Pining4

Feasibility to refit a big, old boat?

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Ok, I’ve been obsessing over this for days and even thinking it through requires experience I don’t have, so I though I’d ask the forum- if this doesn’t interest you, please ignore. 

Saw this ad in YW for a 1953 John Alden designed Yawl named Enchanta: steel hull, built in Germany by Abeking & Rasmussen.  

1953-abeking-rasmussen-custom-ocean-crui

67 feet, beam is 15.7, and it was listed five years ago for 660k, probably a reasonable ask at that time, given the condition it was in.  Not anymore.  After (I assume from the pics) sitting around unsold and either outside or at least unprotected for some period, the price is now 64k. So at this point, this is a scrap metal, wood salvage, and fittings price, basically.  

Yet the boat is beautiful (to me), the hull (being steel) should in theory be sound or repairable, and if restored could serve as a stunningly great cruiser...  and it seems, if done properly and with attention to price, could be a solid investment. There’s a lot to work with here for just 64k.

My questions for the board:  First, what would a mid-level restoration/refit cost on a boat this size (ballpark)?  Not top price for everything but not so cheap you couldn’t resell it ?

Second, what would it add to the cost to convert this into a Cutter rather than a yawl?  Is that even feasible or would it blow up the budget?

Third, is this boat trailer-able or would it have to be towed if I wanted to use a yard closer to home (Havre de Grace, MD)?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

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If ya have to ask...  Well you know the rest...

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My questions for the board:  First, what would a mid-level restoration/refit cost on a boat this size (ballpark)?  Not top price for everything but not so cheap you couldn’t resell it ?

 

Again, if ya gotta ask..  Well you know the rest..

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Third, is this boat trailer-able or would it have to be towed if I wanted to use a yard closer to home (Havre de Grace, MD)?

Seriously.. I just got back from happy hour, but wow, Um no..  again, if ya have to ask, Ummmm . you know the rest...

 

Oh..  Apparently there is a big ass island for sale a bit north of Canada.  It would prob be cheeper to buy that and fix her up..  Just sayin...  :)

 

Oh, and you would probably, if you negotiate correctly,  get all the boats that float, + all the ones that need fixin Gratis..  ;)

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In short: no. 

giphy.gif?cid=790b761152f7559a563c77e18a

In long: 

I know this feeling, walking around the harbor, thinking: am I the only one to see this? To see the beauty in this pile of dirt and dust? 

Hey, I could fix this, be a hero and have the story of my life to tell. And these stories happen. But they are rare as Hollywood careers.

One golden rule: never buy a boat that you couldn't sail away on NOW (or that only needs to be lifted into the water). Otherwise, it will not only cost you all your money, but something much more important: your motivation. You will spend endless summers crawling hot dark corners inside your moist, defunct boat, and there will be this nagging thought: I could be sailing right now.

Do this instead:

Set yourself a budget. That is purchase plus at least 50% for repairs. Never tell anyone of this budget. Especially not a seller. Cut this budget in half. Repeat. This is what you're telling the seller. Look for at least three 'targets'. Look at them, while they are in the water. Preferably, take a sail. Wait until they come out of the water for winter storage. If they don't, the current owner is either desperate, broke or careless. If so: abstain.

Take another look, when the boat is on the hard. Get a surveyor. Start offering, before heavy maintenance works start. Once these are complete, bargaining will be much harder, it's a matter of psychology: everybody wants to reap the rewards of hard labour. Either in hard money or another nice season.

Don't be disappointed, if you don't get what you want. Fix your eyes quickly on the next 'target'. Boats find their owners. It only feels the other way around.

 

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT convert an Alden Schooner into a cutter. Don't even think about it. It's heresy and should be made unlawful. Until then: see Liam Neeson memes.

 

No. Steelboats of this size cannot be trailered over land.

 

 

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Are you a skilled and fully equipped welder?

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It will cost, all of it.  

 

Seriously you could put $100k into that and have something just fine, or if the hull needs major work you could spend $100k on the hull alone.  I don't know how old the pictures are but there is a reason that the woodwork/furniture has been removed in some of those shots.  

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1. anything can be moved for enough money, you'd need oversize permits and escort for every place in had to cross. Think many thousands. 

2. I could be converted to a cutter, that would cost many more thousands in rigging and be almost a moral crime. Thats a beautiful boat , if you found a marine architec that was on side with a conversion, he'd be an idiot IMHO.and should not be trusted.

3. if its actually rough enough to be listed at the price it is, I'd imagine you'll be $500k to get it back to where you'd want it. Friend just restored a 58ft glass boat, he was 500k and he's in the industry. But it would be a real moving target. 

4. sails alone would be 60-80K ??

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There is no way someone on this site can give you a cost estimate for a restoration of this or any other boat. Developing such an estimate requires some work on your part with a surveyor, a yard, a rigger and sail maker to determine 1. what condition the boat is in, 2. what you need/want done, and 2. what it will cost to get the boat into the condition you want her.  Even then any number you develop, assuming you can get a number, would be a WAG, given the uncertain nature of what will turn out to actually be required as you work your way through the project. 

If you want to see what's involved in a restoration look at this site concerning the restoration of a Cal 40 - www.berkleymarine.com/restoration-cal-40.  That was a free boat.  It will give you an idea of the steps you would need to take and the people you would have to engage to contemplate such a project.  If I recall correctly the cost of that restoration (admittedly a gold plater) was in the quarter million $$ range. You take on these types of projects because you love the boat, want to see it restored, and while money is no object, it has to be a secondary consideration.  As someone said earlier if you have to ask . . . !

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8 hours ago, Pining4 said:

Ok, I’ve been obsessing over this for days and even thinking it through requires experience I don’t have, so I though I’d ask the forum- if this doesn’t interest you, please ignore. 

Saw this ad in YW for a 1953 John Alden designed Yawl named Enchanta: steel hull, built in Germany by Abeking & Rasmussen.  

1953-abeking-rasmussen-custom-ocean-crui

67 feet, beam is 15.7, and it was listed five years ago for 660k, probably a reasonable ask at that time, given the condition it was in.  Not anymore.  After (I assume from the pics) sitting around unsold and either outside or at least unprotected for some period, the price is now 64k. So at this point, this is a scrap metal, wood salvage, and fittings price, basically.  

Yet the boat is beautiful (to me), the hull (being steel) should in theory be sound or repairable, and if restored could serve as a stunningly great cruiser...  and it seems, if done properly and with attention to price, could be a solid investment. There’s a lot to work with here for just 64k.

My questions for the board:  First, what would a mid-level restoration/refit cost on a boat this size (ballpark)?  Not top price for everything but not so cheap you couldn’t resell it ?

Second, what would it add to the cost to convert this into a Cutter rather than a yawl?  Is that even feasible or would it blow up the budget?

Third, is this boat trailer-able or would it have to be towed if I wanted to use a yard closer to home (Havre de Grace, MD)?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

 

I'll take a shot. 

 

Mid level restoration: That's a good start. You could probably get this sailing for not much $. That is happening all the time today as more and more people want to 'live the dream' and the price of neglected, once nice, boats continues to fall. It's good you know that cheap option only assures this boats death and merely prolongs it's agony. 

 

Seeing big boats like this restored in my area, most are wooden construction and require an entire hull rebuild. That, surprisingly, may not be the biggest cost in some restorations. Especially today as the mechanical and electric complexity of boats, new and fully restored, can drive the cost of some of these beauties way beyond the actual nuts and bolts of the sailboats essential design need cost. 

 

The wild card that I'm thinking could save you some money is the steel hull. But that as well could cost you more to restore than a full plank on frame rebuild. No area to guess here, only an expert can turn that card over. 

 

So guessing you salvage the hull, maybe most of the mechanical, are content without the newest gizmos and will be happy with a more typical standard, you'll still need a boatyard restoration of all the topsides wooden structure, some replacement, maybe a deck - I'm going to add a new deck,  because it has been neglected.

 

And you'll need all new rigging sails, basic electronics,...I'm adding many new parts because you say 'mid range', etc. This will take a year in someones buildings here on the coast of Maine because you'll get the highest value for the least $$$. 

 

$600,000.

 

At that point the insurance survey will be close to 1 mil. You might get the 600 out if you sold it at completion, but you might not. That shouldn't discourage you, it's just the state of the market.

 

Many new builds I see go up for sale 5-7 years later and sell for less than half that was invested. This is actually the smarter investment but of course is no investment, there never is in these. 

 

 

 

 

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I restored a 46’ Ocean racing cutter part time over a 5 year period while running a boat shop figuring it would be a nice family boat for a while. 

Was it worth it? Yes. Did I have the skills, material and location to to the work?  Yes. Does my wife and family care? No. 

Would I do it again? No. 

It took time away from easier projects and relieved me of enough cash to make me realize that I am not a millionaire and as such, shouldn’t think that I can maintain a wooden yacht in anywhere near Bristol condition. 

Now, if you happen to see a 20’+ project, feel free to ask again. I can tell you about the smaller projects that need just as much as the large ones. Maybe you’ll find the gem in the rock pile.

Kevin

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Don't do it to yourself. Buy an already sailing boat. Unless you can pour every penny and spare minute into it it's not worth doing a big boat project. I'm 18 months into a bare hull refit and there is a niggling feeling sometimes of "I should be sailing". If I hadnt at least sailed the boat this summer I'd be a broken man. It's cheap for a reason. 

 

Walk away, buy a Bavaria or something and be happy. 

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The only way to answer the question is to go through the boat, identify the deficiencies, and get quotes for all the work.  Make sure you have a full understanding of the project before you commit because additions to the scope of the project for a boat of this size are not inexpensive. 

We’ve refit an older boat and are very happy the results but we spent a week in, on and under the boat prior to making an offer that was contingent on a professional survey. 

Do your homework and good luck. 

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It’d be better to find a boat someone else spent all their money on all ready.  

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I genuinely appreciate the feedback, opinions, and information- thanks to all for taking the time!  

Probably the only reason I was pondering whether this might be theoretically feasible is that I did something similar with a historic colonial house about ten years ago-  beautiful, but it was going to be destroyed by a gas station.  House disassembled, every board marked/mapped, loaded into three tractor-trailers and shipped across 4 states.  Two years rebuilding it on site w all modern systems within the historic fabric, and I live in it today- it’s s gem.  And if we sold, my real estate agent friend says we’d get our $ back and then some, so it made sense in the end.  

That said, boats are a different animal and this seems not to be an analogous scenario -  my thought of “offer 50, ship for 50, rebuild for 350, and you’ve got a 600k boat for 450” just doesn’t sound like reasonable napkin math. 

But man, these Amish furniture craftsmen here work for cheap...   hmmmmmm... :D

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Aren't those two-stroke Detroits illegal (to operate) now in many states? Maybe I'm wrong, but I recall hearing something like that.

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Unless you have a LOT of discretionary money free will still be very expensive. For starters, how much to park in your neighborhood (both on the hard and in the water)? That is the starting point for your calculations.  It's big and beamy. And teaky - assume those decks need replacing.  Real estate will often increase in value, boats do not. Witness this boats history - admire those who restore them but I don't envy them.  Transporting? Over the road it's over width and length and height so sure it can be done but will be really expensive - lots of permits, limited hours, flagging vehicles. In summary it's your chance to make a small fortune from a large one.

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1 hour ago, Pining4 said:

I genuinely appreciate the feedback, opinions, and information- thanks to all for taking the time!  

Probably the only reason I was pondering whether this might be theoretically feasible is that I did something similar with a historic colonial house about ten years ago-  beautiful, but it was going to be destroyed by a gas station.  House disassembled, every board marked/mapped, loaded into three tractor-trailers and shipped across 4 states.  Two years rebuilding it on site w all modern systems within the historic fabric, and I live in it today- it’s s gem.  And if we sold, my real estate agent friend says we’d get our $ back and then some, so it made sense in the end.  

That said, boats are a different animal and this seems not to be an analogous scenario -  my thought of “offer 50, ship for 50, rebuild for 350, and you’ve got a 600k boat for 450” just doesn’t sound like reasonable napkin math. 

But man, these Amish furniture craftsmen here work for cheap...   hmmmmmm... :D

There are lots and lots of really beautiful boats out there worth saving & it sounds like you have many of the skills and motivation to tackle a big project - maybe think about something smaller and more manageable?  Around here, just keeping a 64' boat on the hard or on a dock for a few years would cost $$$; if you went down to 30-40' everything would be a lot more manageable I suspect (though you'd never get your money back like with the house).  

Or restore another house, make a profit, use said profit to buy a nicely sorted boat... :)

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One quick wakeup to the costs of a boat that huge - a single new halyard in Dyneema/Spectra will cost 4 figures or at least very close to it.

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Twist and wrinkle-

What  if you had the ability to take 18 months to oversee the project yourself and put the boat in the best location for low cost skilled workers (e.g. NC, Turkey, Asia, Gulf Coast, Argentina?)...  

it it feels like the costs of a refit are roughly balanced between labor and parts?

if I had the ability and capital to do a restoration, that’d be my plan. I’d get consulting from an experienced yard/architect or naval engineer while reducing costs.   Benefit would be knowing the installation of every significant piece of equipment before going to sea. 

A new HR-54 is probably over $2MM.  For that amount one could probably buy a very nice used aluminum steel or glass boat and do a fabulous restoration.  Probably half that amount if you buy a decent used boat for 400k or less.  

Boats built over 75 years ago are a special category where the ownership costs may exceed the purchase price annual and are held for beauty rather than utility.  OP’s boat is somewhere in between. For the purpose of the hypothetical will exclude these extreme examples   

Three exemplars:

Dubbel 60 Incomplete

Jongert 20 DS

Swan 61

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You are contemplating a romance. Logic and ROI are somewhat irrelevant. If you have the passion and the cash, you have your answer. 

The photos are not bad, the question is what is the current state of the interior and deck, after "5 years of covered" storage.  

Sails that fit and could be used to "go sailing" probably exist, similarly the basic winches, rigging are probably extant. 

A very large question is on hull & rig integrity. A surveyor could tell you for few thousand dollars the state of the boat and major systems. 

The engine should be started on the hard, an oil sample sent for analysis. 

regarding refurbishment: 

  • You can learn to fit plates and weld, the question is whether you have a place and the time to do so, or the dollars to pay the ship yard. 
  • Deck and interior joinery can also be learned, but question of use of time and place/tools to do so.  Having it adjacent to your workshop is a huge improvement vs a 2 hr drive to fit a board. Then there are very good hand power tools such as "festool" that may allow you to work onboard. 
  • Figure all of the electronics are a toss, and possibly all of the electrical systems. A 1970 refit is better than 1954, but did it update? Standards of wiring have evolved
  • Galley, heads and other plumbing are likely a do-over as well to bring it to modern environmental/ABYC safety codes

what's your opportunity cost ? Will the work be rewarding in the years that it will take? What is your fall back if you are partially completed and you get sick? 

As a comparison: I am engaged in a cosmetic refurbish of a 40' 20,000 lb1962 fiberglass boat that's been actively sailed most of the past 57 yrs and is in the water raced weekly.

I purchased Lioness  for $X in 2000. Current insured/taxed value is 0.5 X 

It costs me 0.1 X for annual slip and YC dues, and I spend about 0.1 X every four years when I haul out and do a bottom. $0.2X for electronics every 10 -15 yrs, and .1 X for sails & .1X for standing rigging every 10 years. I am about due to re-power and that will be 0.1-0.2X depending. 

So in 20 yrs, I have spent about 3X above the purchase on keeping her current, doing all of the work I can, and only having the yard do major stuff, and standing rigging. Sails, running rigging, electronics, head & holding tank etc are current having been replaced as needed over last 20 yrs. 

Standing RIgging is 12 yrs old, inspected in 2017, replaced one shroud with a "meat hook" we are day sailing inshore

1991 Engine and transmission with ~3000 hrs were overhauled in 2018, prop, cutless replaced

Refrigeration, heater, water system and electrical wiring are original, and on list to be replaced

Teak trim and glass deck are in sore need of attention, and the effort to bring the fiberglass cabin top, cockpit  and deck back to pristine appearance is significant, yet progressing as  I am good for a few hours of heavy sanding/grinding at a time, and am working in a YC slip, so being low profile... 

to scale for your prices: your LOA is almost 2X mine, square cube says your structural will be a factor of 8, your cosmetics a factor of 4. 

At the end, you will have a "big old, lovely boat" that has a limited market. If you are doing it for the right reasons, that's not an issue. Expect to have a toy that you can enjoy, but that others may not appreciate. 

 

 

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What's the largest boat you've ever owned?

Do you like to sail? or tinker?

That sheer is butt ugly--- you'll be putting lipstick on a pig, there's nothing that can help that.  Passersby get all google eyed by wood, varnish, brass and bronze.  It's still ugly.

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The real problem with that boat is that it's an eyesore. Forget that the teak-over-steel deck is a formula for disaster, that there is rust streaking down the mast bury, that the interior is pretty clearly molding and rotting ... all of that can be fixed with money and time ... but once fixed, it's still hard to look at ...

You can do much, much better.

 

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1 hour ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Gee, 11' draft. That would be a good cruiser.

With an 11’ draft I’m not sure what it’s doing in the Chesapeake 

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2 hours ago, Israel Hands said:
3 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Gee, 11' draft. That would be a good cruiser.

With an 11’ draft I’m not sure what it’s doing in the Chesapeake 

Running aground a lot, I'd think.

I couldn't get that boat anywhere within about ten miles of my house or sailing club.

Not sure where I picked up this saying, prolly right here in SA: "Shallow draft allows one to run aground in much more interesting places."

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, Israel Hands said:

With an 11’ draft I’m not sure what it’s doing in the Chesapeake 

Probably not much, which is why it’s for sale again 18 months after selling the last time.

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2 hours ago, Israel Hands said:

With an 11’ draft I’m not sure what it’s doing in the Chesapeake 

Could hire itself out to plow up oyster beds.

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At a price like that it seems feasible to cut the keel down and add a bulb to make the boat less restricted.

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Running aground a lot, I'd think.

I couldn't get that boat anywhere within about ten miles of my house or sailing club.

Not sure where I picked up this saying, prolly right here in SA: "Shallow draft allows one to run aground in much more interesting places."

FB- Doug

Alternative to the “nothing goes to windward like a deep fin is  “the VMG of an 11’ draft boat in 9’ of water is 0.00.”

 

 

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Running aground a lot, I'd think.

I couldn't get that boat anywhere within about ten miles of my house or sailing club.

Not sure where I picked up this saying, prolly right here in SA: "Shallow draft allows one to run aground in much more interesting places."

 FB- Doug

Ship it out here - you'd be fine.  

Sort of analogous to "4wd allows you to get stuck farther from home"

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If you are married, add a divorce lawyer to your costs 

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On 8/24/2019 at 1:27 PM, LionessRacing said:

I purchased Lioness  for $X in 2000. Current insured/taxed value is 0.5 X 

I purchased my 27' H-Boat for $X in 2015. Spent $6X on "re-fit." Survey upon completion was $3X.

Lesson: Make sure you get many years of enjoyment. I'm into year 5.

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25 minutes ago, Bull City said:

I purchased my 27' H-Boat for $X in 2015. Spent $6X on "re-fit." Survey upon completion was $3X.

Lesson: Make sure you get many years of enjoyment. I'm into year 5.

We're into year 13. Don't regret a cent.

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7 hours ago, Pipe Dream said:

Spend your $$ up front and get something already done so you can enjoy from day one.

This!

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If the boat has pedigree and history she is more likely to maintain value: I don’t think Enchanta was even a legend in her own lunchtime. 

Tallyho and Ilen (for example) owe their survival to the number of good stories that have gathered around them.  

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11 hours ago, Pipe Dream said:

Spend your $$ up front and get something already done so you can enjoy from day one.

How about if you enjoy restoring them?

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14 hours ago, Bull City said:

I purchased my 27' H-Boat for $X in 2015. Spent $6X on "re-fit." Survey upon completion was $3X.

Lesson: Make sure you get many years of enjoyment. I'm into year 5.

I am into year 20. Looking at an ROI on hobbies is a fraught exercise

 

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

How about if you enjoy restoring them?

That is a good point. I think Pipe Dream is saying, do it up front, to the extent you can, so that you will get the enjoyment.

And I would add the obvious: Sail as often as possible.

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I know the owner of enchanta and sailed on the boat years ago - maybe in the mid-90's.  He had just done the deck and cockpit over and was working on the interior. 

It is an amazing, powerful boat.  It does have an inner forestay so it is a cutter/yawl.  69 tons displacement as I recall.  He loved the boat and poured money into it.  Whatever state it's in now you would need a good survey by someone very good with steel hulls and engines.  The rest you add up as replacement items - sails / running rigging  / standing rigging / paint / yard storage / insurance.

It draws 10.5ft as I recall.  Where will you keep it and where will you go?

  

--Kevin

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1 minute ago, tiz said:

I know the owner of enchanta and sailed on the boat years ago - maybe in the mid-90's.  He had just done the deck and cockpit over and was working on the interior. 

It is an amazing, powerful boat.  It does have an inner forestay so it is a cutter/yawl.  69 tons displacement as I recall.  He loved the boat and poured money into it.  Whatever state it's in now you would need a good survey by someone very good with steel hulls and engines.  The rest you add up as replacement items - sails / running rigging  / standing rigging / paint / yard storage / insurance.

It draws 10.5ft as I recall.  Where will you keep it and where will you go?

  

--Kevin

69 tons.

"Ready to tack"

Yeah, give me about 5 minutes to get mentally ready.  1" dyneema sheets anyone?

Wow.

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4 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

I am into year 20. Looking at an ROI on hobbies is a fraught exercise

 

I keep good track of my boating expenses but I consider it an educational expense rather than recreational one. I learn a lot about a lot of things from owning, sailing, and maintaining/upgrading a boat and have actually applied a surprising amount of the resulting knowledge to my professional activities.

I didn't expect that to be the case but it is and I probably wouldn't have been nearly as successful at my last job if I hadn't owned a boat.

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Hull is about 15% of total cost.  So if the hull had just come off the ways brand new you would only have about 85% to go.

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On 8/24/2019 at 12:22 AM, Pining4 said:

Ok, I’ve been obsessing over this for days and even thinking it through requires experience I don’t have, so I though I’d ask the forum- if this doesn’t interest you, please ignore. 

Saw this ad in YW for a 1953 John Alden designed Yawl named Enchanta: steel hull, built in Germany by Abeking & Rasmussen.  

1953-abeking-rasmussen-custom-ocean-crui

67 feet, beam is 15.7, and it was listed five years ago for 660k, probably a reasonable ask at that time, given the condition it was in.  Not anymore.  After (I assume from the pics) sitting around unsold and either outside or at least unprotected for some period, the price is now 64k. So at this point, this is a scrap metal, wood salvage, and fittings price, basically.  

Yet the boat is beautiful (to me), the hull (being steel) should in theory be sound or repairable, and if restored could serve as a stunningly great cruiser...  and it seems, if done properly and with attention to price, could be a solid investment. There’s a lot to work with here for just 64k.

My questions for the board:  First, what would a mid-level restoration/refit cost on a boat this size (ballpark)?  Not top price for everything but not so cheap you couldn’t resell it ?

Second, what would it add to the cost to convert this into a Cutter rather than a yawl?  Is that even feasible or would it blow up the budget?

Third, is this boat trailer-able or would it have to be towed if I wanted to use a yard closer to home (Havre de Grace, MD)?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Do it. What is the worst that could happen?

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6 minutes ago, Wess said:

Do it. What is the worst that could happen?

In no particular order: Divorce? Bankruptcy? Threadbare retirement? Depression? Suicide? Yeah, do it.

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23 minutes ago, Bull City said:

In no particular order: Divorce? Bankruptcy? Threadbare retirement? Depression? Suicide? Yeah, do it.

Yea but he would be a boat owner! That has got to be worth something no?

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6 hours ago, Raz'r said:

69 tons.

"Ready to tack"

Yeah, give me about 5 minutes to get mentally ready.  1" dyneema sheets anyone?

Wow.

No way that thing displaces 69 tons. Even 49 is too much...

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70,000 Lbs - 35 tons.

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22 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

70,000 Lbs - 35 tons.

Makes more sense but STILL!

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Yea but he would be a boat owner! That has got to be worth something no?

I wouldn’t let your SO see that post!

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As I noted up-thread, I am humbled and most grateful at the generous and highly detailed responses given - to what I figured would be a thread garnering maybe a half dozen replies!  It seems this is a thing many dream about apparently, so i suspect the discussion was useful to many others besides myself.  This is a special community indeed.  Thanks to one and all here for taking the time to answer and share your considerable expertise. 

As I said earlier, I have been convinced by the information presented here- much I already knew but some I hadn’t even known enough to consider-  there are way too many pitfalls and roadblocks for me to make the attempt. So I will gracefully bow out of this one, but have saved the entire, valuable discussion so I can refer to it in the future.  A side effect of this was that it has also convinced me I WILL try this in the future on another boat at some point, when my situation is more conducive to the requirements and I’ve learned are necessary.

Thats a whole lot of ship (and potential) for just 60k. The final product would be wonderful.  But I just can’t get there from here.

Heartfelt thanks for the advice!

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6 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

I wouldn’t let your SO see that post!

Why not. We are in the middle of a second (this one unplanned) refit of a 45 LOA boat.

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19 hours ago, Raz'r said:

69 tons.

"Ready to tack"

Yeah, give me about 5 minutes to get mentally ready.  1" dyneema sheets anyone?

Wow.

When I sailed on it the sails were dacron and there wasn't a scrap of exotic fiber line on it.  Maybe stay-set+ at the most.  Went like a freight train in 12-15kts. sailed from norwalk to port jeff PJ bouy and back in an afternoon.   Tacked just fine.   Dock lines were 1" at least maybe 1.25".  Jib Sheets probably 5/8-3/4 as I recall.

This is one of those magnificent boats where is money were no object it would be an amazing restoration.  What provenance it has is unknown to me but as a deepwater sailboat it is awesome.

--Kevin

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12 hours ago, Pining4 said:

As I noted up-thread, I am humbled and most grateful at the generous and highly detailed responses given - to what I figured would be a thread garnering maybe a half dozen replies!  It seems this is a thing many dream about apparently, so i suspect the discussion was useful to many others besides myself.  This is a special community indeed.  Thanks to one and all here for taking the time to answer and share your considerable expertise. 

As I said earlier, I have been convinced by the information presented here- much I already knew but some I hadn’t even known enough to consider-  there are way too many pitfalls and roadblocks for me to make the attempt. So I will gracefully bow out of this one, but have saved the entire, valuable discussion so I can refer to it in the future.  A side effect of this was that it has also convinced me I WILL try this in the future on another boat at some point, when my situation is more conducive to the requirements and I’ve learned are necessary.

Thats a whole lot of ship (and potential) for just 60k. The final product would be wonderful.  But I just can’t get there from here.

Heartfelt thanks for the advice!

If you got it for free, $60k would make a good beginning.

One of the most important things to make a big restoration project viable is the economics of where you can keep the boat while you work on it. If you have a big waterfront property you can tuck it away on, under a shelter for long enough, and that's an expense you're already covering (or you have a good friend who will let you keep it there for the sake of your sunny smile), that makes it a much more reasonable project.

FB- Doug

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7 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

If you got it for free, $60k would make a good beginning.

One of the most important things to make a big restoration project viable is the economics of where you can keep the boat while you work on it. If you have a big waterfront property you can tuck it away on, under a shelter for long enough, and that's an expense you're already covering (or you have a good friend who will let you keep it there for the sake of your sunny smile), that makes it a much more reasonable project.

FB- Doug

This. My boat is on a mooring out the front of my house and that's a right PITA compared with having it in the shed 20m from my back door.

However there are a few advantages to it being on the mooring.

WRT that boat I'd go & look for the pleasure of nosiness but wouldn't have it as a gift unless I was a millionaire prepared to pour copious amounts of money down a rathole. If you've never done big boat work you have no idea just how time consuming & expensive it will be.

FKT

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If you were a millionare ( ie...an income of $1M a year... $1M in assetsyou  wouldn't be going very far ) you would be buying new....

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1 hour ago, Cisco said:

If you were a millionare ( ie...an income of $1M a year... $1M in assetsyou  wouldn't be going very far ) you would be buying new....

Maybe not. Depends. That's like saying you'd never buy an old house but always have a new one built. There are arguments both ways.

Unlike a house though, you can guarantee that the money you pour into a boat is going straight to the bottom of the ocean and you'll not ever get more than a small fraction back, so it has to be play money, not investment money.

FKT

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16 hours ago, tiz said:

889_Enchanta.jpg

 

http://www.aldendesigns.com/99years/detail.php?ID=1618

 

Displacement is listed as 70,750lbs.   Maybe the 69tons is tonnes as in the documentation capacity (or however that works).   I had a catalina 30 that was 10,200lbs but documented as something like net 7 tonnes.

 

--Kevin

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have to say... The hatches remind me of something...

1e9dfb243f37951ab557e8429c86c052.jpg

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7 hours ago, Matagi said:

I have to say... The hatches remind me of something...

1e9dfb243f37951ab557e8429c86c052.jpg

 

 

On Enchanta they turn 360deg to be able to face the breeze in any direction.

No launchers though.

 

--Kevin

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46 minutes ago, tiz said:

 

 

On Enchanta they turn 360deg to be able to face the breeze in any direction.

No launchers though.

 

--Kevin

Interesting fact. Thanks!

Would make for a nice surprise, though. 

Probably kills your rating.

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On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 1:27 AM, Matagi said:

In short: no. 

giphy.gif?cid=790b761152f7559a563c77e18a

In long: 

I know this feeling, walking around the harbor, thinking: am I the only one to see this? To see the beauty in this pile of dirt and dust? 

Hey, I could fix this, be a hero and have the story of my life to tell. And these stories happen. But they are rare as Hollywood careers.

One golden rule: never buy a boat that you couldn't sail away on NOW (or that only needs to be lifted into the water). Otherwise, it will not only cost you all your money, but something much more important: your motivation. You will spend endless summers crawling hot dark corners inside your moist, defunct boat, and there will be this nagging thought: I could be sailing right now.

Do this instead:

Set yourself a budget. That is purchase plus at least 50% for repairs. Never tell anyone of this budget. Especially not a seller. Cut this budget in half. Repeat. This is what you're telling the seller. Look for at least three 'targets'. Look at them, while they are in the water. Preferably, take a sail. Wait until they come out of the water for winter storage. If they don't, the current owner is either desperate, broke or careless. If so: abstain.

Take another look, when the boat is on the hard. Get a surveyor. Start offering, before heavy maintenance works start. Once these are complete, bargaining will be much harder, it's a matter of psychology: everybody wants to reap the rewards of hard labour. Either in hard money or another nice season.

Don't be disappointed, if you don't get what you want. Fix your eyes quickly on the next 'target'. Boats find their owners. It only feels the other way around.

 

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT convert an Alden Schooner into a cutter. Don't even think about it. It's heresy and should be made unlawful. Until then: see Liam Neeson memes.

 

No. Steelboats of this size cannot be trailered over land.

 

 

That was a thing of beauty, man.  The tactical parts of boat buying are easy (survey, price new sails & insurance, etc.).  But that was good strategic advice on used boat buying. 

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11 hours ago, Matagi said:

I have to say... The hatches remind me of something...

1e9dfb243f37951ab557e8429c86c052.jpg

Had to do a double take... I was scrolling by fast, and saw paint shakers.  :-)

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I’m amazed it’s still floating!

90281B3D-F9F6-46E7-A674-BDFEC1DD2A2C.jpeg

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The feasibility of the refit is directly proportional to the depth of your pocket:P

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On 8/24/2019 at 1:27 AM, Matagi said:

... Boats find their owners. It only feels the other way around...

 

 

 

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Do you really want a boat that big? 

Do you have the crew (volunteer?) available to sail it when YOU want to sail?

Will they help out with routine maintenance?

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6 hours ago, KC375 said:

 

You absolute genius, made my day :) , yes the wand choses the wizard!

 

I just watched this the other day with my twins, so I guess it made a lasting impression!

I confess, I love J.K. Rowling. If anybody has not yet read Harry Potter: Do so. It's not 'just kids stuff'. 

Get the new editions with the beautiful illustrations of Jim Kay:

7320d51cfe93736a2efa5994fd9c5c44.jpg

// end of massive deviation from topic //

 

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3 hours ago, Matagi said:

...

I confess, I love J.K. Rowling. If anybody has not yet read Harry Potter: Do so. It's not 'just kids stuff'. 

Get the new editions with the beautiful illustrations of Jim Kay:

 

 

Isn’t that why we have kids? So we can pretend we are experiencing kids lit or children’s movies for them, when really it is with them.

I read the Potter books twice, as they came out. Starting out loud to my kids at bed time, and then alone finishing them so the next night I was rereading them. Let’s face it when you find yourself at the office making reference to the Fox and The Hound, Finding Nemo, or Monsters Inc, your dignity is protected by having children that you must have watched them with.

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On 8/28/2019 at 3:11 AM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Maybe not. Depends. That's like saying you'd never buy an old house but always have a new one built. There are arguments both ways.

Unlike a house though, you can guarantee that the money you pour into a boat is going straight to the bottom of the ocean and you'll not ever get more than a small fraction back, so it has to be play money, not investment money.

FKT

Houses are different.... its the site value that you are putting the money into..... ok... that's the same as a hole in the water .... but different....

What we have here is a boat where the designer took an each way bet on whether or not reverse sheer was the next big thing which has now been stripped out downstairs so  we are just left with a 60 year old steel shell...

 

There is a reason it went from c.$600,000 to $60,000... which is still $100k too much.

 

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37 minutes ago, Cisco said:

There is a reason it went from c.$600,000 to $60,000... which is still $100k too much.

Yep. There's an 80 footer available pretty much for free near me, stripped out.

It's way, way too expensive.

FKT

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