Meat Wad

Here is the future, like it or not

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1 minute ago, Meat Wad said:

Fast passages and lots of parting

 

2 laps !

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Uffa Fox wrote an essay called something like, "The 25 Knot Yacht." A long time ago. And it turned out he was more than right!

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How is that "the future"? Is there going to be no one sailing 25 footers around LIS in light winds in the future?  Do you plan to shoot anyone who dares to enjoy sailing a Folkboat in SF in 2022?  Are there going to be packs of boat butchers burning all the S&S classics, the J/35s and the Melges 32s to ensure that they won't be sailing in 2025?

Are people suddenly all going to give up having comfy bunks, a decent stove, and headroom?  Are all sailors going to suddenly become super rich, able to afford new foiling boats and the people to sail them and look after them?

If this is "the future" then we'll have to make sure that people who can't afford foilers are thrown out of the sport. How are we going to do that?  

If being able to go that fast is so important to everyone, why didn't they sail ORMA 60s a decade or two ago?  Why don't all the dinghy sailors go and sail kitefoilers?

Why are foilers going to take over in the future when canters didn't take over, multis didn't take over, water ballasted boats didn't take over, and sportsboats didn't take over in the past?

Have you bought and sailed a foiler? If you haven't done it, why will everyone else do it?

The speed snobbery going around doesn't seem to be any better than the legendary snobbery of the cliche'd rich guy with the blue blazer, striped trousers and NYYC burgee hanging off his Swan. It's just a different way of promoting an elitist, inaccessible, unfriendly view of a sport that can be about everyone from some single parent's kid in an old Opti, to a rich old guy in a Dragon or a 20 something woman on a Laser or J/24.

How much does it help the sport if people who can't sail a big foiler, because of where they live, how much money they have, or just because they dare to have their own tastes, are told "fuck off, you have no future in sailing". Because that, quite simply, is what you are effectively saying to the vast majority of sailors and potential sailors. When "fuck off peasant or noob, you have no future in sailing" is the motto, it's no wonder the sport is not going well.

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8 hours ago, d'ranger said:

Fast is fun, where do I sign up?

I've never really understood why anyone listened to that motto of Bill Lee, because his boats were slower than multis of the time. If faster was really more fun, then he was a fool to build Merlin. If he wasn't a fool - and I don't think he was - then his motto is wrong, or at least fast is no more fun than slow or medium.

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The other side of it is "too fast is not fun"

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Won’t be part of my future.

Fast is indeed fun; but there is no need to sail an expensive pie-shaped monstrosity when there are way better-looking fast boats available for much, much less money. E.g., the humble classic Flying Fifteen (speaking of Uffa Fox).

 

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10 hours ago, Curious said:

How is that "the future"? Is there going to be no one sailing 25 footers around LIS in light winds in the future?  Do you plan to shoot anyone who dares to enjoy sailing a Folkboat in SF in 2022?  Are there going to be packs of boat butchers burning all the S&S classics, the J/35s and the Melges 32s to ensure that they won't be sailing in 2025?

Are people suddenly all going to give up having comfy bunks, a decent stove, and headroom?  Are all sailors going to suddenly become super rich, able to afford new foiling boats and the people to sail them and look after them?

I never said it was the absolute future. Of course Debbie Downer, we will still be sailing all types of boats. But we will be watching this shit on TV instead of the 4 knt shit box.

Damn, ya just can't get excited around here without some shitting on you.

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2 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Here is the future of driving to the store for some beer, like it or not:

USC60MLC041A021001.jpg

 

Foiling will come to all aspects of sailing like it or not. Super Cars will not come to every community, even though we would welcome it.

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1 minute ago, Meat Wad said:

Foiling will come to all aspects of sailing like it or not. Super Cars will not come to every community, even though we would welcome it.

Foiling has been part of sailing all along. It's called a rudder. <ducking>

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2 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

I never said it was the absolute future. Of course Debbie Downer, we will still be sailing all types of boats. But we will be watching this shit on TV instead of the 4 knt shit box.

Damn, ya just can't get excited around here without some shitting on you.

Well put!

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Seeing the 12 meters duking it out at Fremantle all those years ago, was the most captivating sailing, ever.  Apparently millions agreed with me.  Challenging boats in Challenging conditions, sailed by sailors who went out and sailed, if it was blowing 4 or 40.  

then we moved to boats that broke in half, if they were sailed in winds over 12 knots (giver or take I don’t remember the exact but they were limited.)

Then we moved to catamarans that did not even sail on water, the sailed over water.  

So, if ultimate speed is the answer and cost is not an object than may I present the America’s Cup boat of the future

2809F2E5-C90A-41CE-9237-D59BC298AA0C.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Santana20AE said:

Seeing the 12 meters duking it out at Fremantle all those years ago, was the most captivating sailing, ever.  Apparently millions agreed with me.  Challenging boats in Challenging conditions, sailed by sailors who went out and sailed, if it was blowing 4 or 40.  

then we moved to boats that broke in half, if they were sailed in winds over 12 knots (giver or take I don’t remember the exact but they were limited.)

Then we moved to catamarans that did not even sail on water, the sailed over water.  

So, if ultimate speed is the answer and cost is not an object than may I present the America’s Cup boat of the future

2809F2E5-C90A-41CE-9237-D59BC298AA0C.jpeg

That is really going to hunt about on a mooring.  And can I mount a BBQ to that fin?

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1 minute ago, Windward said:

That is really going to hunt about on a mooring.  And can I mount a BBQ to that fin?

Forget the fin, just put your ribs behind the exhaust. They’ll get barbecued 

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9 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

I never said it was the absolute future. Of course Debbie Downer, we will still be sailing all types of boats. But we will be watching this shit on TV instead of the 4 knt shit box.

Damn, ya just can't get excited around here without some shitting on you.

Sure, and when Thurston Howell III sniffed over his gin and tonic and said "bah, that's not a real boat" as a 110 or Hobie went past his Swan 48, he may not have meant it literally. But it still didn't make it sound any less elitist.

It's hard to see any evidence that foiling will become very popular in all aspects of sailing. Despite many predictions, we still have almost no canting keelers outside the Open classes, movable water ballast never got popular, offshore racing multis are probably less popular than they used to be, skiffs have not taken over like some people predicted. But you can make a pretty good case that the hype being thrown about such boats being "the future" is harming the sport rather than helping it. After all, it's not as if the sport is growing at the moment.

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7 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

A-Cats are really fast and really fun. Why don't I see them everywhere?

* seriously, I might buy an old one some day

We usually have 2 out in our Wet Wednesdays this season. Though they are soft sails and not the wing. They are excited to be part of the Sailing Scene instead of just going out on their own. Even the old people at the club are excited to see these speedsters joining in the fun. They have provided their multi ratings and Sailwave scores them accordingly as our new D Fleet. Besides the A cat, we have a Prindle and an occasional Nacra. With only 1 more race left, we are hoping they had enough fun to come back next year.

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The fact is (big word, fact) most sailors like to cruise and potter, even a dyed in the wool racer like me. over 90% of sailors never race. Many like to be able to spend a few nights on board, often with family or friends, accommodations are heavy with weight being the foilers biggest enemy. 

I completely agree with 'Curious' in post 24. There have been multiple "this is the futures" in the past and yet the vast majority of sailing is still done on fixed keel, non-foiling, non canting, non movable ballast monohulls.

I too love speed, my personal record is 22kts on an offshore sailing boat and 44kts on a RIB but I  also love the challenge of sneaking into a tricky mooring hole at a couple of knots with just fractions of a metre under my keel.

Foiling boats and cats are great in a straight line but often not so clever on the corners and are absolutely useless in a match race pre-start.

I have said this before on other threads, but the real future of sailing in boat terms would be a youth boat (or boats) that meant we didn't bleed our future quite so much when they got into their later teens - now there's the real challenge.

SS

PS I do agree though, this latest generation IMOCAs starting with Charal are chuffing awesome and Alex Thomson has, as usual gone that extra yard.  

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BFD...my boat is a 7kt cruiser, very comfortable and seaworthy (double hand to Hawaii in PacCup 2016).  If I want to go fast, I climb into my 1966 VW bus and haul ass down the 405 Freeway at speeds that exceed these foilers...55 to 60 mph (not knots).  Last Am Cup I watched was in Fremantle.  Roger, wilco, over and out (Sky King to Penny).

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Been too 130 in my former Corvette (Please don’t tell the Louisiana State Police) Piloted a Cutlass RG to around 140, sailed a Santana 20 to 7 (that was pretty exciting as she is getting a bit old) cruised our S2 7.9 at speeds the Santana will never see, got our MC scow well over double digits, been in pad type bass boats at over 65 (that was in the old days when a 175 Mercury V-6 was a BIG outboard) and of course well over 40 on a rain soaked, slick smooth downhill highway riding a Cervelo Time Trial bike with a sharp turn coming up.  Off them all, the greatest pucker value was the Cervelo.  They don’t like to turn, are quite unstable and frankly I was a slight bit un-nerved (read pants checking scared). Made the turn and still finished last in my class, and thats ok too cause I can do it.  

Speed is all relative to the device you are using to obtain that speed.  Having flown in airliners, (Not piloted, just rode in) I can promise you that no sailing foiler will ever approach 1/8th that speed but frankly, the Santana 20 at 7 was far more fun than the riding at close to 600,  Now the Corvette was fairly exciting considering it was still accelerating at a stiff pace.  But that’s another story.  

Point, its all relative and in the end, its not what it can do, its what you enjoy doing.  

DDF5EA56-2A28-495D-9B7D-4712CD8F354F.jpeg

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On 9/6/2019 at 1:54 PM, Curious said:

How is that "the future"? Is there going to be no one sailing 25 footers around LIS in light winds in the future?  Do you plan to shoot anyone who dares to enjoy sailing a Folkboat in SF in 2022?  Are there going to be packs of boat butchers burning all the S&S classics, the J/35s and the Melges 32s to ensure that they won't be sailing in 2025?

Are people suddenly all going to give up having comfy bunks, a decent stove, and headroom?  Are all sailors going to suddenly become super rich, able to afford new foiling boats and the people to sail them and look after them?

If this is "the future" then we'll have to make sure that people who can't afford foilers are thrown out of the sport. How are we going to do that?  

If being able to go that fast is so important to everyone, why didn't they sail ORMA 60s a decade or two ago?  Why don't all the dinghy sailors go and sail kitefoilers?

Why are foilers going to take over in the future when canters didn't take over, multis didn't take over, water ballasted boats didn't take over, and sportsboats didn't take over in the past?

Have you bought and sailed a foiler? If you haven't done it, why will everyone else do it?

The speed snobbery going around doesn't seem to be any better than the legendary snobbery of the cliche'd rich guy with the blue blazer, striped trousers and NYYC burgee hanging off his Swan. It's just a different way of promoting an elitist, inaccessible, unfriendly view of a sport that can be about everyone from some single parent's kid in an old Opti, to a rich old guy in a Dragon or a 20 something woman on a Laser or J/24.

How much does it help the sport if people who can't sail a big foiler, because of where they live, how much money they have, or just because they dare to have their own tastes, are told "fuck off, you have no future in sailing". Because that, quite simply, is what you are effectively saying to the vast majority of sailors and potential sailors. When "fuck off peasant or noob, you have no future in sailing" is the motto, it's no wonder the sport is not going well.

Jesus, lighten up Francine.

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By the trend lines, the future of boating in general is a small center console, a medium center console, or a big one. Esoteric single purpose racing sailboats are a tiny niche of a small niche.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

By the trend lines, the future of boating in general is a small center console, a medium center console, or a big one. Esoteric single purpose racing sailboats are a tiny niche of a small niche.

Buy on the rumor, sell on the news. "Center Consoles" are on their way out.

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I wonder if this will be like the introduction of short boards in windsurfing. Great fun when the wind is up, but no fun slogging and who wants to spend half their free time waiting on a beach*.  

 

*disclaimer: my last board was a 85l wave board. 

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On 9/5/2019 at 6:49 PM, basketcase said:

Thats slow......

 

 

https://youtu.be/ceZciIrxuv4

It's going to be great to watch HB this go-round. If it can get up and fly like that even relatively consistently records are shattering. You compare that speed with that Apivia vid and it's just not even remotely the same game.

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Buy on the rumor, sell on the news. "Center Consoles" are on their way out.

Replaced by ?????? I always did think the trend odd, you have a 40 foot boat with no place to get out of the rain :rolleyes:

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On 9/7/2019 at 2:54 AM, Curious said:

movable water ballast never got popular,

 

You are forgetting about the Mac 26!! LOL :P

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On 9/6/2019 at 10:13 PM, Windward said:

That is really going to hunt about on a mooring.  And can I mount a BBQ to that fin?

 

Didn't Aussies have some kind of coolers on the foiling AC boat?

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On 9/6/2019 at 5:54 AM, Curious said:

How is that "the future"? Is there going to be no one sailing 25 footers around LIS in light winds in the future?  Do you plan to shoot anyone who dares to enjoy sailing a Folkboat in SF in 2022?  Are there going to be packs of boat butchers burning all the S&S classics, the J/35s and the Melges 32s to ensure that they won't be sailing in 2025?

Are people suddenly all going to give up having comfy bunks, a decent stove, and headroom?  Are all sailors going to suddenly become super rich, able to afford new foiling boats and the people to sail them and look after them?

If this is "the future" then we'll have to make sure that people who can't afford foilers are thrown out of the sport. How are we going to do that?  

If being able to go that fast is so important to everyone, why didn't they sail ORMA 60s a decade or two ago?  Why don't all the dinghy sailors go and sail kitefoilers?

Why are foilers going to take over in the future when canters didn't take over, multis didn't take over, water ballasted boats didn't take over, and sportsboats didn't take over in the past?

Have you bought and sailed a foiler? If you haven't done it, why will everyone else do it?

The speed snobbery going around doesn't seem to be any better than the legendary snobbery of the cliche'd rich guy with the blue blazer, striped trousers and NYYC burgee hanging off his Swan. It's just a different way of promoting an elitist, inaccessible, unfriendly view of a sport that can be about everyone from some single parent's kid in an old Opti, to a rich old guy in a Dragon or a 20 something woman on a Laser or J/24.

How much does it help the sport if people who can't sail a big foiler, because of where they live, how much money they have, or just because they dare to have their own tastes, are told "fuck off, you have no future in sailing". Because that, quite simply, is what you are effectively saying to the vast majority of sailors and potential sailors. When "fuck off peasant or noob, you have no future in sailing" is the motto, it's no wonder the sport is not going well.

Why is your "slow snobbery" any better than the "speed snobbery" you decry? Honestly, Curious, you really just don't make any sense. What exactly are you trying to argue for here? Can you actually articulate it?

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I love sailing. That's complicated. Sometimes slow is beautiful. Sometimes 17 knots on then end of a plank or supported by a wire is fantastic. It will always be so.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Replaced by ?????? I always did think the trend odd, you have a 40 foot boat with no place to get out of the rain :rolleyes:

If you look at the "consoles" they are actually morphing to "walkarounds" but nobody wants to say that. There are full galley/head/bunks in some. The features that builders are adding are antithetical to center console. The original CC movement was very decisively anti-missus. They were beautifully simple straight up fishing machines. But just as the "sportfiherman" required all that galley up / galley down and saloon appointment nonsense--to please the missus, the same thing is happening to CC. Of course the irony of this is that the CC came of age during a time of increasing female primary buying decision power. So as long as there are women wanting fishing machines with 1400 outboard hp and only a simple console, then you'll see them built in numbers. But the numbers are changing. 10 years from now will be different.

The other movements in the market are of coure superpontoons, and windowboats. The latter are typically ugly as blue mud and landlubberly but what do you expect?

I think the "swoopy" styling can't last. So fugly. The windowboats are all "chiny" and sharp edged but they remain swoopy. But that's mostly styling "cue" crap.

The center console evolution/devolution is actually based on performance specification creep. Away from fishing towards all the other activities you are supposed to support.

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1 hour ago, billy backstay said:

 

Didn't Aussies have some kind of coolers on the foiling AC boat?

Thought it was kiwis and pie warmers 

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1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

It's going to be great to watch HB this go-round. If it can get up and fly like that even relatively consistently records are shattering. You compare that speed with that Apivia vid and it's just not even remotely the same game.

If he can keep it together...... but you know what they say.... theres no such thing as bad press. Probably why the boss name is on the bottom of the boat as well. 

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1 hour ago, basketcase said:

Thought it was kiwis and pie warmers 

 

Yes, that's the one!!

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3 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

Yes, that's the one!!

When I was a kid, I was somewhat obsessed with air intakes for cars. I drew too many sketches of them. Those pie warmers---yep. I thought there were twin 426 hemi's under there.

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On 9/5/2019 at 3:57 PM, Meat Wad said:

Fast passages and lots of partying

 

I know, I am quoting my self here.
But

I need to apologize for getting excited. about speed.

You see, after  February of 1998, I was discharged form Rehab after falling 25 ft and blowing out my T-11 vertebra. thus making me a paraplegic. 6 months later I was in St Pete Fl with a bunch of other disabled sailors.

Shortly there after I experienced Land sailing and found out what sailing was like at high speeds.

Then the AC changed forever and I realized that soon others would know what I experienced.

Well, it's too bad most are stuck on the old school while missing the cool classes. The future is speed.

Speed at a fraction of the cost of Traditional  Sailing. Go right to the 2:25 mark and notice the guy in the Yellow windbreaker. He (a Kiwi) ended up winning the series and I took second. Yea a paraplegic took second. The race is all weight classes racing together.

 

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We have a few Wazps sailing out of TRYC and they are exciting to watch as they fly by the 420’s and any other boat sail or power nearby. 

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5 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Why is your "slow snobbery" any better than the "speed snobbery" you decry? Honestly, Curious, you really just don't make any sense. What exactly are you trying to argue for here? Can you actually articulate it?

Really? I thought it was fairly obvious.

Not everyone will sail a foiler in the future, therefore foiling is not "the future". Foiling is just one part, and probably a wonderful but small part, of a much more interesting future in which the diversity of the sport is recognised.  And to claim there is "slow snobbery" in that post is dishonest. It never implied that going slow was better.

 

 

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6 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

You are forgetting about the Mac 26!! LOL :P

Sorry, I meant "movable" from side to side 'cause I was trying to stop someone bringing up the Mac.  :-)

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7 hours ago, Elegua said:

I wonder if this will be like the introduction of short boards in windsurfing. Great fun when the wind is up, but no fun slogging and who wants to spend half their free time waiting on a beach*.  

 

*disclaimer: my last board was a 85l wave board. 

Yep, windsurfing is a classic example of what can go wrong. It was the fastest growing water sport, then it became too complicated, expensive, technical and elitist, and it collapsed.  It seems that a lot of people in the "boat sailing" media and World Sailing want boats to follow the same disastrous trajectory, but luckily the sport's structure seems to be too strong.

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On 9/6/2019 at 8:57 AM, Meat Wad said:

Fast passages and lots of partiyng

 

Can we see a tack or a gybe?

How long does it take I wonder.

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3 hours ago, phillysailor said:

What do they do with the foils when they tie up to a dock?

There was an interesting piece about that on the French site Voiles et Voiliers, where they interviewed the harbourmaster at Lorient. He noted how hard the Open 60s were to handle when they were docking (although the pros are OK at it, partly because they have RIBs and shore crews) but "amateurs are warned" about the problems of docking foilers. The pros have huge custom-built inflatable fenders that seem to fit around the foils. They also get charged as much as a multi for berthing because they take up so much space.

The article notes that the Figaro IIIs won't fit into the marina berths for boats of their size, so they are going to have to re-arrange the berths. And of course, that's extra costs that are going to get passed on. 

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4 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

I know, I am quoting my self here.
But

I need to apologize for getting excited. about speed.

You see, after  February of 1998, I was discharged form Rehab after falling 25 ft and blowing out my T-11 vertebra. thus making me a paraplegic. 6 months later I was in St Pete Fl with a bunch of other disabled sailors.

Shortly there after I experienced Land sailing and found out what sailing was like at high speeds.

Then the AC changed forever and I realized that soon others would know what I experienced.

Well, it's too bad most are stuck on the old school while missing the cool classes. The future is speed.

Speed at a fraction of the cost of Traditional  Sailing. Go right to the 2:25 mark and notice the guy in the Yellow windbreaker. He (a Kiwi) ended up winning the series and I took second. Yea a paraplegic took second. The race is all weight classes racing together.

 

My commiserations about your injury, but why can't you just enjoy your land sailing without the patronising and insulting comments that people are "stuck on the old school"? 

Hundreds of thousands of windsurfers, kiters, multi sailors and skiff sailors knew about the joys of high speed sailing long before you did and long before the AC got there. Many of them dropped out because of factors like expense, complication and the limited areas they can sail.  Many of the people who sail them or have sailed them also sail "old school" classes because those classes work so damn well. Fast can be fun, but expense, inconvenience, small fleets and limitations on sailing ground aren't, so why piss on the classes that other people enjoy?  

When modern foiling first arrived, one or two of the top guys used to post here. They basically told the one-eyed foiling fans that while foiling was great, it was never going to be "the future". They said that because they had actual hands-on experience, and history shows us that they were correct. It'll be a wonderful part of the future, but that doesn't mean you have to tell the people who won't or can't sail them that they may as well fuck off out of sailing because they are not part of its future.

By the way, according to Bouwe Bekking, the Open 60s for the The Ocean Race will cost twice as much as a VO 65. A Figaro III's foil and cases increase its cost by about a third. That is not "a fraction of the cost"!

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Curious said:

Yep, windsurfing is a classic example of what can go wrong. It was the fastest growing water sport, then it became too complicated, expensive, technical and elitist, and it collapsed.  It seems that a lot of people in the "boat sailing" media and World Sailing want boats to follow the same disastrous trajectory, but luckily the sport's structure seems to be too strong.

The original windsurfer for all its flaws, was actually fun to sail in light wind. It was like a sunfish you were standing on.

My favorite part of old schol, just because of the womnkyiness: hanging the dagger board from your elbow on the downwind leg!

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4 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

I know, I am quoting my self here.
But

I need to apologize for getting excited. about speed.

You see, after  February of 1998, I was discharged form Rehab after falling 25 ft and blowing out my T-11 vertebra. thus making me a paraplegic. 6 months later I was in St Pete Fl with a bunch of other disabled sailors.

Shortly there after I experienced Land sailing and found out what sailing was like at high speeds.

Then the AC changed forever and I realized that soon others would know what I experienced.

Well, it's too bad most are stuck on the old school while missing the cool classes. The future is speed.

Speed at a fraction of the cost of Traditional  Sailing. Go right to the 2:25 mark and notice the guy in the Yellow windbreaker. He (a Kiwi) ended up winning the series and I took second. Yea a paraplegic took second. The race is all weight classes racing together.

 

wow. That is fast.

That's some rapid fire decision making! You seemed to go inside the first mark, then purposely went wide. Are there rules handling mark rounding that allow for congestion and encourage a clean (no contact) exit with mild penalty for such a decision?

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

The original windsurfer for all its flaws, was actually fun to sail in light wind. It was like a sunfish you were standing on.

My favorite part of old schol, just because of the womnkyiness: hanging the dagger board from your elbow on the downwind leg!

I had an original style windsurfer. It was fun. My friends got into the smaller "sinker" boards and wouldn't even think about getting them out if it wasn't blowing 25 or more. Then the things got used so rarely they just rotted behind the woodpile forgotten and no n00b is going to look at a sinker and think "I can do that".

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10 hours ago, Curious said:

My commiserations about your injury, but why can't you just enjoy your land sailing without the patronising and insulting comments that people are "stuck on the old school"? 

 

 

 

Because he is a sailor-not just a land sailor. The only insulting comment is from you. I have a very nice  wooded sailboat and am stuck in the old school. I also have a sportboat and like the idea of doing 18 knots vs 6 am am stuck in the new school as well. Foiling could be in the future if I don’t age out by the time they are more widespread.

 

 

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Meh, the future is not just speed. Speed is just one very fun facet of sailing.  A narrow focus on speed means you miss out on a lot of the broader experience sailing has to offer. It's going to be hard to trailer-sail or go cruising with the family on a foiler. Olde skoole is still the best school for some things. 

 

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10 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I had an original style windsurfer. It was fun. My friends got into the smaller "sinker" boards and wouldn't even think about getting them out if it wasn't blowing 25 or more. Then the things got used so rarely they just rotted behind the woodpile forgotten and no n00b is going to look at a sinker and think "I can do that".

The Gorge changed that.  Uphauling became onerous.  Longboards were heavy, hard to store, etc etc.  

I miss d2 sailing in 3KRW. Crisp sailing in light air......

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2 minutes ago, Amati said:

The Gorge changed that.  Uphauling became onerous.  Longboards were heavy, hard to store, etc etc.  

I miss d2 sailing in 3KRW. Crisp sailing in light air......

Note the Gorge. Yeah, the one percenters of sailing ;-)

 

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1 hour ago, Elegua said:

Meh, the future is not just speed. Speed is just one very fun facet of sailing.  A narrow focus on speed means you miss out on a lot of the broader experience sailing has to offer. It's going to be hard to trailer-sail or go cruising with the family on a foiler. Olde skoole is still the best school for some MOST things. 

 

FFU M8!

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39 minutes ago, Amati said:

The Gorge changed that.  Uphauling became onerous.  Longboards were heavy, hard to store, etc etc.  

I miss d2 sailing in 3KRW. Crisp sailing in light air......

For the 99.9999% of sailors not able to sail the Gorge, windsurfing was dead at that point.

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If she look right; then she be right. 

History teaches us what works and is lasting.

ILYA scows have proven to be very fast and workable. So many of our latest off shore racers are scows with a pointed bow. We shall see how the foilers fair (pun not intended) 

Do remember, Alexander Graham Bell built a foiler over a hundred years ago. It worked but did it inspire?  

Herreschoff separated a rudder from the keel. It worked and eventually we decided it DID work. 

So in the end we shall see, in the future what works And is lasting. 

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My questions about viability of foiling for keelboats, as I think it's much more suited to dinghys like the UFO.

Assume you take a Pogo 30 and reduce the beam from 12ft to 9ft-10ft, reduce ballast to retain the same AVS, and add HB style foils. Would the resulting boat be significantly faster than the Pogo? How much more expensive would the boat be? IMOCA foils cost about half a million and Figaro 3 foils add about a third to the boats price. Would the foiling boat be faster than an equally expensive larger boat? How much wind speed would the 30ft keelboat require to make the foils pay off in drag and power?

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16 hours ago, Curious said:

My commiserations about your injury, but why can't you just enjoy your land sailing without the patronising and insulting comments that people are "stuck on the old school"? 

Hundreds of thousands of windsurfers, kiters, multi sailors and skiff sailors knew about the joys of high speed sailing long before you did and long before the AC got there. Many of them dropped out because of factors like expense, complication and the limited areas they can sail.  Many of the people who sail them or have sailed them also sail "old school" classes because those classes work so damn well. Fast can be fun, but expense, inconvenience, small fleets and limitations on sailing ground aren't, so why piss on the classes that other people enjoy?  

When modern foiling first arrived, one or two of the top guys used to post here. They basically told the one-eyed foiling fans that while foiling was great, it was never going to be "the future". They said that because they had actual hands-on experience, and history shows us that they were correct. It'll be a wonderful part of the future, but that doesn't mean you have to tell the people who won't or can't sail them that they may as well fuck off out of sailing because they are not part of its future.

By the way, according to Bouwe Bekking, the Open 60s for the The Ocean Race will cost twice as much as a VO 65. A Figaro III's foil and cases increase its cost by about a third. That is not "a fraction of the cost"!

 

 

 

Because I started sailing in 1973 at the age of 15 and by 18, I was making sails at the local loft. for 11 years I made sails the old fashion way, no computers.

I've seen the sport transition and I have had to also. Most do not have to do that.

It's all sailing. The issue is so many really do not think that the foiling is sailing just like they do not consider any other aspects of sailing as sailing.

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Foiling is sailing as are about 100 other things.

Sailing was at its peak when a boat could possibly win a race, sail across an ocean, be a live-aboard home, take grandma for an hour sail, and take a family for a summer cruise. All the specialized high speed inventions in the world combined aren't putting up numbers close to what the old 6KSBs and 4KSBs did.

If going fast was going to be the in thing for all we would have race courses stuffed with Corsair and Firefly trimarans, hordes of A-Cats, Skiffs, 49ers, 29ers, Moths, and so on ALREADY. 

IMHO of course.

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16 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Foiling is sailing as are about 100 other things.

Sailing was at its peak when a boat could possibly win a race, sail across an ocean, be a live-aboard home, take grandma for an hour sail, and take a family for a summer cruise. All the specialized high speed inventions in the world combined aren't putting up numbers close to what the old 6KSBs and 4KSBs did.

If going fast was going to be the in thing for all we would have race courses stuffed with Corsair and Firefly trimarans, hordes of A-Cats, Skiffs, 49ers, 29ers, Moths, and so on ALREADY. 

IMHO of course.

Stilettos. Defianitely Stilettos.

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10 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Because he is a sailor-not just a land sailor. The only insulting comment is from you. I have a very nice  wooded sailboat and am stuck in the old school. I also have a sportboat and like the idea of doing 18 knots vs 6 am am stuck in the new school as well. Foiling could be in the future if I don’t age out by the time they are more widespread.

 

 

+1

Meat - that's some damn cool sailing. Congrats on taking 2nd!

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5 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Because I started sailing in 1973 at the age of 15 and by 18, I was making sails at the local loft. for 11 years I made sails the old fashion way, no computers.

I've seen the sport transition and I have had to also. Most do not have to do that.

It's all sailing. The issue is so many really do not think that the foiling is sailing just like they do not consider any other aspects of sailing as sailing.

My 88 year old father doesn’t consider foiling to be sailing until we discuss tactics, the level of concentration and teamwork involved to win a race around the course. Mono hullx100

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On 9/9/2019 at 2:31 PM, phillysailor said:

What do they do with the foils when they tie up to a dock?

or roar through a pot infested area like Maine or Chesapeake Bay cutting floats loose.

Yeah, that is how you make buddies...

 

As for speed, every NEXT GREATEST ROCKETSHIP has come back to earth.

Remember catamarans in the 80s?

Wind surfers in the 90s?

$port boats with the new millennium (and hyped to 11 in this forum)?.

Now we have foiling.

Just another set of vessels that will be cheap on Craig's list in 10 years when the next big thing comes and nobody wants these ugly uncomfortable things..

Meanwhile, try to find a Cal 40 or Swan, or Etchells in decent condition for a decent price ...

 

Some day you hopefully will grow up and understand that while you peddled your 1st bicycle as fast as you could around the neighborhood, you dad was pounding your mom back home slow and hard cause they both knew speed is not everything...

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8 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

For the 99.9999% of sailors not able to sail the Gorge, windsurfing was dead at that point.

As a windsurfer who loves the Gorge I have to admit you are correct.  Industry designed itself into relative obscurity.  With all the best of intentions I am sure.

Are these foilers the same?  No... Not likely that everyone will even try them, much less be adopted by all.

Windsurfing = just about everyone tried it.

Foiling sailboats = few tried it. (at the moment)

50 years from now?  Hmmm... perhaps.  If we are not slithering along on anti-grav plates and blathering along about sunspot shifts.

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16 hours ago, Amati said:

The Gorge changed that.  

What is the Gorge? I did some searching. Is it just a place for windsurfing?

I had a div II racer and a semi-sinker in the 80's. Well I still have both, but haven't used them for years. Never heard about the Gorge before.

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A big problem with catamarans is that speed lives at a sensitive balance point, and several exits from that balance are catastrophic.

In a purely analog world, foiling should be as bad or worse. But with good digital control systems, it seems like you should be able to build a fast multi that is able to steer away from many capsize events.

It wouldn’t be the same sport, but then the 80% of crew time spent on woodworking disappeared with fiberglass and we still sail.

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46 minutes ago, apophenia said:

A big problem with catamarans is that speed lives at a sensitive balance point, and several exits from that balance are catastrophic.

In a purely analog world, foiling should be as bad or worse. But with good digital control systems, it seems like you should be able to build a fast multi that is able to steer away from many capsize events.

It wouldn’t be the same sport, but then the 80% of crew time spent on woodworking disappeared with fiberglass and we still sail.

Digital? Ugh. Mechanical.
The navy has a lot of experience with that electonic stuff. Or did. Hydrofoils seem to have fallen out of favor.
Following seas are actually tricky.

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2 hours ago, Joakim said:

What is the Gorge?

Columbia River Gorge between the states of Washington and Oregon in the USA.

The river goes through the Cascade Mountain Range in a long narrow channel for about 80 miles/130/km. To the east is warm desert, to the west is cool Pacific Ocean. That temperature gradient sucks wind through the gorge at 30 knots much of the summer. Not just for windsurfing; Moore 24s use it too!

gorge_WindSurfing_03.jpg.760101cd85522be33d14ed0cde061e17.jpg

gorge_moore.jpg.a805547cb67c3e1320ab133a860c27ab.jpg

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Ok, so it was just a local place for heavy wind sailing. What does it have to do with the development of windsurfing gear and windsurfing becoming less popular than it was?

I just heard that the original Windsurfer class is getting popular after almost 40 years. Is that true? Or maybe it's this new version? https://windsurf.star-board.com/products/windsurfer-lt/

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On 9/10/2019 at 3:28 AM, Curious said:

The article notes that the Figaro IIIs won't fit into the marina berths for boats of their size, so they are going to have to re-arrange the berths. And of course, that's extra costs that are going to get passed on. 

Figaro 3 has retractable foils that from pictures won't protrude a lot. It is 1cm shorter overall than Pogo 36, but hull width is 60cm less. 2½m draft might be the issue?

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1 hour ago, Joakim said:

Ok, so it was just a local place for heavy wind sailing. What does it have to do with the development of windsurfing gear and windsurfing becoming less popular than it was?

I just heard that the original Windsurfer class is getting popular after almost 40 years. Is that true? Or maybe it's this new version? https://windsurf.star-board.com/products/windsurfer-lt/

It's the new version, designed in reaction to the collapse in windsurfing as the sport got obsessed with high performance at the cost of versatility, economy and simplicity. Same length, slightly more width, same general style as the original, 6kg lighter. The 1980s rig from the existing One Designs have been retained although a two piece mast is now available for convenience.  There have been 3200+ sold in about a year, putting it ahead of the Opti and Laser, and demand is running faster than supply despite at least three moulds in use; there may now be a fourth in operation.

The design is by former World Cup pro Bruce Wylie, who heads the manufacturing at Cobra who make most of the world's windsurfers under contract to the big brands. It was quickly adopted and developed with the Windsurfer Class Associations in Italy and Australia.  Any manufacturer can sell them with their own graphics and labels and Starboard, Naish, I-99, Exocet, Windsurfer Class Europe and Windsurfer Class Australia are already doing so, with other major brands looking to follow. The whole point is that many of the heads of the industry have now realised that those who said elitist high performance boards were "the future of windsurfing" were wrong, and they are combining to re-launch simple sailing in light winds and strong.

The Windsurfer Class had already been revived in Italy (where it had been basically dead) and had grown again in Australia (where it has always been raced) using the 1980s version of the original, but the new board has kicked things along further.  In light winds the new board is no faster but is easier to sail, and in strong winds it's easier to sail and knots quicker downwind. The introduction of the new board was also very well done; existing class members were sold the boards at a huge bargain, the old boards remain competitive in the right hands most of the time, and the existing rig was kept.

The significant thing is that a craft specifically designed to stress simplicity, ease of use, economy and versatility is selling far, far faster than any of the craft that many people call "the future".  

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1 hour ago, Upp3 said:

Figaro 3 has retractable foils that from pictures won't protrude a lot. It is 1cm shorter overall than Pogo 36, but hull width is 60cm less. 2½m draft might be the issue?

Don't know; I was just quoting the article. I think I saw some pics of them rafting up with very big fenders out, because the foils were sticking out a fair way.

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