constituent base?" the result of that question is often reaching legs.

if i only wanted to do triangles i'd probably get a dinghy/etchells.

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Has it's place I think. Less so in a really good fleet (where everybody is fast) or one design, but particularly at the PHRF level improving steady-state boatspeed is a useful exercise for many programs.

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4 hours ago, Luketougas1 said:

what are you're thoughts on reach legs in phrf. I feel that its dumbing down the sport.

I feel quite the opposite - W/L has dumbed down the sport IMO.   Reaching legs with symms introduce an entirely new set of elements to a race.

Now if a flat triangle is set - i.e the gybe mark is inside your normal reaching angles - then it can be pretty dull.

But if you go from pole on forestay to pole on forestay gybes then you are dealing with things like:

Surviving the gybe in +15 kts tends to separate the men from the buoys - I figured out pretty quickly how to do an "S" turn at the mark after my frac rigged boat spun out for what I think was the one and only time it happened. (I wasn't aware at the time how much torque a big main can generate during a gybe)

Do you try to go over or under another boat?

Do you slow down to avoid a clusterfuck with the pack and give yourself a clean inside lane (I've scooped lots of boats doing that - wouldn't work against pros but often works against your typical club racers)

Luffing matches

Do you sail high then low on the leg, or low then high, or just rhumbline it?

Even setting up for the beat can be a challenge because having the bowman do his thing will  create a bow down attitude that will hurt speed and increase the odds of a wipeout.

 

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Honestly, straight windward leewards have become mind numbingly boring. Same thing, over and over and over and over and over and over, etc.  A little variety is welcome. 

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Reach legs are cool in that they introduce an extra variable. That variable can be challenging to the best of us. I was doing a series in San Diego aboard a well known sled and had quite the eventful mark rounding with our guest helm a fairly well known DC.

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there absolutely _are_ tactical concerns on reach legs - they are not dumbing down the sport

now.., it is certainly possible.., that not everyone is aware that there are tactical concerns on reaching legs...

I have a feeling that they are the people who often don't finish the reach in quite as good a position as they started it.

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W/L are dull after a couple of seasons, hard to recruit crew to show up every regatta.

We've moved almost exclusively to distance races and suddenly we have more crew than we can take

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Some of us are old enough to remember Olympic Triangles 2 weeks out of 3,  & still think that for the majority of fleets they are a good balance.

W/L racing was championed by one design fleets where the chance of passing someone in the same boat on a reach was bugger all & the straight downwind leg gives the following boat a lot of options.  It definitely has its place in these fleets,  but even there the occasional triangle with the fast reaching legs & shy to shy gybe would add interest to a series.

For fleets where you have dissimilar boats which all have different strengths (& particularly if you have a mix of sprit & pole boats), throwing in a few triangles and even a couple of passage style races around whatever local features you have will give all boats a better chance of finding there sweet spot over the course of a series.  So count me as a vote for a few reaching legs.

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On government mark courses or odd club fixed mark courses it sucks when you have a w/l machine (J35) and they have a bunch of reaching boats in your class. No matter how good that weather leg goes you just wave them by when you hit the reach leg. We only have a couple of regattas a year on Tampa Bay that are w/l and we make sure to hit those. (NOOD's and OD races excepted)We have to get while the getting is good.

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5 hours ago, Luketougas1 said:

what are you're thoughts on reach legs in phrf. I feel that its dumbing down the sport.

Previously in So Cal there were references to the types of marks used to determine an RLC race.
Rules have been re-written for some time and I still get people in out area that do not know the current definitions

Here they are.

Quote

2.2 To more accurately reflect the speed potential of boats on different points of sail, PHRF uses a system of THREE RATINGS. The Ratings are designated as the “WINDWARD/LEEWARD COURSE RATING” (W/L), the “RANDOM LEG COURSE RATING” (RLC), and the “OFFWIND COURSE RATING” (OWC), each of which is defined below.

a. W/L Ratings are intended to be used when the course is expected to be primarily windward/leeward legs on courses set in relation to the wind.

b. RLC Ratings are intended to be used when the course type is neither W/L nor OWC.

c. OWC Ratings are intended to be used when at least 2/3 of the course distance is expected to be more than 135 degrees from true wind direction.

So a race like Mailbu and return could and should be a W/L race and not an RLC.

In our area A almost all of our races are W/L but the old knuckle heads still think going around an oil rig that is 8 miles up wind (tacking several times) and the finish is 8 miles down wind (pole is about 4 to 5 ft off the headstay)  is an RLC race based on the old definitions..

This is where US Sailing has failed the sailing public in not setting standards for PHRF, which they are the National Stewards of.

 

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Not going to sell many code 0s or extra big luff jibs just doing w/l's.  Seriously, am with Monkey mixing it up is good. The most popular series around here are the pursuit races around fixed marks = a triangle and courses are reversed each time.  No registration, put up the proper color flag and have at it. Last Saturday worked out that 2 legs were tight reaches and the boats with code 0's rocked it. 

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13 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

Some of us are old enough to remember Olympic Triangles 2 weeks out of 3,  & still think that for the majority of fleets they are a good balance.

W/L racing was championed by one design fleets where the chance of passing someone in the same boat on a reach was bugger all & the straight downwind leg gives the following boat a lot of options.  It definitely has its place in these fleets,  but even there the occasional triangle with the fast reaching legs & shy to shy gybe would add interest to a series.

For fleets where you have dissimilar boats which all have different strengths (& particularly if you have a mix of sprit & pole boats), throwing in a few triangles and even a couple of passage style races around whatever local features you have will give all boats a better chance of finding there sweet spot over the course of a series.  So count me as a vote for a few reaching legs.

^^^^ This. I can remember those days, triangle loop triangle, and triangle loop finish. I am all for variety. Reaching is a skill as well....

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16 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

Some of us are old enough to remember Olympic Triangles 2 weeks out of 3,  & still think that for the majority of fleets they are a good balance.

Unfortunately, I fall into the remember group.  The jibe mark was always fun when things were tight.  

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1 minute ago, d'ranger said:

Not going to sell many code 0s or extra big luff jibs just doing w/l's.  Seriously, am with Monkey mixing it up is good. The most popular series around here are the pursuit races around fixed marks = a triangle and courses are reversed each time.  No registration, put up the proper color flag and have at it. Last Saturday worked out that 2 legs were tight reaches and the boats with code 0's rocked it. 

People forget how much skill is involved in the oddball courses. It takes a lot to get that perfect sail plan sorted out on a goofy angle. I’m not advocating for Olympic triangles, straight W/L’s, or completely random...  Just variety!

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1 hour ago, us7070 said:

there absolutely _are_ tactical concerns on reach legs - they are not dumbing down the sport

now.., it is certainly possible.., that not everyone is aware that there are tactical concerns on reaching legs...

I have a feeling that they are the people who often don't finish the reach in quite as good a position as they started it.

Bingo!

The people who genuinely believe that there's no skill in reaching, or that reaching legs are just a parade, are the guys I can almost always pass on a reach.

I spent most of the 1990s racing Lightnings. Various clubs used different courses, about a third of the time it was W/L with an offest & gate. Then somehow that got to be considered "serious racing" just like the old Olympic Triangle was, back in the day (I personally thought it over-emphasized upwind) and over 4 or 5 years it got to be ALL W/L usually with an offset & gate. Got boring quick. I revisited Lightning racing a couple of times in the '00s and the fleets were much smaller and the racing was.... wait for it..... all W/L with offset & gate.

Reaching is fun. Hell, I do it sometimes even when we're not racing ;)

FB- Doug

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Back in the ‘80s when we were seriously (for us) racing, our club hardly ever ran WLs.  Either small triangles with one offwind leg or a big triangle with essentially a reach and then a run leg.

My fractional rig 30’ boat did ok on the first upwind leg, made out like a bandit on the reach leg, lost ground in the run leg (a 3/4 rig will do that to you in a Wed night dying breeze), and the last upwind leg to the finish depended on how much wind was left, how clean we were at the gybe mark, clean takedown, etc.

Some nights we got buried.  Other nights we won.

Every Fall or club ran a weekend event that was 20+ miles to a different club on Saturday.  Race back home on Sunday.  One year the race back home had winds blowing 20+.  Tight reach all the way home.  Wind kept trying to go forward.  Chute kept flogging.  Took it down, put a reef in the main and barber hauled our 135% #2 to open the slot.  Beat the 35 and 37 footers back home boat for boat.  They kept trying to fly spinnakers and they were either rounding up or flogging the hell out of them.  Despite thst we did not finish all that well as the smaller boats in the fleet were able to save their time.

 

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If you OD folks want to sail your own W/L course, go for it. 

But don't go all lobbyist on us. 

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1u-I.png

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how-to-sail-course-type.jpg

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VWAP,  I am so disappointed. Not for the obvious reason.

But, for the obvious reason.  This is a true triangle course, with a sausage, of course!

"God, I miss the screamin'".

 

Screen Shot 2019-08-13 at 9.25.21 PM.png

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7 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

VWAP,  I am so disappointed. Not for the obvious reason.

But, for the obvious reason.  This is a true triangle course, with a sausage, of course!

"God, I miss the screamin'".

 

Screen Shot 2019-08-13 at 9.25.21 PM.png

Back when people remembered the Olympic course, this was often called a "modified Olympic."

The short upwind legs kinda change the strategy.

FB- Doug

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W/L make sense for a one design fleet. With all boats the same there is little performance difference between boats. It comes down to skill and tactics. A reaching leg turns into a parade with few tactical opportunities.

 
However it is a different story with a mixed boat PHRF race. There you have boats with differing performance criteria, some go to weather well, some reach well. A reaching leg evens things out, allows the the reaching boats to be competitive with the go to weather boats.
 
I refuse to do W/L races in a mixed boat fleet.

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8 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

VWAP,  I am so disappointed. Not for the obvious reason.

But, for the obvious reason.  This is a true triangle course, with a sausage, of course!

"God, I miss the screamin'".

 

Screen Shot 2019-08-13 at 9.25.21 PM.png

It's interesting.  They added gates because they went to windward leeward courses.  When they used olympic triangles like this, it was rare that you had a huge leeward mark pileup because you went around the triangle first and it stretched out the fleet.

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10 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

Back in the ‘80s when we were seriously (for us) racing, our club hardly ever ran WLs.  Either small triangles with one offwind leg or a big triangle with essentially a reach and then a run leg.

 

same here.  I don't recall any W/Ls or even using drop marks for that matter.  Find the best available govt marks for a triangle and send em around.

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19 minutes ago, bloodshot said:

same here.  I don't recall any W/Ls or even using drop marks for that matter.  Find the best available govt marks for a triangle and send em around.

Our club set up its own race course using marks that were put in place for an entire season and then pulled for the winter. N,S,E, W and then NE, SE, etc. put an X mark in the middle and that was where all races started and usually finished.  Very few government marks around and certainly none where you could set up 1 mile legs.

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One challenge we see here, since reaching legs aren't offered much, a lot of boats that don't distance race are not capable of holding a kite on a tight reach. Its may be boat set up or experience but we sure see some awful boat handling and the skippers that dont climb a bit to come off the wind to at least allow the foredeck guys a fighting chance to get a big sym kite down with the pole stuck on the forestay, well , thats just ugly.

I like the variety, I just cring at the carnage.

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All the PHRF racing here is distance courses usually around fixed marks, so mostly reaching with usually only 1 windward leg. We had a jib that was very flat for close hauled sailing, but swapped it out for one with more draft since we're mostly reaching. Big improvement.

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10 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

VWAP,  I am so disappointed. Not for the obvious reason.

But, for the obvious reason.  This is a true triangle course, with a sausage, of course!

"God, I miss the screamin'".

 

Screen Shot 2019-08-13 at 9.25.21 PM.png

image.png.c0d4c44343b616d005fd038db5010165.png

Triangle sausage?

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For some bizarre reason here they are stuck on W/Ls with a closed mid-course start/finish line that is generally so narrow as to not really inhibit anyone's ability to sail ddw. If it's blowing 12-15 the J/35s and Olson 40s are pretty tough to beat, especially when you have a sprit and can't just point at the leeward mark. Once in a blue moon, they do an Olympic course and it's much more interesting. The longer boats still hold their own on waterline, but coming into the jibe mark at speed tends to sort out the skilled and unskilled crews pretty fast.

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I’m gonna state something different.  Some have complained that racing is losing participants, Fleet sizes are down.  

Racing the same courses, the same way every week, BORING.  

The most fun racesa to this old guizzer are races where we go somewhere.  Races when the fleet is actually racing somewhere and not just around some ugly stained, triangular rubber balls, right in front of the club house.  Might it be a possibility that the winds might not fit your boats style of hull or the sails you own or worse, your preferred desires, ADAPT, OVERCOME!  After all, racing is an adaptation of life, getting from one place to another, as quickly as possible, so the goods in your hold will get the best prices.  

Sometimes its there and back which is fine.  Sometimes we have that most horrid of horrid races, a downwind start.  Sometimes it is a mess, but in the end, it is real.  .  

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We're a 40 boat mixed PHRF (48-195) fleet running our 25 buoy races a season on a fixed mark circle.  We have an even mix of Olympic Traingle, W/L, Trapezoid, and Long Trapezoid (an extra loop around the wing marks) courses; 1/4 of our racing legs are reaches.  This seems to work well for us given the mix of boats in our fleet.  In last weekend's W/L orgy (the Verve Regatta) 90% of the boats were one design; including 2 of the 3 1D boats from our fleet plus 4 of our PHRF boats.  The rest of us racing were on a Long Distance port-to-port weekend.  Most of the local racing is one design dominated W/L, we're one of the few options for something else.  What you prefer depends on who you are, what you like, and what boat you're racing.  If you're in a region big enough to have choices make-em.  All our stuff is on the web, Morfracing.net ,if you want to look.

 

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18 hours ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

Reach legs are cool in that they introduce an extra variable. That variable can be challenging to the best of us. I was doing a series in San Diego aboard a well known sled and had quite the eventful mark rounding with our guest helm a fairly well known DC.

Wasn't me Tom haha  I think people like a reaching leg now and then as many people grow tired of the endless W/L.  I think I see more and more interest in the random leg courses as they are fun and challenging and maybe just looking for a different aspect of the sport.  It also brings out those boats that maybe are scared off by the amount of boat handling involved in W/L and that raises participation.

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...Tis the WL that is dumbing down, not to say rather boring.

Nothing better than geographic i.e. semi passage courses with every angle, giving sail selection, trim and tactical considerations, IMO

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On 8/13/2019 at 2:43 PM, Luketougas1 said:

what are you're thoughts on reach legs in phrf. I feel that its dumbing down the sport.

NOT having reaches is what dumbs down the sport. Back in the Day (get off my lawn, etc...) we used all government marks and courses could have all kinds of combinations of reaches, beats, and runs. Some starting lines were static and the start could even be any random point of sail.

That involved learning to sail your boat in any random condition which IMHO was much better than always going a few miles straight up and then straight back - always and forever the same damn thing.

For club level PHRF, as RC I got a lot of positive feedback from sending everyone straight upwind more or less and having the non-spin class go beam reach a bit and come back on a broad reach. DDW in light air jib-and-main on a hot day sucks.

 

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13 hours ago, VWAP said:

1u-I.png

 

13 hours ago, VWAP said:

how-to-sail-course-type.jpg

A lot of those courses are RC intensive and require lots of volunteers.
If it is a big event some can be good.

In most areas the W/L is the easiest. We don't use gates because there are so few boats racing now.

 

13 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

VWAP,  I am so disappointed. Not for the obvious reason.

But, for the obvious reason.  This is a true triangle course, with a sausage, of course!

"God, I miss the screamin'".

 

Screen Shot 2019-08-13 at 9.25.21 PM.png

 

5 hours ago, sailorman44 said:

W/L make sense for a one design fleet. With all boats the same there is little performance difference between boats. It comes down to skill and tactics. A reaching leg turns into a parade with few tactical opportunities.

 
However it is a different story with a mixed boat PHRF race. There you have boats with differing performance criteria, some go to weather well, some reach well. A reaching leg evens things out, allows the the reaching boats to be competitive with the go to weather boats.
 
I refuse to do W/L races in a mixed boat fleet.

 

I remember the triangle. There used to be big pile up at the first reaching mark back then, though all the boats were pigs except the ULDB which were few in number.
I think we could introduce the triangle course again

  1. If it was a single triangle with no downing leg, it would have to be rated as RLC.
  2. If it was a triangle with another Windward and downwind leg, it could be rated either W/L or RLC
  3. If there were several w/l legs with only the 2 reaches, it would have to be rated W/L

Of course that would be in our area using the course descriptions I posted earlier.

The only issue I see is most of the older crews would not want to do reach to reach gybes. Hell, most can barely gybe off the wind.

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PHRF should only do Random Leg courses to align with the random rating process............

W/L courses place a huge premium on handling and boats that are laid out for racing have an unrated advantage. Most PHRF R/C types are just slower at the corners because they are not laid out well for it. 

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On 8/13/2019 at 2:15 PM, Left Shift said:

Used to be standard practice of course.  The Olympic courses and the gold cup courses even the BBS all included them.

The delights of the jibe mark clusterfucks of years gone by are sorely missed by repair yard owners, protest committees and photographers.

Especially when sailing around fixed marks and the wind direction dictates starboard roundings...

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1 minute ago, Remodel said:

Especially when sailing around fixed marks and the wind direction dictates starboard roundings...

Now that is a joy that only a die-hard reader of the collected works of Dick Rose and Dave Perry can truly appreciate.  

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22 hours ago, A3A said:

PHRF should only do Random Leg courses to align with the random rating process............

W/L courses place a huge premium on handling and boats that are laid out for racing have an unrated advantage. Most PHRF R/C types are just slower at the corners because they are not laid out well for it. 

PHRF does expect you have a prepared boat and a crew able to race the boat.

Prepared means:

  • Decent sails, not necessarily Top of the line but decent sails.
  • A clean boat bottom, you want to do it your self with a brush, be my guest but don't expect much.
  • A boat that is rigged, lubed and works
  • Tuned rigging

There are many boats with great ratings that are not race boats but if prepared and sailed will can kick ass. I think Dennis Conner did this in SD and the ED bitched about it.

and of course PHRF is only as good as the volunteers that help for free.

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6 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

PHRF does expect you have a prepared boat and a crew able to race the boat.

Prepared means:

  • Decent sails, not necessarily Top of the line but decent sails.
  • A clean boat bottom, you want to do it your self with a brush, be my guest but don't expect much.
  • A boat that is rigged, lubed and works
  • Tuned rigging

There are many boats with great ratings that are not race boats but if prepared and sailed will can kick ass. I think Dennis Conner did this in SD and the ED bitched about it.

and of course PHRF is only as good as the volunteers that help for free.

To ad to this it helps greatly if you know the right direction to point the bow and can get off the line at the gun on the front row.  People bitch all the time about how the course wasn't square or didn't allow enough of a certain leg for their boat to perform to it's rating or the breeze wasn't right for their boat. B.S. folks.  (I really love the people who race 3 times a year and blame others for their shitty performance). The cream always raises to the top.  The GOOD sailors excel in whatever boat you put them in AND whatever conditions, (unless they make a mistake which happens, but most can fight back to a reasonable position afterward depending on the level of competition).  Reaching legs can be just as tactical as an upwind or downwind.  The GOOD sailor knows when to take the high road or low road as well as how to keep the boat in trim, (both sails and the boat).  People who consistently score low and consistently bitch about all of the above never improve because they just can't grasp they are the reason the finishes are poor.  Until you understand it's you, you'll never do what it takes to improve.

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A clean bottom and newer sails is all you need. The rest is up to you. I'm always amazed at the guys who buy new sails but then never clean the bottom until the next haul out. We have ours cleaned in the water the week before every big event, at least quarterly.

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

To ad to this it helps greatly if you know the right direction to point the bow and can get off the line at the gun on the front row.  People bitch all the time about how the course wasn't square or didn't allow enough of a certain leg for their boat to perform to it's rating or the breeze wasn't right for their boat. B.S. folks.  (I really love the people who race 3 times a year and blame others for their shitty performance). The cream always raises to the top.  The GOOD sailors excel in whatever boat you put them in AND whatever conditions, (unless they make a mistake which happens, but most can fight back to a reasonable position afterward depending on the level of competition).  Reaching legs can be just as tactical as an upwind or downwind.  The GOOD sailor knows when to take the high road or low road as well as how to keep the boat in trim, (both sails and the boat).  People who consistently score low and consistently bitch about all of the above never improve because they just can't grasp they are the reason the finishes are poor.  Until you understand it's you, you'll never do what it takes to improve.

 

42 minutes ago, Mark Set said:

A clean bottom and newer sails is all you need. The rest is up to you. I'm always amazed at the guys who buy new sails but then never clean the bottom until the next haul out. We have ours cleaned in the water the week before every big event, at least quarterly.

All good points.

The comments I really love is someones says "I been sailing for 35 years" . Thinking that makes them qualified to race. I just cringe and say to my self,  Yea, you been sailing not racing.  I always use the analogy, Everyone drives a car, but there is a difference between driving a car and racing a car. But they still think they know how to race. It really is a skill that is learned and some get it right off the bat, others never get it.

Last night at our Wet Wednesday, I put the Cowes Sail GP up for all to see. Before the racer finished some old knuckle head walks up and I comment that they are out in 20 knts of wind and hes says, "It doesn't look windy", I commented back, Are you kidding me. Look at those white caps. He claims he can't see them. So we went in circles until he actually saw how rough it was when the USA did their nose dive. with China doing it too.  Then he started commenting about going on a boat where someone is always asking for the jib to be adjusted. He told me he said to the guy, you get over here and trim, I'm gonna go sit and have a nice sail..........................People are stupid.

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I've sailed at several clubs that always sail, sausage triangle, one club had a "clock " of buoys  with an extra in the middle so they could always set it perfectly...  That very rapidly became boring,  you knew who would lead on each leg,  which boats would do what and when. 

This is why I'm happy with my current club,  we do passage races to one pub or another have lunch and race back.  Or go round the cans outside the club Or go up on to a broad and sail a variety of courses sometimes even sausage triangle.. 

Although the current favourite there is windward mark, leeward mark just off set from the race side start line,  to a different windward mark,  across the top on a reach to a top side mark,  a full run down the side to side leeward mark,  then a reach to a mark behind the start and repeat... 

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With all this discussion, I think it's important to remember that by and large your PHRF rating is based on the boats performance at all point of sail. Unless you are under a PHRF something akin to Clevelands PHRF South Shore where they use a "w/l" rating and a "mixed leg" rating. I think it was mentioned here earlier that some boats need a reach to sail to their rating. I think the bigger sin is when a course is ran without a weather leg.

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On 8/13/2019 at 7:58 PM, Hadlock said:

W/L are dull after a couple of seasons, hard to recruit crew to show up every regatta.

We've moved almost exclusively to distance races and suddenly we have more crew than we can take

++++++11111

W/L beat up the boat, beat up the crew and are mind-numbing.  

And as mentioned PHRF ratings assume reaching legs in its rating computation.  

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Horses for courses... 

If you have a sprit boat, then you probably want W/L where there's a better chance of passing on the downwind due to competitor error, or calling a wind shift (one is luck, then other might be good navigation, often really luck

Skill in SAILING your boat is being able to extract best boat speed over varying conditions,  not just steering a target wind angle & speed and making a clean tack/gybe.

Sailing a reaching leg, especially with geographic wind/tide variation and dealing with different boats/speeds is extremely tactical, choosing to try to roll someone or slide underneath, going into deeper water/current chasing a wind angle/hoped for shift or hugging the shore. Do it in < 5 kts TWS and you learn an awful lot about keeping your boat moving. 

Outsailing a bunch of boats that give you > 50 sec a mile? priceless

 

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2 hours ago, The Q said:

 go up on to a broad and sail a variety of courses sometimes even sausage triangle.. 

 

Can't help but think re-phrasing that for the international audience might help.

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4 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

 

All good points.

The comments I really love is someones says "I been sailing for 35 years" . Thinking that makes them qualified to race. I just cringe and say to my self,  Yea, you been sailing not racing.  I always use the analogy, Everyone drives a car, but there is a difference between driving a car and racing a car. But they still think they know how to race. It really is a skill that is learned and some get it right off the bat, others never get it.

Last night at our Wet Wednesday, I put the Cowes Sail GP up for all to see. Before the racer finished some old knuckle head walks up and I comment that they are out in 20 knts of wind and hes says, "It doesn't look windy", I commented back, Are you kidding me. Look at those white caps. He claims he can't see them. So we went in circles until he actually saw how rough it was when the USA did their nose dive. with China doing it too.  Then he started commenting about going on a boat where someone is always asking for the jib to be adjusted. He told me he said to the guy, you get over here and trim, I'm gonna go sit and have a nice sail..........................People are stupid.

FIFY.

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Strick W/L sausages are great for refining starting tactics, optimizing upwind and downwind VMG and efficiency in maneuvers. All very valuable disciplines.  But, reach legs get you thinking about filling that hole in your polars from 60 TWA to 115 TWA. 

I race around the buoys to sharpen my skills for offshore. Variety is a good thing.

 

 

 

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If we were playing darts, W/L is 501. Everything else is cricket. 

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Just finished ILYA Bay Week, which sent us around the Lake Erie Islands, all points of sail 

heard no complaints - least of all from us on PH's S2 7.9 

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58 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

FIFY

Wouldn't it be called a reach around . Whatever that is 

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6 hours ago, Lowly Crew said:

Can't help but think re-phrasing that for the international audience might help. 

"go up"   to sail Up river,

" on to"   floating not sinking,

 "a broad", An open expanse of water, not an American woman of possibly ill repute,

" and sail" to be propelled by the wind,

" a variety of courses" alternate choices of travelling on water in different directions,

" sometimes even " Occasionally.

"sausage "  a cylindrical meat product usually made from Ground Meat, often Pork, Beef, or Veal, along with salt, spices and other flavourings, and breadcrumbs, encased by a skin.  You sail round a course that is a shape similar to the length ways shape of the sausage.

"triangle"..  a shape with three sides which has at least two sides the same length..

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Yeah, I've seen many an experienced ocean racer to knows fuck all about competitive sail trim.

Continues to surprise me.

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8 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Horses for courses... 

If you have a sprit boat, then you probably want W/L where there's a better chance of passing on the downwind due to competitor error, or calling a wind shift (one is luck, then other might be good navigation, often really luck

Why would a sprit boat prefer W/L? Most sprit boats are slow on a run compared to boats with a spinnaker pole. All sprit boats do better on a reach as long as they are able to carry a kite.

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46 minutes ago, Joakim said:

Why would a sprit boat prefer W/L? Most sprit boats are slow on a run compared to boats with a spinnaker pole. All sprit boats do better on a reach as long as they are able to carry a kite.

Because that leg is a waste of time and talent. Just a drag race straight down the rhumb line. Unless there is some huge unpredictable wind shift, or something, then it becomes a mere test of equipment...like a auto drag race.

Perhaps it could be talentless way to exploit the weakness of the handicap system. Is that what you are saying? That’s pretty boring.

The PHRF races at Huntington Lake, CA throw in one short reach in the otherwise very tactical W/L regatta. It is principally for the nearby spectators to watch the carnage of boats trying to carry a spinnaker. Big fun, but pointless from a formal race perspective.

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1 hour ago, El Boracho said:

Because that leg is a waste of time and talent. Just a drag race straight down the rhumb line. Unless there is some huge unpredictable wind shift, or something, then it becomes a mere test of equipment...like a auto drag race.

Perhaps it could be talentless way to exploit the weakness of the handicap system. Is that what you are saying? That’s pretty boring.

The PHRF races at Huntington Lake, CA throw in one short reach in the otherwise very tactical W/L regatta. It is principally for the nearby spectators to watch the carnage of boats trying to carry a spinnaker. Big fun, but pointless from a formal race perspective.

I thought LionessRacing meant that it would be beneficial for sprit boats to have W/L. They certainly do not get a handicap benefit from a run. They would get a huge handicap benefit from a reach suited for their jibe angle. Same would happen on W/L course where the run is not dead downwind but say 150 deg. A spinnaker boat would loose totally its benefit to run deep.

I find W/L more interesting than traditional olympic course with reach legs. It is also interesting to race in an archipelago with mixed legs. There you have the tactical challenges how to pass each island. But most countries do not have an archipelago. E.g. this was a very interesting 21 NM race with 50 boats chasing start.

https://www.instagram.com/barosundrunt/

banbeskr.jpg

 

 

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Geez, I don't know what some of you guys determine a 'reaching' leg, but I find it every bit as challenging as windward/leeward, and I own a reaching boat. 

An extra 5 degrees of heel can cost me a reaching leg.

Sail leaches not matched can cost me a reaching leg.

Inattention to tides and wind effect from islands will cost me a reaching leg.

5 degree shift can cost me a reaching leg. 

Inattention to crew weight can cost me a reaching leg. 

I love them because:

  • of the variety. In actual fact I haven't sailed a W/L in the last 2 years because the crew would all mutiny and we've all been there and done that, boring as fuck. Passage racing almost exclusively, even if it's only 20nm around the bay.(I don't own a OD boat you can tell.)
  • they're fast, And fun. A leg where you can do max boat speed and max VMC for a fucking change. And the crew are grinning and yahooing.
  • they're rarely the same. Try saying that for W/L's.

Shame on me, imagine wanting to have fun racing.

The horror. 

 

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Shaggy anyone with a boat like yours would say the same thing, that's understandable.

The worst aspect of reaching legs immediately off the top mark is that it extends to the distance to second place by what can be a ridiculous amount.   Six-ish knots to windward @ 45 deg Vs 10 knots reaching on exactly the course to the next mark.  That effectively can mean race over, no tactics left, no passing lanes, do not collect $200 go directly to Jail.

I enjoy passage racing, I really do, but it's usually just a drag race and I get bored on ocean races.  I'd rather engage the brain and use skills to go round the cans thanks.  W/L is the go.

BTW what's with selling the boat? (asks I who sold mine last year.)

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8 hours ago, Joakim said:

Why would a sprit boat prefer W/L? Most sprit boats are slow on a run compared to boats with a spinnaker pole. All sprit boats do better on a reach as long as they are able to carry a kite.

Because Gybing at MaxVmg TWA spreads the fleet out by choices of first gybe, and gives the navigators a more important role than otherwise.  

In a point to point race, or a reaching leg that is less TWA than Max Vmg, where there's not a need to gybe, then it's not a matter of when you tack/gybe and not screwing it up, but a matter of sailing the fastest leg, with the drama of faster boats trying to pass slower ones. 

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12 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Just finished ILYA Bay Week, which sent us around the Lake Erie Islands, all points of sail 

heard no complaints - least of all from us on PH's S2 7.9 

Well there were lot's of complaints, just none about sailing around the islands :)

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15 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Just finished ILYA Bay Week, which sent us around the Lake Erie Islands, all points of sail 

heard no complaints - least of all from us on PH's S2 7.9 

You didn't hear me complain because I was not there. I'll never go back to that hell hole, especially to do nothing but a lap of those islands and have the wind shut off at 11

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10 hours ago, random said:

Shaggy anyone with a boat like yours would say the same thing, that's understandable.

The worst aspect of reaching legs immediately off the top mark is that it extends to the distance to second place by what can be a ridiculous amount.   Six-ish knots to windward @ 45 deg Vs 10 knots reaching on exactly the course to the next mark.  That effectively can mean race over, no tactics left, no passing lanes, do not collect $200 go directly to Jail.

I enjoy passage racing, I really do, but it's usually just a drag race and I get bored on ocean races.  I'd rather engage the brain and use skills to go round the cans thanks.  W/L is the go.

 BTW what's with selling the boat? (asks I who sold mine last year.)

G'day Random.

I hear you about when the reaching leg negates the whole race, but in reality I rarely ever see a leg where I look at it and think wahoo! Out of all the races in the last year I can think of one race that was as you describe, where the reach negated all the hard work on the other legs. A reach for us usually means peeling from your kite back to a headsail then back to a kite, or peeling from a reaching kite to a vmg then back again as you dodge islands, shipping, marks of the course, it's normally a lot more work on sail changes.  

W/L's once or twice a year is good fun as it's a novelty. In our last Hammo we won the W/L component of the week pretty easily, but it wasn't that tactical, after the first race you knew which side was favored and we all headed that way each time, the excitement only came from whether the asym boys would beat the sym boys to the bottom mark.

I like spending nights in the lead up to a race having to make passage plans, trying to map out wind shifts and tidal influence and wind strengths in order to determine where you'll be vs where you need to be. I admit I don't do anything like the planning for a WL as there isn't much to do, you go out, ping the startline, do a dummy run to gauge wind , then its all about jockeying for the best spot on the start line. Fun in small doses, but not fulfilling.

Congrats on the sale mate, I can't get even the broker to tell me what he wants to charge me, and I'm not signing until he does. I'll give it another few weeks then try and find another one. A Vic broker is pretty keen as the short handed scene is growing legs down south, so there is some opportunity there.. 

  

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On 8/15/2019 at 12:18 PM, Meat Wad said:

 

All good points.

The comments I really love is someones says "I been sailing for 35 years" . Thinking that makes them qualified to race. I just cringe and say to my self,  Yea, you been sailing not racing.  I always use the analogy, Everyone drives a car, but there is a difference between driving a car and racing a car. But they still think they know how to race. It really is a skill that is learned and some get it right off the bat, others never get it.

Last night at our Wet Wednesday, I put the Cowes Sail GP up for all to see. Before the racer finished some old knuckle head walks up and I comment that they are out in 20 knts of wind and hes says, "It doesn't look windy", I commented back, Are you kidding me. Look at those white caps. He claims he can't see them. So we went in circles until he actually saw how rough it was when the USA did their nose dive. with China doing it too.  Then he started commenting about going on a boat where someone is always asking for the jib to be adjusted. He told me he said to the guy, you get over here and trim, I'm gonna go sit and have a nice sail..........................People are stupid.

23 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

FIFY.

homer-doh.gif.53ee83d41c101be75890f40b41a1b821.gif

14 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Geez, I don't know what some of you guys determine a 'reaching' leg, but I find it every bit as challenging as windward/leeward, and I own a reaching boat. 

The horror. 

 

I agree, we  trophy'd many times  on reaching courses like Ensenada, MDR to SD and the SB2KH  because we cross sheeted and the trimmer and driver got in sync.

It all depends on how excited you are about winning.

And I'd go against any Sprit boat in a W/L race in my boat anyday.

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27 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

And I'd go against any Sprit boat in a W/L race in my boat anyday.

Yep, no argument there.

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4 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

I can't get even the broker to tell me what he wants to charge me, and I'm not signing until he does

Same thing happened to me.  He said "your boat will sell itself".  Interesting, I thought that would mean it would be easy for him to sell ... nuh.

So I listed it on Boatpoint/boatsales whatever (they all seem the be the same) and he was right, it did.  Saved a shit tonne.

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Shaggy, sell it yourself.  Save 8% commission and anyway you know your boat better than any broker ever will.

Give the commission as a discount and you are still in a better place.

everyone looks at the internet to buy a boat. Why would people look at a broker's ad more than yours???

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We mostly do WL on Wednesdays with the occasional T or TWL, but on weekends, we race around islands and government marks. I enjoy the weekend variety, but I find that buoy T and TWL just result in a parade on the reaches. I like gybing!

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