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Jules

1/2 Billion Opiod Pills and Florida Officials Had No Idea

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60 Minutes did an expose tonight about what may be ground zero for the opioid crisis.  Florida and the unregulated explosion of one-stop-shop pain clinics. 

Of the 500,000,000 pills distributed to Florida in the last 10 or so years, about 2/3 came from Mallinckrodt, a pharmaceutical company that flooded the nation with tens of billions of opioid pills.  

Florida state attorney Dave Aronberg said,  "We had more pain clinics in the years 2010 and 2011 than we had McDonald's, in those years. There was one street in Broward County, Oakland Park Boulevard, that had 31 different pain clinics on the one street."  Pain clinics were loosely regulated medical offices where patients could pick up pills, usually for cash, few questions asked.

Of course, Mallinckrodt received a slap on the hand. 

Gee, I wonder how much they contributed to the campaign war chests of the Republican politicians who control Florida?  Obviously, it was enough.  Because there's no way Florida officials were clueless about this.

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Damn!................... If I'd only known! I coulda been a hundredaire in weeks!

 The people who stole my Oxycontin pills last year (I wasn't using them anyway, I hate Oxys) got a really bad surprise when my new script bottle came in and was filled with industrial strength laxitives.... Funny.... Those people don't come to visit anymore.....

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Someone did a piece recently on the pill mills in Kentucky and W Va, you know, where a town of 800 people has a couple million pills shipped in.  They were just really depressed.... or were expecting Rush to visit.

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3 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Oakland Park Blvd. is a very long street, but 31 is still an impressive number. 

Yes lived off that Blvd many moons ago used to count the miles by the strip malls with a Maccas and or a Burger King repeating as you travelled along.

That was depressing no wonder the locals are popping pills.

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2 hours ago, Jules said:

 there's no way Florida officials were clueless about this.

You sure about that?

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8 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

You sure about that?

You forget a significant percentage of that crowd are the opioid problem.

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9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

You sure about that?

How could they not know about all the pain clinics opening?  How could they not see lines out the doors of those pain clinics? 

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4 minutes ago, Jules said:

How could they not know about all the pain clinics opening?  How could they not see lines out the doors of those pain clinics? 

Of course they knew. They knew that Best Americans were making busloads of money from it. And the Guvna? He’s in the Senate now, with Moscow Mitch there to run interference on any attempt to crack down on the profiteers. 

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2 minutes ago, shubrook said:

Keep reading about that place. Pretty weird....

As the lady we bought our house from was fond of saying, "It's Flahwiduh, get used to it!"

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2 minutes ago, Jules said:

As the lady we bought our house from was fond of saying, "It's Flahwiduh, get used to it!"

Yea, but Broward County is also Debbie "Noodles" Wasserman Schultz's disctirct - one of the woman who rigged the DNC primary for Hillary. There was also a guy testifying about the clintons that died on the beach in a definitely not suspicious way, then that school shooting...

Broward County is like the bermuda triangle of government fuckery.

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Keep part of the population scared and the other nicely sedated.....??

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49 minutes ago, shubrook said:

Yea, but Broward County is also Debbie "Noodles" Wasserman Schultz's disctirct - one of the woman who rigged the DNC primary for Hillary. There was also a guy testifying about the clintons that died on the beach in a definitely not suspicious way, then that school shooting...

Broward County is like the bermuda triangle of government fuckery.

I lived the first 64 years of my life in Illinois and came to believe Illinois was the capital of corruption.  Then I moved to Florida and discovered Illinois has nothing on this state.  And there's Florida Man.  No other state can compete with that! 

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10 minutes ago, mad said:

Keep part of the population scared and the other nicely sedated.....??

Egg-zackley. A steady stream of good old Long Island Sound bullshit and a bucket full of login names from which to post it. 

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1 hour ago, shubrook said:

Yea, but Broward County is also Debbie "Noodles" Wasserman Schultz's disctirct - one of the woman who rigged the DNC primary for Hillary. There was also a guy testifying about the clintons that died on the beach in a definitely not suspicious way, then that school shooting...

Broward County is like the bermuda triangle of government fuckery.

I always thought being a Member of Congress meant that you represented a local Congressional district in Washington DC. I never knew that it also gave a Critter local regulatory and governing authority. Add this to that ever lengthening list, Shit I Learned On PA.

Yawn.

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2 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

I always thought being a Member of Congress meant that you represented a local Congressional district in Washington DC. I never knew that it also gave a Critter local regulatory and governing authority. Add this to that ever lengthening list, Shit I Learned On PA.

Yawn.

"hurr durr Noodles doesn't have any say over Broward county. Therefore when someone points out all the corrupt shit that happens is also where noodles lives, i can discount that observation and keep thinking that the left are the good guys."

 

Image result for brainlet

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12 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

I always thought being a Member of Congress meant that you represented a local Congressional district in Washington DC. I never knew that it also gave a Critter local regulatory and governing authority. Add this to that ever lengthening list, Shit I Learned On PA.

Yawn.

Plenty of bullshit to go around.  Rep. Wasserperson represents the condo commandos in a section of Broward County, and part of Dade County.  No need to listen to (or quote) bullshitters, when research takes seconds.    

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2 hours ago, Jules said:

How could they not know about all the pain clinics opening?  How could they not see lines out the doors of those pain clinics? 

I guess I should have used purple.

Florida officials seem pretty clueless much of the time.

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31 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I guess I should have used purple.

Florida officials seem pretty clueless much of the time.

Ok.  To be fair.  What 'officials' are we talking about?  Who should have called a halt to all these LEGAL activities?  The only illegalities were the lying about the affects and addition rates (to the best of my knowledge).

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Florida officials seem pretty clueless much of the time.

Based on what I've seen here, they know exactly what they are doing.  They just play dumb when it suits them.

1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

Ok.  To be fair.  What 'officials' are we talking about?  Who should have called a halt to all these LEGAL activities?  The only illegalities were the lying about the affects and addition rates (to the best of my knowledge).

You're not suggesting dispensing 500,000,000 opioid pills to Florida clinics, or prescribing something like 60 opioid pills a day to one patient is legal, are you?

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1 hour ago, Jules said:

Based on what I've seen here, they know exactly what they are doing.  They just play dumb when it suits them.

You're not suggesting dispensing 500,000,000 opioid pills to Florida clinics, or prescribing something like 60 opioid pills a day to one patient is legal, are you?

Don't be an asshole. 

60 minutes has a vested interested in finding the biggest scariest numbers out there and making them look as scary as possible, and I'd like to know what the unTrumped-up numbers look like.  500,000,000 over what time period?  5 years?  7? 10?

You had a scary quote about pain clinics - yet the same guy (the Florida AG) who said that also admitted that they were legal:

Dave Aronberg: You could get the prescription and get the drug right there on the spot. One-stop shopping. People would race down to Florida, because we didn't have the same controls as other states. We fed the entire nation's addiction.

lf the numbers I've located suggest that Florida was pretty much average (or slightly above).  In 2017, Florida providers wrote 60.9 opioid prescriptions for every 100 persons (Figure 2), compared to the average U.S. rate of 58.7 prescriptions. 

https://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/opioids/opioid-summaries-by-state/florida-opioid-summary

So here is what it looks like:  Florida's shitty legislators made these activities legal.  The drug company enabled it.  The doctors fed it.  The distributors closed their eyes.

One doctor is in prison for prescribing dozens of pills a day to the same patients.  But the rest?  It's not clear at all.

What laws made this illegal, for whom?  What officials knew about it and did nothing?

 

On another note, the transcriptions of the interviews (yes, I actually read them, gosh...) transcribed the drug company's name as Melon Kraut.  I found that hilarious.

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5 minutes ago, NotTrueWind said:

why do liberals hate freedom again?

Why do you keep coming back with different sockpuppets?? Aren’t you sufficiently proud of your posts to personally stand behind them?? 

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21 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

500,000,000 over what time period?  5 years?  7? 10?

That number is from 2008 to 2012.

image.png.8ae5267cad930942d0fa7d75d4f4d27d.png

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-opioid-epidemic-who-is-to-blame-60-minutes-2019-08-25/

BTW, Mallinkrodt was two thirds. If you add the other third, then it's 750,000,000 million pills in 4 years in Florida.

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4 minutes ago, NotTrueWind said:

I had to google sockpuppet. 

Sorry to disappoint.  I am not one.

Have you considered becoming one?   Outsourcing might upgrade the quality of your repartee. 

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1 minute ago, Olsonist said:

Thanks olson.  Scary numbers indeed.  My cheapo calculator on my desk doesn't even go that high.

So we've got a doctor in prison over this, because he prescribed more pills that could be physically taken by more than an order of magnitude.  As for the rest - I'm still quite curious what laws were broken.

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1 minute ago, Grrr... said:

Thanks olson.  Scary numbers indeed.  My cheapo calculator on my desk doesn't even go that high.

So we've got a doctor in prison over this, because he prescribed more pills that could be physically taken by more than an order of magnitude.  As for the rest - I'm still quite curious what laws were broken.

Are you planning a run for Florida AG? Great start!

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53 minutes ago, NotTrueWind said:

I had to google sockpuppet. 

Sorry to disappoint.  I am not one.

Bullshit.

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1 hour ago, lasal said:

Are you planning a run for Florida AG? Great start!

Well,last I checked we generally put people in prison for breaking a law.  The wrongful death suits will probably be class action and the company will pay a small fine and then be absolved of future damages.

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5 hours ago, Grrr... said:

Ok.  To be fair.  What 'officials' are we talking about?  Who should have called a halt to all these LEGAL activities?  The only illegalities were the lying about the affects and addition rates (to the best of my knowledge).

The doctors at the one stop pill clinics clearly failed to meet standard of care.  I suspect they were mostly near retirement and making a last ditch effort to find yacht money.   Doctors in general were lied to by the drug manufactures, who initially pushed oxycontin as non addictive and suggested you are letting your patient suffer if you don't give them a few fixes.    Distributors were legally charged with monitoring for unusual or inappropriate dispensing patterns.   Every dose can be tracked by lot number from factory to prescribed patient.    Many obvious problems were not reported.  The appropriate section of the DEA was an underfunded and unloved stepchild.   All the attention went to the illegal importing of drugs.  As a result, Walmart, CVS and Walgreens were among the nation's largest pushers of abused drugs.    https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/08/22/753114950/tales-of-corporate-painkiller-pushing-the-death-rates-just-soared   He does overstate the 'zombie land' of Ohio.  

I have personal experience with a county coroner in Kentucky (elected position).    When a friend's mother was found dead in bed he ignored the concerns that she was a drug seeking chronic pain patient with signs of dependency, and ruled 'natural causes'.   I believe many similar middle class middle age or elderly victims are uncounted, to avoid the stigma of too many overdoses among the 'nice people' of the community.    

See John Oliver for a more entertaining look at the failure of having the drug companies regulate themselves.   The occasional fine was $100 / million dollars grossed, and of no consequence.  

 

 

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Meanwhile Trump and his base are convinced the drug problem is coming in over the southern border. It never ends.

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10 minutes ago, NotTrueWind said:

how's the pay?

 

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Just now, NotTrueWind said:

and guess who is going to pay.... dum dum dummmmmm.......  you... the consumer.

Never buy drugs, Ridgelines or F35s. Nothing good comes from any of them. 

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1 minute ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Never buy drugs, Ridgelines or F35s. Nothing good comes from any of them. 

Nor toy cannons, Trump presidential coins or bundles of Bushmasters.

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I'm waiting for SA legal eagles to weigh in agreeing with Bernie . . 

that those pill pushers, makers, sellers, enablers, etc. 

are guilty of premeditated murder. 

Manson had nothing on those monsters 

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12 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Meanwhile Trump and his base are convinced the drug problem is coming in over the southern border. It never ends.

And from China re Fentanyl. FedEx and UPS now have to check for it in packages shipped from China as per Presidential order. There were several Tweets on this. Many hearts were tapped and retweets retweeted.

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6 minutes ago, lasal said:

And from China re Fentanyl. FedEx and UPS now have to check for it in packages shipped from China as per Presidential order. There were several Tweets on this. Many hearts were tapped and retweets retweeted.

Well that’s going to fuck with the Amazon orders! 

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1 minute ago, NotTrueWind said:

guess you never knew anyone who suffered chronic pain in their lives but can't get relief now.

Sure, the rest of us since you returded.

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2 hours ago, Grrr... said:

As for the rest - I'm still quite curious what laws were broken.

Probably none - that's kind of the point I think.

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3 minutes ago, NotTrueWind said:

guess you never knew anyone who suffered chronic pain in their lives but can't get relief now.

Guess you were born without the common sense, social skills and the basic amount of brains that the good lord is supposed to dispense.  Sorry about that.  But you better go get another sock.  Because you didn't pass the test with this one.

But to answer the question - oh yes, I certainly have and Oxycontin is an evil bit of chemistry.

So long.

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2 minutes ago, mad said:

Well that’s going to fuck with the Amazon orders! 

No kidding. But I do think there is Fentanyl in Chinese dog toys. Our dog sleeps a lot! They should check the dog toys. That's how all the Fentanyl is getting into the country I bet.

4 minutes ago, NotTrueWind said:

guess you never knew anyone who suffered chronic pain in their lives but can't get relief now.

dude, emerge from the basement and get some sun

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6 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Sure, the rest of us since you returded.

Which sock is this? 

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8 minutes ago, NotTrueWind said:

guess you never knew anyone who suffered chronic pain in their lives but can't get relief now.

Go get another sock puppet ya returd.  They are easy as pie to get legally for REAL pain.

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If Trump was serious about wanting to control illegal drug importing he could replace his border wall with a ten inch tall wall across every airport runway.   If he wanted to control drug abuse he would address the pharmaceutical industry.   

There is some new stuff in development that uses antibodies given by injection to deactivate key pathways associated with inflammation or pain for a few weeks.  I don't know any details, therefore am free to talk.   It should avoid a buzz or high, and be non addictive.  

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3 minutes ago, lasal said:

No kidding. But I do think there is Fentanyl in Chinese dog toys. Our dog sleeps a lot! They should check the dog toys. That's how all the Fentanyl is getting into the country I bet.

dude, emerge from the basement and get some sun

You guys need a bigger wall and a trade ban...... oh wait. 

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7 minutes ago, Lark said:

If Trump was serious about wanting to control illegal drug importing he could replace his border wall with a ten inch tall wall across every airport runway.   If he wanted to control drug abuse he would address the pharmaceutical industry.   

There is some new stuff in development that uses antibodies given by injection to deactivate key pathways associated with inflammation or pain for a few weeks.  I don't know any details, therefore am free to talk.   It should avoid a buzz or high, and be non addictive.  

Link??

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9 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Sgt. Mini-Cannon and Trump coins, back on duty. 

 

74D7E6F5-C48B-4FF9-86BB-6755A588B2F1.jpeg

I had Federalist down for that, or is this another one? 

Fuck, I can’t keep up with all the socks here and ACA. 

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27 minutes ago, mad said:

Link??

 Sorry, a conversation from an industry employee not involved with product development, therefore not bound by a non disclosure.  He thinks it is a year or two away.   

Edit @mad.  Here is a short thing for an oncology application.   It says don't distribute, but is on youtube.   Products exist for certain tumors with predictable surface proteins, as well as immune mediated disease control and to block a key pathway related to the itch cycle for dogs.   They don't always combine a drug with the antibody, some use the antibody to directly clog up a receptor.  I think these targeted treatments have huge potential to avoid side affects and drug interactions.   

 

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4 minutes ago, mad said:

I had Federalist down for that, or is this another one? 

Fuck, I can’t keep up with all the socks here and ACA. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the true idiots like Hopeless Hillary were running multiple socks simultaneously.

There is more stupidity here than statistically warranted.

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8 minutes ago, mad said:

I had Federalist down for that, or is this another one? 

Fuck, I can’t keep up with all the socks here and ACA. 

Both. 

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Judge awarded 550 million today in the case against Johnson and Johnson. Wow!

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4 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Both. 

I need some meds for this place. 

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3 minutes ago, mad said:

I need some meds for this place. 

I prescribe several weeks of bed rest in a dark room with no internet access.

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1 minute ago, Ishmael said:

I prescribe several weeks of bed rest in a dark room with no internet access.

Cold Turkey and without meds....you’re asking a lot Ish :wacko:

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31 minutes ago, mad said:

Which sock is this? 

I can't keep up - the WLIS clowns, Nannygoat, Trog, Coors and company - probably only a couple of maroons who have nothing better to do than take their daily dumps here. I don't think any are Malarkey - his ego rivals Trump and he could never help throwing in a bunch of autobiographical crap. But who knows.  Or cares. 

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1 minute ago, Navig8tor said:

Cold Turkey and without meds....you’re asking a lot Ish :wacko:

I didn't say he couldn't have scotch and a cuddle with a cutie.

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Just now, d'ranger said:

I can't keep up - the WLIS clowns, Nannygoat, Trog, Coors and company - probably only a couple of maroons who have nothing better to do than take their daily dumps here. I don't think any are Malarkey - his ego rivals Trump and he could never help throwing in a bunch of autobiographical crap. But who knows.  Or cares. 

Can somebody, the regulars here start a thread with some quick updates please? 

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2 minutes ago, NotTrueWind said:

Sorry bunch of statists in this shithole.

I'm out.

I'll get my sailing fix on the water.

You were looking for a sailing fix in PA?

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1 minute ago, Ishmael said:

I didn't say he couldn't have scotch and a cuddle with a cutie.

Thanks Ish, the second part of the treatment sounds great. 

Did exactly that over the weekend, didn’t touch my phone at any time. 

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Yeah, I'd post a lot more too, but our team is pretty busy winning sailboat races . .

Not tired of it yet !! 

Just to be clear, Bernie is quite right to call Big Pharma murderers - and not just because of opioids   

5 hours ago, chum said:

Judge awarded 550 million today in the case against Johnson and Johnson. Wow!

And their stock went UP - Big Pharma murders with impunity. 

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Drug war failures always lead to calls for more failed drug war efforts.

Quote

If there is a pattern to be seen in the facts cited by Higham et al., it is not the Obama administration's insufficient zealousness in prosecuting the war on drugs. It is the fultility of that endeavor, which never manages to block the supply of illegal drugs, as Donald Trump keeps promising to do, but does manage to make drug use more dangerous. Prohibition created a black market in which potency is highly variable, which leads to fatal dosing errors. Restricting access to prescription analgesics pushed more people into that market, resulting in more fatalities. Attempts to curtail the heroin supply encouraged the shift to fentanyl, which made potency even more unpredictable and drug-related deaths even more common.

 

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4 hours ago, Repastinate Tom said:

Drug war failures always lead to calls for more failed drug war efforts.

 

Hi there, Pooplius.

Over a period of years, my kid brother housed 200 junkies in a re-hab house. He burned out, eventually. 

He bitches about big pharma a lot.

Years ago he told me that one could get on a plane to Florida and be back with a suitcase full of pills...without breaking any laws. 

Johnson and Johnson produced the very crop in the ground on this one, eh?


Sounds like we need regulations in FL and elsewhere. Just sayin'.

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16 hours ago, Grrr... said:

Go get another sock puppet ya returd.  They are easy as pie to get legally for REAL pain.

Not if you go to a real doctor.

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Tom will be along shortly to explain that the government should not interfere with the rights of corporate citizens to sell addictive pharmaceuticals to non corporate citizens. Guy will be concerned yet optimistic. Jeff will ask, where the gun thread at?

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16 minutes ago, Jules said:

Not if you go to a real doctor.

Oh please, tell us more about how opiods are unavailable from 'real' doctors.  Because my cardiologist, neurosurgeon, and general practictioner would ALL disagree considering that they've prescribed them for me after a heart attack, cervical fusion, and kidney stones.  As would the doctors of many of the people I'm with in cardiac rehab.  Let's see, there's the diabetic who had his toes amputated.  He got 'em.  There's the guy who just had open heart a month ago.  He got 'em.  The guy who broke his leg on the treadmill two weeks ago when his pacemaker hit 'em while he was running and he fell.  He got 'em.  Buddy who was recently hit by a car while riding on his motorcycle and had a compound fracture of his upper leg.... he got 'em.

Jesus.  You're as bad as shubrook for the posting of total bullshit.  I sense the ignore list in your future.

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1 minute ago, Grrr... said:

Oh please, tell us more about how opiods are unavailable from 'real' doctors.  Because my cardiologist, neurosurgeon, and general practictioner would ALL disagree considering that they've prescribed them for me in the last month.

Jesus.  You're as bad as shubrook for the posting of total bullshit.  I feel an ignore function coming on.

I don't know what doctors you go to but that's not been my experience or the experience of anyone I know.  Two of my neighbors are nurses and both said opioids are only prescribed in extreme cases.  The guy across the street, who was 75 at the time, was going 40 on his motorcycle when he hit some construction gravel and took a nasty spill.  He broke some ribs, his wrist and had severe pavement abrasions on his arms and legs.  He looked like he belonged in the hospital.  The doctor told him to go pick up some Tylenol on the way home.  He would not prescribe opioids.

I could go on but I've better things to do that trying to convince an expert such as yourself that your little world isn't universal.

But please hit the ignore.  I'd like a break from your biased, closed-minded expert opinions.

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25 minutes ago, Jules said:

Not if you go to a real doctor.

 

15 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

Oh please, tell us more about how opiods are unavailable from 'real' doctors.  Because my cardiologist, neurosurgeon, and general practictioner would ALL disagree considering that they've prescribed them for me after a heart attack, cervical fusion, and kidney stones.  As would the doctors of many of the people I'm with in cardiac rehab.  Let's see, there's the diabetic who had his toes amputated.  He got 'em.  There's the guy who just had open heart a month ago.  He got 'em.  The guy who broke his leg on the treadmill two weeks ago when his pacemaker hit 'em while he was running and he fell.  He got 'em.  Buddy who was recently hit by a car while riding on his motorcycle and had a compound fracture of his upper leg.... he got 'em.

Jesus.  You're as bad as shubrook for the posting of total bullshit.  I sense the ignore list in your future.

I was given morphine, then prescribed Valium and Oxysomething and Ibuprofin during my last little trip to the hospital. I was back to work in two weeks dealing with a lot of pain, but the Oxywhatevers were not an option due to the fact that I had to think here and there. For the first few days those things saved me however. I can see how truck drivers get addicted to them. My neurologist woulda been happy to write me more Oxys, he explained that some of his patients take eight per day! This is Kaiser Permanente too.

Unfortunately there is no magic pain eraser. And doctor's are caught between providing relief and providing a difficult addiction to kick. The unethical and illegal part comes when doctors give up their ethical duties and succumb to the pressures of big pharma while regulators watch the obviously out of whack numbers and do nothing. I'm for decriminalization to end the drug war, but I'm not sure allowing opiods onto the street would end outside of far more homelessness.

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2 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Tom will be along shortly to explain that the government should not interfere with the rights of corporate citizens to sell addictive pharmaceuticals to non corporate citizens. Guy will be concerned yet optimistic. Jeff will ask, where the gun thread at?

I'd like to hear JerKZ explain how it is one of the positive benefits of unrestrained capitalism.

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1 hour ago, lasal said:

Unfortunately there is no magic pain eraser. And doctor's are caught between providing relief and providing a difficult addiction to kick. The unethical and illegal part comes when doctors give up their ethical duties and succumb to the pressures of big pharma while regulators watch the obviously out of whack numbers and do nothing. I'm for decriminalization to end the drug war, but I'm not sure allowing opiods onto the street would end outside of far more homelessness.

This is closest to the truth in my family's (not personal) experience.  A legitimate prescription for pain - a hip replacement gone bad requiring the removal of a septic hip joint - turned into addiction and then cold-turkey stopping when the disorientation and stupidity that the Oxycontin induced was worse than the pain.  Unfortunately, the lesson learned the hard way was that the only available treatment was to re-addict then go through months long managed withdrawal while under 24-hour care.  

Ultimately - according to the patient - the pain and disability caused by the Oxycontin was worse than the pain caused by not having a hip joint for 5 months.  

This was 6-8 years ago.  I believe/hope that the pain prescription practices might be different now.  

 

I've known several heroin users that were real-world functional and managed their addiction.  I'm not sure that's the case for Oxycontin/Fentanyl addicts.  

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14 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

This is closest to the truth in my family's (not personal) experience.  A legitimate prescription for pain - a hip replacement gone bad requiring the removal of a septic hip joint - turned into addiction and then cold-turkey stopping when the disorientation and stupidity that the Oxycontin induced was worse than the pain.  Unfortunately, the lesson learned the hard way was that the only available treatment was to re-addict then go through months long managed withdrawal while under 24-hour care.  

Ultimately - according to the patient - the pain and disability caused by the Oxycontin was worse than the pain caused by not having a hip joint for 5 months.  

This was 6-8 years ago.  I believe/hope that the pain prescription practices might be different now.  

 

I've known several heroin users that were real-world functional and managed their addiction.  I'm not sure that's the case for Oxycontin/Fentanyl addicts.  

That's a tough story to even hear about, and thankfully your family member made a recovery. Rereading my own post, I've oversimplified the issue. For long term pain management the medical issues are incredibly complex and 99% of doctors are executing best practices I'd guess. As these pill pushing cases go forward we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water as laypersons. Doctors have a damn tough job as it is and thank God for them.

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43 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I'd like to hear JerKZ explain how it is one of the positive benefits of unrestrained capitalism.

I wouldn't.

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20 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Do you think that litigating for damages is the best way to address the problem? 

Among the best.  The legislature sure as shit isn't going to solve a problem.  Let the Best Americans try to buy a jury.  Congress is much easier to buy, and it is perfectly legal. 

Corpeeople understand one thing, money.  They don't care how many people they kill, how many lives they ruin, or any other thing that any responsible person would consider.  They care about the bottom line.  Impact that and you get their attention. Sadly, 500 million will not impact J&J's bottom line one iota. 

 

Edit:  Purdue offers to settle.  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/purdue-pharma-offers-10-12-billion-settle-opioid-claims-n1046526 

That's all it took.  One scary result, and the tactic of trying to outspend the little people so that they give up goes right out the window. 

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1 minute ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

They don't care how many people they kill...

They call them Golden Skeletons. 

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By the way, when I wrote about my family member rejecting Oxycontin because it caused intolerable disorientation and stupidity, please recall that apparently Rush Limbaugh has been a big fan of Oxycontin.

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52 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:
55 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Do you think that litigating for damages is the best way to address the problem? 

Among the best.  The legislature sure as shit isn't going to solve a problem.  Let the Best Americans try to buy a jury.  Congress is much easier to buy, and it is perfectly legal. 

Corpeeople understand one thing, money.  They don't care how many people they kill, how many lives they ruin, or any other thing that any responsible person would consider.  They care about the bottom line.  Impact that and you get their attention. Sadly, 500 million will not impact J&J's bottom line one iota. 

 

Edit:  Purdue offers to settle.  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/purdue-pharma-offers-10-12-billion-settle-opioid-claims-n1046526 

That's all it took.  One scary result, and the tactic of trying to outspend the little people so that they give up goes right out the window. 

as long as they follow it up by using the company sales records to track down and punish the folks that wrote all the perscriptions

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54 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Among the best.  The legislature sure as shit isn't going to solve a problem.  Let the Best Americans try to buy a jury.  Congress is much easier to buy, and it is perfectly legal. 

Corpeeople understand one thing, money.  They don't care how many people they kill, how many lives they ruin, or any other thing that any responsible person would consider.  They care about the bottom line.  Impact that and you get their attention. Sadly, 500 million will not impact J&J's bottom line one iota. 

 

Edit:  Purdue offers to settle.  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/purdue-pharma-offers-10-12-billion-settle-opioid-claims-n1046526 

That's all it took.  One scary result, and the tactic of trying to outspend the little people so that they give up goes right out the window. 

 

I'm thinking about what would be the best balance of helping the people who have addiction issues,  establishing a solid deterrent to future wrongdoing, while not impeding medical research and advancement.   I don't argue the points you made, but I'm trying to rationalize the efficacy of litigation for damages /vs/ other approaches that might have a more positive outcome for society as a whole.  The tough part is that I've not thought through all the possibilities associated w/the other approaches I'm thinking about, and don't feel comfortable bringing them up as viable solutions 'til I have. 

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2 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

 

I'm thinking about what would be the best balance of helping the people who have addiction issues,  establishing a solid deterrent to future wrongdoing, while not impeding medical research and advancement.   I don't argue the points you made, but I'm trying to rationalize the efficacy of litigation for damages /vs/ other approaches that might have a more positive outcome for society as a whole.  The tough part is that I've not thought through all the possibilities associated w/the other approaches I'm thinking about, and don't feel comfortable bringing them up as viable solutions 'til I have. 

If you want future help for people with addiction issues, that has to come from Congress.  I don't see much coming out of the Senate, unless it helps billionaires. Folks with addiction issues are lost, unless they are from a good American family that can pay for rehab, I fear. 

But letting companies know that they will pay dearly for creating another lost generation may get them to change their ways.  The whole "epidemic" is nothing but another pipeline for sucking money out of the meek and pumping it into the accounts of the powerful. Courts are the only place that is going to get addressed.  

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5 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

If you want future help for people with addiction issues, that has to come from Congress.  I don't see much coming out of the Senate, unless it helps billionaires. Folks with addiction issues are lost, unless they are from a good American family that can pay for rehab, I fear. 

But letting companies know that they will pay dearly for creating another lost generation may get them to change their ways.  The whole "epidemic" is nothing but another pipeline for sucking money out of the meek and pumping it into the accounts of the powerful. Courts are the only place that is going to get addressed.  

In terms of incentives to prevent "creating another lost generation" - I'm thinking something that hits a lot harder and longer.  Perhaps making big pharma liable not fiscally, but, in reality for coming up with solutions to the problems caused by their behavior, preventing the companies found guilty of wrongdoing from manufacturing and selling those substances in the US until they do.  This seems to be well within the purview of the regulatory apparatus, but, also has the potential to harm consumers. 

If big pharma knew it was going to be on the hook for a long term liability, I'd like to think that consideration of that liability would inform their behavior.   

That all said - there's more to this equation than greedy industry, and I'm not sure how litigating big Pharma addresses those additional factors.  So - I'm not arguing against your perspective, but, thinking out loud about whether or not there's a better approach. 

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2 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

In terms of incentives to prevent "creating another lost generation" - I'm thinking something that hits a lot harder and longer.  Perhaps making big pharma liable not fiscally, but, in reality for coming up with solutions to the problems caused by their behavior, preventing the companies found guilty of wrongdoing from manufacturing and selling those substances in the US until they do.  This seems to be well within the purview of the regulatory apparatus, but, also has the potential to harm consumers. 

If big pharma knew it was going to be on the hook for a long term liability, I'd like to think that consideration of that liability would inform their behavior.   

That all said - there's more to this equation than greedy industry, and I'm not sure how litigating big Pharma addresses those additional factors.  So - I'm not arguing against your perspective, but, thinking out loud about whether or not there's a better approach. 

I'd be all in favor of that, but I do not think that the legislative branch of our government is capable of that at the moment.  The only time Congress moves in a hurry is when rich folks' fortunes are at risk. Case in point, October 2008.  They moved like lightning then. Congress doesn't move like that for ordinary people.   Even if they could, it would have to get past the executive branch, and big pharma's lobbyists would put a stop to that. We chose to burn the bitch down.  The bitch is burnt. 

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4 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

In terms of incentives to prevent "creating another lost generation" - I'm thinking something that hits a lot harder and longer.  Perhaps making big pharma liable not fiscally, but, in reality for coming up with solutions to the problems caused by their behavior, preventing the companies found guilty of wrongdoing from manufacturing and selling those substances in the US until they do.  This seems to be well within the purview of the regulatory apparatus, but, also has the potential to harm consumers. 

If big pharma knew it was going to be on the hook for a long term liability, I'd like to think that consideration of that liability would inform their behavior.   

That all said - there's more to this equation than greedy industry, and I'm not sure how litigating big Pharma addresses those additional factors.  So - I'm not arguing against your perspective, but, thinking out loud about whether or not there's a better approach. 

IMO the only way to prevent opiod abuse is for them to be inpatient only. We would need new kind of clinic where you go to recover after you leave the hospial.

Massive front loaded costs, but I think it would be cheaper in the long term - waay cheaper if you quantify the economic impact of opiod addiction.

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