socalrider

Summer Pacific Coast bashing comfort: 50' mono vs 40' cat vs trawler

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So it seems I've succeeded in getting the wifey hooked on several aspects of cruising over the summer as we've had a nice trip to Catalina and a great week in the San Juans.  We also regularly go down to Mexico & would love to take a boat there.  She's up for a few months over the summer with our 3 kids as a next step so I'm daydreaming on ways to make that happen.  The rational thing to do would probably be to bareboat charter, but I'm contemplating alternatives for longer passages, and to make the trip to the channel islands more fun so we can do it more often.  

The issue: bashing to windward at 6kts overnight with a noisy Perkins 4108 in the center of the boat is not much fun to Catalina (75nm) let alone the 1100nm+ from PV to SD or (yikes) PNW .  The truth of it is my family loves being on the boat, but doesn't particularly care about sailing one way or another.  Wife hates heeling.  

I never thought I'd consider a trawler but for going up the coast a big heavy beast seems appropriate - but could even a 50' trawler do the Baja bash in a modicum of comfort?  I'm thinking I'd look for a decent window as late in the season as I was comfortable & go straight for 4-6 days.  

I suspect bashing to windward in a 40' cat is not massively better than in a 40' mono but have no experience.  Any guidance there?  

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this is a great topic.

i’ve always thought using the baja bash is a great benchmark for selecting a boat.

we’ve been commuter cruising west coast of mex for the last 7 years and my thoughts often turn to what the bash back up would be like in my valiant 37. 

luckily i see no reason to return the boat to socal. already cruised socal for 25 years and we love mex.

so no help from me on this subject other than passing on some observations:

1) an experienced basher told me i would put more stress on my boat in a bash than in 2 years of cruising.

2) i think “comfortable boat” is an oxymoron. crew and owner need to accept that. i think that should temper your boat selection process.

3) no reason to have your family members on board for the difficult delivery legs. have them meet you and a pickup crew that like the challenges of the hard/dicey stuff, at the destination. then cruise locally with your family at the cool destination. repeat.

 

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11 minutes ago, ChuteFirst said:

this is a great topic.

i’ve always thought using the baja bash is a great benchmark for selecting a boat.

we’ve been commuter cruising west coast of mex for the last 7 years and my thoughts often turn to what the bash back up would be like in my valiant 37. 

luckily i see no reason to return the boat to socal. already cruised socal for 25 years and we love mex.

so no help from me on this subject other than passing on some observations:

1) an experienced basher told me i would put more stress on my boat in a bash than in 2 years of cruising.

2) i think “comfortable boat” is an oxymoron. crew and owner need to accept that. i think that should temper your boat selection process.

3) no reason to have your family members on board for the difficult delivery legs. have them meet you and a pickup crew that like the challenges of the hard/dicey stuff, at the destination. then cruise locally with your family at the cool destination. repeat.

 

#3

 

and don't forget, you don't have to be there either. 

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After chartering a nice little Bene mono in Belize, I would say upwind is NOT what you'd want to so with a boat laden down with the appropriate boat toys, bimini and dinghy. 


Motorsail at 5 knots, anyone? Bueller?

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13 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

How much upwind work is planned? This is important.

A lot.  Getting to anywhere north from SD is straight upwind into the current and swell.  Same with getting from PV or Cabos up to SD.  Days and days.  And in the summer the winds aren't really strong or consistent enough to make progress downwind under sail, so you end up motoring south as well... 

This is why the trawler becomes appealing.  Motorsailing doesn't work if the wind's at 0 or 180.  

 

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19 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

#3

 

and don't forget, you don't have to be there either. 

Yeah, that's an option as well... What would a delivery skipper charge for making the bash?  

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52 minutes ago, socalrider said:

A lot.  Getting to anywhere north from SD is straight upwind into the current and swell.  Same with getting from PV or Cabos up to SD.  Days and days.  And in the summer the winds aren't really strong or consistent enough to make progress downwind under sail, so you end up motoring south as well... 

This is why the trawler becomes appealing.  Motorsailing doesn't work if the wind's at 0 or 180.  

 

Cruising cats are miserable bashing into waves big enough to hit the bridge deck. BTDT. I am on the other coast, so maybe ask around about what kind - if any - cats can do that kind of thing on those trips without BANG BANG BANG.

If you have the $$$$ a Dashew Sundeer type boat would probably work better than anything else.

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I've done a lot of trips along SoCal - many deliveries Cabo North and up to San Francisco. I'd get a trawler. Almost all the trips involved a lot of worry about fuel load. Winds are just not reliable, either direction or force. When it's bad, you just need to sit at anchor - I've passed a lot of boats that tried to force their way North,  usually see them returning later beat up & broken, or pass them parked up in some sketchy anchorage, beat & broken. When the weather's good you need to be able to move quickly/dependably.

   Reading the article above about a Nordhaven: they did not plan/adapt their trip well, and suffered for it. 

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

If you have the $$$$ a Dashew Sundeer type boat would probably work better than anything else.

Yeah, an FPB64 would be perfect.  But I'd need a pretty big windfall to swing something like that.  I'd really like to stay under 54' so I can put it on a mooring ball in SD if needed, and to keep the expenses non-ludicrous.

 

28 minutes ago, longy said:

I've done a lot of trips along SoCal - many deliveries Cabo North and up to San Francisco. I'd get a trawler. Almost all the trips involved a lot of worry about fuel load. Winds are just not reliable, either direction or force. When it's bad, you just need to sit at anchor - I've passed a lot of boats that tried to force their way North,  usually see them returning later beat up & broken, or pass them parked up in some sketchy anchorage, beat & broken. When the weather's good you need to be able to move quickly/dependably.

   Reading the article above about a Nordhaven: they did not plan/adapt their trip well, and suffered for it. 

Thanks Longy - that's really valuable.  From the Sea Magazine article it doesn't look great in a trawler either as @ChrisJD points out - they're talking about getting pounded to pieces and reducing speed to 4.5kts because of a 25kt headwind and 6-8ft seas; that's pretty common & I would have thought a big trawler could handle conditions like that without much trouble.  It doesn't specify the size of the Nordhavn but I don't think they get smaller than 40', right?  

I was kind of hoping a 50-54' trawler would give you the freedom to just blast north with aplomb at 8kts and make the trip in 4-5 days straight so long as you dodged the late summer hurricanes.  If I need to allow 20 days for the passage and get out of MX by mid to late July, there's no way I can realistically do a trip over summer break (late June through late August).  If I can get home in under a week I can leave much later through a more narrow window - but it sounds like from Longy' post I'm being unrealistic and would need the ability to wait for a window in any realistic vessel.  

It kind of just looks like more misery than I'd want to put up with either way...

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From their blog, Duet appears to be a Nordhavn 50.

Separately, I don't know how to square "Wife hates heeling" with a monohull sailing to weather.

I agree with Chute.  The money you'd spend on a delivery crew has got to be worth the savings to your marriage.

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There are trawlers that actually trawl for fish. There are trawlers that used to trawl for fish or are copies of ones that did. They of course bash into large seas for days on end to make their livings. The crew may not like it, but then again they are being paid to be there ;)

Then there are "trawlers" that are kind of a lifestyle more than a boat design and pretty much include everything with a motor that has a certain "trawlerish" look. Their ability to deal with weather is HUGELY variable. To start with, count anything that planes out unless you have an unlimited budget for fuel.  Another thing is powerboats scale totally differently than sailboats. 30 foot sailboats do what 100 foot sailboats do, just a bit slower. Every 10 foot increase in a powerboat is a whole new level in a way that doesn't happen with sailboats.

Final thought  - nothing is as dangerous as a schedule on an airplane or a boat :o

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Here you go:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2001/caliber-40-lrc-3560533/?refSource=enhanced

Tankage

FUEL ….. 212 gals total / 2 tanks

                             *Estimated Range of 1,484 nautical miles !

WATER ….. 179 gals total / 2 tanks

If you can find one on the West Coast:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1996/caliber-47-lrc-2867653/?refSource=enhanced

Tanks
Fresh Water Tanks: 2 Fiberglass (250 Gallons)
Fuel Tanks: 3 Fiberglass (250 Gallons)

 

IMHO vastly more seaworthy than most trawlers, can sail if needed, and can motor a LONG way. Built a pilot house on it if your wife insists and sell the rig ;)

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A lot of it comes down to time. If you have the time, it doesn't have to be a bash. Just wait for the good weather and go. But we are talking a few months to the PNW. It also depends on time of year. Baja is actually best done in November - but you don't want to be heading north along the US west coast past point Conception in November.

July is another option, but then you have to worry about early season hurricanes. If you have a faster vessel (yes, steady 8 knots) you can wait for a hurricane south of you to reduce the prevailing NW winds and get in front of it and go. Fuel is pretty easily taken on in Mag Bay in the Port of San Carlos and at Turtle Bay.

Cats are the worst powering into a seaway. They pitch more than monos. I'd far rather just wait.

It comes down to this - is this a one time delivery or a regular thing? If a one time thing, any boat will do it. It just won't be fun. I read an account of somebody in Atlantic 42 who did LA to PNW one summer. He was mostly soloing. Just took his time, and spent very little time bashing into head seas.

Decent article here but he's wrong about Turtle Bay being the only fuel stop:

https://www.passagemaker.com/destinations/the-baja-bash

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Geez... if it's a Nordhavn 50 there's not much hope... I understand "trawler" is a marketing term, but I was thinking about the more seaworthy full displacement single-engine versions like Nordhavn which, as I understand it, is kind of the gold standard for seaworthiness in a trawler.  But yeah, the boat can be 100% seaworthy but if the crew is all puking over the side I've still lost the battle.  

Thanks for the article @Zonker - that's one of the ones I read before posting this.  The idea of the thread was to determine if the bash could be something that could be done somewhat regularly/comfortably if you had the right vessel - and what said vessel would be.  My family isn't ready for more than a couple of months at this point.  Frankly it sounds like either bareboat charter or a big 8kt trawler and some good weather routing are the realistic options, and I'm leaning toward the former pretty hard.  

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If it’s a ‘lifestyle’, well, get something long (a la the FPB 64)..  I’ve delivered a few powerboats north to the PNW from south of San Fran, 43’ and a 49’ Defever.  I distinctly remember 2 days averaging 2.3 knots in the Defever...  Better to stage/position the boat where you want it for a while.  Do NOT ask/permit the wifey to make that trip.  Everyone will be much happier for it.

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4 minutes ago, Veeger said:

If it’s a ‘lifestyle’, well, get something long (a la the FPB 64)..  I’ve delivered a few powerboats north to the PNW from south of San Fran, 43’ and a 49’ Defever.  I distinctly remember 2 days averaging 2.3 knots in the Defever...  Better to stage/position the boat where you want it for a while.  Do NOT ask/permit the wifey to make that trip.  Everyone will be much happier for it.

Thanks - this seems like sage advice which I will take.  

Hey, that's a MC38 in your profile pic, right?  I think I saw your boat sailing out of Anacortes yesterday by the ferry terminal around 2pm.  Looked sharp - a contrast to the more salty looking vessels that seem to be common up there.  I was up in the San Juans for the week, and that Sunday seemed to have about the only sailable wind.  Another reason for musing about a trawler - what an amazing place to have a boat.  

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Yup, that was me.  It was a great day of sailing both yesterday and today.  I actually sailed from sea buoy to sea buoy yesterday (Fisherman Bay, Lopez). Admiral has an afternoon massage so home by 3 tomorrow.  Oh, the humanity....

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Mexico in the summer? Not my first choice.

Trawler for bashing comfort? Unlikely.

On a schedule you want a long narrow monohull for bashing. Low windage. No pitching tendency. Without any schedule anything with a strong engine as there are plenty of places to hide and several windows a month. However sitting at Punta Abreojos for a week or two needs to be considered. Ask me how I know.

Do not take any timid crew. SD sailing experience really does not apply.

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7 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Yup, that was me.  It was a great day of sailing both yesterday and today.  I actually sailed from sea buoy to sea buoy yesterday (Fisherman Bay, Lopez). Admiral has an afternoon massage so home by 3 tomorrow.  Oh, the humanity....

You are both blessed.  I envy you all of that flat water and beautiful close destinations, at least in the summertime... 

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5 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Mexico in the summer? Not my first choice.

Trawler for bashing comfort? Unlikely.

On a schedule you want a long narrow monohull for bashing. Low windage. No pitching tendency. Without any schedule anything with a strong engine as there are plenty of places to hide and several windows a month. However sitting at Punta Abreojos for a week or two needs to be considered. Ask me how I know.

Do not take any timid crew. SD sailing experience really does not apply.

Yeah, all my crew are timid... I think I'd need the QE2 to make this silly plan work.  I think I'm gonna focus my next efforts on a month or so though the channel islands, maybe have them take the train up to Santa Barbara and meet me there, then graduate to 737's and bareboat or try and pull the kids out of school for a while for something longer.  

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As a first step, why not park your boat in Oxnard next summer?  Easy access to the Channel Islands.  A sucky drive from SD but still a lot faster than doing it by motoring uphill all that way.   If a summer at the islands works out then proceed with a plan for Mexico.  

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1 hour ago, CruiserJim said:

As a first step, why not park your boat in Oxnard next summer?  Easy access to the Channel Islands.  A sucky drive from SD but still a lot faster than doing it by motoring uphill all that way.   If a summer at the islands works out then proceed with a plan for Mexico.  

This could be a good plan.  But.  Even the Santa Barbara Channel can get a touch ‘bouncy’.  Forewarned is fore armed.  I greatly enjoyed having my little Yamaha 25 based in Ventura Harbor for a few years.  It was out at Santa Cruz Island where I learned that very stiff (stable) boats rolled far too quickly...      I.e. the little Yamaha based on a 1/4 tonner type design and stiff rolled quickly while the nice old Cal 34 lifted and waltzed in comparison.

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What's the prospect of running the old Clipper route, from Cabo partway towards Hawaii then bending NE to the Bay or Puget Sound? It's a lot of offshore, and the fambily (possibly the owner?) wouldn't have the patience for it ... but I can think of a lot of young sailors craving passage experience who could swing a month or two for the lark  of that trip.  

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8 hours ago, socalrider said:

Yeah, that's an option as well... What would a delivery skipper charge for making the bash?  

Something like $3 per mile + expenses or around that

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I tried the big motor monster on sf bay. Failed investment. Into waves was “ok” at best, just go slow and deal with green water over the bow. Somehow you’d get used to it, maybe it was the reassuring rumble of those big Cummins diesels just ticking over. It was cool to make the Stockton to SF run in a single daylight cycle. 

downwind was fucking hairy. Like “we’re gonna broach and be laid on our beam ends” hairy. No thanks. It was a lighter boat, but plenty big at 43’. Waves from aft would just throw you around.

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2 hours ago, Veeger said:

 It was out at Santa Cruz Island where I learned that very stiff (stable) boats rolled far too quickly...      I.e. the little Yamaha based on a 1/4 tonner type design and stiff rolled quickly while the nice old Cal 34 lifted and waltzed in comparison.

Oh yes indeedy. Stiff boats might not heel as much or roll through as big an arc, but they are quite violent in the action, whereas tender boats will roll over further, but do so much more gentlemanly.

I can watch my masthead (stiff boat) roll outboard, pause for a millisecond then snap back hard. The masthead might be travelling slower as it passes the vertical compared to a tender canoe shaped hull, but the motion is much more extreme.

I like it that way but if comfort is important? Definitely don’t get a stiff boat .

SB

 

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2 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Oh yes indeedy. Stiff boats might not heel as much or roll through as big an arc, but they are quite violent in the action, whereas tender boats will roll over further, but do so much more gentlemanly.

I can watch my masthead (stiff boat) roll outboard, pause for a millisecond then snap back hard. The masthead might be travelling slower as it passes the vertical compared to a tender canoe shaped hull, but the motion is much more extreme.

I like it that way but if comfort is important? Definitely don’t get a stiff boat .

SB

This is an interesting and counterintuitive observation.  I have a somewhat stiff boat with a pretty deep (7.5') keel.  Catalina anchorages are pretty rolly - but watching my own mast versus other boats I seemed to be jerking around a hell of a lot more.  One Catalina 42, which is pretty similar to me in terms of hull & keel shape, size, and draft, had its boom out on a preventer with a flopper stopper rigged.  I'd never seen a sailboat do this before.  

@Veeger is that why you moved to a cat?  

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6 hours ago, socalrider said:

@Veeger is that why you moved to a cat?  

Ironically, no.  Cats are even more stiff and 'jerky' in a seaway.  However, as you've noted, I sail in a large lake/inland sea and, except for mo-bo wakes, the stability of a cat works in my favor here.  Boat's such as Shaggy's (and I'm envious in many ways) and mine are great for performance and stability especially underway.  They are not so great when bouncing around a sloppy anchorage such as Lady's Harbor, (my place of education).  Although cats can act and move more like a raft while at anchor, than a rapidly rolling metronome.

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1. Your family sounds like they would be miserable and scared offshore in bad weather.

2. Too much of #1 and you'll never get them on a boat again.

3. Going south to Mexico can be done without much bad weather, but summer is VERY hot. I have a friend down there year round and I wouldn't want the heat and chance of hurricanes he deals with.

4. Going north is as serious a coastal passage as there is.

I would think about the following idea: Go to Seattle and buy a nice trawler. Spend the summer up there. You have pretty much unlimited destinations that don't involve long ocean passages and a lot of places to see.

After that, have the boat shipped home, delivered home by pros, or delivered by pros + you. You also could just have the boat stored there until next year. YMMV and IMHO

 

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Getting back north from Mexico isn't that big a deal if you wait for a window compared to getting roasted to death while you are down there.

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4 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

Could have the boat freightered back north. Also these folks.

Yup. I bought my big (to me) 30' cat with trailer (not trawler!) transport in mind. It breaks down to trailer, so transport from Lake Ontario west was simple.

Having motor-bashed up the Baja and California coast, I believe that the few days that it takes to break down the cat for travel will be more than made up for by the 60mph travel speed and decreased wear and tear on the boat.

Not every boat can be easily trailered but most CAN be transported in some way... and sometimes, more effectively than they can be sailed/motored.

Randii

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6 hours ago, Veeger said:

Ironically, no.  Cats are even more stiff and 'jerky' in a seaway.  However, as you've noted, I sail in a large lake/inland sea and, except for mo-bo wakes, the stability of a cat works in my favor here.  Boat's such as Shaggy's (and I'm envious in many ways) and mine are great for performance and stability especially underway.  They are not so great when bouncing around a sloppy anchorage such as Lady's Harbor, (my place of education).  Although cats can act and move more like a raft while at anchor, than a rapidly rolling metronome.

I dunno about "cats". Cats are as varied as monos. I'm wary of sweeping statements about their behavior.  I have an entirely non-randomly selected set of experiences in monos, cats and tris at sea and at anchor that inform my opinion. It's different than yours. For instance, comparing my 42' cat with a 45' heavy displacement traditional cutter on the passage from the Lines to Hawaii that I did in both in very similar weather, I found the motion of the cat much smoother. The cat was also very much faster and more weatherly. At anchor often a ground swell that is imperceptible in my cat gets monos rolling. By and large, I've found my cat has a pleasant motion at sea and at anchor compared to monos I have known. It has relatively narrow hulls with good bridge deck clearance, a smooth flare to the topsides and moderate displacement. That probably isn't the fastest form nor is is the most commodious but it does seem to travel well. There is a population of cats designed with different compromises. They have different characteristics.

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I agree that in our cat, we were always well rested after a passage (generally). The exceptions were hard on the wind (20-30 knots) for 3 days or so. That isn't fun in any sort of boat. But we seemed to be having a better time than friends in a Beneteau 50 and a Hylas 47. Sort of.

A good description written by my wife about one of our sucky upwind passages (one of two bad ones in RTW):

http://maiaaboard.blogspot.com/2015/08/enduring-indian-ocean.html

Worst motion was motoring into a head sea (channel between Bali and Lombok which has big currents and short seas). Same story exiting Gulf of Panama. Moderately strong headwinds, but big currents. Lots of up and down and very little progress forward.

Sometimes short spaced beam seas of about 2.5m were sucky too.

At anchor no contest. Cats win

 

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52 minutes ago, weightless said:

I dunno about "cats". Cats are as varied as monos. I'm wary of sweeping statements about their behavior.  I have an entirely non-randomly selected set of experiences in monos, cats and tris at sea and at anchor that inform my opinion. It's different than yours. For instance, comparing my 42' cat with a 45' heavy displacement traditional cutter on the passage from the Lines to Hawaii that I did in both in very similar weather, I found the motion of the cat much smoother. The cat was also very much faster and more weatherly. At anchor often a ground swell that is imperceptible in my cat gets monos rolling. By and large, I've found my cat has a pleasant motion at sea and at anchor compared to monos I have known. It has relatively narrow hulls with good bridge deck clearance, a smooth flare to the topsides and moderate displacement. That probably isn't the fastest form nor is is the most commodious but it does seem to travel well. There is a population of cats designed with different compromises. They have different characteristics.

Yes, beware generalizations.  Off the wind and at anchor, cats are quite comfy in comparison to monohulls.  That truth was (poorly) acknowledged in my 'raft' comment,  Upwind? As Zonker describes? Well, we are in agreement.  My error was to assign a single rating number to a sport boat, as it were.  Point of sail matters in a cat.  Likewise, relative displacement matters with regard to motion in a cat.  I expect my 38' 12000# cat vs a 40' Lagoon of recent vintage will be, 'more lively'.   Btw, the raft comment was not intended to describe speed potential either.

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24 minutes ago, Veeger said:

 Point of sail matters in a cat.

Sure, but also in a mono. "Gentlemen" have been avoiding sailing to weather for longer than cruising cats have been a thing. Still, it was to address just that point that I mentioned a reasonably long upwind passage where I have experience with a classic voyaging monohull and my catamaran. That cat was much, much more comfortable than that mono on the wind at sea. FWIW and YMMV and all.

Motoring into a seaway is going to suck in most small craft. Watching commercial fishing boats heading out bucking even a moderate sea makes me wonder how miserable a job has to be before no one will do it. There have been many times that I've been uncomfortable at sea on my cat. I don't think there have been many times that I would have found the motion less bad on a "reasonably comparable" mono.

 

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This thread also makes me thankful for the protected areas I have to cruise in. Over on this side of the continent I can get from New York to Miami in my dinghy if I want to.

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in belize just 2 weeks ago, we buddy boated with a big moorings cat. Damn that thing was palatial, and in motorsailing conditions, just the ticket. However.  

 

In the briefing they mentioned in passing, the occasional 30-50 knot southerly, but it only last 5 minutes....

 

On about the 4th day, there was a tropical wave moving over the area, so we ducked into a mangrove atoll, 360 degree protection. Easterly wind, forecast to go northerly. We were well spaced from the cat, and I slept on deck. At 1am we were hit with one of those nasty little gust fronts from the south. the 2nd anchors were now useless as we expected a northerly. We dragged about 500 feet, putting us where the cat was. But in all this I watched that cat sedately just slide sideways 500 feet into the mangroves. I didn't yaw, nothing. just slid sideways. On the mono we were bouncing around to beat the band, but in 15 minutes it backed off to 15 knots and rain, so we stabilized and went to sleep.

 

I would hate to be in an exposed anchorage with all that windage.  We talked about what would have happened given our original planned anchorage, and I think we both would have ended up on a reef. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, weightless said:

Sure, but also in a mono. "Gentlemen" have been avoiding sailing to weather for longer than cruising cats have been a thing. Still, it was to address just that point that I mentioned a reasonably long upwind passage where I have experience with a classic voyaging monohull and my catamaran. That cat was much, much more comfortable than that mono on the wind at sea. FWIW and YMMV and all.

Motoring into a seaway is going to suck in most small craft. Watching commercial fishing boats heading out bucking even a moderate sea makes me wonder how miserable a job has to be before no one will do it. There have been many times that I've been uncomfortable at sea on my cat. I don't think there have been many times that I would have found the motion less bad on a "reasonably comparable" mono.

What cat do you own?  Is it closer to a Lagoon or Veeger's MC38?  

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10 minutes ago, socalrider said:

What cat do you own?  Is it closer to a Lagoon or Veeger's MC38?  

An Atlantic 42. Tiny and light compared to a Lagoon of similar length but maybe a bit more laden than Veeger's Maine Cat? It is in long term cruising trim.

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1 hour ago, weightless said:

An Atlantic 42. Tiny and light compared to a Lagoon of similar length but maybe a bit more laden than Veeger's Maine Cat? It is in long term cruising trim.

That 'splains' everything!  An Atlantic 42, as well as most Christ White designs, is a whole 'nuther breed of cat!  They are the best value, best sailing, and fast of anything I've come across.  There are bigger, faster, shinier, but I'd take an A 42 for real voyaging.

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36 minutes ago, Veeger said:

That 'splains' everything!  An Atlantic 42, as well as most Christ White designs, is a whole 'nuther breed of cat!  They are the best value, best sailing, and fast of anything I've come across.  There are bigger, faster, shinier, but I'd take an A 42 for real voyaging.

:) Thank you. I love the boat and it has taken very good care of us over the years. Your Maine Cat looks like a wonderful boat, too.

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up thread about Baja Mex...it is hot there in the summer but like a lot of warm climates heaven at night. like stars?

from 10a to an hour before sunset you stay in your air conditioned boat, writing the great american novel, or what ever. rewiring the boat?

we commuter cruise out of there. and you could do the same out of Puget Sound if your family prefers that.

bottom line is boats can be scary & uncomfortable, but the beauty of being in cool places in the world and the feeling of accomplishment from handling your boat there more that makes up.

boats make great second home getaways abroad. i always wonder why boats bop down to Mex from SoCal only to return soon after. if you can afford to keep a boat in your home country,  you can afford to keep it anywhere, if you pick your airline tickets well. today’s internet cameras make you feel like its in the driveway...

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16 hours ago, weightless said:

I dunno about "cats". Cats are as varied as monos. I'm wary of sweeping statements about their behavior.  I have an entirely non-randomly selected set of experiences in monos, cats and tris at sea and at anchor that inform my opinion. It's different than yours. For instance, comparing my 42' cat with a 45' heavy displacement traditional cutter on the passage from the Lines to Hawaii that I did in both in very similar weather, I found the motion of the cat much smoother. The cat was also very much faster and more weatherly. At anchor often a ground swell that is imperceptible in my cat gets monos rolling. By and large, I've found my cat has a pleasant motion at sea and at anchor compared to monos I have known. It has relatively narrow hulls with good bridge deck clearance, a smooth flare to the topsides and moderate displacement. That probably isn't the fastest form nor is is the most commodious but it does seem to travel well. There is a population of cats designed with different compromises. They have different characteristics.

I, having a 2d-gen Catana, would second these thoughts and add that there do exist in the world catamarans which are quite weatherly ;)

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On 8/20/2019 at 8:45 PM, Veeger said:

That 'splains' everything!  An Atlantic 42, as well as most Christ White designs, is a whole 'nuther breed of cat!  They are the best value, best sailing, and fast of anything I've come across.  There are bigger, faster, shinier, but I'd take an A 42 for real voyaging.

This has been a really great thread - thanks all.  As a sailor I love the idea of a fast, light, weatherly cat and the A42 sure seems to fit the bill.  Curious on how it might stack up against the MC41 for a family of 5 - based on this thread, use case would be a month or two on the channel islands, or more extended cruising south into Baja and the West coast of MX.  PNW would be great too but I'd fly the fam out and either pay for delivery or get some help.  

If I'm paying someone else for upwind deliveries I don't see the point of a trawler over something I can sail. 

Side note: damn, cats are pricey.  $300k seems to be about the minimum cost of entry for 38'+ without getting something funky and homebuilt or really beaten up.  

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42 minutes ago, socalrider said:

This has been a really great thread - thanks all.  As a sailor I love the idea of a fast, light, weatherly cat and the A42 sure seems to fit the bill.  Curious on how it might stack up against the MC41 for a family of 5 - based on this thread, use case would be a month or two on the channel islands, or more extended cruising south into Baja and the West coast of MX.  PNW would be great too but I'd fly the fam out and either pay for delivery or get some help.  

If I'm paying someone else for upwind deliveries I don't see the point of a trawler over something I can sail. 

Side note: damn, cats are pricey.  $300k seems to be about the minimum cost of entry for 38'+ without getting something funky and homebuilt or really beaten up.  

A42 vs MC 41,....hmmm. depends on priorities.  family of 5....neither really works beyond a 1-3 week vacation, not as a home or when crossing oceans  (that does not mean they're not good for oceans, simply that for a family of 5, privacy and sleeping arrangements long term would be challenging).  Couple and occ'l guest couples?  A42 for sailing enthusiasts.  Layout nuances really effect the decision based on one's priorities. I'm not enthusiastic about the forward cockpit on the A42,  the Admiral didn't really like the limited living space on the bridge deck. The MC 41 was not as aesthetically pleasing inside as an A42 but it was sure simple to care for.   Bring $350k+  (even if you buy for less, there's ALWAYS something else you'll think you need to do and  'turnkey' is not often a boat term)

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18 minutes ago, Veeger said:

A42 vs MC 41,....hmmm. depends on priorities.  family of 5....neither really works beyond a 1-3 week vacation, not as a home or when crossing oceans  (that does not mean they're not good for oceans, simply that for a family of 5, privacy and sleeping arrangements long term would be challenging).  Couple and occ'l guest couples?  A42 for sailing enthusiasts.  Layout nuances really effect the decision based on one's priorities. I'm not enthusiastic about the forward cockpit on the A42,  the Admiral didn't really like the limited living space on the bridge deck. The MC 41 was not as aesthetically pleasing inside as an A42 but it was sure simple to care for.   Bring $350k+  (even if you buy for less, there's ALWAYS something else you'll think you need to do and  'turnkey' is not often a boat term)

There's only one letter between turnkey and turkey.

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2 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

There's only one letter between turnkey and turkey.

But a lot of dollars between 'em.....

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20 minutes ago, Veeger said:

But a lot of dollars between 'em.....

Hah - no kidding.  Coming from a 40' mono which is cozy but comfortable for us for 1-2 weeks, I can't imagine a 40' cat feeling cramped, but our kids are only getting bigger... 50' cats seem like a whole other ball game in terms of comfort, stability... and price... always the way it is it seems.  

One question on the MC41 - I'm surprised to see owners reporting max motoring speeds in the 6.5 (one engine) to 7.2 (both) knot range in flat water.  That's what our 40' 10T mono does; I'd think that a performance cat would be faster under motor.  

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7 hours ago, socalrider said:

Hah - no kidding.  Coming from a 40' mono which is cozy but comfortable for us for 1-2 weeks, I can't imagine a 40' cat feeling cramped, but our kids are only getting bigger... 50' cats seem like a whole other ball game in terms of comfort, stability... and price... always the way it is it seems.  

One question on the MC41 - I'm surprised to see owners reporting max motoring speeds in the 6.5 (one engine) to 7.2 (both) knot range in flat water.  That's what our 40' 10T mono does; I'd think that a performance cat would be faster under motor.  

The MC 41 is not what I'd call a 'performance cat'.  It's a cruising cat that performs reasonably well (when, if kept light which isn't the state when cruising).  As for motoring speeds,....  I defer to the experts for the Why but can only confirm what 'is'.

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Tom Schock always said "Own small, rent big"

Bareboat charter in dozens of beautiful fun locations around the world that your family will love. 

Buy a 24'ish monohull and day sail/boat camp locally, kids will take to sailing,  put them on the helm, their friends can come along, it's got to be fun.

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Just now, Latadjust said:

Tom Schock always said "Own small, rent big"

Bareboat charter in dozens of beautiful fun locations around the world that your family will love. 

Buy a 24'ish monohull and day sail/boat camp locally, kids will take to sailing,  put them on the helm, their friends can come along, it's got to be fun.

Smart. 

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3 hours ago, Latadjust said:

Tom Schock always said "Own small, rent big"

Bareboat charter in dozens of beautiful fun locations around the world that your family will love. 

Buy a 24'ish monohull and day sail/boat camp locally, kids will take to sailing,  put them on the helm, their friends can come along, it's got to be fun.

A family in a Cal 25 -- with 3 kids and 2 big dogs --  followed us around Desolation Sound for a week.  They anchored 3-4 hours later, but sailed the same routes, enjoyed the same spots, and did the same things.  I'm sure they had at least as much fun.

A Farrier tri may be the ultimate light cruiser, and away-daysailor.

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On 8/20/2019 at 12:16 AM, socalrider said:

Yeah, all my crew are timid... I think I'd need the QE2 to make this silly plan work.  I think I'm gonna focus my next efforts on a month or so though the channel islands, maybe have them take the train up to Santa Barbara and meet me there, then graduate to 737's and bareboat or try and pull the kids out of school for a while for something longer.  

Good call. 

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I’m pretty interested in this trip/thread,. Driving from Virginia to Cabo San Lucas as a 20 year old wanna be surfer and ok sailor in college was defining. Twenty years later I’m a fair sailor/surfer who would like to return via sail. My thoughts after lots of cruising guide review, talking to old salts and thread lurking is to either get a Corsair F27 I can trailer back to SoCal or to get a cheap monohull and leave it south. I feel great about all the surfboards in the last 25% of their life  I’ve given to young Central Americans instead of paying the airline fees to bring the board home. Someone tried to give me a Morgan 35 the other day with a working diesel. I think getting something like that and then giving it away in El Salvador might be the call.  

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1 hour ago, Geese said:

I’m pretty interested in this trip/thread,. Driving from Virginia to Cabo San Lucas as a 20 year old wanna be surfer and ok sailor in college was defining. Twenty years later I’m a fair sailor/surfer who would like to return via sail. My thoughts after lots of cruising guide review, talking to old salts and thread lurking is to either get a Corsair F27 I can trailer back to SoCal or to get a cheap monohull and leave it south. I feel great about all the surfboards in the last 25% of their life  I’ve given to young Central Americans instead of paying the airline fees to bring the board home. Someone tried to give me a Morgan 35 the other day with a working diesel. I think getting something like that and then giving it away in El Salvador might be the call.  

You can trailer an F27. With a Prius. Almost.

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I pulled a 2200 lb trailer across North America with a Mazda 626 - with a 120 HP 4 cylinder. No brakes on the trailer either.  Most of the way at ~70 mph.

I think a F27 on a trailer is about 4500 lbs. 

So you'd something a bit bigger than a Prius. But look at the European/Australian tow ratings for cars. For example my 2005 Mazda 6 has a 1500 kg trailer rating in Australia. In Canada and US it is not rated to tow anything. In the UK a Mazda 6 with a 1.8L engine is rated at 1300 kg.

You just have to go a bit slower and a mid size SUV will be fine. Or an old US Station wagon. A F27 trailering to the Baja for the summer sounds like a great time.

This dude drove from BC to Mexico with his catamaran - didn't even need a trailer.

onroof.jpg

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