LionessRacing

Lottery win: Updating a classic in modern materials & Methods

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I've thought about "when I win the lottery" having an updated version of Lioness built, keeping the topsides more or less intact.  

  • Hinckley's Carbon/Kevlar/Eglass "SCRIMP" process
  • modern underbody with balanced spade rudder and an improved lifting keel similar to the DS 42 
  • updated rig with carbon spars
  • Twin rotatable electric drives with  generation capabilities
    • Station keeping/joystick control 
  • Small diesel genset for power on extended cruises
  • Modern systems:
    • Digital switched power 
    • Watermaker
    • Solar cabin top/lazarette

 

What would you rebuild? 

What else would you update? 

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What are some old cool concept boats that didn't work because of material limitations?

 

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53 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

I've thought about "when I win the lottery" having an updated version of Lioness built, keeping the topsides more or less intact.  

  • Hinckley's Carbon/Kevlar/Eglass "SCRIMP" process
  • modern underbody with balanced spade rudder and an improved lifting keel similar to the DS 42 
  • updated rig with carbon spars
  • Twin rotatable electric drives with  generation capabilities
    • Station keeping/joystick control 
  • Small diesel genset for power on extended cruises
  • Modern systems:
    • Digital switched power 
    • Watermaker
    • Solar cabin top/lazarette

 

What would you rebuild? 

What else would you update? 

Yep, would be nice.

Sounds like the Water Witch 48 or Hinckley 52DS

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Tungsten bulb lifting keel :)

But I wouldn't really start with a Hinckley

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Reliance, but only if it was a BIG lottery.  Otherwise a modern 5.5 meter.  Why, because I think they are super boats to look at and sail but so very, very impractical for where and why and when we sail.  

83ADC015-7770-4655-9A3E-DDEB89717257.jpeg

807063E3-0A25-4D8F-86DA-6DDA1BC258F5.jpeg

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Windward passage, Steinlager II hell even the card would be cool.  Romping around in an all carbon Ketch, now that would be something.  Reliance et all would look like shit if you replaced all the wood with carbon and made the cotton sails string sails.  No Bueno...  

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MacGregor 26?

Not really. How about the Herreshoff S-Boat?

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Always thought about Passage, with the ketch rig and original sprit, modern foils.

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Gesture but only the topsides remain the same - modern underbody, carbo rig etc. etc.

Antique woodwork interior of course.

image.png.7d4b8c6538d0d8d1017de364e044ede7.png

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2 hours ago, toad said:

WTF are you on about THIS is the dreamboat

 

image.jpg

Holy Shit!   did the front fall off?

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I would find and buy "Hawk" Evan Starzinger's aluminum Van de Stadt. Failing that,  an Amel.

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3 hours ago, toad said:

WTF are you on about THIS is the dreamboat

 

image.jpg

If you won the lottery, you could hire a better designer.

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I would buy a group of boats (daysailer, single hander, cruiser, etc) and hire a manager to take care of them.

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I'd commission a bunch of Pogo 3s and setup offshore programs and events in Japan, Anzac, Pacific Northwest US/Canada. 

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I click through the pages of the "concept" pages on designers' websites when I have a lotto ticket in my wallet.  There are some amazing proposals out there that never get built.  

 

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Here is a 'lotto ticket' design that Bob Perry and I did a few years ago for a Hinckley owner who really didn't need to win the lotto to build his dream boat.  I think he thought that he could pimp this design to Hinckley but then they went and did that soulless 50'er.

 

image.thumb.png.0fb639113836a128543eb6682f5bd4ca.png

 

image.thumb.png.8e42b7d5a78d6a45e79341b4c45b7a28.png

It is still sitting right here on my hard drive awaiting a interested party, just get in touch with me or Bob. It could tick all the boxes for the OP.

image.thumb.png.515de4894b98e6ad265c2692bf202141.png

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How about a profile just for the hell of it?

image.thumb.png.262ae1506ec8715dfc11e3262d145c57.png

 

The client had a very tricked out SW 42 but wanted Hinckley to take it to the next level and talked Bob and I into doing this 'dream boat' or 'lotto ticket' version with all the latest tech innovations that had become available. Still a viable idea and Bob and I would love to take it to the next level. Imagine this design built to the standards of Bob's Carbon Cutters, it would be the toast of the town on the New England yachting circuit!

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11 hours ago, Ishmael said:

If you won the lottery, you could hire a designer.

There

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As always.... it depends.  What are you going to do with the boat? Race only? Local cruising? Long distance? Thats already three very different dream boats.

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8 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

How about a profile just for the hell of it?

image.thumb.png.262ae1506ec8715dfc11e3262d145c57.png

 

The client had a very tricked out SW 42 but wanted Hinckley to take it to the next level and talked Bob and I into doing this 'dream boat' or 'lotto ticket' version with all the latest tech innovations that had become available. Still a viable idea and Bob and I would love to take it to the next level. Imagine this design built to the standards of Bob's Carbon Cutters, it would be the toast of the town on the New England yachting circuit!

Yeah very nice, but I would want a stern torpedo tube as well..... goddam tin cans get on your ass, a deflection shot while being chased is the only hope.

Plus you can use it to lay mines

FB- Doug

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9 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

How about a profile just for the hell of it?

image.thumb.png.262ae1506ec8715dfc11e3262d145c57.png

 

The client had a very tricked out SW 42 but wanted Hinckley to take it to the next level and talked Bob and I into doing this 'dream boat' or 'lotto ticket' version with all the latest tech innovations that had become available. Still a viable idea and Bob and I would love to take it to the next level. Imagine this design built to the standards of Bob's Carbon Cutters, it would be the toast of the town on the New England yachting circuit!

Yup, just a bit more "Tripp Jr" sheer rise to the bow and that's pretty much what I am thinking... Do you have a rendered version waterline up? 

 

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15 hours ago, hhn92 said:

Always thought about Passage, with the ketch rig and original sprit, modern foils.

 

Right after Passage had the refit with the first ever, I think, 4 spreader rig from Timmy Twin Tubes, I did the delivery back from Nassau at the '82 SORC, IIRC.  When the backstay was wanked down good, the hull would flex and seams down near the garboard plank would leak.  But, it was an awesome boat, in it's day!!!!  Between Passage and Evergreen, Stearns had 2 full time mechanics and a van full of spare cylinders and hydro fluid to repair all the failed units.

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10 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Yup, just a bit more "Tripp Jr" sheer rise to the bow and that's pretty much what I am thinking... Do you have a rendered version waterline up? 

 

Tripp's "Katrinka" would be awesome in CF, with modern gear!  Although the refit about 10 years ago or so, at Brooklin Boatyard was pretty damn nice!!

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I would not be interested in changing the sheer to QUAIL. It's fine as is.

Peter Kunst, model maker, is almost finished with a full model of QUAIL. He built the model because he likes the design.

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20 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

I've thought about "when I win the lottery" having an updated version of Lioness built, keeping the topsides more or less intact.  

If I won the lottery I'd have @willp14335 design me something completely new to cruise on.

Something akin to the very cool 47 foot couple oriented cruiser he did for his senior thesis.

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1 minute ago, B.J. Porter said:

If I won the lottery I'd have @willp14335 design me something completely new to cruise on.

Something akin to the very cool 47 foot couple oriented cruiser he did for his senior thesis.

I wonder what he'd charge you for that? ;)

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19 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

I would not be interested in changing the sheer to QUAIL. It's fine as is.

If you had to take a non-binding wild assed stab in the dark guess on what a custom build for that would cost, what would it be?

I need to carefully manage my next big lottery prize winnings. Actually, I am just curious...

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With a skies the limit budget I'd be happy on this boat when I finally cruise Alaska. Even spend a couple of winters with that kind of space and comfort.

image.thumb.png.9a910b01e5ed658163bcda63cb660e5b.png

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

I would not be interested in changing the sheer to QUAIL. It's fine as is.

Peter Kunst, model maker, is almost finished with a full model of QUAIL. He built the model because he likes the design.

Bob, 

it's a lovely design as is.

Do you have dimensions (LOA, LWL, beam, draft, displacement, SA/D etc) you could share? 

I'm merely partial to what I have, with aforementioned updates to reflect modern hydrodynamics, materials and processes.

Much as the Alerion XX+1 are the pretty versions of the Express XX and have the modern Schumacher underbodies. 

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20 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Bob, 

it's a lovely design as is.

Do you have dimensions (LOA, LWL, beam, draft, displacement, SA/D etc) you could share? 

I'm merely partial to what I have, with aforementioned updates to reflect modern hydrodynamics, materials and processes.

Much as the Alerion XX+1 are the pretty versions of the Express XX and have the modern Schumacher underbodies. 

image.png.1dd4beba1652c1fd9a4f1e7f5ee933e9.png

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DrewR:

If we built that boat in carbon at the Betts yard I'd say around 1.4 million USD. If 1.5 scares you I don't think this is the boat for you. Maybe less if not carbon and another yard. Could be more if you built in Maine.

 

Lioness:

LOA   46.2'

DWL   39.72'

Beam   12.6'

Draft    6'

Displ    26,500 lbs. depending on the keel we used.

SA/D 17.56    but that was with a bridge clearance issue. Could be more.

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5 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

DrewR:

If we built that boat in carbon at the Betts yard I'd say around 1.4 million USD. If 1.5 scares you I don't think this is the boat for you. Maybe less if not carbon and another yard. Could be more if you built in Maine.

 

Lioness:

LOA   46.2'

DWL   39.72'

Beam   12.6'

Draft    6'

Displ    26,500 lbs. depending on the keel we used.

SA/D 17.56    but that was with a bridge clearance issue. Could be more.

Presumably that 26,500+  was with full offshore/live aboard cruising systems and nice furniture... 

some sort of powered winches/windlass/thruster to fit size vs age tradeoff. 

If one win's that lottery, the $1.5-2E6 would not be an issue...

And with the folks in Maine do very lovely furniture

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

If 1.5 scares you I don't think this is the boat for you

Yes it does scare me, god knows what NEB would charge. I can dream tho, thanks! 

Beautiful boat tho, I’ve been on Quail and this would be a fantastic upgrade. 

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D rewR:

I try not to BS the client with a low price just to get the design job. It's done. I'd rather guess at a nice high price and have the builder come back with a lower bid. Custom boats are very seldom below the bid price. In fact I can't think of one.

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If I were considering a project like that on the east coast my first stop would be Brooklin to talk to Steve White. They're as good at carbon as anyone, as Outlier and Toroa demonstrate. The only Hinckley sailboat under construction now is actually being built at BBY, Hinckley just molded the hull. BBY has installed the systems and built the interior to an astounding standard. 

A very good friend who spent years working at Hinckley as an "Owner's Nanny" has told me that for a new custom build, BBY would be his first choice. They have a replica of Hemingway's fishing boat under construction now, and I'm told they may build a 3rd Taylor 49 like Dreadnought and Blackfish. 

Modern classics are what they do, making pretty boats that go fast with systems that work. If I ever build a custom, it will be there.

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If I had no financial restrictions I'd have a modern trailerable pocket cruiser designed.   I'd use modern materials and construction to limit dry weight around a metric ton while retaining cruising amenities  and allowing more weight low for stiffness.   I'd have the architect emphasize easy rigging so ramp time is reduced on road trips.   Design a cockpit sufficient for a handful, but optimize the interior for two unlike most everything out of the 1970s.   These are the best features of my current R 22.    Of course if I won the lotto I wouldn't need a tailor launchable anymore.   I could have a proper small cruiser waiting at a slip in any location, and a shore crew to grab some lines and tidy it up after.    I would just need to haul an RS Aero for something sporty I could helicopter launch at the ramp.   No more lines for me.  :D

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On 8/22/2019 at 11:01 AM, Bob Perry said:

I would not be interested in changing the sheer to QUAIL. It's fine as is.

Peter Kunst, model maker, is almost finished with a full model of QUAIL. He built the model because he likes the design.

That is a beautiful boat.   It speaks to my heart.   

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I'd have a wooden J-Class yacht built by Brooklin Boat Yard with modern construction technique a la Frank Gehry's Frogger.

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31 minutes ago, Lark said:

If I had no financial restrictions I'd have a modern trailerable pocket cruiser designed.   I'd use modern materials and construction to limit dry weight around a metric ton while retaining cruising amenities  and allowing more weight low for stiffness.   I'd have the architect emphasize easy rigging so ramp time is reduced on road trips.   Design a cockpit sufficient for a handful, but optimize the interior for two unlike most everything out of the 1970s.   These are the best features of my current R 22.    Of course if I won the lotto I wouldn't need a tailor launchable anymore.   I could have a proper small cruiser waiting at a slip in any location, and a shore crew to grab some lines and tidy it up after.    I would just need to haul an RS Aero for something sporty I could helicopter launch at the ramp.   No more lines for me.  :D

Some of us enjoy simpler things.  With a big loot win, of course you could sail anywhere.  But sailing at my favorite lake is the "anywhere" I want to be.  I love your fantaay of designing the perfect trailer sailor.

Some of my lotto winnings would be use to build this for my favorite lake...

 https://wilson-marquinez.com/mw27/

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11 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

Some of us enjoy simpler things.  With a big loot win, of course you could sail anywhere.  But sailing at my favorite lake is the "anywhere" I want to be.  I love your fantaay of designing the perfect trailer sailor.

Some of my lotto winnings would be use to build this for my favorite lake...

 https://wilson-marquinez.com/mw27/

Huh, that Wilson-marquinez look like it should be a J/Boat. a J/83

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On 8/21/2019 at 11:55 AM, LionessRacing said:

I've thought about "when I win the lottery" having an updated version of Lioness built, keeping the topsides more or less intact.  

  • Hinckley's Carbon/Kevlar/Eglass "SCRIMP" process
  • modern underbody with balanced spade rudder and an improved lifting keel similar to the DS 42 
  • updated rig with carbon spars
  • Twin rotatable electric drives with  generation capabilities
    • Station keeping/joystick control 
  • Small diesel genset for power on extended cruises
  • Modern systems:
    • Digital switched power 
    • Watermaker
    • Solar cabin top/lazarette

 

What would you rebuild? 

What else would you update? 

First, I would take care of my rather large family.
Then I would help to build businesses that would generate a legacy that they could work for generations.

Then I would by Greenland................................LOL

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40 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Just experimenting with ways to bring images into SA.

image.thumb.png.46bc6b429e7972ed90eb4a5cfbb32257.png

Lovely image: 

what is tradeoff of cost/weight/performance in attempting to make the keel ( & Rudder) liftable? 

i.e. can the 6' draft be reduced to 4-5' and the lowered keel (8-10' ? draft) be higher aspect, with bulb for better sailing? 

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On 8/21/2019 at 2:55 PM, LionessRacing said:

I've thought about "when I win the lottery" having an updated version of Lioness built, keeping the topsides more or less intact.  

  • Hinckley's Carbon/Kevlar/Eglass "SCRIMP" process
  • modern underbody with balanced spade rudder and an improved lifting keel similar to the DS 42 
  • updated rig with carbon spars
  • Twin rotatable electric drives with  generation capabilities
    • Station keeping/joystick control 
  • Small diesel genset for power on extended cruises
  • Modern systems:
    • Digital switched power 
    • Watermaker
    • Solar cabin top/lazarette

 

What would you rebuild? 

What else would you update? 

Well that's a new boat. Just saying.

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2 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Lovely image: 

what is tradeoff of cost/weight/performance in attempting to make the keel ( & Rudder) liftable? 

i.e. can the 6' draft be reduced to 4-5' and the lowered keel (8-10' ? draft) be higher aspect, with bulb for better sailing? 

Very painful.

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Thanks for the tips Jody.

Lioness:

Reduce the draft and you'd raise the VCG. That's not good. 6' draft is as little as I would go on this design. If I had my druthers I'd go 8'. Give the boat some balls.

 

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On 8/21/2019 at 4:17 PM, Santana20AE said:

Reliance, but only if it was a BIG lottery.  Otherwise a modern 5.5 meter.  Why, because I think they are super boats to look at and sail but so very, very impractical for where and why and when we sail.  

83ADC015-7770-4655-9A3E-DDEB89717257.jpeg

807063E3-0A25-4D8F-86DA-6DDA1BC258F5.jpeg

RELIANCE, and the Boston syndicate's even more extreme INDEPENDENCE, are two of the only large boats ever built that still look like almost ready to go cutting edge in many ways. OK so our modern rules have ditched the overhangs but they both have dinghy-like shallowness, extreme ballast depth, cutaway keels, insane rigs. Bronze hull plating, aluminum topside and deck plating on steel or iron frames made for a few months sailing. Built in modern materials those huge sailplans flying by Fort Adams on the way to Amboy and then up through the Narrows. Now there's a Billionaire's superyacht project I would most definitely enthusiastically sign up for engineering.

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3 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

First, I would take care of my rather large family.
Then I would help to build businesses that would generate a legacy that they could work for generations.

Doesn’t always work....Remember Coca-Cola?  Still a big name product but not for the family that started bottling it.  The Beidenharn family.  Started out in Vicksburg and then moved to Monroe, LA.  Once heard that they received a royalty for each and every bottle of Coke sold in the world.  Kinda takes care of what ever you want.  Went to school with some members of that family. Down to earth family.  Put the oldest son on the back of a Coca-Cola delivery truck.  Learn the business from the very bottom up.  

Well as days turn out, a group of the family took over the bottling plant in Monroe while others went on to other business (Delta Airlines!) The group with the bottling plant were two boys and three girls.  Now please don’t consider me a mysogenist (or any other “ist” ) but the young men of the family wanted to keep the business. Always have a resource .  The three young ladies wanted to sell out and get the money.  Three to two. They took the money and that’s that.  When the money runs out, its gone.  

Funny story about Papa Beidenharn and Delta Airlines but that is for another time, another day.

 Monroe, Louisiana, are you kidding, being mentioned in Sailing Anachy???? 

My Father sailing on the only sailable waters in Monroe.  

 

C4CDF529-8680-4E2C-BF13-442ABFAAD611.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

expimage.thumb.png.2fa6cc84d92fa7a757e30bbdc96056a6.pngerimenting:

I'd say your experiment worked. I can picture a couple of similar 45'ers and this design raised the bar. (and I know you were talking about screen shots)

 

Moody brought a classically styled yet modern 45' yacht to market and it didn't do to well in the US at least. I think it's a great boat, but I think if it had looked like the boat pictured above it would've done a lot better.

image.png.49226ccfd89d8d15e1a24bb4e9c4b2f4.png

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On 8/21/2019 at 12:01 PM, r.finn said:

What are some old cool concept boats that didn't work because of material limitations?

 

The Titanic?

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16 hours ago, lasal said:

but I think if it had looked like the boat pictured above it would've done a lot better.

That's the thing about Perry's designs, they aren't retro or classic...they are timeless!  They will look good in any era.

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I’d like to see a Columbia 50 yawl updated, sailed more than a few miles on one.

Graceful sheer a good turn of boatspeed Tripp Snr

Some interiors where Mickey Mouse and IMHO the build quality went downhill once Sailcrafter got involved.

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One of my all time favourites. Sailcrafter just sold the mouldings IIRC so those boats will have the usual "kit boat" variability in finish.

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On 8/25/2019 at 11:53 AM, SloopJonB said:

One of my all time favourites. Sailcrafter just sold the mouldings IIRC so those boats will have the usual "kit boat" variability in finish.

And the originals had cored decks with deck fittings screwed straight into them some were .....spongy :D

Bloody beautiful to sail though couldn’t tell you the number of times we just blew  someone who wanted to race against us away and she was hardly a race boat.

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I always wanted one of the Bristol Channel Pilot cutters. Always seemed the right mix of work-boat vs yacht with a manageable rig.  

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44 minutes ago, Elegua said:

I always wanted one of the Bristol Channel Pilot cutters. Always seemed the right mix of work-boat vs yacht with a manageable rig.  

There is a couple of Dutch companies that make very nice modern versions.

Serious boat porn at the Hoek brokerage website and no It’s not a plug, I have no relationship to them but I do find several of their boats fulfilling my if I won the lotto fantasy 

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10 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Elagua:

You can have a modern version of a BCC built in carbon.

450

ve a modern BCC built in carbon.

Yes, I guess if we've won the lottery, right?  How much rm would you lose with glass, alu or cold moulding? 

 

Could you do a CF gaff rig? Retracting bowsprit? 

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On 8/23/2019 at 3:11 PM, Bob Perry said:

expimage.thumb.png.2fa6cc84d92fa7a757e30bbdc96056a6.pngerimenting:

Looks good but really is lacking a hard dodger. Id have one fabbed out of unpainted aluminum and plexiglass, thru-bolted on the coach roof. Extend it well aft so we have plenty of room for solar panels. Gunna put an arch for dinghy davit on the back as well. May as well stick the mainsheet traveler on it for good measure.

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6 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Yes, I guess if we've won the lottery, right?  How much rm would you lose with glass, alu or cold moulding? 

I could see alu with a lifting keel since it looks like you live in a shallow state now, but glass or wood? It's a modern BCC! Come on. :)

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On 8/22/2019 at 8:46 AM, Rasputin22 said:

 

O39.thumb.png.fc53a06dd46cf41f883108e3d140d61e.pngO37.thumb.png.ab666aeb11d059a5db510e069bc144c5.png

That's a really nice full model, but the rendering is exceptional and probably gets the details better. Hopefully this will dissuade Mark Set from further blasphemy re dodgers.

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2 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Very hard to beat Jody's rendering skills.

 

It's not quite perfect. If you look really really close, you can see that some of the stitching on the dodger is a little puckered.

FB- Doug

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10 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

It's not quite perfect. If you look really really close, you can see that some of the stitching on the dodger is a little puckered.

FB- Doug

That's not a rendering issue, unfortunately, he is predicting the sewing machine snagging on some thread.

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On 8/24/2019 at 8:11 AM, Bob Perry said:

expimage.thumb.png.2fa6cc84d92fa7a757e30bbdc96056a6.pngerimenting:

Now if you put that coach roof on a flying tiger it would be a very modern classic 

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46 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

That's not a rendering issue, unfortunately, he is predicting the sewing machine snagging on some thread.

Been a while since I did those renders, just had a fresh look in my latest rendering software and can see where I could improve the look of canvas work on a boat render. Needs some sag between supports, looks too much like sheet metal. Stitches would be a nice touch!

image.thumb.png.2ca2e4da92e39a08abc280d23dbd2162.png

Hidden lines mode shows dotted lines for hidden edges which do look like stitches here.

Here is full render mode in Thea Render.

image.thumb.png.94a547cf9bee2ab978a7e8c7af9c2c7b.png

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Sebago, pared down so a class A cat reefing type rig and a drifter would make her go, with Adrenaline type rotating amas.  Post modern German lake Jolle styling.  40 feet long, 35 wide?  40?

Or an updated Ocean Surfer.

I’m in a tri mood, although Water Witch....:wub:

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