lydia

Aust Sailing Australian IRC Championships

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Somebody tell how me how to make sense of paragraph 3.3 as opposed to paragraphs 6.2 and 6.3 respectively.

I thought a boat could only have one valid IRC certificate at a time.

So paragraph 6.3 must be a mistake when talks about "certificates"

Presumably it is to allow a boat to race under a different certificate for race 1 (Hobart)

On one view you could change rigs and still stay inside your IRC measurement envelope

But if the purpose was to allow a change of rig configuration (say change from offshore mainsail) why does it refer to "certificates"

Guess you can alter your measurement trim and certificates during the regatta now if the OA allows it.

 

 

n5ahftkbaozvp9au.pdf

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Hi Lydia

I cant explain, it's very confusing, and as per the other thread why only Div 1? [ of course we know the answer to that!!) It's very blatant and sad for Aus sailing imho. I'm guessing standintheway is at it again

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Grogo,

Btw Has news of the Aust Sailing Queensland IRC Championships reached to 50 nautical miles to Mooloolaba from Waterloo Bay.

Apparently it are in 2 weeks time between the Bribie Cup and St Helena Cup.

NOR only seemed to go public a week ago.

News had not reached the north bank of Brisbane River by last week I am told.

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Hooligan was never going to the Hobart IRC championships. 

As much as it is a fun rumour for people to throw about, they were consulted and informed other owners of their non-attendance, therefore it makes the DIV 1 Syd-Hobart part of it making quite a bit more sense.

As for certificates, you cannot have multiple.  You will be racing inshore under your Hobart certificate, with one less kite that you have dropped that had to be nominated prior to starting the race south.

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That may have been the intention but that is not what is says

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2 hours ago, Grogo said:

Hi Lydia

I cant explain, it's very confusing, and as per the other thread why only Div 1? [ of course we know the answer to that!!) It's very blatant and sad for Aus sailing imho. I'm guessing standintheway is at it again

Its not a conspiracy.

 

Div1 are the only div to include the Hobart race in their series score (why?  That's another question).

 

An IRC rating certificate has multiple ratings on it (eg: no spinnaker number)

If you choose to sail the Hobart using this 'other configuration', you may.

 

3.3 explicity says "the IRC certificate"

 

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The NOR for last years Aus IRC championships in Melbourne (Jan 2019) also had the Hobart race included, was only removed after some owners complained... I’ll see if I can find a copy. 

 

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8 hours ago, lydia said:

Somebody tell how me how to make sense of paragraph 3.3 as opposed to paragraphs 6.2 and 6.3 respectively.

Send your question to matt.allen@sailing.org.au

;-)

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What about the Melbourne to Hobart racers, or the Melbourne to Launceston, or the South Australian boats.  Not all boats do the Syd Hobart.  The NoR states that it is a Cat 5 event, definitely a conflict there.  6 races but 7 if you include the RSHYR.  Since when has the AYC been an offshore regatta.

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1 hour ago, trt131 said:

What about the Melbourne to Hobart racers, or the Melbourne to Launceston, or the South Australian boats.  Not all boats do the Syd Hobart.  The NoR states that it is a Cat 5 event, definitely a conflict there.  6 races but 7 if you include the RSHYR.  Since when has the AYC been an offshore regatta.

 

1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Send your question to matt.allen@sailing.org.au

;-)

 

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On 9/5/2019 at 12:59 PM, lydia said:

Grogo,

Btw Has news of the Aust Sailing Queensland IRC Championships reached to 50 nautical miles to Mooloolaba from Waterloo Bay.

Apparently it are in 2 weeks time between the Bribie Cup and St Helena Cup.

NOR only seemed to go public a week ago.

News had not reached the north bank of Brisbane River by last week I am told.

Seems like an oddly specific time to be holding them

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On 9/5/2019 at 8:21 PM, trt131 said:

What about the Melbourne to Hobart racers, or the Melbourne to Launceston, or the South Australian boats.  Not all boats do the Syd Hobart.  The NoR states that it is a Cat 5 event, definitely a conflict there.  6 races but 7 if you include the RSHYR.  Since when has the AYC been an offshore regatta.

Australian Sailing, fucking the sport, one regatta at a time. Nothing new.

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3 hours ago, Flatbag said:

Australian Sailing, fucking the sport, one regatta at a time. Nothing new.

With Glen “Stand in the way” at the forefront. 

 

AS is all about pleasing the assholes and cheats with money and killing the sport. 

 

Pulpit

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On 9/5/2019 at 2:44 PM, Razorblade_Romance said:

Hooligan was never going to the Hobart IRC championships. 

As much as it is a fun rumour for people to throw about, they were consulted and informed other owners of their non-attendance, therefore it makes the DIV 1 Syd-Hobart part of it making quite a bit more sense.

Whether Hooligan was going or not is irrelevant, the fact is at least 3 TP52s are now not going because of the bullshit requirement that the Sydney Hobart in Race 1 in Div 1.  Let's not sugar coat this as the same mistake was made last year, which they tried to change way to late,  and you'd think they would have learnt.  If they wanted a long race they could have sailed one as part of the regatta to an island in Storm Bay and Hobart has plenty of such options.  The sad reality is that it's a form of pot hunting and not in the interests of getting the maximum number of boats participating.  But then again, maybe that was the objective.

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Long race with double points could be Hobart to south east cape to south west cape to the wave bouy at cape Sorell and return

about 300 miles

sort the kids out and you would have a proper series

personally I will go and anchor up in Louisa bay and charge huge salvage fees. He he he

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On 9/5/2019 at 12:59 PM, lydia said:

Grogo,

Btw Has news of the Aust Sailing Queensland IRC Championships reached to 50 nautical miles to Mooloolaba from Waterloo Bay.

Apparently it are in 2 weeks time between the Bribie Cup and St Helena Cup.

NOR only seemed to go public a week ago.

News had not reached the north bank of Brisbane River by last week I am told.

Groggo

i see the sport boat assn qld state titles are 21 September so a week before the aust sailing qld yachting champs which includes sport boats

strange days

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13 hours ago, lydia said:

Long race with double points could be Hobart to south east cape to south west cape to the wave bouy at cape Sorell and return

about 300 miles

sort the kids out and you would have a proper series

personally I will go and anchor up in Louisa bay and charge huge salvage fees. He he he

Bring back the Mewstone!

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While I think this is right royal stuff up and incredibly exclusionary I can't see Matt Allen stooping to this (or indeed anything so obvious). He plays hard but fair.

There must be someone else behind this.  Why would anyone seek to repeat what (almost) occurred last year and was only avoided by outrage being expressed?

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55 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

Bring back the Mewstone!

No doubt about the winner having the respect of their peers!

That would work, Start to Pedra (to starboard) to Mewstone (to starboard) to finish.

Maybe make it one traverse of Storm bay and one of the Channel but up to you which way so that puts it on a few navigators.

Might need a few new bowman after that one if fresh.

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Ha.. just noticed another potential clusterfuck -- extra kites as allowed under SHYR must not be carried if you're sailing in the AYC. 

6.6 Before the first race of the regatta, all boats in IRC Classes shall submit to the regatta office a declaration of all the sails carried on board for the duration of the regatta (IRC Rule 21.1.5(d)). AYC IRC Division 1 boats shall remove the extra spinnaker carried under RSHYR Notice of Race 7.1(b) and spare mainsail under RSHYR Notice of Race 7.2 as applicable

 

Or is the SHYR not part of 'the regatta' 

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On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 12:59 PM, lydia said:

Grogo,

Btw Has news of the Aust Sailing Queensland IRC Championships reached to 50 nautical miles to Mooloolaba from Waterloo Bay.

Apparently it are in 2 weeks time between the Bribie Cup and St Helena Cup.

NOR only seemed to go public a week ago.

News had not reached the north bank of Brisbane River by last week I am told.

Hi Lydia

I'm not surprised, the original idea was it was to be shared by SYC, RQ and Sunshine Coast YC, so once every 3 years. After SCYC put in the application to AS rep Leslie last year for this year, SCYC was blindsided when it went to SYC. So now It's SYC RQ SCYC RQ[again] SYC RQ[again] SCYC and so on, RQ every other year, that is unless the elite change it again???

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10 hours ago, DtM said:

While I think this is right royal stuff up and incredibly exclusionary I can't see Matt Allen stooping to this (or indeed anything so obvious). He plays hard but fair.

There must be someone else behind this.  Why would anyone seek to repeat what (almost) occurred last year and was only avoided by outrage being expressed?

It maybe just a AS employee trying to save his job. 

 

Calling “Stand in the Way” 

 

AS has a few employees that are so crooked that that need to go as they are just ass kisses and have no balls to do the right thing. 

 

I’ve had dealing with AS before and “Stand in the Way” is one of the biggest lier, cheats and asshole I’ve ever met and I’ve worked in the marine industry for over 30 years. 

 

If you you want to kill Sailing in Australia, let AS run a advent. 

 

Pulpit

David Pullin

P.s, I’m not scared to hide who I am. I heat lies and cheats and Glen needs to man up and stop being the low life he is.

 

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GornF, I'm back! But I'm taking your advice, albeit in part, and admitting nothing.

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15 hours ago, pulpit said:

It maybe just a AS employee trying to save his job. 

Calling “Stand in the Way” 

AS has a few employees that are so crooked that that need to go as they are just ass kisses and have no balls to do the right thing. 

I’ve had dealing with AS before and “Stand in the Way” is one of the biggest lier, cheats and asshole I’ve ever met and I’ve worked in the marine industry for over 30 years. 

If you you want to kill Sailing in Australia, let AS run a advent. 

Pulpit

David Pullin

P.s, I’m not scared to hide who I am. I heat lies and cheats and Glen needs to man up and stop being the low life he is.

Needs more work.

SailingAnarchy1.png

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HI Glen,

Since you are now here, can you shed light on the inclusion of the RS2H in the IRC Championship (Div 1).

Genuine question.

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29 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

I'm ready with popcorn - but that spellcheck and grammar salvo is pretty lame.

Agreed. I missed the repeated 'that' and spell check on 'need'. My apologies Duncan.

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4 minutes ago, grs said:

Agreed. I missed the repeated 'that' and spell check on 'need'. My apologies Duncan.

I think many here would hope that you would engage with the thread topic a little more informatively than so far.  I don't have a dog in this hunt, but to me this seems like a fucking stupid idea at best, blatant manipulation at worst.  Would you deign to explain how AS has justified this?

Thanks.

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6 hours ago, grs said:

Needs more work.

SailingAnarchy1.png

Glen, 

First  of all it’s great to see you back and thank you for the spelling  check and fixing up my grammar. I hate it when the IPad changes how I wrote  things, so thank you for helping out. 

 

So what’s the story with the Australian National Keel Boat Championships and div 1 ?

 

Our sport needs to have more people to participate and not to exclude people because I few are upset that they can’t  buy their way to a Australian championship. 

 

There is more Honor in winning in a fleet of ten or more boats than a fleet of 1. 

 

So what are you going to do to make this a fair playing field or are you and AS just going to give in again ?

 

pulpit

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DtM, Recidivist and Pulpit, sure I’ll give it a crack. Before I do, I’ll preface this by letting all know that my phone number is publicly available on the AS website and anyone is welcome to call me. You’ll find it at https://www.sailing.org.au/about/ourstaff/. Also that whilst I'll have said crack at providing an explanation or response to some of the questions or comments raised above, I'll not worry about protracted online debate.

First let’s keep in mind the inclusion of the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race only applies to boats with an IRC TCC of 1.2 upwards, and I’ll come back to this.

On the reasoning behind the inclusion of the Hobart for Div 1, my understanding is that there are several factors behind it and why only that division.

First thing is that the Championship has not had good entries for many years, so we canvassed opinions from boat owners and sought to try something different. Refer to Einstein’s line about doing the same thing over again.

There is also a nod to the Hobart in its 75th year. This is an important event and a lot of boats have already entered, 130 by today’s count. Boats with a TCC of 1.2 upwards that may have ambitions to win the Championship now have opportunity to use the Hobart as part of their score. Whether this has any influence on participation in either event remains to be seen.

Still on the Hobart, this is one of the world’s most physically and intellectually taxing offshore races. This shifts the type form Div 1 winners of the Championship away from boats suited to W/L day racing. A small minority of Australian Div 1 boats are suited to that format of racing. This last point has been subject to a lot of complaint from many people in recent years and the policy change deliberately responds to this; we’ve listened. From a staff point of view, it was me who got the phone calls or bailed up at a club or event about it all so I’m acutely aware of the veracity of this line of complaint. I’ve indirectly heard a complaint from a couple of smaller boats that are doing the Hobart who wish to take advantage of it for these same reasons, and they're annoyed they cannot. Indeed, the IRC yearbook always asked race committees to mix it up.

The reason it is only Div 1 is, again to my understanding, that the majority of these boats will usually do the Hobart. Whilst many boats under the TCC of 1.2 will do the Hobart it’s not as likely to get a majority as we will with Div 1 with many Div 2 or 3 boats committing to other great races like the Launceston to Hobart, the Melbourne to Devonport or Melbourne to Hobart Westcoaster, or simply stay at home and watch it all on TV.

So, the decision simply doesn’t affect the significant majority of Australian IRC rated boats. It is only the pointy end of the fleet which is much smaller in number, and the majority of whom are built for this and quite possibly doing the Hobart anyway. A quick look at https://ircrating.org/irc-racing/online-tcc-listings/ tells me that in Australia about 50 boats are rated TCC of 1.2 or over, and about 270 under that TCC. Of the Div 1 boats 17 have already entered the Hobart and its only mid-September.

With regards to different certificates, this was in response to Div 1 boats’ feedback that what they carry on board for the Hobart will be very specific to that race and its forecast. We found if they cannot change sails and ‘stuff’ they probably won’t enter the Championship; they won’t have the gear to sail in day races. The RORC Rating Office will push out an IRC Certificate with an ‘effective from’ date and there is only ever one rating in play at any point in time. This is pretty normal practice we’ve been doing for years on request.

Its a great event run at a great club. Lets talk sailing up.

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All pigs are created equal, some ore equal than others!

And the last part is really offensive to long term IRC owners who have been fucked around for years at bullshit costs waiting for certicates.

One rule for some a different rule for others hey.

So if I am not entering Division 1 can I do the two certificate dodge.

Can’t see that I can.

Glen, if you want people to re engage it has to be same rules for everyone and no deals for special groups.

This bullshit is why after 20 years of holding rating certificates I sold the boat and gave it away.

I could get the new boat rated and I could go to Hobart and do the Aust Champs.

But how about no!

 

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4 hours ago, grs said:

 

I find it strange that the championships and AS in general do not support the most predominant measurement rating system, AMS, in use in Vic, SA and Tas. 

 

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Hoppy, thAt is because SA does not own that rule.

Hence the promotion at last of ORCi club to take on AMS in the market

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27 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I find it strange that the championships and AS in general do not support the most predominant measurement rating system, AMS, in use in Vic, SA and Tas. 

 

Hoppy,

First of all, thank you for supporting Glen in his spelling check and giving him points. What a winner he is........

 

You are right, how sad it is that AS doesn’t support our local rating system that promotes owner and crew to sail a event and get crews to sail and have fun. 

 

I personally don’t care if I win or lose as long as the whole feet are sailing under the same rules and not some boats or owners are given a helping hand by AS. 

 

I’ve seen AS stop kids Sailing because parents of other kids are bigger assholes and it hurts their kids. I’ve seen AS side with parents that are cheats and not follow the international class rules set out by the class just to have their kids win. 

 

What can I say, “Stand in the way” will look you in the eye and support you and then shaft you 5 mins later. 

 

Hoppy, it’s about having fun on the water and enjoying our sport and not about winning. For our sport to grow we need to get “bums in boats” the more people that sail the better our chances that we will do better at the Olympic’s. 

 

For sailing to grow anywhere, it has to start at the grassroots and the fleets will grow. 

 

Pulpit 

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2 hours ago, grs said:

DtM, Recidivist and Pulpit, sure I’ll give it a crack. Before I do, I’ll preface this by letting all know that my phone number is publicly available on the AS website and anyone is welcome to call me. You’ll find it at https://www.sailing.org.au/about/ourstaff/. Also that whilst I'll have said crack at providing an explanation or response to some of the questions or comments raised above, I'll not worry about protracted online debate.

First let’s keep in mind the inclusion of the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race only applies to boats with an IRC TCC of 1.2 upwards, and I’ll come back to this.

On the reasoning behind the inclusion of the Hobart for Div 1, my understanding is that there are several factors behind it and why only that division.

First thing is that the Championship has not had good entries for many years, so we canvassed opinions from boat owners and sought to try something different. Refer to Einstein’s line about doing the same thing over again.

There is also a nod to the Hobart in its 75th year. This is an important event and a lot of boats have already entered, 130 by today’s count. Boats with a TCC of 1.2 upwards that may have ambitions to win the Championship now have opportunity to use the Hobart as part of their score. Whether this has any influence on participation in either event remains to be seen.

Still on the Hobart, this is one of the world’s most physically and intellectually taxing offshore races. This shifts the type form Div 1 winners of the Championship away from boats suited to W/L day racing. A small minority of Australian Div 1 boats are suited to that format of racing. This last point has been subject to a lot of complaint from many people in recent years and the policy change deliberately responds to this; we’ve listened. From a staff point of view, it was me who got the phone calls or bailed up at a club or event about it all so I’m acutely aware of the veracity of this line of complaint. I’ve indirectly heard a complaint from a couple of smaller boats that are doing the Hobart who wish to take advantage of it for these same reasons, and they're annoyed they cannot. Indeed, the IRC yearbook always asked race committees to mix it up.

The reason it is only Div 1 is, again to my understanding, that the majority of these boats will usually do the Hobart. Whilst many boats under the TCC of 1.2 will do the Hobart it’s not as likely to get a majority as we will with Div 1 with many Div 2 or 3 boats committing to other great races like the Launceston to Hobart, the Melbourne to Devonport or Melbourne to Hobart Westcoaster, or simply stay at home and watch it all on TV.

So, the decision simply doesn’t affect the significant majority of Australian IRC rated boats. It is only the pointy end of the fleet which is much smaller in number, and the majority of whom are built for this and quite possibly doing the Hobart anyway. A quick look at https://ircrating.org/irc-racing/online-tcc-listings/ tells me that in Australia about 50 boats are rated TCC of 1.2 or over, and about 270 under that TCC. Of the Div 1 boats 17 have already entered the Hobart and its only mid-September.

With regards to different certificates, this was in response to Div 1 boats’ feedback that what they carry on board for the Hobart will be very specific to that race and its forecast. We found if they cannot change sails and ‘stuff’ they probably won’t enter the Championship; they won’t have the gear to sail in day races. The RORC Rating Office will push out an IRC Certificate with an ‘effective from’ date and there is only ever one rating in play at any point in time. This is pretty normal practice we’ve been doing for years on request.

Its a great event run at a great club. Lets talk sailing up.

Glen, 

I’m sorry that  I missed your call tonight. It was about 30 mins after I posted a reply here. I bounced it and you didn’t even leave a message. 

 

The one thing I’ve learnt about you is if it’s not in writing, it’s bullshit 

 

You say one thing and then do a about face if it suits you better. I’m told if I had money and I drink red wine with you it’s a shore thing. 

 

Glen, over the years you have showed your true colours to many on here and in our sport. 

 

 Mate, for our sport to grow it’s time to look after the little guy whatever class they sail and our numbers will grow. 

 

Pulpit 

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29 minutes ago, pulpit said:

Hoppy, it’s about having fun on the water and enjoying our sport and not about winning.

Actually it is about winning. We take it very serious when there's a bottle of red up for grabs for the best start and wine glasses for a top 3 placing in PHS, AMS & IRC. We won two bottles of red in the past 3 weeks, but unfortunately we have to drink them from the bottle.

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On 9/5/2019 at 11:51 AM, lydia said:

Somebody tell how me how to make sense of paragraph 3.3 as opposed to paragraphs 6.2 and 6.3 respectively.

I thought a boat could only have one valid IRC certificate at a time.

So paragraph 6.3 must be a mistake when talks about "certificates"

Presumably it is to allow a boat to race under a different certificate for race 1 (Hobart)

On one view you could change rigs and still stay inside your IRC measurement envelope

But if the purpose was to allow a change of rig configuration (say change from offshore mainsail) why does it refer to "certificates"

Guess you can alter your measurement trim and certificates during the regatta now if the OA allows it.

 

 

n5ahftkbaozvp9au.pdf

Well, I got this wrong, you can have two certificates and use both in the one regatta if you are in Div 1 but not otherwise.

And sorry Dunc, your very reasonable position seems wrong as well.

So all this bullshit for the benefit of maybe 4 boats that will race under two certificates in the one regatta when everyone else cannot.

This is not even allowing boat a to race with different sails but inside the same certificate after race 1 (Hobart) which many of us would understand.

All respect Glen but how you expect your organization to be anything else but a laughing stock with the rest of us.

And by us I mean owners of IRC boats the people who sail with on them.

Like I said all pigs are equal some more equal them others!

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12 hours ago, grs said:

 

The reason it is only Div 1 is, again to my understanding, that the majority of these boats will usually do the Hobart. Whilst many boats under the TCC of 1.2 will do the Hobart it’s not as likely to get a majority as we will with Div 1 with many Div 2 or 3 boats committing to other great races like the Launceston to Hobart, the Melbourne to Devonport or Melbourne to Hobart Westcoaster, or simply stay at home and watch it all on TV.

 

So if AS is all about inclusiveness, why don't you also include the boats the boats competing in the other great races? (my spell check works!).

The artificial break point of 1.2 is also garbage. It assumes smaller boats don't take the same approach for long offshore races. I assure you they do.

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12 hours ago, grs said:

... the decision simply doesn’t affect the significant majority of Australian IRC rated boats. It is only the pointy end of the fleet ...

^^^ This is what I think is the problem.

I very much doubt that AS would make such a decision if it would be to the detriment of the "pointy end of the fleet", so it's likely it is intended to be beneficial to those boats.  Why would AS be setting out to benefit a small number of boats, while not providing a similar benefit for the bulk of the fleet?  Good for one, good for all - no?

Edited by Recidivist
42 South just made the same point.

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So what was wrong with Southern Cross Cup.

But do this

Open to all IRC boat rating 0.875 and above.

No divisions

One rating certificate

5 races with the middle distance race (1.5 points) and long race (2.0 points)

1 short passage race and 2 windward leewards.

Top point scoring boat is the Australian Champion.

Simple

Or is that too fair!!!!!!!!!

Of course it is.

 

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Imagine if we had so many boats wanting to go we had to have Southern Cup Trials to select a state team and some states had so many good boats they had more than one team.

That would be amazing!

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Lydia, I remember those heady days.

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1 hour ago, lydia said:

So what was wrong with Southern Cross Cup.

But do this

Open to all IRC boat rating 0.875 and above.

No divisions

One rating certificate

5 races with the middle distance race (1.5 points) and long race (2.0 points)

1 short passage race and 2 windward leewards.

Top point scoring boat is the Australian Champion.

Simple

Or is that too fair!!!!!!!!!

Of course it is.

 

Whatever happened to the Southern Cross Cup? Surely it couldn't have died due to a lack of entrants? Doesn't matter if there are no international teams, state teams should be enough to keep it interesting.

One thing that bugs me about the Aus Championships is that there is not one champion yacht. What's the point of using a rating system when 1 in 4 or 5  entrants  get to become champions. It's getting like schools where everyone's a winner.

Why limit it to 0.875 and above? Any boat that can meet the safety requirements of the "long race" should be allowed.

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1 hour ago, lydia said:

Imagine if we had so many boats wanting to go we had to have Southern Cup Trials to select a state team and some states had so many good boats they had more than one team.

That would be amazing!

Shhhhhh

I'll support the underdogs, Vic B...

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Sorry, I have this all wrong, it is all about being able to sail a Tp52 to Hobart two handed on your two handed certificate then change back for the rest of the regatta.

Yeah bullshit

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16 hours ago, grs said:

With regards to different certificates, this was in response to Div 1 boats’ feedback that what they carry on board for the Hobart will be very specific to that race and its forecast. We found if they cannot change sails and ‘stuff’ they probably won’t enter the Championship; they won’t have the gear to sail in day races. The RORC Rating Office will push out an IRC Certificate with an ‘effective from’ date and there is only ever one rating in play at any point in time. This is pretty normal practice we’ve been doing for years on request.

I'm sorry - as lydia points out - this is bullshit.

There's nothing currently stopping a single-certificate boat from changing its sail wardrobe.. as long as they all measure under that certificate.  Use your offshore main,heavy kites and extra halyards for Hobart, use an inshore main and those new light kites for the IRC champs. Done.

What you've now enabled is a small-SA / heavy trim setup for hobart (with its accompanying rating decrease), and a large-SA / light trim setup for the W/L's.

A series is exactly that - pick your setup for the entire series,. No optimising for individual events.

 

I can't see how what this NOR has done can possibly aim to reduce the costs of the sport, or encourage participants,.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

I'm sorry - as lydia points out - this is bullshit.

There's nothing currently stopping a single-certificate boat from changing its sail wardrobe.. as long as they all measure under that certificate.  Use your offshore main,heavy kites and extra halyards for Hobart, use an inshore main and those new light kites for the IRC champs. Done.

What you've now enabled is a small-SA / heavy trim setup for hobart (with its accompanying rating decrease), and a large-SA / light trim setup for the W/L's.

A series is exactly that - pick your setup for the entire series,. No optimising for individual events.

 

I can't see how what this NOR has done can possibly aim to reduce the costs of the sport, or encourage participants,.

 

 

Good points Duncan.  My observation is that a simple answer is to NOT include the SH in the championships!  Fuck, that was easy:angry:

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If nothing else, this is just the final out in the open proof that Yachting Australia (or whatever they call themselves this week) pander to the big end of the fleet and couldn't give a fuck about anything smaller than a TP52.

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Gotta to love SA

just in this little thread we have :

one owner with a new boat not rated and suspect not entering

one owner with a rated boat not entering 

one owner with no rating but like the earlier two a boat is tasnania but not entering

one owner with a rated boat who will be in town not entering

one owners representative calling bullshit

so how are those fleet numbers going 

That right they are div 2 boats

 

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7 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

If nothing else, this is just the final out in the open proof that Yachting Australia (or whatever they call themselves this week) pander to the big end of the fleet and couldn't give a fuck about anything smaller than a TP52.

Now that's a bit unfair,  all of the olympic boats are smaller than 52'!

Nice of them to even notice that there are other boats,  OK they seem blind to anything that uses less than 3 new mains a season,  but someone need to keep all of those sailmakers in work.

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Don't get me started on what they piss away every 4 years chasing little metal discs. I'm currently working with some who used to work on the Olympic team, fucking staggering how much of our money is wasted there.

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On 9/12/2019 at 7:47 PM, grs said:

DtM, Recidivist and Pulpit, sure I’ll give it a crack. Before I do, I’ll preface this by letting all know that my phone number is publicly available on the AS website and anyone is welcome to call me. You’ll find it at https://www.sailing.org.au/about/ourstaff/. Also that whilst I'll have said crack at providing an explanation or response to some of the questions or comments raised above, I'll not worry about protracted online debate.

First let’s keep in mind the inclusion of the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race only applies to boats with an IRC TCC of 1.2 upwards, and I’ll come back to this.

On the reasoning behind the inclusion of the Hobart for Div 1, my understanding is that there are several factors behind it and why only that division.

First thing is that the Championship has not had good entries for many years, so we canvassed opinions from boat owners and sought to try something different. Refer to Einstein’s line about doing the same thing over again.

There is also a nod to the Hobart in its 75th year. This is an important event and a lot of boats have already entered, 130 by today’s count. Boats with a TCC of 1.2 upwards that may have ambitions to win the Championship now have opportunity to use the Hobart as part of their score. Whether this has any influence on participation in either event remains to be seen.

Still on the Hobart, this is one of the world’s most physically and intellectually taxing offshore races. This shifts the type form Div 1 winners of the Championship away from boats suited to W/L day racing. A small minority of Australian Div 1 boats are suited to that format of racing. This last point has been subject to a lot of complaint from many people in recent years and the policy change deliberately responds to this; we’ve listened. From a staff point of view, it was me who got the phone calls or bailed up at a club or event about it all so I’m acutely aware of the veracity of this line of complaint. I’ve indirectly heard a complaint from a couple of smaller boats that are doing the Hobart who wish to take advantage of it for these same reasons, and they're annoyed they cannot. Indeed, the IRC yearbook always asked race committees to mix it up.

The reason it is only Div 1 is, again to my understanding, that the majority of these boats will usually do the Hobart. Whilst many boats under the TCC of 1.2 will do the Hobart it’s not as likely to get a majority as we will with Div 1 with many Div 2 or 3 boats committing to other great races like the Launceston to Hobart, the Melbourne to Devonport or Melbourne to Hobart Westcoaster, or simply stay at home and watch it all on TV.

So, the decision simply doesn’t affect the significant majority of Australian IRC rated boats. It is only the pointy end of the fleet which is much smaller in number, and the majority of whom are built for this and quite possibly doing the Hobart anyway. A quick look at https://ircrating.org/irc-racing/online-tcc-listings/ tells me that in Australia about 50 boats are rated TCC of 1.2 or over, and about 270 under that TCC. Of the Div 1 boats 17 have already entered the Hobart and its only mid-September.

With regards to different certificates, this was in response to Div 1 boats’ feedback that what they carry on board for the Hobart will be very specific to that race and its forecast. We found if they cannot change sails and ‘stuff’ they probably won’t enter the Championship; they won’t have the gear to sail in day races. The RORC Rating Office will push out an IRC Certificate with an ‘effective from’ date and there is only ever one rating in play at any point in time. This is pretty normal practice we’ve been doing for years on request.

Its a great event run at a great club. Lets talk sailing up.

Glen,

First, thanks for your response.  Second, I have no dog in this fight just an interested former participant.

I have highlighted a couple of bits of your response. I accept you have had the complaints. You say a lot of complaint, but as you later note, it is only the pointy end of the fleet which you estimate is 50 (only 17 of which are entered for Hobart).  Of that 17, there is little to no chance that any of the maxis or 60 footers will stay for the Championship so let's say that takes out 10 or so of your 17.  That leaves 7 "complainers".  I know some of the players and I can't see any of them being that focused on a little bit of silverware.

From the outside that seems like caving in to a very small special interest group. 

If you had made it the same for all Divisions then I could understand the argument (even if I still think it would be wrong because among other things it discriminates against boats from your home State, Tasmania which have no interest in doing Hobart). The "little" boats put in a lot to do Hobart (often without professional help), why not the same consideration for them?

Lastly, why the selective focus on Sydney to Hobart. Why not choose Melbourne to Hobart and work on getting the numbers up in that race.

Genuine comments and questions. I am not one of your detractors.

I had already looked up your number on the YA website, maybe I will ring it but I see nothing wrong with an open discussion even where it involves some who clearly have identified that they don't like you.

daniel

 

 

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I suspect that GRS will not along here for a while, he has a much greater shit fight to deal with from what I hear.

By the time everyone thinks through the consequences which I figure people are still working out,  , if this one goes pear shaped and Australian Sailing will no longer control the sport, a few people will be unemployed and few more banned for life depending how it goes.

Quite possibly the biggest shit fight in the history of Australian Sailing by the time it all plays out over the next year or so even bigger than Moscow.

As they say, a week is a long time in sport.

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Facts are stretchy but you always appoint a jury and fly in three of your best heavyweight jurors to hear a protest two weeks before the first race of a low level regatta with 8 entries.

I would say unprecedented!

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This thread needs music.

 

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I am hearing that the lawyers have been  engaged for sometime on this one and way before any protests were lodged.

So gold just gold

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I was hearing about all this bullshit last night, what a shit show, but what we've come to expect sadly.

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10 hours ago, lydia said:

Facts are stretchy but you always appoint a jury and fly in three of your best heavyweight jurors to hear a protest two weeks before the first race of a low level regatta with 8 entries.

I would say unprecedented!

Enough to cause the demise of AS ?  That would be huge.

Our money wasted on lawyers?

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1 hour ago, DtM said:

Enough to cause the demise of AS ?  That would be huge.

Our money wasted on lawyers?

Which regatta are we talking about

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1 hour ago, duncan (the other one) said:

Lydia's in Tassie.. pretty easy to find an 8-entrant regatta of reasonable importance happening in 2 weeks.

Ignore this -- I've been set straight.

Its the club with the usual clusterfucks.

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4 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

Ignore this -- I've been set straight.

Its the club with the usual clusterfucks.

That doesn't narrow it down a lot Dunc, especially given lydia's involvement with a few east coast clubs.

I trawled through the results of several recent "low level regattas" looking for one that had 8 entries and a protest committee comprising several well-known judges.  I found one of possible interest, but the information available on the net hardly gives rise to lydia's apocalyptic scenario.  Oh well, I'll wait to see what comes first - GRS returning with with factual, compelling information, or the apocalypse.  

Beer and popcorn at the ready ...

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& if the world (SA) doesn’t end in two months?  

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On the 2nd of January the DSS runs the King of the Derwent (KOD) race. The AYC (IRC) starts on the 3rd of January if the S2H is included why not include the KOD? Surely the KOD has is more relevant to the fleet then S2H?

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2 hours ago, snoopy said:

On the 2nd of January the DSS runs the King of the Derwent (KOD) race. The AYC (IRC) starts on the 3rd of January if the S2H is included why not include the KOD? Surely the KOD has is more relevant to the fleet then S2H?

Because they don't want low class riffraff on the water at the same time? 

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Especially not low class Tasmanian riff raff.

Sad truth is it has been a long tie since much of the Hobart fleet did KoD.

Last time I did KoD there were maybe 4 Hobart boats doing it.

 

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2 hours ago, lydia said:

Especially not low class Tasmanian riff raff.

Sad truth is it has been a long tie since much of the Hobart fleet did KoD.

Last time I did KoD there were maybe 4 Hobart boats doing it.

 

By "Hobart boats" I presume that you are arrogantly referring to boats which have "done a Hobart", ie competed in the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race (don't mention those other "to Hobart" ocean races) as opposed to boats that are actually from Hobart?

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Sorry Pirate, quite right.

But mate pictures on sailworld,  well done 

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22 hours ago, Recidivist said:

I trawled through the results of several recent "low level regattas" looking for one that had 8 entries and a protest committee comprising several well-known judges. 

Of course there is the possibility that the regatta hasn't happened yet.  In that vein I found that RQ is running a state keelboat championship in a couple of weeks, and has an appointed jury consisting of some luminaries - see the letter at https://www.rqys.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Approval-of-National-Jury-QLD-Yachting-Championship.pdf

Another thing to note is that the signatory of the letter couldn't even get the name of the club right - a sterling effort from our peak national body:wacko:

Hmmm.

 

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Governance question 

Who is in charge of IRC at Australian Sailing? 

Who makes decisions about who, where and when an IRC event will be held?

Is there a  process to apply to hold the IRC event (could not find any doco on the AS website?)?  

 How does the Glenn have any say of what happens in QLD when he works in TAS as Manager and in charge of Safety?  

I thought Nicolas Degorce was the man on the ground for ratings? on the Yachting champs page there is Lesley Fasala's details?

how does it work? 

asking for a friend. 

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Lesley is AS events manager and would be the one to talk to about the IRC state/national championships. 

Give her a call or email and I’m sure she would be more than happy to have a chat!

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3 hours ago, Recidivist said:

Of course there is the possibility that the regatta hasn't happened yet.  In that vein I found that RQ is running a state keelboat championship in a couple of weeks, and has an appointed jury consisting of some luminaries - see the letter at https://www.rqys.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Approval-of-National-Jury-QLD-Yachting-Championship.pdf

Another thing to note is that the signatory of the letter couldn't even get the name of the club right - a sterling effort from our peak national body:wacko:

Hmmm.

 

Isn’t it amazing that someone who Big noted them selves picking on my spelling and grammar last week can stuff up the name of one of the biggest yacht  clubs in Queensland. 

 

Way to go  Glen,  great way to insult Royal Queensland Yacht Squadron, I hope we see a written apology on the AS and RQYS websites. 

 

I will not hold hold my breath 

 

pulpit

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Lancaster Farm Fresh Cooperative?

Lynwood Ferndale Football Club?

Little Flock Fellowship Church?

 

 

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Sounds like the lawyers will be going overtime this week now!

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LOTA FISHING & FIGHTING CLUB that’s an old one 

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3 hours ago, lydia said:

Sounds like the lawyers will be going overtime this week now!

Why ? I must be missing something.

So there is a small regatta going on that AS or YA or whatever have decided to designate in a certain way and then appoint a jury. There might be cheap holidays involved for the jury (who knows), the jury might be someone's mates/cronies but why lawyers? Puzzling.

If it is the AS Qld IRC Sailing Championships with 8 entries,  who even cares?

Oh to have Winner, YAQIRCSC Champion on your tombstone !!!

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