spiritwolf15x

420 better self bailing cockpit ideas?

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Hello everyone, new to the forum. 

I have an older 420 that I'm in the process of fixing up/hot-rodding and I was wondering if there are any ideas out there for a better design for the self bailing cockpit drains. As much as I like sailing a bathtub... I need them to be more effective.

 

Thanks.

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What is the current problem with them? Leaks? Etc? Can you post a photo of the current system? 

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Hi spiritwolf.  Ignoring class regs in this comment... A while ago I was wondering about "bernoulli bailers" sometimes found on  vintage wooden power boats and RC scale models... The principle seems similar to the Elvstrom bailers but it looks like they might be less prone to leaking. A critical bit might be to find where to position suction. It should be where the hydrodynamic flow is fastest on the hull... (near the widest part of the CB?) obviously this changes on tacks/gybes. Another wonder would be is whether a dinghy can ever reach a velocity where they would be truly effective. (image below: shamelessly pillaged from modelgasboats.com) "Pipe for manual draining in pits" would be analagous to the transom flaps on your dinghy. 
Image result for bernoulli bailer

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6 minutes ago, thengling said:

Hi spiritwolf.  Ignoring class regs in this comment... A while ago I was wondering about "bernoulli bailers" sometimes found on  vintage wooden power boats and RC scale models... The principle seems similar to the Elvstrom bailers but it looks like they might be less prone to leaking. A critical bit might be to find where to position suction. It should be where the hydrodynamic flow is fastest on the hull... (near the widest part of the CB?) obviously this changes on tacks/gybes. Another wonder would be is whether a dinghy can ever reach a velocity where they would be truly effective. (image below: shamelessly pillaged from modelgasboats.com) "Pipe for manual draining in pits" would be analagous to the transom flaps on your dinghy. 
Image result for bernoulli bailer

That seems like a very interesting idea! Would love to see it in use, I believe the current self bailing system works similar to that creating a vacuum under the hull so that water from inside the boat is left to drain out, its more just based on gravity pushing the water through than actual vacuum though. Super Medium Bailer

IE THIS on the hull. Improving effectiveness may just be a matter of replacing them and buying new ones, or replacing the gasket on the autobailer to prevent leaking. The 420's I've sailed all have had these or similar designs and all function effectively, however like you said they can only function if the boat is moving fast enough to create that vacuum so water doesn't just fill the boat!

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I forgot to mention that, for the bernoulli bailer not to leak, the hose would have to pass above the waterline at any heel.

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29 minutes ago, thengling said:

I forgot to mention that, for the bernoulli bailer not to leak, the hose would have to pass above the waterline at any heel.

They then have to provide enough vacuum to lift the bilge water up and over the loop.

A better idea is to build a raised cockpit deck so that water just runs out the back. You can even get rid of most of the transom, then

FB- Doug

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11 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

They then have to provide enough vacuum to lift the bilge water up and over the loop.

A better idea is to build a raised cockpit deck so that water just runs out the back. You can even get rid of most of the transom, then

FB- Doug

About 15 years ago we changed the rules in our dinghy class to do exactly this, however the 420's won't, so you're back to fixing your bailers like Northwesters explained.  They usually get bent, then they leak.  They should only be open when you've got water in the boat and you're going fast enough for them to work, so you'll want a sponge to get out the water from your bad tacks in the light stuff.

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6 minutes ago, Rushman said:

Are transom flaps an option for the 420?

The rule limits their size, I can't remember the exact figure but it's very small.  They drain the boat when you're washing the boat at the slip...

It's a very dry boat, you get a bit of spray upwind when it's breezy, but the one small bailer easily deals with that.  It comes up from a capsize pretty dry.  You get most water in from bad tacks in the light stuff, and that's pretty hard to do.  If there's a class to worry about this problem then it's not the 420.  Fix the one small bailer and move on.

If you want to fix your 420 as a 420 start by getting the foils nice.  Make sure the rig is set up to the sail makers recommendations.  Get the basic controls working and the spinnaker kit set up correctly and go sailing.  If you want a fankenboat I'd have started somewhere else.

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3 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

The rule limits their size, I can't remember the exact figure but it's very small.  They drain the boat when you're washing the boat at the slip...

It's a very dry boat, you get a bit of spray upwind when it's breezy, but the one small bailer easily deals with that.  It comes up from a capsize pretty dry.  You get most water in from bad tacks in the light stuff, and that's pretty hard to do.  If there's a class to worry about this problem then it's not the 420.  Fix the one small bailer and move on.

Thanks, it has been many years since my cherub days, the venturi bailer (as pictured) worked a treat.  When it started making noise it was time to close it.

First lesson... When you capsize,  push the bailer closed ASAP... The edges are sharp!

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To reply to a bunch of you...

The problem I'm facing is that the two little stock drain holes are nowhere near adequate enough to actually drain the cockpit, even when I'm going at speed. I'll grab some pictures of my boat's ass the next time I'm sailing. 

As for class regulations, eh... My boat is getting a masthead furling Reacher/spinnaker on a bowsprit and a square top main at some point so yeah... She isn't going to be class legal at all... :lol:

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1 hour ago, spiritwolf15x said:

To reply to a bunch of you...

The problem I'm facing is that the two little stock drain holes are nowhere near adequate enough to actually drain the cockpit, even when I'm going at speed. I'll grab some pictures of my boat's ass the next time I'm sailing. 

As for class regulations, eh... My boat is getting a masthead furling Reacher/spinnaker on a bowsprit and a square top main at some point so yeah... She isn't going to be class legal at all... :lol:

So put big flaps in her if you want. Like a GP-14, or a 505, or etc.

Put more vacuum bailers.

Get a big one of these:

0004850000717_A?$DT_PDP_Image$

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2 hours ago, spiritwolf15x said:

 

As for class regulations, eh... My boat is getting a masthead furling Reacher/spinnaker on a bowsprit and a square top main at some point so yeah... She isn't going to be class legal at all... :lol:

420s are built slightly better than the juice bottle posted by Fastyacht.  If it's an old boat, pre structural layout rule change it will be worse than that bottle.  The boat will deform and the centreboard will jam.  I know this from painful experience.  They eventually  do it in normal use, load up the rig like you're talking about and they will do it immediately.

Have fun.

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I sailed both the club 420 (a North American thing) and the international 420. Not sure which the OP has. The i420 was like a different boat. So light fast and fun, especially in breeze. I think I went faster in that thing than the 505. At least it felt like it :-)

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

I sailed both the club 420 (a North American thing) and the international 420. Not sure which the OP has. The i420 was like a different boat. So light fast and fun, especially in breeze. I think I went faster in that thing than the 505. At least it felt like it :-)

Mine is definitely an older one, as she's quite heavy. 

The sail mods are going to happen later, right now I just want to get it sailing with out turning into a bathtub. Lol. 

 

Ideally I plan to take it into the Swiftsure short course. 

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The trick is to go faster kick that bastard open and go fast 

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15 hours ago, Stocky said:

The trick is to go faster kick that bastard open and go fast 

Yep, an open transom is the way to go. Don’t bother to sail in light windsB).

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