JimBowie

That's a Sport Boat?

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Don't know where you got the IOR idea from... I don't think that the T830, the Ultimate30 or the FarEast are somehow inspired by IOR nor close to the lines of these days...

ORC divides boats into two classes. Class A features only asymmetricals and Class B a mix of assymetric and symetric boats. For details check the ORC Sportboat Rules. 

Class A featured this year a bunch of different boats also featuring some "newer" designs... See here: https://www.orcsportboats2019.ycmp.eu/entry-list-division-a/

Europe generally does not have a great sportboat scence these days (with the J/70 taking a lot of attention and systematically decreasing established fleets). 

In addition ORC's latest venue choices did not motivate people (at least me with my Farr25 and some other Farr25 owners)  to travel three years in a row in basically the same light wind area (2016 Chioggia, 2017 no champioship, 2018 Porto Piccolo North Adriatic Sea, and 2019 Portoroz East Adriatic Sea). 

My guess is that it takes a venue that guarantees a variety of conditions to really appeal to a wider audience and make people travel again. My last participation was 2016 in Chioggia, where we never saw more than 10 knots of wind and realised that many boats had not been measured properly. 

I don't have any problems with older boats being around. There are so many cool sportboats rotting in sheds these days waiting for owners. Usually these boats come at a rather low price and offer still great fun. ORC seems to work comparing the many different designs. So nothing really wrong here. Just cooler venues are needed..

 

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...by the way, the pictured winner is a Delta 84 - that - I tell you - IS a sport boat despite the "classical look" and the symmetric spinnaker. This boat is moored close by my J/92 in Sistiana (Trieste) - Italy, and is a real planing rocket, that can also go uphill like a train. She won a countless number of Barcolana, the largest (or so) regatta in the world.. 

4ab12d93a74147598f3faaf32dc5636d_Delta84-02.jpg

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On 10/17/2019 at 12:38 AM, blastfurnace said:

sorry mate, no assy, no bowsprit pole... no sportsboat.

I beg to differ. 

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4 hours ago, JimBowie said:

By them standards, this is also a sport boat

 

3130084_0_021020070811_0.jpg

Better stick to your knowledge of knifes and don't mess with Mexicans, they'll be the death of you, Mr. Bowie.

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15 hours ago, marcus brutus said:
19 hours ago, JimBowie said:

By them standards, this is also a sport boat

 

3130084_0_021020070811_0.jpg

Better stick to your knowledge of knifes and don't mess with Mexicans, they'll be the death of you, Mr. Bowie.

 

I think there are a couple of ratios, like SA/Disp etc etc, that this boat falls FAR short of "sportboat" classification, even if very loosely defined

FB- Doug

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On ‎10‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 11:34 PM, pudge said:

I beg to differ. 

ok no problem, whats your definition of a sportsboat?

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On 10/23/2019 at 12:39 AM, blastfurnace said:

ok no problem, whats your definition of a sportsboat?

 

Its all about RATIOS. Nothing else really matters. Sailing displacement to length, sail area to displacement. Blow those up and you're a sporty. If not you're a 4KSB. Who give a fuck about how the kite is attached to the rig?

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Melges did it right when they came up with the 24 back in 1993.  20+ years later,  it still impresses.  I can't think of another 24ft mono keelboat that would worry it on a race course.

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22 hours ago, LSCM24 said:

Melges did it right when they came up with the 24 back in 1993.  20+ years later,  it still impresses.  I can't think of another 24ft mono keelboat that would worry it on a race course.

Amen to what he said.  I'd expand it up to 29'.  Not till you get to the Hendo 30 and above does the mighty Melges need to get concerned.

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On 12/4/2019 at 12:16 AM, Jackdaw said:

 

Its all about RATIOS. Nothing else really matters. Sailing displacement to length, sail area to displacement. Blow those up and you're a sporty. If not you're a 4KSB. Who give a fuck about how the kite is attached to the rig?

That's exactly why I earlier said it's a sportboat. From her ORC certificate the figures I got are SA/D = 30.4, D/L = 72.3 (SA based on 100% rig data). Such numbers are not far away from - say - Melges 24 (respectively at 32, 73). 

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On 12/3/2019 at 6:16 PM, Jackdaw said:

 

. Who give a fuck about how the kite is attached to the rig?

Sport boat owners?

I retire on December 31st. Im looking for a sport boat. Applicants with symmetrical chutes and spinnaker poles need not bother applying!   The 911 is a sports car. The Panamera is a sports sedan and the Cayenne is a sports SUV.   Its not just the power to weight that matters to the purist.

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On 9/2/2019 at 6:21 PM, JimBowie said:

does the Melges remain, 25 years later, the state of the art in sporting yachts?  

Almost 27 years!

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3 hours ago, IPLore said:

Sport boat owners?

I retire on December 31st. Im looking for a sport boat. Applicants with symmetrical chutes and spinnaker poles need not bother applying!   The 911 is a sports car. The Panamera is a sports sedan and the Cayenne is a sports SUV.   Its not just the power to weight that matters to the purist.

The 911 is a sportscar, the Panamera looks like a buick unless you get the shooting brake, and the Cayenne is a Toureg.

 

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On 12/4/2019 at 3:55 PM, LSCM24 said:

Melges did it right when they came up with the 24 back in 1993.  20+ years later,  it still impresses.  I can't think of another 24ft mono keelboat that would worry it on a race course.

I guess that depends on what you mean by 'worry it.' They were certainly faster downwind than my Elliott 770, but under handicap we were pretty tight with them most days.

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On 12/18/2019 at 8:24 AM, IPLore said:

Sport boat owners?

I retire on December 31st. Im looking for a sport boat. Applicants with symmetrical chutes and spinnaker poles need not bother applying!   The 911 is a sports car. The Panamera is a sports sedan and the Cayenne is a sports SUV.   Its not just the power to weight that matters to the purist.

 

I think we're mostly in accord. I'm not saying you have to buy one. For boat's with like ratios, the difference will be personal preference. If a sym boat has like ratios to the asym one you choose, it should be a fun fight.

 

BTW the 911T has a 20% HP/W advantage over the Panamera. That's not a fair fight.

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15 hours ago, Jackdaw said:

 

I think we're mostly in accord. I'm not saying you have to buy one. For boat's with like ratios, the difference will be personal preference. If a sym boat has like ratios to the asym one you choose, it should be a fun fight.

 

BTW the 911T has a 20% HP/W advantage over the Panamera. That's not a fair fight.

My 911 is 24 years old. It undeniably looks and feels like a sports car. 
 

My sport boat will have an assym. It will undeniably look and feel like a sport boat. The short list currently includes Melges 20, Melges 24,  Viper 640 and J70. 

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I think we have had many threads with various definitions. For the purposes of class splits, which I am involved with, we don't use a formula, but list specific models that exist on or near our lake, and limit the size range.

"Sportboats are lightweight monohull keelboats that can plane downwind, and usually have an asymmetrical spinnaker and a lifting keel for trailer-sailing. Our Sportboat fleet at LCYC focuses on the 19 to 24 foot range, and is currently open to the following one-design boats:

J/70, Melges 20, Melges 24, Rocket 22, Seascape 24, Viper 640, VX One."

There are also Henderson 30s around, but they are too fast for our Sportboat class.

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

My 911 is 24 years old. It undeniably looks and feels like a sports car. 
 

My sport boat will have an assym. It will undeniably look and feel like a sport boat. The short list currently includes Melges 20, Melges 24,  Viper 640 and J70. 

I'm with you. That's a great list. And like you I would not have much use for a sportboat with a poled kite, mostly because I want the advantages that sprit/asyms bring.

 

But there has been sport/HP boats with poled kites as an option for quite a while, mostly from Europe. To name a few, the X-Treme 25, First Class 7.5, Figaro 2, SunFast 3600. They do so I suppose for use in match racing, where the a poled kite is more interesting tactically, or way off-shore way off-wind, where cranking back the luff pays off.

 

Here's the X-treme doing the pole dance.

 

 

x-treme_25_photo.jpg

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When you're restricted to racing in narrow channels and waterways, Symmetrical and pole option is the way to go. Nothing wrong with this setup. Lots of versatility here.

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On 12/20/2019 at 11:42 AM, Irrational 14 said:

When you're restricted to racing in narrow channels and waterways, Symmetrical and pole option is the way to go.

Or a longer asym sprit?... Same difference.

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When I first starting looking at getting a sportboat, I spent a lot of time admiring the Rocket 22, especially since it could carry both symmetrical and asymmetrical spinnakers. I'm still hoping the boat from Lake Memphrémagog will come to Lake Champlain for a race!

I have heard that the Double Damned is one of those races where a symmetrical would save you hundreds of gybes.

We would certainly welcome any style sportboat in our fleet, which is why I like a very soft, ambiguous definition, followed by a local list.

We also use displacement in our class splits for several series, since there is a rating overlap with medium-fast cruiser/racers and sportboats, Etchells, J/80, J/27, J/29, J/92. Our Spin B boats excel in flat-water, and Spin C, (think C&C 99, J/105, J/110, Pearson 37), do better in chop. This minimizes complaining.

Weekend Classes:
  • Jib and Main
  • Spinnaker A (PHRF < 081)
  • Spinnaker B (PHRF 081 - 126, Displacement < 7500 lbs)
  • Spinnaker C (PHRF 081 - 126, Displacement ≥ 7500 lbs)
  • Spinnaker D (PHRF > 126)

Cheers

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Quote

sport/HP boats with poled kites as an option for quite a while, mostly from Europe. To name a few, the X-Treme 25, First Class 7.5, Figaro 2, SunFast 3600

While fine sailing boats there is nothing sporty about a Figaro 2 or SunFast 3600.

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11 hours ago, solosailor said:

While fine sailing boats there is nothing sporty about a Figaro 2 or SunFast 3600.

 

That's why in my post I described the list as 'sport/HP'.

 

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By these definitions, my boat is NOT a sportboat.... But for me it is.  Nobody argues that a Moore 24 is not one of the 1st ULDB's, but is it a sport boat? It will surf,,,,,  But for me, it does not really plane. However, for me it is also , a whole 'nuther level from my old Yamaha!!  Define fun.

May you all have a Merry Christmas

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1 hour ago, Moore Play said:

By these definitions, my boat is NOT a sportboat.... But for me it is.  Nobody argues that a Moore 24 is not one of the 1st ULDB's, but is it a sport boat? It will surf,,,,,  But for me, it does not really plane. However, for me it is also , a whole 'nuther level from my old Yamaha!!  Define fun.

May you all have a Merry Christmas

I'd say the Moore is proto-sportboat. And IMHO they definitely can plane.

Merry Christmas from the rainy South

FB- Doug

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On 12/22/2019 at 10:10 PM, nimbus said:

Image result for elliott 7

Tell these blokes they're not sailing a sports boat .(Elliot 7 btw.)

Wow.

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On 12/5/2019 at 7:55 AM, LSCM24 said:

Melges did it right when they came up with the 24 back in 1993.  20+ years later,  it still impresses.  I can't think of another 24ft mono keelboat that would worry it on a race course.

Except for all the Australian and New Zealand Sportsboat designs that whip them upwind and down.

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A sport boat must be able to plane, gotta hit and hold mid to upper teens off the breeze

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On 12/22/2019 at 9:10 PM, nimbus said:

Image result for elliott 7

Tell these blokes they're not sailing a sports boat .(Elliot 7 btw.)

Sportboats plane.  I'd say these boys are planing.  Elliot 7s are most definitely sportboats, above example as exhibit A.

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Not too familiar with the sportboats down under.  Which Elliott 7 are we talking about?

image.png.f85420c34087e975c10627919083f853.png

or this one?

image.png.867b11fe0d73271db05193e19c26bcdd.png

Or both?  Ans what is the difference between them?

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9 hours ago, LSCM24 said:

Not too familiar with the sportboats down under.  Which Elliott 7 are we talking about?

image.png.f85420c34087e975c10627919083f853.png

or this one?

image.png.867b11fe0d73271db05193e19c26bcdd.png

Or both?  Ans what is the difference between them?

Top one.  NZ design.  Oldish, mid-1990s (?).  Hasn't been in production for many years. The 2nd photo is of the also named Elliot 7 (confusing) which came much later but is a training/match racing keel boat.

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2 hours ago, nimbus said:

Top one.  NZ design.  Oldish, mid-1990s (?).  Hasn't been in production for many years. The 2nd photo is of the also named Elliot 7 (confusing) which came much later but is a training/match racing keel boat.

There was a short production run of a boat in New Zealand back in 2011-12(?),  trailerable, sailed by three. They had a traveller series that was well attended and won by Moose (? from the NZ VOR)

Would this have been boat shown in the first photo?

 

Edit... no, it was the Elliott 5.9, 5 of 6 new build boats contested the 2014 Nationals

 

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