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Sol Rosenberg

Banning Vaping?

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ban no , subject to the same restrictions as smoking , yes .

why , because at the end of the day nicotine is the object .

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Personally, I find it just as obnoxious as smoking tobacco in my presence. My wife does both, at least I have convinced her to only smoke tobacco outside the house. Vaping may take some time.... But If she keeps "losing" her E-cigs, it might help.....

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2 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

I'm amazed the CDC comes out and proposes a ban on vaping with six deaths while being silent on guns.

The vaping industry doesn’t have a Constitutional Amendment, a cowboy culture, hundreds of years of tradition, and a well funded lobbying organization.

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3 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

I'm amazed the CDC comes out and proposes a ban on vaping with six deaths while being silent on guns.

The NRA doesn't represent the nicotine dealers..... Just the Gun dealers.

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1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Should we ban vaping, why or why not?

Yes and no. The candy flavored toxins are obviously not relavent to offering an alternative to smoking that I see claimed everyday in my local paper. Candied nicotine is as bad or worse than hard lemonade. Leave kids alone.

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Please, yes.  

Let the grey, pasty-faced smokers commit slow motion suicide and stop pushing nicotine out to kids.   

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9 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

The vaping industry doesn’t have a Constitutional Amendment, a cowboy culture, hundreds of years of tradition, and a well funded lobbying organization.

All that is true, can you imagine if nicotine had an NRA? we would still see smoking in restaurants.

8 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

The NRA doesn't represent the nicotine dealers..... Just the Gun dealers.

The rest of the world is so much more advanced than we are in many ways. After we killed off a large segment of the world's population, they became wiser and now places like Hong Kong, are proposing an outright ban on vaping.

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1 minute ago, badlatitude said:

All that is true, can you imagine if nicotine had an NRA? we would still see smoking in restaurants.

The rest of the world is so much more advanced than we are in many ways. After we killed off a large segment of the world's population, they became wiser and now places like Hong Kong, are proposing an outright ban on vaping.

In restaurants.  Hell, in hospital rooms

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2 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

In restaurants.  Hell, in hospital rooms

Remember smoking on airplanes? I hated that with a passion.

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2 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Remember smoking on airplanes? I hated that with a passion.

 

I most certainly do.  Then the airlines had a smoking and no smoking section.  Same cabin.  Sitting in the last row of no smoking was no better than sitting in the smoking section.

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WTF? Nothing like destroying your own son's confidence at 12 years old. True or not, it sure puts the focus needing therapy after a press gaggle with Trump.

"During an Oval Office gaggle with the press, Trump was asked about the crackdown on vaping after the government announced that deaths had been linked to the practice.

The president said that he viewed vaping as a source of American jobs before mentioning First Lady Melania Trump, who was sitting beside him.

“That’s how the First Lady got involved,” Trump explained. “She’s got a son — together — that is a beautiful young man and she feels very, very strongly about it.”

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/09/his-frontal-lobe-is-melting-donald-trump-labeled-lousy-dad-after-he-says-melania-has-a-son/

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1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Should we ban vaping, why or why not?

If I understand it right, vaping is just another form of administering nicotine, a highly addictive drug.  Tobacco companies took advantage of that addiction.  Why are we still debating this?

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34 minutes ago, Jules said:

If I understand it right, vaping is just another form of administering nicotine, a highly addictive drug.  Tobacco companies took advantage of that addiction.  Why are we still debating this?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/11/trump-to-consider-e-cigarette-policy-amid-outbreak-of-lung-disease.html

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6 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Please, yes.  

Let the grey, pasty-faced smokers commit slow motion suicide and stop pushing nicotine out to kids.   

Fuck off. 

You make me laugh, don't tell me you dont go all weak with rage when junkies are gaoled for victimless crimes.

 

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1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:

Fuck off. 

You make me laugh, don't tell me you dont go all weak with rage when junkies are gaoled for victimless crimes.

 

Y'know victimless crimes have a strange way of supporting very dangerous/illegal industries?

 

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6 hours ago, Jules said:

If I understand it right, vaping is just another form of administering nicotine, a highly addictive drug.  Tobacco companies took advantage of that addiction.  Why are we still debating this?

Ever wonder why they never kicked up a stink about patches? 

Pump 3x your cig habit into your bloodstream and see what happens when you quit the patches.

Nicotine is pretty easy to quit, the social side and psychological side is another matter, and vaping discourages neither.

Beside looking really stupid.

 

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4 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Y'know victimless crimes have a strange way of supporting very dangerous/illegal industries?

 

um..yeah. That's why all "illicit drugs" should be decriminalised...or..even legalised.

He called me pasty faced and told me to die slowly. I hate hate hate self righteous anti smoking "warriors" even more than people that rant about recycling slip printer paper...(don't ask :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

um..yeah. That's why all "illicit drugs" should be decriminalised...or..even legalised.

He called me pasty faced and told me to die slowly. I hate hate hate self righteous anti smoking "warriors" even more than people that rant about recycling slip printer paper...(don't ask :rolleyes:

OK so you're a smoker. You don't want to quit.

You *are* dying slowly and stinking while you do so.

I quit smoking 40 years ago, it wasn't easy, breaking all the social habits took 2 years.

It was worth it. Smokers have NFI just how bad they smell, aside from their health hit. I won't willingly have a smoker in my house or boat.

Vaping - dunno. Preferable to smoking I guess, banning it? Probably pointless. A nicotine addiction fed by patches or maybe vaping has to be an improvement over smoking.

FKT

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16 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

OK so you're a smoker. You don't want to quit.

You *are* dying slowly and stinking while you do so.

I quit smoking 40 years ago, it wasn't easy, breaking all the social habits took 2 years.

It was worth it. Smokers have NFI just how bad they smell, aside from their health hit. I won't willingly have a smoker in my house or boat.

Vaping - dunno. Preferable to smoking I guess, banning it? Probably pointless. A nicotine addiction fed by patches or maybe vaping has to be an improvement over smoking.

FKT

another one.

The ONLY place I smoke is in the privacy of my own outside balcony. so fuck off. Most people at work are surprised when I tell them I'm a smoker, so obviously I don't smell of smoke, nor are my teeth green and I only have 6 fingers on ONE hand.

I sing contralto in a very good choir and can swim to the end of brighton pier and back. But I'm a puffer not an inhaler.

I've smoked for 40 years, quitting when pregnant obviously. Cut down from 20 to ten a day about 5 years ago...we try.

I won't defend the habit, it's an expensive and stupid ADDICTION  and I'd go as far as saying a possession. 

I can quit as soon as I step on a plane for weeks..pick em up as soon as I get home. 

Self righteous twats don't help...they actually don't want to help..every smoker that quits diminishes their claim to being one of the chosen few.

 

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9 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Should we ban vaping, why or why not?

No because vaping is safer than smoking and helps smokers to quit.

 

1 hour ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Y'know victimless crimes have a strange way of supporting very dangerous/illegal industries?

 

It's not strange, it's just prohibition again. Dangerous because of the illegality. Still stupid. And harmful.
 

Quote

 

According to a new report on patients in Illinois and Wisconsin who experienced severe respiratory illnesses after vaping, 83 percent admitted using black-market cannabis products. While 17 percent said they had used nicotine only, some of them may have been reluctant to admit using illegal drugs, and it's not clear that any of them were using standard e-cigarettes.

These findings cast further doubt on the wisdom of general warnings about "vaping" and "e-cigarettes," which imply that legal nicotine products are implicated in these cases. Such warnings may encourage former smokers who are now vaping to start smoking again, a decision that exposes them to much greater health risks.

The new study, reported Friday in The New England Journal of Medicine, focused on 53 patients who had vaped within 90 days of their symptoms, typically within the previous week. Their median age was 19, and nearly a third were younger than 18. Among the 41 patients who were "extensively interviewed," 80 percent reported using THC products, 7 percent mentioned CBD products, and 17 percent said they had vaped nicotine only. The authors note that "information on product use is based on reports by the patients, and patients may be reluctant to report illicit drug use."

 

In other words, the health hazards causing the current panic are the result of cannabis prohibition.

More on the public health aspect
 

Quote

 

Yet in terms of numbers and health consequences, the main impact of the ban will be felt by the millions of adults who have used e-cigarettes to quit smoking. Those adult vapers overwhelmingly prefer the flavors that the FDA plans to ban, and many of them, deprived of the products they are now using, are apt to start smoking again, dramatically increasing the health risks they face. The upshot will be more smoking-related disease and death.

Since selling e-cigarettes to minors is already illegal, a more reasonable approach would have been to improve enforcement of age restrictions. Companies such as Juul, the leading e-cigarette maker, have already taken steps in that direction through robust age verification. If some retailers are still selling e-cigarettes to minors, a logical response would have been to crack down on them. Instead the Trump administration is depriving adults of potentially lifesaving products that seem to be nearly twice as effective in facilitating smoking cessation as alternatives such as nicotine gum and patches.

The FDA has repeatedly acknowledged the enormous harm-reducing potential of e-cigarettes. Former FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb openly agonized about the tradeoff between broad restrictions aimed at preventing underage consumption and the interests of smokers who want to quit or have already done so with the help of e-cigarettes. This decision gives no weight to those interests. The only consolation is that Trump's announcement takes the shine off Michael Bloomberg's latest crusade.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Repastinate Tom said:

No because vaping is safer than smoking and helps smokers to quit.

 

It's not strange, it's just prohibition again. Dangerous because of the illegality. Still stupid. And harmful.
 

In other words, the health hazards causing the current panic are the result of cannabis prohibition.

More on the public health aspect
 

 

I've known a few vapers. non of them have lasted more than a year.

I quit using hypnotherapy..for a year. I quit when I was pregnant...for a year. twice.

It;s not the nicotine its the psychological addiction that stops people quitting.

My husband was a 70 a day guy. He quit for 5 years cold turkey..and started again when my son was diagnosed with a condition that could have his leg amputated. It killed him age 53. I bloody well wish they would prohibit tobacco.

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Just now, NotTrueWind said:

somebody had sex with you?

Nah...immaculate conception.

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A former smoker, I cannot stand to be in the same room or even down wind of a smoker now.

Have you ever noticed that the smoker is always upwind of you.

Vaping is a waste of time,  decide and quit.

You are replacing a tobacco company with a vaping company, some other fucker is making the money......

But a good cigar every so now and then......but it might be years between them.

OTOH Not true is obviously incapable of a meaningful relationship or he's a troll which is essentially the same thing.

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25 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

. I bloody well wish they would prohibit tobacco.

You want the government to tell you to stop doing something you choose to do? 

And you post on an 'anarchist' site?

Oxymoronic genius.

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37 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

I bloody well wish they would prohibit tobacco.

Because that policy is working so well on cannabis?

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2 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

um..yeah. That's why all "illicit drugs" should be decriminalised...or..even legalised.

He called me pasty faced and told me to die slowly. I hate hate hate self righteous anti smoking "warriors" even more than people that rant about recycling slip printer paper...(don't ask :rolleyes:

Put me down as one of those anti smoker heathen.

You know it kills yet you still smoke?

Ever seen someone die of lung cancer? It's bad, really bad.

 

As for decriminalising. What do you do about the fuckers robbing your house to get cash to buy their legal drugs? What about the ones who spend their dole on drugs while the kids lay in a 3 day old nappy?

It's bigger than average joe having a joint at home while watching rage...

 

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16 minutes ago, Se7en said:

You want the government to tell you to stop doing something you choose to do? 

And you post on an 'anarchist' site?

Oxymoronic genius.

you don't understand addiction do you?. I pity anyone close to you that suffers from an addiction.

Smoking is insidious, it doesn't make you rob pensioners, it doesn't seem to do you much harm (for years) It doesn't impair your ability to work.It doesn't destroy families.So unlike other addictions the cigarette addict doesn't get that impetus to stop.   yet it's harder to quit than heroin. It's a devil in your head that overides all your good intentions. And prats like you are the worst.

People focus on the nicotine, Nicotine clears your system in about 4 days.

It's something else deep in the psyche...literally another entity that asks the cashier for that packet, literally another persona that tells you, after you've easily quit for weeks..that "one won't hurt" and you'll throw the packet away. and you do..the first time. 

 

No one reasonable tells a heroin or Ice addict that they Choose their addiction. Reasonable people understand that there is more to addiction than simple choice. 

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2 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

As for decriminalising. What do you do about the fuckers robbing your house to by their legal drugs?

We could try making stealing illegal.

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30 minutes ago, Repastinate Tom said:

Because that policy is working so well on cannabis?

How many people you murdered Tom? You anti prohibition champion, you.

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4 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

you don't understand addiction do you?. I pity anyone close to you that suffers from an addiction.

Smoking is insidious, it doesn't make you rob pensioners, it doesn't seem to do you much harm (for years) It doesn't impair your ability to work.It doesn't destroy families.So unlike other addictions the cigarette addict doesn't get that impetus to stop.   yet it's harder to quit than heroin. It's a devil in your head that overides all your good intentions. And prats like you are the worst.

People focus on the nicotine, Nicotine clears your system in about 4 days.

It's something else deep in the psyche...literally another entity that asks the cashier for that packet, literally another persona that tells you, after you've easily quit for weeks..that "one won't hurt" and you'll throw the packet away. and you do..the first time. 

 

No one reasonable tells a heroin or Ice addict that they Choose their addiction. Reasonable people understand that there is more to addiction than simple choice. 

Reasonable people understand breaking an addiction like smoking is fucking hard. But better than dying......

 

 

If LB can stop the masturbating habit, you can stop the smoking habit.......

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2 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Put me down as one of those anti smoker heathen.

You know it kills yet you still smoke?

Ever seen someone die of lung cancer? It's bad, really bad.

 

As for decriminalising. What do you do about the fuckers robbing your house to get cash to buy their legal drugs? What about the ones who spend their dole on drugs while the kids lay in a 3 day old nappy?

It's bigger than average joe having a joint at home while watching rage...

 

It's an old argument. I lived in Amsterdam for a year. Legal drugs are cheaper than illegal ones. Addicts don't rob houses when they can get a prescription for ten dollars.

Clean heroin? you can usually hold down a job. It's the shit the dealers cut it with that makes you sick etc etc etc.

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6 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Well it's prohibited so I'm guessing you all for stealing too.

Not real clear on "victimless" I see.

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2 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

It's an old argument. I lived in Amsterdam for a year. Legal drugs are cheaper than illegal ones. Addicts don't rob houses when they can get a prescription for ten dollars.

Clean heroin? you can usually hold down a job. It's the shit the dealers cut it with that makes you sick etc etc etc.

No. It's the intelligent, professional users like lawyers, doctors and vets that live with their addiction that can usually hold down a job, until they can't.

 

 

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Just now, Repastinate Tom said:

Not real clear on "victimless" I see.

Not understanding the social value of prohibiting anti social behaviour I see.

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15 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Reasonable people understand breaking an addiction like smoking is fucking hard. But better than dying......

yeah well. I'm 60 tomorrow. Time to quit.

It takes a lot of preparation. 

Changing habits, finding something to occupy those "in between task" cigarettes. Finding social outlets etc.

Avoiding the triggers.

Cutting down slowly . I'm down to about 8 a day from 15 over the last year.

So far

I stopped all black coffee in the morning..tea instead

Accepting that voice in your head is NOT your bestie.

Stopped drinking any alcohol at home.

Making a new room in the house (away from my smoking place)

Joined a choir for social outings and, I have to look after my voice

The last will be leaving SA...mostly. too many opportunities to sneak out for a ciggy in between posts. nothing personal.

I might even take up sailing again :D

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5 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Not understanding the social value of prohibiting anti social behaviour I see.

It's only anti-social if you bogart that joint, my friend.

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As for banning Vaping.

No.

Whether it works or not,Vaping is a recognition that you should do something about your habit. I keeps it in the forefront on your mind that smoking is not good.

Certainly the products one vapes should be regulated. 

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25 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

you don't understand addiction do you?. I pity anyone close to you that suffers from an addiction.

Smoking is insidious, it doesn't make you rob pensioners, it doesn't seem to do you much harm (for years) It doesn't impair your ability to work.It doesn't destroy families.So unlike other addictions the cigarette addict doesn't get that impetus to stop.   yet it's harder to quit than heroin. It's a devil in your head that overides all your good intentions. And prats like you are the worst.

Oh, I think I have some understanding. Of course, mine is based on evidence rather than anecdote, so you won't like it. There is a reason that first year medical students are sent to AA meetings, and it's not to gain empathy.

I get that prats like me are the worst, but I do confess a curiosity as to what we are the worst at?

Kinda irrelevant to my point - which was more along the lines of 'why expect the government to do something for you that you are unwilling to do for yourself?'

(I actually don't care one way or the other about smoking.)

The worst psychological addiction I've seen people deal with is biting fingernails. Would you also ask the government to make fingernails illegal?

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27 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

yeah well. I'm 60 tomorrow. Time to quit.

Friday 13th is a good time to go a little wild and make some changes.

Happy Birthday for tomorrow.

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2 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

another one.

The ONLY place I smoke is in the privacy of my own outside balcony. so fuck off. Most people at work are surprised when I tell them I'm a smoker, so obviously I don't smell of smoke, nor are my teeth green and I only have 6 fingers on ONE hand.

I sing contralto in a very good choir and can swim to the end of brighton pier and back. But I'm a puffer not an inhaler.

I've smoked for 40 years, quitting when pregnant obviously. Cut down from 20 to ten a day about 5 years ago...we try.

I won't defend the habit, it's an expensive and stupid ADDICTION  and I'd go as far as saying a possession. 

I can quit as soon as I step on a plane for weeks..pick em up as soon as I get home. 

Self righteous twats don't help...they actually don't want to help..every smoker that quits diminishes their claim to being one of the chosen few.

 

Denial. A river in the desert.....

I know it's hard to quit. It's even harder when you don't want to.

To this day I won't smoke *anything* for fear that my old habit will catch up with me. I do sympathise with people who can't break the addiction, it isn't easy.

You don't inflict your smoke on others, so that's a pass. Lotta people have private habits that aren't socially acceptable. How else did porn become one of the biggest things on the net (not to mention Fauxbook)......

I don't advocate banning smoking because it's pointless. Taxing the hell out of it to the point where it's *just marginally* cheaper & easier to buy legit than black market smokes is the position I favour, plus banning smoking in all public places.

Vaping - ditto.

FKT

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10 hours ago, badlatitude said:

WTF? Nothing like destroying your own son's confidence at 12 years old. True or not, it sure puts the focus needing therapy after a press gaggle with Trump.

"During an Oval Office gaggle with the press, Trump was asked about the crackdown on vaping after the government announced that deaths had been linked to the practice.

The president said that he viewed vaping as a source of American jobs before mentioning First Lady Melania Trump, who was sitting beside him.

“That’s how the First Lady got involved,” Trump explained. “She’s got a son — together — that is a beautiful young man and she feels very, very strongly about it.”

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/09/his-frontal-lobe-is-melting-donald-trump-labeled-lousy-dad-after-he-says-melania-has-a-son/

You know, his interactions with his son have always appeared as "off", to me.  Is it possible that Melania's "got a son", and President Trump was not involved?

 

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

yeah well. I'm 60 tomorrow. Time to quit.

It takes a lot of preparation. 

Changing habits, finding something to occupy those "in between task" cigarettes. Finding social outlets etc.

Avoiding the triggers.

Cutting down slowly . I'm down to about 8 a day from 15 over the last year.

So far

I stopped all black coffee in the morning..tea instead

Accepting that voice in your head is NOT your bestie.

Stopped drinking any alcohol at home.

Making a new room in the house (away from my smoking place)

Joined a choir for social outings and, I have to look after my voice

The last will be leaving SA...mostly. too many opportunities to sneak out for a ciggy in between posts. nothing personal.

I might even take up sailing again :D

I walked around with an empty glass in my hand for about 18 months. The habit of having something to hold was the hardest thing to break.

But food, wine etc all taste so much better. In fact, everything is better.

 

 

Eventually...

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I watched my Mom struggle with her smoking addiction.  After 40 years, she quit.  Still, the damage was done and she died of cancer at age 63.  

I know a bunch of folks who have battled a variety of addictions and most tell me smoking is the hardest to break.  I am certain that social factors are part of that.  But, a physical dependency on nicotine is apparently pretty fucking strong.

Voluntarily inhaling smoke, no matter how it is generated, is unhealthy.  Pretending that vaping is "safer" is folly.

Smoking sucks.

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31 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

You know, his interactions with his son have always appeared as "off", to me.  Is it possible that Melania's "got a son", and President Trump was not involved?

 

With Donald Trump any depravity is possible. The kid does look like a young Trump and is also similar to Eric, so the kid is probably his. How outrageous to say what he did. kids have feelings, even Trump kids.

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6 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

I watched my Mom struggle with her smoking addiction.  After 40 years, she quit.  Still, the damage was done and she died of cancer at age 63.  

I know a bunch of folks who have battled a variety of addictions and most tell me smoking is the hardest to break.  I am certain that social factors are part of that.  But, a physical dependency on nicotine is apparently pretty fucking strong.

Voluntarily inhaling smoke, no matter how it is generated, is unhealthy.  Pretending that vaping is "safer" is folly.

Smoking sucks.

Smoking does suck, but every addiction sucks. What I hated most was when I tried to quit everyone who smoked made it a mission to make sure I didn’t quit. When I finally made up my mind I quit cold turkey and never looked back.

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12 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Smoking does suck, but every addiction sucks. What I hated most was when I tried to quit everyone who smoked made it a mission to make sure I didn’t quit. When I finally made up my mind I quit cold turkey and never looked back.

When I stopped drinking, most of my friends were supportive.  Turns out the few who weren't were wondering about their own habits.  Maybe they didn't want to look into it.

I left them behind and never looked back.  That's their journey. 

Anyone who encourages you to continue with an addiction is poisonous.

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The lung conditions are very similar to early SCUBA days and dive shop with poor compressor refill sets ups and early hookah rigs where there was minuet amounts of oil mist pumped into the tanks and through the hookah rig causing lung issues and deaths.....other than that my main objection is seeing the large clouds of whatever they exhale and silly fools sucking on those devices...

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12 hours ago, Mid said:

ban no , subject to the same restrictions as smoking , yes .

why , because at the end of the day nicotine is the object .

I think that given the recent instances of vaping-related lung illness, that an FDA study is warranted,  and that those findings should inform policy.   Those outcomes might indicate that changes to the vaping content/process/safety regs, and it might indicate that the act of pulling the vapor into your lungs is as harmful as smoking, and should be controlled in the same manner.   IMHO, suggesting a change absent that information isn't the most responsible approach. 

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10 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I think that given the recent instances of vaping-related lung illness, that an FDA study is warranted

You're a bit late, as the link above shows.

FDA Chief Scott Gottlieb Says He Has to Restrict E-Cigarettes in Order to Save Them

Quote

...Yesterday Gottlieb said the FDA would consider additional restrictions on e-cigarettes if the upward trend in underage consumption is not reversed. But today he said he is determined to keep e-cigarettes on the market as a harm-reducing alternative for smokers. "I think there's a tremendous public health opportunity," he said. "These things do have risks associated with them…but certainly not any risks on the same level as combustible products

 

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1 hour ago, Bus Driver said:

Voluntarily inhaling smoke, no matter how it is generated, is unhealthy.  Pretending that vaping is "safer" is folly.

What do you think of methadone for heroin addicts?

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2 minutes ago, Repastinate Tom said:

Color me confused, but, the FDA has already done the impact analysis on lung health?   Not a smoker/vaper ( I do enjoy a nice cigar now and then ) so it's not something I've spent any time familiarizing myself with. 

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4 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Color me confused, but, the FDA has already done the impact analysis on lung health?   Not a smoker/vaper ( I do enjoy a nice cigar now and then ) so it's not something I've spent any time familiarizing myself with. 

This is a quote from Gottlieb:

"These things do have risks associated with them…but certainly not any risks on the same level as combustible products..."

Maybe he made it up?

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3 hours ago, Repastinate Tom said:

Because that policy is working so well on cannabis?

What a wonderfully simplistic and naive view of the world.  I mean, murder is illegal too, but it still happens.  Clearly it's a lost cause.  Just legalize it and be done.

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26 minutes ago, Repastinate Tom said:

What do you think of methadone for heroin addicts?

Why don't you stop playing stupid games and make your statement of what YOU believe so it can be argued?  Rather than this type of passive aggressive baloney?

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1 minute ago, Grrr... said:

Why don't you stop playing stupid games and make your statement of what YOU believe so it can be argued?  Rather than this type of passive aggressive baloney?

Exactly why I refuse to engage with him.  He asks a question, then asks another, taking you down a rabbit hole.  All in some sad attempt to win an internet argument.

It's tedious.

At least he seems to have dialed back on quoting himself.

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I've smoked on and off for my whole life. down to about 4/day now of the lowest nico, lowest chem product I can find. I tried vaping for a while and helped me quit for about a year. 

Like SFB I can quit for a week and then the habit part kicks in. Everyone who smokes knows the risks and knows how stupid it is. Are 4/day killing me? maybe, but something else will kill me sooner. 

No justification, no reason other than I really enjoy a smoke in the morning after work after a race or when having a drink. 

What is really funny is that how few posts it took to make smoking/vaping Trumps fault. The TDS will kill you faster than a few smokes... 

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4 hours ago, Repastinate Tom said:
Quote

 

According to a new report on patients in Illinois and Wisconsin who experienced severe respiratory illnesses after vaping, 83 percent admitted using black-market cannabis products. While 17 percent said they had used nicotine only, some of them may have been reluctant to admit using illegal drugs, and it's not clear that any of them were using standard e-cigarettes.

These findings cast further doubt on the wisdom of general warnings about "vaping" and "e-cigarettes," which imply that legal nicotine products are implicated in these cases. Such warnings may encourage former smokers who are now vaping to start smoking again, a decision that exposes them to much greater health risks.

The new study, reported Friday in The New England Journal of Medicine, focused on 53 patients who had vaped within 90 days of their symptoms, typically within the previous week. Their median age was 19, and nearly a third were younger than 18. Among the 41 patients who were "extensively interviewed," 80 percent reported using THC products, 7 percent mentioned CBD products, and 17 percent said they had vaped nicotine only. The authors note that "information on product use is based on reports by the patients, and patients may be reluctant to report illicit drug use."

 

In other words, the health hazards causing the current panic are the result of cannabis prohibition.

So I vape, not part of the the huge cloud crowd or the nutzo slurpee flavored shit.  I usually go with Chi Tea 3 mg. (the large majority of cigarettes fall between a range of 8 mg and 20mg if you are interested), Reputable shops make their shit with the following:

Propylene Glycol (PG) and/or Vegetable Glycerin (VG) These are the two most common ingredients that you'll find in e liquid since they're used as the suspension agent for the flavorings and nicotine. ... Non-Oil Food Grade Flavorings. ...Nicotine.  It's in a bunch of things we ingest on a daily basis.  It is used in various edible items such as coffee-based drinks, liquid sweeteners, ice cream, whipped dairy products and soda.  

 

Vegetable Glycerin (VG)is used in the following Foods – yogurt, milk, cheese, processed meat, and poultry, Processed Vegetables – dried vegetables, canned vegetables, processed fruit, sauces containing vegetablesGrains and Baked Goods- rice, pudding, breading, precooked rice Beverages- alcoholic beverages, cider, flavored beverages made with water, Sauces- mustard, vinegar, sweeteners, butter, nut butters. 

Smoking them probably changes things a bit, but IMHO it's probably basically harmless as long as you are not drinking 2 gallons of the shit a day.  Everything in moderation right??

So a couple things;

1.  Yes, it is not a Wonderful habit, but it sure as shit beats the hell out of Cigs or cigars or dip to the point that it really, in the grand scheme of things, aint so bad. 

2.  You can vape pretty much anywhere without anyone really knowing (blow it in your shirt or under your coat and there is no trace) unless you are obnoxious and do the big cloud thing, hell you can even do it in your own living room without much of anything bothering anyone, so it's a ton better than the real deal.  

3.  When I was smoking the real deal ( pretty much only when I was drinkin), man the hangovers would suck, now, no hangovers so that's a plus.

4.  As said above, the social aspect of smoking was a big draw and you get that with vaping. 

5.  I could personally go 0 nicotine and down the road and I prob will.  I assume most smokers can only choke down the 12 mg shit for a short while, I did for a week maybe (the kid thought I was a rockstar :) ) then went to 6, then 3 etc, but but I am good for now.  

All that said, what gets me is that the people making the assumptions that all vaping is evil, ether have never smoked, (the angry creamsicle apparently) or have not actually read the info stemming from these recent tragedies(see above) 0 were connected to normal vaping(jule etc), all were related to vaping street juice laced with toxic THC.  I get my shit from a local shop that makes their own from natural ingredients, they are good people and I have no doubt that they are doing what they say, so if done right I can only conclude it is a mostly harmless vice at best, and at worst, is a ton better than smoking the real shit.  But, anyone that smokes home made thc laced shit off the street pretty much checked their brain at the door and is rolling the dice every puff.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Put me down as one of those anti smoker heathen.

You know it kills yet you still smoke?

Ever seen someone die of lung cancer? It's bad, really bad.

 

As for decriminalising. What do you do about the fuckers robbing your house to get cash to buy their legal drugs? What about the ones who spend their dole on drugs while the kids lay in a 3 day old nappy?

It's bigger than average joe having a joint at home while watching rage...

 

I hate smoking as well, and I think that smokers are pathetic.  They are not "living life" or "enjoying a hobby" or anything else.  They only like it because they are addicted to it, and they let smoking run their lives.

However, it is their body and their life.  Want to fuck it up?  I would encourage you not to, but if that is your choice, it is your choice.

Drugs?  If you break into someones house to rob them, go to jail or get shot.  If you neglect your kids, you lose them.

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good God..someone with some common sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

don't get excited, I meant Shags. 

Edited by Shortforbob
pipped

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

What a wonderfully simplistic and naive view of the world.  I mean, murder is illegal too, but it still happens.  Clearly it's a lost cause.  Just legalize it and be done.

Yeah, no difference between being a murderer and a drug addict.  Except, of course, the murderer harms another person.

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1 hour ago, shaggy said:

So I vape, not part of the the huge cloud crowd or the nutzo slurpee flavored shit.  I usually go with Chi Tea 3 mg. (the large majority of cigarettes fall between a range of 8 mg and 20mg if you are interested), Reputable shops make their shit with the following:

Propylene Glycol (PG) and/or Vegetable Glycerin (VG) These are the two most common ingredients that you'll find in e liquid since they're used as the suspension agent for the flavorings and nicotine. ... Non-Oil Food Grade Flavorings. ...Nicotine.  It's in a bunch of things we ingest on a daily basis.  It is used in various edible items such as coffee-based drinks, liquid sweeteners, ice cream, whipped dairy products and soda....  

1. Eat whipped cream.

2. Heat whipped cream in frying pan and inhale the vapors.

I'm no doctor, but I'd say there is a difference.

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1 hour ago, shaggy said:

Smoking them probably changes things a bit, but IMHO it's probably basically harmless as long as you are not drinking 2 gallons of the shit a day.  Everything in moderation right??

so yea, that's why I put this in there my friend... 

Also, Would that not be just like inhaling the vapor from a burning marshmallow around a campfire??  My bet is the smoke from the campfire would be worse than the shouldering Propylene Glycol (PG) and/or Vegetable Glycerin (VG) in said marshmallow.  No??

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2 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

Exactly why I refuse to engage with him.  He asks a question, then asks another, taking you down a rabbit hole.  All in some sad attempt to win an internet argument.

It's tedious.

At least he seems to have dialed back on quoting himself.

dogballs

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8 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Nicotine is pretty easy to quit

 

No it's not. Not for me anyways. Sunflower seeds only go so far.

The problem I have with vaping is it's not studied or regulated like it should be.

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3 minutes ago, austin1972 said:

No it's not. Not for me anyways. Sunflower seeds only go so far.

The problem I have with vaping is it's not studied or regulated like it should be.

I am all for studies and regulation...  My point is if you have never been in an actual vape shop and actually maybe watched the process/tried it how can you regulate it.   I know you guys are going to come up with the tobacco industry got regulated..  Well, I am willing to be that 90% of the senators/house/regulators smoked back in the day, so they knew what they were talking about.  Vaping is soooooooo much different at the lower nic levels.  Like I said, I would be fine with 0 nicotine.   Just like inhaling frigging orange juice...  

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3 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I think that given the recent instances of vaping-related lung illness, that an FDA study is warranted,  and that those findings should inform policy.   Those outcomes might indicate that changes to the vaping content/process/safety regs, and it might indicate that the act of pulling the vapor into your lungs is as harmful as smoking, and should be controlled in the same manner.   IMHO, suggesting a change absent that information isn't the most responsible approach. 

no doubt about it you are an each way bet ;)

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7 minutes ago, shaggy said:

Like I said, I would be fine with 0 nicotine.   Just like inhaling frigging orange juice...  

That's how my buddy quit. He went from low nic to no nic. Now he's done with it all even though he still misses it. 2+ years.

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1 hour ago, shaggy said:

So I vape, not part of the the huge cloud crowd or the nutzo slurpee flavored shit.  I usually go with Chi Tea 3 mg. (the large majority of cigarettes fall between a range of 8 mg and 20mg if you are interested), Reputable shops make their shit with the following:

Propylene Glycol (PG) and/or Vegetable Glycerin (VG) These are the two most common ingredients that you'll find in e liquid since they're used as the suspension agent for the flavorings and nicotine. ... Non-Oil Food Grade Flavorings. ...Nicotine.  It's in a bunch of things we ingest on a daily basis.  It is used in various edible items such as coffee-based drinks, liquid sweeteners, ice cream, whipped dairy products and soda.  

 

Interesting that your rationale makes no distinction between your lungs and your digestive system.  

Lungs which are designed to directly transfer oxygen to the blood stream through thin membranes that filter (and hopefully expel by exhaling) the particulates and the unwanted gases with no mechanism for clearing toxins other than hacking coughs and the Heimlich Maneuver.

versus

The digestive system which is designed to essentially soak various organic substances in enzymes and acids for a day or so before the nutrients in the by-products of the chemical reactions are passed to the blood, all connected to a very complicated system of ridding the body of the generally toxic waste stream via poop, pee and occasionally vomit. 

Sure - I eat it therefore I can breathe it.  Makes complete sense.  

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It's obvious to everybody that vaping can't be good for you.

But vaping has been even worse for "big tobacco". I'll bet that's who are pushing for the ban.

As for the nusiance factor - I don't think it's the clouds that are annoying people. The people who vape are already considered annoying, whether they are vaping or not. Kind of like bans on skateboarding.

Post image

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5 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Interesting that your rationale makes no distinction between your lungs and your digestive system.  

Lungs which are designed to directly transfer oxygen to the blood stream through thin membranes that filter (and hopefully expel by exhaling) the particulates and the unwanted gases with no mechanism for clearing toxins other than hacking coughs and the Heimlich Maneuver.

versus

The digestive system which is designed to essentially soak various organic substances in enzymes and acids for a day or so before the nutrients in the by-products of the chemical reactions are passed to the blood, all connected to a very complicated system of ridding the body of the generally toxic waste stream via poop, pee and occasionally vomit. 

Sure - I eat it therefore I can breathe it.  Makes complete sense.  

Look, I am not saying it is wonderful and/or that everyone that does not vape is a dumshit, nor am I saying that it is a healthy thing or good for anyone.  All I am saying is given the list of vices people have, it takes the place of a big one and is actually better than the alternative.  I would bet that the air you breathe in LA when the smog is in is probably worse than vaping with a few beers a couple nights a week depending on the nic count.  So go forth and procreate, the next gen will figure all this shit out..  :) 

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23 minutes ago, shaggy said:

Look, I am not saying it is wonderful and/or that everyone that does not vape is a dumshit, nor am I saying that it is a healthy thing or good for anyone.  All I am saying is given the list of vices people have, it takes the place of a big one and is actually better than the alternative.  I would bet that the air you breathe in LA when the smog is in is probably worse than vaping with a few beers a couple nights a week depending on the nic count.  So go forth and procreate, the next gen will figure all this shit out..  :) 

Well, in spite of the best efforts of the current Mango-led administration, the air in LA has been improving.  Not that I live and breathe there, because I don't. 

At any rate, I'm not sure that they test the air in LA for heated vapors of Propylene Glycol (PG) and/or Vegetable Glycerin (VG) and the EPA or the FDA haven't run tests on humans (or mice) on those substances, so your bet sill be a hard one to win.  But comparing what you are voluntarily breathing in to LA air seems to show a curious willingness to gamble with your health.  Kind of like deciding to run across a country road blindfolded.  You will probably make it just fine.

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2 hours ago, jzk said:

I hate smoking as well, and I think that smokers are pathetic.  They are not "living life" or "enjoying a hobby" or anything else.  They only like it because they are addicted to it, and they let smoking run their lives.

However, it is their body and their life.  Want to fuck it up?  I would encourage you not to, but if that is your choice, it is your choice.

Drugs?  If you break into someones house to rob them, go to jail or get shot.  If you neglect your kids, you lose them.

And this reflects directly on you, and simply reinforces what people know about you.  It's a habit.  Most people would say a BAD habit.  However, it doesn't suddenly relegate a person who smokes or vapes into the 'pathetic' category.  And the fact that you believe it does meshes wonderfully with Trump's behavior - which is the same.  Disagree and you're an idiot or defective.

I'm sure you have your own vices, and I'm also pretty sure you don't classify them as pathetic.  Hypocrite.  But the irony of this whole thing is that you're not self-aware enough to even understand this post.

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6 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

yeah well. I'm 60 tomorrow. Time to quit.

It takes a lot of preparation. 

Changing habits, finding something to occupy those "in between task" cigarettes. Finding social outlets etc.

Avoiding the triggers.

Cutting down slowly . I'm down to about 8 a day from 15 over the last year.

So far

I stopped all black coffee in the morning..tea instead

Accepting that voice in your head is NOT your bestie.

Stopped drinking any alcohol at home.

Making a new room in the house (away from my smoking place)

Joined a choir for social outings and, I have to look after my voice

The last will be leaving SA...mostly. too many opportunities to sneak out for a ciggy in between posts. nothing personal.

I might even take up sailing again :D

11 days from hitting 60 myself, but not thinking of tossing the "Cope" (wintergreen long-cut) on that mere milestone, I'm going to hold out for something bigger, if only I could think of something...oh wait, I know, isn't there some sort of election thingy coming up next year?

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1 hour ago, Mid said:

no doubt about it you are an each way bet ;)

I'm an engineer - I know that there's always more than one way to look at a problem, and that the appropriate solution has to consider any constraints - schedule, budget, regulatory compliance, materials, technology, etc.   SO - what at first might seem to be THE obvious solution, when considered in the context of the whole problem, may face a constraint that negates that particular solution.   Of course, if you're objective is to pin someone in a box, that binary thinking stuff works well! 

 

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2 hours ago, austin1972 said:

That's how my buddy quit. He went from low nic to no nic. Now he's done with it all even though he still misses it. 2+ years.

My wife quit by burying a new carton of cigarettes at the bottom of our garbage can.  She had bronchitis and wanted a smoke in spite of hacking up phlegm.  She decided that if she was that desperate to have a cigarette that she would go pawing through garbage for one, she was in trouble.  Never smoked again.  But then she has the will power of a determined ox when she wants something.   Far beyond mine.  That wouldn't have worked for me. 

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Maybe we need SOMEBODY to look into what the fuck they are selling? Who would that be? 

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4 hours ago, Grrr... said:

And this reflects directly on you, and simply reinforces what people know about you.  It's a habit.  Most people would say a BAD habit.  However, it doesn't suddenly relegate a person who smokes or vapes into the 'pathetic' category.  And the fact that you believe it does meshes wonderfully with Trump's behavior - which is the same.  Disagree and you're an idiot or defective.

I'm sure you have your own vices, and I'm also pretty sure you don't classify them as pathetic.  Hypocrite.  But the irony of this whole thing is that you're not self-aware enough to even understand this post.

Yeah, it is pathetic that you become a slave to something you don't even really like that is very harmful to you.  I suspect you think that society should provide you health care as well.  And you probably think the tobacco companies are evil for giving you exactly what you asked for.  

Or do you choose it like a glorious sail or a nice prime rib?  I like sailing and prime rib, but if I go a day without them I am not banging my head up against a wall.    

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4 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Well, in spite of the best efforts of the current Mango-led administration, the air in LA has been improving.  Not that I live and breathe there, because I don't. 

At any rate, I'm not sure that they test the air in LA for heated vapors of Propylene Glycol (PG) and/or Vegetable Glycerin (VG) and the EPA or the FDA haven't run tests on humans (or mice) on those substances, so your bet sill be a hard one to win.  But comparing what you are voluntarily breathing in to LA air seems to show a curious willingness to gamble with your health.  Kind of like deciding to run across a country road blindfolded.  You will probably make it just fine.

Well, if the hookers and blow haven't killed me yet, I think I am doing just fine thank you very much.   ;)

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7 hours ago, jzk said:

Yeah, no difference between being a murderer and a drug addict.  Except, of course, the murderer harms another person.

Stand between a junkie and a hit. See who wants to harm who...

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21 minutes ago, shaggy said:

Well, if the hookers and blow haven't killed me yet, I think I am doing just fine thank you very much.   ;)

Said in your best Hunter S Thompson impersonation! 

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6 hours ago, austin1972 said:

That's how my buddy quit. He went from low nic to no nic. Now he's done with it all even though he still misses it. 2+ years.

The habit patterns *do* fade if he hangs in there, but it takes years for sure. In my case, I'd say 5 years before I mostly stopped thinking about it.

I'm pretty sure they're still there, too, just a long way down nowadays.

When I quit, I did it - I quit. None of this tapering off caper. Tried that before, it didn't work for me. It's a right bitch of an addiction and I have great sympathy for those trapped in it. At some level I'm still addicted, I just refuse to use.

Meli needs to consider why AA doesn't have a controlled or tapered drinking option......

FKT

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14 hours ago, Repastinate Tom said:
On 9/11/2019 at 8:20 PM, Sol Rosenberg said:

Should we ban vaping, why or why not?

No because vaping is safer than smoking and helps smokers to quit. 

 

10 hours ago, Grrr... said:

Why don't you stop playing stupid games and make your statement of what YOU believe so it can be argued?  Rather than this type of passive aggressive baloney?

Why don't you read the thread? I started by doing what you ask.

You've contributed gossip about other forum members and no statement of your own position.

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16 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Fuck off. 

You make me laugh, don't tell me you dont go all weak with rage when junkies are gaoled for victimless crimes.

 

I didn't know that librarians so casually tossed out double negatives.  Seems wrong, somehow.

Crimes necessarily have victims.  

Drugs only damage the user until the user is pushed by the demands of their addiction to damage others.  

So the problem with jailing/gaoling drug users is that either society is punishing those who decide that they want to "enjoy" an addiction or society is indulging in preventive detention.  Either is terrible public policy.

Of course...we have to recognize that, as addicts to a demonstrably harmful substance, smokers damage themselves certainly, but also leave a trail of damage behind them.  From the relative triviality of stinking clothes and air to second-hand smoke effects to the trail of medical bills to the harsh reality of grief.  

And, for the record, I've lost two friends to smoking addiction in the last three months.  So don't tell me to fuck off, please.

 

And on the subject of this thread:  Vaping is just trying either to gild a poisonous plant or to squeeze a bit of profit out of quasi-legal drug pushing.

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On 9/12/2019 at 8:53 PM, Left Shift said:

And on the subject of this thread:  Vaping is just trying either to gild a poisonous plant or to squeeze a bit of profit out of quasi-legal drug pushing.

Or to serve a market composed of people who reject Puritan attempts to control their bodies.

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