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Snore

Did Donnie Get Something Right?

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Let me start with I am not a devote Trumpette!  (Good thing AL was spared)

 

Today’s NY Times has an interesting article. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/06/business/china-economy-reserve.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

 

In summary the threat of tariffs has further weakened the Chinese debt-driven economy “By calling on banks to lend more to companies and debt-laden local governments, it is hoping to incite growth. Many businesses are finding it harder to keep their doors open, unemployment is creeping up and families are shouldering higher daily costs.”

Could the orange wonder be doing something right?  Please it is too easy to just bash him, and never forget- Sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut

 

Thoughts?

 

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Oh yeah, structural and intentional Chinese policies which create trade imbalances and encourage/demand intellectual property theft is the one area where Trump has well represented America’s best interests.

Im not saying I approve of his methods, but what do I know? He’s in the position and jopefully knows best.

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Steve Jobs had a famous meeting when he was reinstated at Apple. After a parade of product ideas, all aimed at Microsoft, he stopped the meeting 

Paraphrasing “for Apple to succeed does not mean Microsoft must fail”

i think the same should be said for the US and China. 

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4 hours ago, Snore said:

Let me start with I am not a devote Trumpette!  (Good thing AL was spared)

 

Today’s NY Times has an interesting article. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/06/business/china-economy-reserve.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

 

In summary the threat of tariffs has further weakened the Chinese debt-driven economy “By calling on banks to lend more to companies and debt-laden local governments, it is hoping to incite growth. Many businesses are finding it harder to keep their doors open, unemployment is creeping up and families are shouldering higher daily costs.”

Could the orange wonder be doing something right?  Please it is too easy to just bash him, and never forget- Sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut

 

Thoughts?

 

The ends don't justify the means.  There were other ways to work this out, and the nuclear option is pretty much NEVER the best option.

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If a kid pulls the fire alarm in school every day, sooner or later by random chance there actually will be fire. Kid is still a dick.

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5 hours ago, Snore said:

Thoughts?

This doesn't even qualify for a participation trophy.

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5 hours ago, Snore said:

Let me start with I am not a devote Trumpette!  (Good thing AL was spared)

 

Today’s NY Times has an interesting article. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/06/business/china-economy-reserve.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

 

In summary the threat of tariffs has further weakened the Chinese debt-driven economy “By calling on banks to lend more to companies and debt-laden local governments, it is hoping to incite growth. Many businesses are finding it harder to keep their doors open, unemployment is creeping up and families are shouldering higher daily costs.”

Could the orange wonder be doing something right?  Please it is too easy to just bash him, and never forget- Sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut

 

Thoughts?

 

China developed from a sweatshop to a pretty decent standard shunting such work to neighbors who are glad for work. 

The US and other developed nations will never match the cost effectiveness of these populous countries in products where labour is required the only way to match them is by robots. Most of the US is happy destroying Chinas economy glossing over the human cost and suffering it creates not realizing that these jobs will never come back to them, to their country yes but not to them. 

The world should be looking to grow and face the coming technological challenges togather. To lift people out of poverty and educate them and the brightest of them will take us all forward. But we are going to wind up nuking each other and killing the earth just so that others can't have what we do.

Theres no fun in winning if nobody loses right?

 

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

Steve Jobs had a famous meeting when he was reinstated at Apple. After a parade of product ideas, all aimed at Microsoft, he stopped the meeting 

Paraphrasing “for Apple to succeed does not mean Microsoft must fail”

i think the same should be said for the US and China. 

VERY well said. 

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Trade between China and the US is a benefit for both countries as long as they agree on the basics of labor, enviro and IP standards. No trade, and the countries lose efficiency, GDP, wealth and jobs

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28 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

VERY well said. 

agreed, but it seems like we live in the age of the zero sum game.  How people got to thinking like this I do not know, but we no longer seek the rising tide that lifts all boats.  Getting back to that would be positive, methinks. 

In other news...  The best thing that the Pride of the GOP has gotten right is the abject humiliation of John Bolton.  There is nothing in the world better than watching that chickenhawk cocksucker getting his nuts clipped time and time again. 

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13 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Trade between China and the US is a benefit for both countries as long as they agree on the basics of labor, enviro and IP standards. No trade, and the countries lose efficiency, GDP, wealth and jobs

Agreed.   While the tariff  is a de facto tax on that, it needs to be stated and applied to all the countries who abuse workers and the environment.

See also

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/dec/02/chittagong-shipbreaking-yards-legal-fight

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7 minutes ago, Snore said:

Agreed.   While the tariff  is a de facto tax on that, it needs to be stated and applied to all the countries who abuse workers and the environment.

See also

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/dec/02/chittagong-shipbreaking-yards-legal-fight

A tariff to equalize the cost disadvantage of say, clean water is totally legit.

A tariff to punish a country that has cheaper labor rate? The height of stupidity, as all it does is punish your own consumers.

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11 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

A tariff to punish a country that has cheaper labor rate? The height of stupidity, as all it does is punish your own consumers.

If the cheap labor rate is the result of lax safety standards and paying a wage that does not allow for the worker to house and feed his family- that is not a competitive advantage.  That borders on slave or forced labor.

 

Better example is if a developed country (i.e. European) can make a widget cheaper than the US, fine.  If we are comparing it to India, etc not a fair competition.

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7 hours ago, Snore said:

Let me start with I am not a devote Trumpette!  (Good thing AL was spared)

 

Today’s NY Times has an interesting article. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/06/business/china-economy-reserve.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

 

In summary the threat of tariffs has further weakened the Chinese debt-driven economy “By calling on banks to lend more to companies and debt-laden local governments, it is hoping to incite growth. Many businesses are finding it harder to keep their doors open, unemployment is creeping up and families are shouldering higher daily costs.”

Could the orange wonder be doing something right?  Please it is too easy to just bash him, and never forget- Sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut

 

Thoughts?

 

And how do they pay off the new debt, especially if they haven’t been able to prosper in a good economy?  

What does Trump do when the debt is not paid?  What do his buddies do, forgive the debt, or swoop in at pennies on the dollar?

What happens to banks burdened with bad debts?

its even worse for municipalities, unless Trump really is a socialist- and this is a sneaky way to get his followers to pay for it-

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32 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

A tariff to equalize the cost disadvantage of say, clean water is totally legit.

A tariff to punish a country that has cheaper labor rate? The height of stupidity, as all it does is punish your own consumers.

So let's get something straight.  The company making the good does not pay the tariff.  They still make the good for the same amount just like they always did.  Then as it is brought here and they pay a tax to bring it in.  Which either lowers their profits, or increases the selling price.  So our consumer pays the tax.... to our government, using these companies as  a middle man.  Think about that.

The ONLY time a tariff even slightly works to help our companies is when our companies actually make a competing good and make it HERE, so they don't have to pay the tax.  But the simple reality is that 99% of the goods being taxed don't have local manufacturers!  As a result, all these tariffs have done is lower overall demand here, and slightly hurt china.  There might be a few goods that this doesn't apply to, but not many.

Trump is fucking the US consumer, and these idiots cheering for it don't even realize he's fucking them.

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8 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

So let's get something straight.  The company making the good does not pay the tariff.  They still make the good for the same amount just like they always did.  Then as it is brought here and they pay a tax to bring it in.  Which either lowers their profits, or increases the selling price.  So our consumer pays the tax.... to our government, using these companies as  a middle man.  Think about that.

The ONLY time a tariff even slightly works to help our companies is when our companies actually make a competing good and make it HERE, so they don't have to pay the tax.  But the simple reality is that 99% of the goods being taxed don't have local manufacturers!  As a result, all these tariffs have done is lower overall demand here, and slightly hurt china.  There might be a few goods that this doesn't apply to, but not many.

Trump is fucking the US consumer, and these idiots cheering for it don't even realize he's fucking them.

So Mexico China is not paying for it?  Bhut he promised!  

 

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1 hour ago, Amati said:

And how do they pay off the new debt, especially if they haven’t been able to prosper in a good economy?  

What does Trump do when the debt is not paid?  What do his buddies do, forgive the debt, or swoop in at pennies on the dollar?

What happens to banks burdened with bad debts?

its even worse for municipalities, unless Trump really is a socialist- and this is a sneaky way to get his followers to pay for it-

 

Did you read the prior posts carefully?  We are talking about the CHINESE economy.  If the debt is not paid, why should Trump do anything????

 

Now a separate issue is, “Can the collapse of the Chinese economy have global impacts?”  And of course is it the USA’s obligation to bail them out?

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

 

Trump is fucking the US consumer, and these idiots cheering for it don't even realize he's fucking them.

 

 

Let’s get this straight.  Either the Chinese fuck us (patent and intellectual property rip-offs taking jobs), OR Donnie fucks the consumer.  It appears that with the later, we have a chance of reducing the prior.

 

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4 hours ago, Raz'r said:

“for Apple to succeed does not mean Microsoft must fail”

Coke has the same opinion of Pepsi 

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31 minutes ago, Snore said:

 

Let’s get this straight.  Either the Chinese fuck us (patent and intellectual property rip-offs taking jobs), OR Donnie fucks the consumer.  It appears that with the later, we have a chance of reducing the prior.

 

It's not an either-or proposition.

What economic leverage does the US have over China? Well for a while we were building an economic coalition that included their customers and their energy suppliers, that -should- have been able to exert some leverage to get them to change their tricks since all Western countries are getting ripped off like we are.

But President Trump threw that out the window, pretty much the only campaign promise he's fulfilled. Meanwhile, the only thing China is doing is fucking the US even harder than ever while Trump sticks his his own sorry little pecker into the soup.

- DSK

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2 hours ago, Snore said:

If the cheap labor rate is the result of lax safety standards and paying a wage that does not allow for the worker to house and feed his family- that is not a competitive advantage.  That borders on slave or forced labor.

 

Better example is if a developed country (i.e. European) can make a widget cheaper than the US, fine.  If we are comparing it to India, etc not a fair competition.

Well, I agree in principle, however, EVEN if China and India had the same enviro and labor standards, it's hard to argue that the cost of labor would be the same. US has what, 3% unemployment? What level of education, again, in general? Do you think it would hard to find labor in China/India for 1/5th US rates? How about Vietnam, Angola? Face it, there are places with lots of young people without jobs who will work for less than in the US.

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Here is another thread that goes from an innocent question on a Trump success to a full scale TDS. You dont like his methods (lilely his success with his methods) bit every other method has been a failure. 

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

So let's get something straight.  The company making the good does not pay the tariff.  They still make the good for the same amount just like they always did.  Then as it is brought here and they pay a tax to bring it in.  Which either lowers their profits, or increases the selling price.  So our consumer pays the tax.... to our government, using these companies as  a middle man.  Think about that.

The ONLY time a tariff even slightly works to help our companies is when our companies actually make a competing good and make it HERE, so they don't have to pay the tax.  But the simple reality is that 99% of the goods being taxed don't have local manufacturers!  As a result, all these tariffs have done is lower overall demand here, and slightly hurt china.  There might be a few goods that this doesn't apply to, but not many.

Trump is fucking the US consumer, and these idiots cheering for it don't even realize he's fucking them.

Snore started on the right track, but has veered into the trap of "I'll show those fuckers, I'll commit suicide! That'll teach them!"

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1 minute ago, warbird said:

Here is another thread that goes from an innocent question on a Trump success to a full scale TDS. You dont like his methods (lilely his success with his methods) bit every other method has been a failure. 

really?

How do you measure this failure? Stock Market level? Unemployement/Inflationary balance? 

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1 minute ago, warbird said:

Here is another thread that goes from an innocent question on a Trump success to a full scale TDS. You dont like his methods (lilely his success with his methods) bit every other method has been a failure. 

If that's true then how did the US become an economic success in the first place?

You have an extremely weird definition of "success" and "failure."

- DSK

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Trump is a business genius, everyone is saying it.  When I say everyone I mean FOXy Friends and the Trump cult base

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26 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

really?

How do you measure this failure? Stock Market level? Unemployement/Inflationary balance? 

 

25 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

If that's true then how did the US become an economic success in the first place?

You have an extremely weird definition of "success" and "failure."

- DSK

I am sorry. I was not clear. Every other method to bring China in line with fair trading practices  and recognition of intellectual properties has failed.

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40 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

If that's true then how did the US become an economic success in the first place?

You have an extremely weird definition of "success" and "failure."

- DSK

I can't keep up either.

image.png.170c99a4a88939173c2ab25b78309939.png

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38 minutes ago, warbird said:

 

I am sorry. I was not clear. Every other method to bring China in line with fair trading practices  and recognition of intellectual properties has failed.

1 -That's bullshit.

2-TPP was designed to keep China in line, but your boy shitstain fucked that up.

3-Trump is spectacularly unqualified to do this and you, being a dumb drunk fuck, don't care.

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1 hour ago, warbird said:

 

I am sorry. I was not clear. Every other method to bring China in line with fair trading practices  and recognition of intellectual properties has failed.

So let's clarify.

How are these tariffs going to fix that problem?

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2 hours ago, warbird said:

 

I am sorry. I was not clear. Every other method to bring China in line with fair trading practices  and recognition of intellectual properties has failed.

Every business that went to play in China knew the rules. Handing over IP was one of those rules. Yet they still did it. Now they want the consumer to bail them out.

See a pattern here?

 

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I have a strange feeling that the 3000+ year old Chinese civilization is going to weather the Trumpnado without batting an eye. But it was nice of Trump to put the next U.S. administration at a distinct disadvantage in future negotiations with China. When Trump leaves office (please dear Jesus), how the hell is anyone going to untangle the ball of shit Trump has left behind?  Not only has he fucked us over, he's made sure it will take years to recover from the "burn this bitch down" damage. 

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1 hour ago, bhyde said:

I have a strange feeling that the 3000+ year old Chinese civilization is going to weather the Trumpnado without batting an eye. But it was nice of Trump to put the next U.S. administration at a distinct disadvantage in future negotiations with China. When Trump leaves office (please dear Jesus), how the hell is anyone going to untangle the ball of shit Trump has left behind?  Not only has he fucked us over, he's made sure it will take years to recover from the "burn this bitch down" damage. 

You are some kind of foolish to fail to remember that a 500 year old dynasty failed miserbly to control an upstart colony......

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12 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Well, I agree in principle, however, EVEN if China and India had the same enviro and labor standards, it's hard to argue that the cost of labor would be the same. US has what, 3% unemployment? What level of education, again, in general? Do you think it would hard to find labor in China/India for 1/5th US rates? How about Vietnam, Angola? Face it, there are places with lots of young people without jobs who will work for less than in the US.

If those desperate people don't adopt labor laws that are acceptable in the US, we should probably use a tariff to make sure they don't have jobs at all.

That is the idea here, is it not?

15 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Trade between China and the US is a benefit for both countries as long as they agree on the basics of labor, enviro and IP standards.

 

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11 hours ago, warbird said:

You are some kind of foolish to fail to remember that a 500 year old dynasty failed miserbly to control an upstart colony......

Really?

I've seen memes that talk about "winning the internet" so that implies that it's possible to lose the internet, right?

- DSK

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14 hours ago, Grrr... said:

So let's clarify.

How are these tariffs going to fix that problem?

Patience.....

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11 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

:lol: add history of the english crown dynastys to things warbird knows fuckall about. The House of Hanover was younger than the colonys....

I tossed a number, should I have said more than 500 years.  The mimber was illustrative of the little against big, old against new... Dont be a dick. 

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25 minutes ago, warbird said:
15 hours ago, Grrr... said:

So let's clarify.

How are these tariffs going to fix that problem?

Patience.....

Sort of like trickle-down economics? We've been waiting on that one since 1982 (election of Reagan, for those with a poor grasp of history)

 

21 minutes ago, warbird said:

I tossed a number, should I have said more than 500 years.  The mimber was illustrative of the little against big, old against new... Dont be a dick. 

You mean, a know-it-all? As opposed to a know-nothing? Literally?

- DSK

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5 hours ago, Repastinate Tom said:

If those desperate people don't adopt labor laws that are acceptable in the US, we should probably use a tariff to make sure they don't have jobs at all.

That is the idea here, is it not?

 

No

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56 minutes ago, warbird said:

I tossed a number, should I have said more than 500 years.  The mimber was illustrative of the little against big, old against new... Dont be a dick. 

Doubling down on the stupid. Nice.

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20 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Well, I agree in principle, however, EVEN if China and India had the same enviro and labor standards, it's hard to argue that the cost of labor would be the same. US has what, 3% unemployment? What level of education, again, in general? Do you think it would hard to find labor in China/India for 1/5th US rates? How about Vietnam, Angola? Face it, there are places with lots of young people without jobs who will work for less than in the US.

I don’t know.  First we have some unresolved unknowns.  While there is a 3% unemployment wage that is a cooked number. Workforce participation is in the 60’s. Second, we don’t know what will happen if all countries have the same level of care, safety, etc for all citizens.  In an “almost Bernie” world, all counties have basic health care for all citizens, there are OSHA like standards for all workers and salaries are equal based on cost of living in that country. In that beautiful world, US health care costs go down, and there are no longer economic refugees. 

But it that will not happen in my children’s lifetime. Until then we should have this standard tariff that says is you treat your workers as consumables - tariff, you trash the environment - big tariff.  Yes this will stick it to the consumer on prices. But it is our last chance to on-shore manufacturing.   

Next time you are in Lowe’s or Home Depot, look at the light bulb aisle. Almost 100% come from one country.   Imagine if they get upset and decide to turnoff our supply of bulbs.   Kinda funny, in a sick way. 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Snore said:

I don’t know.  First we have some unresolved unknowns.  While there is a 3% unemployment wage that is a cooked number. Workforce participation is in the 60’s. Second, we don’t know what will happen if all countries have the same level of care, safety, etc for all citizens.  In an “almost Bernie” world, all counties have basic health care for all citizens, there are OSHA like standards for all workers and salaries are equal based on cost of living in that country. In that beautiful world, US health care costs go down, and there are no longer economic refugees. 

But it that will not happen in my children’s lifetime. Until then we should have this standard tariff that says is you treat your workers as consumables - tariff, you trash the environment - big tariff.  Yes this will stick it to the consumer on prices. But it is our last chance to on-shore manufacturing.   

Next time you are in Lowe’s or Home Depot, look at the light bulb aisle. Almost 100% come from one country.   Imagine if they get upset and decide to turnoff our supply of bulbs.   Kinda funny, in a sick way. 

 

 

 

Agree on the labor/enviro standard tariffs but has nothing to do with onshoring of jobs. Why do you hate capitalism? 

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3 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Agree on the labor/enviro standard tariffs but has nothing to do with onshoring of jobs. Why do you hate capitalism? 

I love capitalism done fairly. I am a devout R, averaged one union grievance per year (none lost unintentionally).   Still not sure about Donnie, but that is another topic. 

I have an issue with loading a gun, cocking the trigger and handing it to my enemy because he seems like a nice guy.  

What has happened since the mid 80’s is NOT capitalism.  

 

Morally, it is just wrong to do business  in some of these countries where it is close to slave labor. 

CEO’s have forgotten the lessons of the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s.  If they take a reasonable salary, let the money trickle down to the workers, they will build a strong middle class.  A strong middle class will buy more “stuff”, more “stuff” means they buy bigger houses.   The demand for “stuff” and housing drove a very strong economy. 

Now we have CEOs that make enough money in one year to create an endowment that would be enough for all of us a-holes for the rest of our lives. 

 

Our current situation is not capitalism, it  begins to look like oligarchy.  

 

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11 minutes ago, Snore said:

I don’t know.  First we have some unresolved unknowns.  While there is a 3% unemployment wage that is a cooked number. Workforce participation is in the 60’s. Second, we don’t know what will happen if all countries have the same level of care, safety, etc for all citizens.  

:unsure: if your party, Republican, sets the tax code up to favor capital and passive capital and mothers that don't work and family caregivers you can't really complain about workforce participation.

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7 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

:unsure: if your party, Republican, sets the tax code up to favor capital and passive capital and mothers that don't work and family caregivers you can't really complain about workforce participation.

Ahhhh- I didn’t complain.  The unemployment rate has been a cooked number for years.  Somewhere between the unemployment number and 1-workforce participation number is the real unemployment rate.   

Speaking to the original discussion- there are people left in the US who need real jobs.    

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2 hours ago, Snore said:

I love capitalism done fairly. I am a devout R, averaged one union grievance per year (none lost unintentionally).   Still not sure about Donnie, but that is another topic. 

I have an issue with loading a gun, cocking the trigger and handing it to my enemy because he seems like a nice guy.  

What has happened since the mid 80’s is NOT capitalism.  

 

Morally, it is just wrong to do business  in some of these countries where it is close to slave labor. 

CEO’s have forgotten the lessons of the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s.  If they take a reasonable salary, let the money trickle down to the workers, they will build a strong middle class.  A strong middle class will buy more “stuff”, more “stuff” means they buy bigger houses.   The demand for “stuff” and housing drove a very strong economy. 

Now we have CEOs that make enough money in one year to create an endowment that would be enough for all of us a-holes for the rest of our lives. 

 

Our current situation is not capitalism, it  begins to look like oligarchy.  

 

I find sentence #2 completely incongruous with the other statements.

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3 hours ago, Snore said:

...    ...

Our current situation is not capitalism, it  begins to look like oligarchy.  

 

Plutocracy, or perhaps a plutocratic autocracy under a veil of managed democracy

It's been done before. Generally doesn't end well.

- DSK

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I find sentence #2 completely incongruous with the other statements.

We have handed the Chinese an economic weapon that is primed and aimed at us.  Apologize for the apparently vague metaphor.

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I think that Krugman's analysis is correct.

There was a time that people who had their hands on production were paid well.

Machines have only made us the most efficient society the world has known.

There is a problem now about the distribution of profits.  It doesn't mean not believing in capitalism.

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8 hours ago, Snore said:

I don’t know.  First we have some unresolved unknowns.  While there is a 3% unemployment wage that is a cooked number. Workforce participation is in the 60’s. Second, we don’t know what will happen if all countries have the same level of care, safety, etc for all citizens.  In an “almost Bernie” world, all counties have basic health care for all citizens, there are OSHA like standards for all workers and salaries are equal based on cost of living in that country. In that beautiful world, US health care costs go down, and there are no longer economic refugees. 

But it that will not happen in my children’s lifetime. Until then we should have this standard tariff that says is you treat your workers as consumables - tariff, you trash the environment - big tariff.  Yes this will stick it to the consumer on prices. But it is our last chance to on-shore manufacturing.   

Next time you are in Lowe’s or Home Depot, look at the light bulb aisle. Almost 100% come from one country.   Imagine if they get upset and decide to turnoff our supply of bulbs.   Kinda funny, in a sick way. 

 

 

 

Why would America want these jobs back?

The whole point of moving jobs offshore is that they get replaced by industries/jobs that better suit the economic conditions of the country doing the offshoring.

 

Once again, you have been let down by the managers of these companies. Rather than using the benefits of offshoring, and investment in new businesses and new tech, they took the money and run. Long term evolution has been currupted by short term profit taking.

Luckily the masses are happy to pay the price, hey?

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7 hours ago, Snore said:

We have handed the Chinese an economic weapon that is primed and aimed at us.  Apologize for the apparently vague metaphor.

No, the part where you say you’re a devout R, and then go on to advocate things that are completely not R.

 

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4 hours ago, Raz'r said:

No, the part where you say you’re a devout R, and then go on to advocate things that are completely not R.

 

I am a centrist “R”.  I refuse to change to team “D” because Dems have gone too far left.  

 

Thinking of starting new political party Grumpy Old Guys In the Middle or GOGIM. Gogim will act the way we have always acted, the responsible parent in the room.   The party will always take a middle compromise position to keep the children on the far left and right under control.  

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8 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Why would America want these jobs back?

The whole point of moving jobs offshore is that they get replaced by industries/jobs that better suit the economic conditions of the country doing the offshoring.

 

Once again, you have been let down by the managers of these companies. Rather than using the benefits of offshoring, and investment in new businesses and new tech, they took the money and run. Long term evolution has been currupted by short term profit taking.

Luckily the masses are happy to pay the price, hey?

 

Ease, I respectfully submit that your answer is unduly theoretical.  It assumes is that the workforce is fungible.  To assume that the person who is a third generation automaker or foundry person can transition to a high-tech job, is simply not realistic.  It also assumes that the new factory making high tech widgets will be in the same area as the foundry.  Or that people can afford to and are willing to relocate.  That is also unlikely.

 

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2 hours ago, Snore said:

I am a centrist “R”.  I refuse to change to team “D” because Dems have gone too far left.  

 

Thinking of starting new political party Grumpy Old Guys In the Middle or GOGIM. Gogim will act the way we have always acted, the responsible parent in the room.   The party will always take a middle compromise position to keep the children on the far left and right under control.  

Well, as long as the Republican politicians can count on your vote, they will continue to not give a fuck what you think

Why should they?

Ever trained a dog? What would a dog behave like, if you gave them a treat no matter they did?

- DSK

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3 hours ago, Snore said:

I am a centrist “R”.  I refuse to change to team “D” because Dems have gone too far left.  

 

Thinking of starting new political party Grumpy Old Guys In the Middle or GOGIM. Gogim will act the way we have always acted, the responsible parent in the room.   The party will always take a middle compromise position to keep the children on the far left and right under control.  

There are no centrist Rs. Not saying you should be a D, but Biden is damn close to what used to be  centrist R

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Well, as long as the Republican politicians can count on your vote, they will continue to not give a fuck what you think

Why should they?

Ever trained a dog? What would a dog behave like, if you gave them a treat no matter they did?

- DSK

The greedy little fuck would be Tripping my legs looking for more. Good analogy.

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5 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

There are no centrist Rs. Not saying you should be a D, but Biden is damn close to what used to be  centrist R

Well skippy you found one- like centrist D’s I am an endangered species

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Well, as long as the Republican politicians can count on your vote, they will continue to not give a fuck what you think

Why should they?

Ever trained a dog? What would a dog behave like, if you gave them a treat no matter they did?

- DSK

You assume I vote like most a-holes, straight party line.   As my other posts in this cesspool have indicated, I vote what I think is right- not by team.  

 

As as stated above, I am an endangered species.   

 

Join GOGIM- the only political party with a brain!!!

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On 9/6/2019 at 12:02 PM, Raz'r said:

Steve Jobs had a famous meeting when he was reinstated at Apple. After a parade of product ideas, all aimed at Microsoft, he stopped the meeting 

Paraphrasing “for Apple to succeed does not mean Microsoft must fail”

i think the same should be said for the US and China. 

 

I agree, but that's not how Trump operates.  You are only "winning", if the other side is "losing"..

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4 hours ago, Snore said:

You assume I vote like most a-holes, straight party line.   As my other posts in this cesspool have indicated, I vote what I think is right- not by team.  

 

As as stated above, I am an endangered species.   

 

Join GOGIM- the only political party with a brain!!!

I’m sure we’ll hear all about your campaign support for Biden. 

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6 hours ago, Snore said:

You assume I vote like most a-holes, straight party line.   As my other posts in this cesspool have indicated, I vote what I think is right- not by team.  

 

As as stated above, I am an endangered species.   

 

Join GOGIM- the only political party with a brain!!!

My mistake. However you said that you would not consider voting Democrat because "they're so leftist" so it was a reasonable assumption based on your own words.

If you could make the name GROGIM then your party would have my enthusiastic support

- DSK

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7 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

I agree, but that's not how Trump operates.  You are only "winning", if the other side is "losing"..

Why should the US worry about whether or  not China is winning

 That is China's problem to figure out how to win fairly. Trump's actions seem to be aimed at "fair". 

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17 hours ago, Snore said:

 

Ease, I respectfully submit that your answer is unduly theoretical.  It assumes is that the workforce is fungible.  To assume that the person who is a third generation automaker or foundry person can transition to a high-tech job, is simply not realistic.  It also assumes that the new factory making high tech widgets will be in the same area as the foundry.  Or that people can afford to and are willing to relocate.  That is also unlikely.

 

Unduly theoretical?

Tell that to buggy whip makers.

There are people working in industries now, that were considered fantasy 100 years ago.

If you don't evolve, don't progress, you are fucked.

If you actively fight against evolution and progression, you are doubly fucked.

As an example, do you think fossil fuels and internal combustion engines are the future? If not, why are we still investigating in them?

 

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6 hours ago, warbird said:

 That is China's problem to figure out how to win fairly. Trump's actions seem to be aimed at "fair". 

And the taxes Raz'r and most TeamD Presidential contenders want to see are also allegedly aimed at "fair."

Trump wants to tax our way to prosperity.

TeamD wants to tax our way to Utopia, or so it seems.

We can't even agree on what are fair labor or environmental laws within our borders and we're going to use taxes on our consumers to get other countries to pass them? Because "child slavery?"

I have little faith that TeamD tariffs would be any different than Trump's: just a slightly different propaganda campaign to support essentially the same foot-shooting contest. And if child slavery is really the problem, does changing the price a bit make that OK?

Trump has managed to get a few TeamD types to say a few things in favor of free trade but it goes against their grain and against lots of union $peech. His big accomplishment has been to make tariffs a Duopoly thing, adopted wholesale by former free traders in TeamR.

And no, I don't think that's getting anything right.

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On 9/6/2019 at 1:37 PM, Raz'r said:

A tariff to equalize the cost disadvantage of say, clean water is totally legit.

A tariff to punish a country that has cheaper labor rate? The height of stupidity, as all it does is punish your own consumers.

You obviously don’t understand the details of what is happening.   Wages differences are a single and relatively small contributor to the issue.

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2 minutes ago, Repastinate Tom said:

And the taxes Raz'r and most TeamD Presidential contenders want to see are also allegedly aimed at "fair."

Trump wants to tax our way to prosperity.

TeamD wants to tax our way to Utopia, or so it seems.

We can't even agree on what are fair labor or environmental laws within our borders and we're going to use taxes on our consumers to get other countries to pass them? Because "child slavery?"

I have little faith that TeamD tariffs would be any different than Trump's: just a slightly different propaganda campaign to support essentially the same foot-shooting contest. And if child slavery is really the problem, does changing the price a bit make that OK?

Trump has managed to get a few TeamD types to say a few things in favor of free trade but it goes against their grain and against lots of union $peech. His big accomplishment has been to make tariffs a Duopoly thing, adopted wholesale by former free traders in TeamR.

And no, I don't think that's getting anything right.

Buy products made elsewhere and avoid the so-called tax. No big deal. 

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2 minutes ago, Rok Dog said:

Buy products made elsewhere and avoid the so-called tax. No big deal. 

Leave me alone to make my own buying decisions without what anyone would call a tax. No big deal.

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3 hours ago, Repastinate Tom said:

Leave me alone to make my own buying decisions without what anyone would call a tax. No big deal.

Just make sure you don't buy anything you can't load on the back of your mule and carry home thru the woods, because there won't be any paved roads or electricity or...

No big deal

- DSK

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4 hours ago, Repastinate Tom said:

And the taxes Raz'r and most TeamD Presidential contenders want to see are also allegedly aimed at "fair."

Trump wants to tax our way to prosperity.

TeamD wants to tax our way to Utopia, or so it seems.

We can't even agree on what are fair labor or environmental laws within our borders and we're going to use taxes on our consumers to get other countries to pass them? Because "child slavery?"

I have little faith that TeamD tariffs would be any different than Trump's: just a slightly different propaganda campaign to support essentially the same foot-shooting contest. And if child slavery is really the problem, does changing the price a bit make that OK?

Trump has managed to get a few TeamD types to say a few things in favor of free trade but it goes against their grain and against lots of union $peech. His big accomplishment has been to make tariffs a Duopoly thing, adopted wholesale by former free traders in TeamR.

And no, I don't think that's getting anything right.

Go ahead and put words in my mouth but my proposal is nothing to do with “fair”

ive stayed countless times before, yet you still do not choose to listen

the US has decided that a relatively clean environment and some sort of labor standards are important. You can debate the extent but you cannot argue that regulatory regimes exist. Businesses have found they can outsource pollution and shit labor practices. All I see as a use for tariffs is to apply a proxy for the overhead of us enviro and labor laws so that those are not the reason to outsource.

tell me why you think this is a redistribution scheme? 

 

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8 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Unduly theoretical?

Tell that to buggy whip makers.

 

 

I believe your example is invalid. Buggy whip demand dropped with the advent of the horseless carriage.  The examples I gave are manufacturers of products that still have demand and will continue to have a demand for some time to come. 

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6 hours ago, Repastinate Tom said:

Leave me alone to make my own buying decisions without what anyone would call a tax. No big deal.

what anyone would call a tax? :lol:

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15 hours ago, Snore said:

 

I believe your example is invalid. Buggy whip demand dropped with the advent of the horseless carriage.  The examples I gave are manufacturers of products that still have demand and will continue to have a demand for some time to come. 

People still ride horses.....

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18 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Go ahead and put words in my mouth but my proposal is nothing to do with “fair”

ive stayed countless times before, yet you still do not choose to listen

the US has decided that a relatively clean environment and some sort of labor standards are important.

OK, why are those things important?

On 9/6/2019 at 2:37 PM, Raz'r said:

A tariff to equalize the cost disadvantage of say, clean water is totally legit.

A tariff to punish a country that has cheaper labor rate? The height of stupidity, as all it does is punish your own consumers.

Equalizing disadvantages sounds at least sorta related to fairness.

18 hours ago, Raz'r said:

the US has decided that a relatively clean environment and some sort of labor standards are important. You can debate the extent but you cannot argue that regulatory regimes exist. Businesses have found they can outsource pollution and shit labor practices. All I see as a use for tariffs is to apply a proxy for the overhead of us enviro and labor laws so that those are not the reason to outsource.

Trump wants to tax our way to prosperity.

TeamD wants to tax our way to Utopia, or so it seems.

Our environmental and labor laws are beneficial, are they not? They're also the kinds of laws that wealthy people can afford.

I don't share your faith that politicians and bureaucrats (and protectionist union $peaker$) can or will fine-tune tax policy to offset the costs (but not benefits) of our laws. Every tax has at least two political constituencies and the noi$y ones are the ones where the benefits are concentrated.

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19 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Just make sure you don't buy anything you can't load on the back of your mule and carry home thru the woods, because there won't be any paved roads or electricity or...

No big deal

- DSK

and

16 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

what anyone would call a tax? :lol:

Just having a bit of fun with Rok's apparent denial that taxes are taxes in this post:

 

23 hours ago, Rok Dog said:

Buy products made elsewhere and avoid the so-called tax. No big deal. 

 

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1 hour ago, Repastinate Tom said:

OK, why are those things important?

Equalizing disadvantages sounds at least sorta related to fairness.

Trump wants to tax our way to prosperity.

TeamD wants to tax our way to Utopia, or so it seems.

Our environmental and labor laws are beneficial, are they not? They're also the kinds of laws that wealthy people can afford.

I don't share your faith that politicians and bureaucrats (and protectionist union $peaker$) can or will fine-tune tax policy to offset the costs (but not benefits) of our laws. Every tax has at least two political constituencies and the noi$y ones are the ones where the benefits are concentrated.

keep dancing if you'd like. It's nothing to do with fairness. We either care about the environment and labor standards, or we don't.

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3 hours ago, Repastinate Tom said:

OK, why are those things important?

Really?

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23 hours ago, Raz'r said:

keep dancing if you'd like. It's nothing to do with fairness. We either care about the environment and labor standards, or we don't.

Is there some evidence that taxing our citizens to show our concern actually does anything to alter policy in the target countries?

My thought is that as people get wealthier, they demand environmental quality and better working conditions. Much like we did here. Taxes act like a brake and would slow that process down.

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1 hour ago, Repastinate Tom said:

Is there some evidence that taxing our citizens to show our concern actually does anything to alter policy in the target countries?

My thought is that as people get wealthier, they demand environmental quality and better working conditions. Much like we did here. Taxes act like a brake and would slow that process down.

I'm sorry you don't understand simple concepts - if it changes a countries behavior, that's good, but not the point. The point is to not make enviro/labor law regulations the cause of a price differential. There are many other reasons for labor cost differential. Enviro/labor laws shouldnt be.

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The Pride of the GOP definitely got something right. Chickenhawk Bolton back to Foxy News where his bullshit is slightly removed from the levers of power that send other people’s kids to die. 

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4 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I'm sorry you don't understand simple concepts - if it changes a countries behavior, that's good, but not the point. The point is to not make enviro/labor law regulations the cause of a price differential. There are many other reasons for labor cost differential. Enviro/labor laws shouldnt be.

It is probably me being dense - but, I don't think I understand what you intend w/that last comment - could you expound a bit? 

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6 hours ago, Repastinate Tom said:

My thought is that as people get wealthier, they demand environmental quality and better working conditions.

people in the developing world don't demand environmental quality and better working conditions? damn, that's a fucking stupid position thats shows an absurd amount of gross historical ignorance even for you tomballs. I can see the Reason article you'll shitpost next "How big government killed Ormolu: the case for loosening mercury emission laws"

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4 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

It is probably me being dense - but, I don't think I understand what you intend w/that last comment - could you expound a bit? 

I can try...

we, in the US, through our representatives have decided that clean enviro, and decent labor standards are important enough that we’ll pay extra.Those standards cost companies extra in manufacturing and the costs are passed on.

Companies have found that they can avoid these extra costs by outsourcing manufacturing. So the US loses the jobs and the environmental-damages and labor conflict are just moved somewhere else

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

I can try...

we, in the US, through our representatives have decided that clean enviro, and decent labor standards are important enough that we’ll pay extra.Those standards cost companies extra in manufacturing and the costs are passed on.

Companies have found that they can avoid these extra costs by outsourcing manufacturing. So the US loses the jobs and the environmental-damages and labor conflict are just moved somewhere else

I was nowhere near that in what I was thinking - thanks for taking the time to clarify.  So to paraphrase, your comment that environmental and labor laws shouldn't be the differentiation wasn't intended to mean that those things don't influence manufacturing costs, but, that those costs shouldn't be avoided simply to pass the risks that come from the lack of those protections off to some other place.   

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