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I was at a regatta this weekend and the Z-Flag was displayed during the starting sequence.

We managed to screw up and be OCS again anyway, along with a bunch of other boats. However, there was no "X" flag to indicate that someone was over early, so we did not go back and restart.

I can understand that no X flag is needed for U or Black, because boats are DSQ without a hearing anyway, so you can't fix the DSQ, so no need for the RC to bother indicating that coming back is a good idea. But I was under the impression that you can fix an OCS under the Z-Flag and get only the penalty 20%, so the X-flag should be raised if someone is OCS under Z. Am I right?

Secondly, if you are over early and it's a U or black, then knowing that "someone" is over early and getting the usual hails on the radio would be helpful because you are not supposed to carry on racing anyway. You can stop racing and have a sandwich. Is it usual or sensible for the RC to stop using the individual recall flag or calling boat numbers under U or Black?

 

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My take, which is worth every dime you are paying for it:

Rule 29.1 (individual recall) does not apply when rule 30.3 (U) or 30.4 (black) apply.  While it's nice to let the guilty parties know that they may as well open the bar, an individual recall isn't the appropriate way to do so. 

30.1 (I) and 30.2 (Z) are deterrents to those who have a fondness of dip-starting.  30.2 is not a "start 1 minute ahead of everyone else for the price of a penalty" rule -- you still have to start properly and therefore 29.1 still applies.

Related (somewhat)....this past weekend's SIs stated that a boat which failed to start properly (including OCS) could continue racing and be assessed a 10% penalty.  The Individual recall was still raised, but a competitor could ignore it if they wanted.

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Xray only applies to no flags or I flag. Under Z, you can't "fix" your over early - you receive a 20% penalty for being OCS within a minute of your start so if Z is flying and you're over early you may as well keep going because you'll get 20% without a hearing if they know it's you.

I've seen races where under U or Black, the mark boat lets the boat(s) know at the first windward mark. I think I saw that in the Star worlds. There's no need for X on a U or Black since you can't clear yourself anyway, and the rules don't specifically state that a disqualified boat needs to be notified.

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3 minutes ago, Que said:

Related (somewhat)....this past weekend's SIs stated that a boat which failed to start properly (including OCS) could continue racing and be assessed a 10% penalty.  The Individual recall was still raised, but a competitor could ignore it if they wanted.

I'm assuming this was a race for fun because the SI's can't actually do that. Rule 86.1 - those SI's changed a Definition.

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45 minutes ago, ryley said:

Xray only applies to no flags or I flag. Under Z, you can't "fix" your over early - you receive a 20% penalty for being OCS within a minute of your start so if Z is flying and you're over early you may as well keep going because you'll get 20% without a hearing if they know it's you.

Hmm, the way I read the rules is that if you're over early (in the final minute) on a Z flag start you get a 20% penalty (no "fixing" that) but you still have an obligation to start properly (entirely on the pre-start side of line before or at your starting signal). A boat that's over early on a Z start which does not return and start properly would be scored OCS.

Note that it's possible that a boat could be over within the 1 minute (breaking 30.2) but return entirely below the line at say the 30 second mark and still start properly at the starting signal.

But as I read 29.1, the RC should display the X flag for individual recall in a P, I or Z flag start, and remove it when anyone who was over at the start signal has cleared. Rule 30.2 (Z flag) doesn't replace or turn off 29.1 (U and Black do).

So I think OP describes an error of the RC for which redress could be requested.

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3 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Hmm, the way I read the rules is that if you're over early (in the final minute) on a Z flag start you get a 20% penalty (no "fixing" that) but you still have an obligation to start properly (entirely on the pre-start side of line before or at your starting signal). A boat that's over early on a Z start which does not return and start properly would be scored OCS.

Note that it's possible that a boat could be over within the 1 minute (breaking 30.2) but return entirely below the line at say the 30 second mark and still start properly at the starting signal.

But as I read 29.1, the RC should display the X flag for individual recall in a P, I or Z flag start, and remove it when anyone who was over at the start signal has cleared. Rule 30.2 (Z flag) doesn't replace or turn off 29.1 (U and Black do).

So I think OP describes an error of the RC for which redress could be requested.

There was something really weird about the scoring at that regatta anyway. There was no X flag or sound for the recall in race 4 under Z, multiple boats were over and no-one went back, yet the scoring is ZFP for five boats (including us).  We didn't ask for redress for the lack of an X flag, because if we lost that, we would also have sensitized the RC to the proper rules (as we understand them) for the Z Flag, and we would have been DSQ'ed for OCS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ryley said:

Xray only applies to no flags or I flag. Under Z, you can't "fix" your over early - you receive a 20% penalty for being OCS within a minute of your start so if Z is flying and you're over early you may as well keep going because you'll get 20% without a hearing if they know it's you.

lol, what would stop half the fleet starting 5 minutes early and still getting  better score than they usually would? 

Read the definitions, if you don't sail through the start line after the start gun, then you haven't started and are therefore OCS. Under all the starting rule you have to start.  

X flag doesn't apply to black or U-flag, where you are disqualified and therefore there is no point signalling boats to come back. . 

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9 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

lol, what would stop half the fleet starting 5 minutes early and still getting  better score than they usually would? 

Read the definitions, if you don't sail through the start line after the start gun, then you haven't started and are therefore OCS. Under all the starting rule you have to start.  

X flag doesn't apply to black or U-flag, where you are disqualified and therefore there is no point signalling boats to come back. . 

I agree - this makes logical sense to me. If you are over and at least part of the penalty can be repaired, then they should do the X-Flag thing so you know that "someone" is physically over and can take steps to correct. If they keep X down, then you can assume all-clear and they should not assess penalties.

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3 hours ago, ryley said:

Xray only applies to no flags or I flag. Under Z, you can't "fix" your over early - you receive a 20% penalty for being OCS within a minute of your start so if Z is flying and you're over early you may as well keep going because you'll get 20% without a hearing if they know it's you.

I've seen races where under U or Black, the mark boat lets the boat(s) know at the first windward mark. I think I saw that in the Star worlds. There's no need for X on a U or Black since you can't clear yourself anyway, and the rules don't specifically state that a disqualified boat needs to be notified.

Sorry Ryley, you couldn't be more wrong

Z flag penalty is an additional penalty additional to the requirement for a boat to start in accordance with the definition of start.

Under a Z flag, a boat that is over early, in the triangle, and does not return and start according to the definition of start is OCS and scored accordingly.

Race Management Manual M3.6 Z Flag Rule, last paragraph

Note: if boats infringe the Z Flag Rule, but there is no General Recall, those boats will receive an Individual Recall and will be treated under RRS 29.1 and RRS 30.2. So boats deliberately starting early will have no advantage except that they might interfere with other competitors heading for a good start.

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1 hour ago, Wet Spreaders said:

I agree - this makes logical sense to me. If you are over and at least part of the penalty can be repaired, then they should do the X-Flag thing so you know that "someone" is physically over and can take steps to correct. If they keep X down, then you can assume all-clear and they should not assess penalties.

They should do the X flag thing because the rules require it.

But breaking the Z flag rule doesn't necessarily mean that you're over early at the starting gun. So it's perfectly reasonable for a boat to assume that they could have been on the course side within a minute of the start (breaking 30.2 and incurring a 20% penalty), but according to the signals of the RC all boats were entirely on the pre-start side at the gun and started properly.

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3 hours ago, ryley said:

I've seen races where under U or Black, the mark boat lets the boat(s) know at the first windward mark. I think I saw that in the Star worlds. There's no need for X on a U or Black since you can't clear yourself anyway, and the rules don't specifically state that a disqualified boat needs to be notified.

This sounds well-intentioned but potentially problematic. I can see where it's a good idea to try to get DSQ boats off the course. But suppose the mark boat notifies a boat at the first windward mark and they continue to sail the course knowing that they are DSQ? Are they potentially impacting the fairness of the competition between boats still competing? Could they be vulnerable to a Rule 2 protest?

Alternatively suppose a boat hears her sail number called and is positive that she didn't break 30.3 or 30.4 (like maybe she was a second or third row starter and the RC must have recorded the wrong sail number)? If such a boat continues to sail the race and finish she might put herself in a better position for fair redress (might get finishing place instead of average scores or something).

If the RC is going to do those notifications I think I'd want an SI, something like a boat which is notified by the RC of DSQ under 30.3 or 30.4 and does not promptly retire will be scored DNE. Probably shouldn't do that without a hearing though, boat might have a valid argument that they didn't hear their sail number called, or the innocent boat above might again choose to continue to sail and request redress for the DSQ/DNE.

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It used to always be the case that BFDs were pulled at the windward mark with numbers one the board and the boat whistling you. I thought this was good because it stopped them from interfering with racing.   But the practice seems to have gone away. The problem was the numbers were often not legible on the board from a distance and often the boat would go on sailing unawares and cop a DNE, then request for redress (for the non-excludable part, the BFD would still stand). If the rib calling boats chased down the BFD boats then their wash often causes more disruption than letting them sail the course. 

Between general recalls the BFDs are often up on a board, but here people have the opportunity to sail close to the bard and get a good look at the numbers. 

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Yeah of course you are all right - regardless of the 20% penalty you still have to Start. I wasn't thinking when I wrote that.

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Quote
29.1. Individual Recall
 
When at a boat's starting signal any part of her hull, crew or equipment is on the course side of the starting line or she must comply with rule 30.1, the race committee shall promptly display flag X with one sound.  The flag shall be displayed until all such boats have sailed completely to the pre-start side of the of the starting line or one of its extensions and have complied with rule 30.1 if it applies, but no later than four minutes after the starting signal or one minute before any later starting signal, whichever is earlier. If rule 30.3 or 30.4 applies this rule does not.
 
...
 
30.2. Z Flag Rule
 
If flag Z has been displayed, no part of a boat’s hull, crew or equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal. If a boat breaks this rule and is identified, she shall receive, without a hearing, a 20% Scoring Penalty calculated as stated in rule 44.3(c). She shall be penalized even if the race is restarted or resailed, but not if it is postponed or abandonedbefore the starting signal. If she is similarly identified during a subsequent attempt to start the same race, she shall receive an additional 20% Scoring Penalty.

There's no making up for the penalty under Z flag start, thus no reason to fly X flag. It is strange though that 29.1 mentions that X flag doesnt apply to U or Black flag starts, but doesnt mention Z flag starts. 

EDIT:

Quote

My take, which is worth every dime you are paying for it:

Rule 29.1 (individual recall) does not apply when rule 30.3 (U) or 30.4 (black) apply.  While it's nice to let the guilty parties know that they may as well open the bar, an individual recall isn't the appropriate way to do so. 

30.1 (I) and 30.2 (Z) are deterrents to those who have a fondness of dip-starting.  30.2 is not a "start 1 minute ahead of everyone else for the price of a penalty" rule -- you still have to start properly and therefore 29.1 still applies.

Good point, but i cant find this in the rules thought it must be true.

EDIT 2: of course its in the definitions:

Quote
Start
 
A boat starts when, having been entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal, and having complied with rule 30.1 if it applies, any part of her hull, crew or equipment crosses the starting line in the direction of the first mark.

 

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1 hour ago, Mark Set said:

There's no making up for the penalty under Z flag start, thus no reason to fly X flag. It is strange though that 29.1 mentions that X flag doesnt apply to U or Black flag starts, but doesnt mention Z flag starts. 

It actually makes perfect sense when you think about it. Z flag violation and OCS are two separate events. A boat can break 30.2 any time during the final minute before the start and incur an uncorrectable 20% penalty. But they aren't OCS unless they're still OCS at the starting gun, at which point they incur a separate OCS penalty. Since OCS under I and Z flag starts is correctable by returning and starting correctly, the individual recall signal is appropriate and necessary.

In a U or  Black flag start the boat is DSQ as soon as 30.3 or 30.4 are broken (again, any time in the final minute) so whether they're OCS or not at the starting gun is irrelevant and no individual recall is needed.

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