JojoFruji

R2AK on a beach cat

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Crew weight just shy of 300 lbs

fairly tight budget

18-22 ft range

 

Thanks in advance,

Jack

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Not quite a beach cat, but Reynolds 21 maybe?

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Sorry, I didn’t phrase my question correctly. I am looking for boat recommendations. 

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I am a firm believer that somebody can win this race on a beach cat as, after all, they can be some of the fastest things on the water...

Of course that would require someone (or a team) to be able to push as hard on day 5 as they would on hour 1 (a la M32 a couple of years ago).

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You didn't phase your question at all. But that's o.k

Seems like a Worrell 1000 situation. HFTU and just do it.

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I would look at something with wings; which would allow relaxing an minimize trapeze usage.  The vid is of a Hobie 21 SE; the SC has a built in storage area but is heavier.  I have a Prindle 18-2 that has been modded with wings, something not really all that hard to do on any of the older Dead Cat Society boats from the 1990s and 2000s.  Another consideration for a mod would be to add a y pole on the rear crossbar so you could use a sculling oar; probably more realistic than two conventionally mounted oars.  You could go all out and get an A class cat for super light weight and better speed.  Not sure if it is realistic to put wings on them.  As others have noted beach cats have competed before so it is only a matter of finding one at your price point and doing mods.  Then all that would be left is the blood, sweat, and tears.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, multihuler said:

52024193_2527261277315896_9039211656042774528_n.jpg.a2b9da84fa22afa1bdb83c31267bec20.jpgshe has a 39ft carbon mast with almost twice the sail area of a class c

Looks like that boat must fly along. I don’t have a place to put it :P

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10 minutes ago, Tomfl said:

I would look at something with wings; which would allow relaxing an minimize trapeze usage.  The vid is of a Hobie 21 SE; the SC has a built in storage area but is heavier.  I have a Prindle 18-2 that has been modded with wings, something not really all that hard to do on any of the older Dead Cat Society boats from the 1990s and 2000s.  Another consideration for a mod would be to add a y pole on the rear crossbar so you could use a sculling oar; probably more realistic than two conventionally mounted oars.  You could go all out and get an A class cat for super light weight and better speed.  Not sure if it is realistic to put wings on them.  As others have noted beach cats have competed before so it is only a matter of finding one at your price point and doing mods.  Then all that would be left is the blood, sweat, and tears.

 

 

I have no experience with wings. How difficult is it to fabricate wings? Also, is it possible to trapeze off of wings for some extra righting moment? Most of my question is how much boat can 300 lbs of crew handle with wings. 

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The wings on my Prindle were originally from a Hobie 21; not sure if it was an SC or an SE.  In any case while fabrication would be possible and much lighter in carbon fiber for a cheapskate like me I would just look for a set from a beach cat that had been scrapped.  It is not uncommon to trapeze off the wings.  The thing is few folks will be on a trapeze for five straight days.

The Prindle 18-2 and 19 (similar boats in many respects) had a suggested crew weight of 350-400 if I recall.  Problem with answering your question is I am sure Randy Smythe could get a light weight beach babe and handle a much bigger boat than an old white fat guy like me could with another old white fat guy.  Not sure about the  R2AK but the EC requires boats to have reef points on the main and if you reef often and early that would be more of a factor than the crew weight.  Another factor would be how comfortable you, and your crew, would be in self righting.

Not sure where you live but if you are close to the water it should not be all that hard to hitch a ride on a beach cat and get some feel for the size of boat you feel comfortable with.  Something like a Hobie Getaway is made of roto molded plastic which adds to weight and is generally said to be under canvassed; it is aimed at the first boat crowd.  Nothing wrong with it and many folks camp with it.  No question something like a Prindle, NACRA, SuperCat, bunch more would be faster and harder to handle.

You could get something like a Stiletto 23, Reynolds 21 (or even a 33) or several other what I would call super beach cats over 20-25 feet that would be much faster.  But the smaller, older ones would be cheaper and easier to deal with.  But your first step should be to go to the beach and hitch a ride on as many as you can to get a feel for what fits your needs.

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If you haven't done many longer trips on beach cats, I think it would be advantageous to get your hands on one and go do a 20 hour overnight passage on one on a cool damp evening.  It might give you an idea of the kinds of logistical challenges you face; staying warm, staying fed, navigation, gear storage.  

It might give you an idea of the type of features you want to keep the boat moving for 5 or 6 days.  Might help you to narrow down your boat search some.  

 

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21 hours ago, JojoFruji said:

Sorry, I didn’t phrase my question correctly. I am looking for boat recommendations. 

If you want a cheap boat, get a Hobie Getaway for this race.  Sure it is slower (but it will get to 15), but it has bow nets for storing all the stuff you need to camp with; plastic hulls won't get damaged by floating logs as easily, no boom so nobody gets killed by a bad gybe; has wings but you can trapeze if you need to.  I would put a reef point in the mainsail (I did for mine), just in case.  You can fit a light air masthead reacher and an asymspin so off the wind you can have fun--but no need to put a bowsprit on since those sails will fly nice off the front spreader bow (which is what I did on mine).  Versatile boat--will get you there.  Won't win the race or the silverware; but your first attempt probably won't be your last.  

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On 9/15/2019 at 12:37 AM, JojoFruji said:

I have no experience with wings. How difficult is it to fabricate wings? Also, is it possible to trapeze off of wings for some extra righting moment? Most of my question is how much boat can 300 lbs of crew handle with wings. 

How difficult? not too hard if you are a metal fabricator, spar builder or have a decent amount of experience with wings on a beach cat

if you don't have any of those skills ... or experience you could easily build wings that suffer the same failures many do

even manufacturer supplied wings often fail 

 

Can you trap off a wing? - yup

IMG_6250

I have been sailing cats for 20 years now.

If ii was to take a beachcat to R2K i would want the biggest one i could, with wings, and as wide as i can get 

RC - 30 or 27 comes to mind

RC-30

Tornado or Mystere 6.0 MX (10' beam)

My concern would be using a legacy boat for these type conditions

the metal could be fatigued with little way of knowing it -

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Stiletto 23 would be the minimum cat I would want to even consider for the R@AK.

Image result for stiletto 23 catamaran

 

    I've seen them rigged with racks and they are pretty rugged boats being built in pre-preg Epoxy/Nomex. 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, MN3 said:

How difficult? not too hard if you are a metal fabricator, spar builder or have a decent amount of experience with wings on a beach cat

if you don't have any of those skills ... or experience you could easily build wings that suffer the same failures many do

even manufacturer supplied wings often fail 

 

Can you trap off a wing? - yup

IMG_6250

I have been sailing cats for 20 years now.

If ii was to take a beachcat to R2K i would want the biggest one i could, with wings, and as wide as i can get 

RC - 30 or 27 comes to mind

RC-30

Tornado or Mystere 6.0 MX (10' beam)

My concern would be using a legacy boat for these type conditions

the metal could be fatigued with little way of knowing it -

Thanks, do you know of any sites that detail the process?

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1 hour ago, JojoFruji said:

Thanks, do you know of any sites that detail the process?

well - no, but we have discussed them a bunch on the beachcats - https://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?module=forums&func=viewtopic&topic=17838

and you can search there for more discussion but that site typically does not go into hyper detail ... hope it helps

there used to be a "trap seat" forum on catsailor.com but that site is static, and i don't even see that category anymore

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 a Hobie 21 SE or SC might get the job done.  Obviously, the smaller and lighter the boat the more skill, experience, good judgement and luck will all come into play.  Once you get used to the wings they make longer, more exposed trips much more comfortable and also provide a somewhat safer platform. 

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2 minutes ago, JojoFruji said:

How about a Nacra 5.8? Lots of them available and fairly affordable.

it has 8' beams, no wings (although they did sell aftermarket wings for them i think that plugged into the beam ends - these are known to fail)
No storage room except perhaps a 6"  deck lid (or 4)

I would look for a wider boat to help avoid a capsize in these (COLD) water - but to each their own
I would want wings and a bigger tramp  (wider boat) for storing gear (aka rum) - ymmv

I mean someone did this race in a hobie Mirage - so anything is possible 

2018 (21st) 22d 4h 15m, Ravenous - 19.5’ (5.9m) Cat - Hobie Miracle 20 (2 Crew)
2015 (11th) 13d 1h 10m, Discovery - 16.6’ (5.1m) Tri - Hobie Mirage Adventure Island (1 Crew)
2017 (4th) 7d 14h 44m, Ketch Me If U Can - 20’ (6.1m) Cat - Nacra Inter 20 (2 Crew)
2017 (25th) 21d 4h 0m, Make It So - 19.2’ (5.9m) Cat - Prindle 19 (2 Crew)

https://r2ak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019_18_17_16_15-Results-8.pdf

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40 minutes ago, MN3 said:


No storage room except perhaps a 6"  deck lid (or 4)

 

6 inch is manageable.  All food and gear gets seperated into 5L dry bags (around 5 inch diameterx15 inches long).  Telescoping boat hook might be necessary for recovery.  Sleeping bag might be a pain, I have a 0 rated down bag that will fit in a 5L dry bag along with a set of merino wool long underwear for sleeping.  I am not sure if a 0 rated bag will be adequate for R2AK.  Lots of tents, stoves and cook sets will fit through 6 inch hatch.  Non issue for clothes, you can get a whole wardrobe of modern synthetics in a couple of 5L bags. If dry suits are off, suspect they would have to go in deck bag.

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4 hours ago, MN3 said:

........If ii was to take a beachcat to R2K i would want the biggest one i could, with wings, and as wide as i can get......

^^^^This. And don’t underestimate the effects of cold wet and exposure.....

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1 hour ago, TBW said:

6 inch is manageable. ...  If dry suits are off, suspect they would have to go in deck bag.

manageable ... yes you can make just about anything work
but imho: it's not optimal

you're probably not accessing much while sailing with any real wind and ...

in my experience, whatever bag you stuff in there better hold a max 5.5" shape or .., it's not coming back out easily. it will jam up and not pull out - this leads to having to unpack the entire bag to get to something at the bottom at times (always when you NEED something too)

so if you have ... 6 bags in there? ... per hull... good luck getting your warn hat, dry clothing, map, tools , flair, medical kit ... or something really important (rum) in any time soon.



my solution (for island hoping and camping - not distance racing) was to add a small front tramp and add  24" X 14"  hatches with hinged covers:
my 5.5 has a small tramp just in front of my front beam. regular tramp material made by a tramp shop, about 2' long. held my anchor and righting bag, and cooler - cleared up my deck - spin pole sat under it
my 6.0 has a hand woven mesh that hangs off the spin sprit - this holds my anchor and righting bag


in hind-sight, wish i didn't add the hatches. just another place to leak/ break / fail  ... i didn't need the storage that badly - but it was great to have actual hatches to access my dry bag and warm gear in colder sailing (that's upper 60's to us floridains  :) )
 

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30 minutes ago, MN3 said:

manageable ... yes you can make just about anything work
but imho: it's not optimal

you're probably not accessing much while sailing with any real wind and ...

in my experience, whatever bag you stuff in there better hold a max 5.5" shape or .., it's not coming back out easily. it will jam up and not pull out - this leads to having to unpack the entire bag to get to something at the bottom at times (always when you NEED something too)

so if you have ... 6 bags in there? ... per hull... good luck getting your warn hat, dry clothing, map, tools , flair, medical kit ... or something really important (rum) in any time soon.



my solution (for island hoping and camping - not distance racing) was to add a small front tramp and add  24" X 14"  hatches with hinged covers:
my 5.5 has a small tramp just in front of my front beam. regular tramp material made by a tramp shop, about 2' long. held my anchor and righting bag, and cooler - cleared up my deck - spin pole sat under it
my 6.0 has a hand woven mesh that hangs off the spin sprit - this holds my anchor and righting bag


in hind-sight, wish i didn't add the hatches. just another place to leak/ break / fail  ... i didn't need the storage that badly - but it was great to have actual hatches to access my dry bag and warm gear in colder sailing (that's upper 60's to us floridains  :) )
 

The set up I described is the set up I have on my P16.  Plus a 30L dry bag strapped at the mast base for snacks and day stuff and a soft sided chart case with electronics and charts stbd side forward.  It does work.  Sea kayakers can't access their camping gear on the water.

There is no fucking way I would try the R2ak in a 16-17 ft beach cat.   But it wouldn't be because of gear storage.   It would be about fatigue management for me.  No way to take shelter, warm up, get fed, sleep etc.

:)

 

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TBW is right on about trying to do the R2AK in any cat under 20'. A SuperCat 20 would be about the minimum I would even attempt such a trip. I was on a team that turbo'ed a SuperCat 20 to the max for a Worrell 1000 and know that if we had tried the R2AK on it we would have drowned or frozen or been eaten by bears! The girls in bikinis that awaited us as the fallen heros on the beach at the Lake Worth pier after our dismasting were much more enjoyable that a grumpy hungry bear on some frozen rocky stretch of Vancouver Island! The girls were hungry too but in a whole different manner and kept us amused while our ground crew re-rigged the boat during the balmy night... 

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The guys that did so well on the Inter 20 in 2017 had to have been very good beach cat sailors, but they were also fearless. Fearless means no fear of dying, which can be helpful at times I guess, but ripping at night with a gale warning in open water with logs everywhere seems over the top. I could see doing it in a beach cat if winning wasn't the goal and night sailing was out of the question, otherwise it's just a bit close to the bone.

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8 hours ago, Fat Point Jack said:

Don't drop the mainsheet while out on the wings.  It's a long way down.

I imagine it’s quite the dive.

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3 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

The guys that did so well on the Inter 20 in 2017 had to have been very good beach cat sailors, but they were also fearless. Fearless means no fear of dying, which can be helpful at times I guess, but ripping at night with a gale warning in open water with logs everywhere seems over the top. I could see doing it in a beach cat if winning wasn't the goal and night sailing was out of the question, otherwise it's just a bit close to the bone.

I am not expecting to win. Finishing would be a victory. On a fairly fast nacra, about how long would you guess (conservatively) should it take (without night sailing) to complete? With night sailing? I know that the nature of the race makes this question hard to answer, but a ballpark figure would be much appreciated.

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2 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

I did it in 9 days in 2017 and 7+ in 2018, but was sleeping every night.

Wow. You must have been flying. 100 miles a day consistently is incredible.

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Just remember that there is plenty of light for a very very long day up at that latitude in the summer.  

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7 hours ago, JojoFruji said:

I am not expecting to win. Finishing would be a victory. On a fairly fast nacra, about how long would you guess (conservatively) should it take (without night sailing) to complete? With night sailing? I know that the nature of the race makes this question hard to answer, but a ballpark figure would be much appreciated.

You could come up with a calculated estimate.  

During training I keep a running log of average VMG for all conditions electronically.  After a couple hundred miles I get a pretty good idea of average VMG for mixed conditions (head wind, tail wind, piping, dead calm).  For me, it gives a surprisingly accurate guesstimate.  With my sailing style, which is pretty conservative, my beach cat is good for 5 knots average VMG.  So for planning purposes I can expect to make about 60 miles in 12 hours.   Of course some days are slower some days are faster.  If I run through the night, that distance is roughly doubled, so 120 miles.

I would think that calculating an estimate without actually sailing the boat would be pretty rough.  But, you could use plymouth yard stick ratings as a ballpark comparison I guess.  A quick look at a chart I googled shows a Nacra 5.8 being roughly 12% faster than my boat. So I guess 60 milesx1.12 equals 67.2 miles over 12 hours.

Based on that math, with my sailing style it should theoretically take me just over 11 days on a Nacra 5.8 sailing 12 hours a day to go 750 miles.

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1 hour ago, TBW said:

You could come up with a calculated estimate.  

During training I keep a running log of average VMG for all conditions electronically.  After a couple hundred miles I get a pretty good idea of average VMG for mixed conditions (head wind, tail wind, piping, dead calm).  For me, it gives a surprisingly accurate guesstimate.  With my sailing style, which is pretty conservative, my beach cat is good for 5 knots average VMG.  So for planning purposes I can expect to make about 60 miles in 12 hours.   Of course some days are slower some days are faster.  If I run through the night, that distance is roughly doubled, so 120 miles.

I would think that calculating an estimate without actually sailing the boat would be pretty rough.  But, you could use plymouth yard stick ratings as a ballpark comparison I guess.  A quick look at a chart I googled shows a Nacra 5.8 being roughly 12% faster than my boat. So I guess 60 milesx1.12 equals 67.2 miles over 12 hours.

Based on that math, with my sailing style it should theoretically take me just over 11 days on a Nacra 5.8 sailing 12 hours a day to go 750 miles.

I’ll give that a try.

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I sail a Tornado with wings about the Salish Sea and would recommend one for coastal cruising/racing. They're small enough to manage on the beach yet large enough for 2 people and gear. Quite a few about and reasonably-priced too.

IMG_20190830_212243_349.jpg

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So the record for under 20ft still stands at 7 days-ish?

That's a good metric to try and beat, especially if you aren't going for the overall win (which most of us probably aren't). After all, there has to be some competitive motivation huh - at least for me... 

Unless of course, we think a boat under 20ft has a realistic chance of winning overall... maybe someone needs to do it in a Moth :lol:

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10 minutes ago, Tito said:

So the record for under 20ft still stands at 7 days-ish?

7 days, 15 hours-ish

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15 minutes ago, Tito said:

So the record for under 20ft still stands at 7 days-ish?

That's a good metric to try and beat, especially if you aren't going for the overall win (which most of us probably aren't). After all, there has to be some competitive motivation huh - at least for me... 

Unless of course, we think a boat under 20ft has a realistic chance of winning overall... maybe someone needs to do it in a Moth :lol:

You might as well swim there. :lol:

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On 9/17/2019 at 9:43 PM, TBW said:

You could come up with a calculated estimate.  

During training I keep a running log of average VMG for all conditions electronically.  After a couple hundred miles I get a pretty good idea of average VMG for mixed conditions (head wind, tail wind, piping, dead calm).  For me, it gives a surprisingly accurate guesstimate.  With my sailing style, which is pretty conservative, my beach cat is good for 5 knots average VMG.  So for planning purposes I can expect to make about 60 miles in 12 hours.   Of course some days are slower some days are faster.  If I run through the night, that distance is roughly doubled, so 120 miles.

I would think that calculating an estimate without actually sailing the boat would be pretty rough.  But, you could use plymouth yard stick ratings as a ballpark comparison I guess.  A quick look at a chart I googled shows a Nacra 5.8 being roughly 12% faster than my boat. So I guess 60 milesx1.12 equals 67.2 miles over 12 hours.

Based on that math, with my sailing style it should theoretically take me just over 11 days on a Nacra 5.8 sailing 12 hours a day to go 750 miles.

Once you have a boat and have put it through its paces, that is the best way to be sure of your likely daily run. In the mean time, and for comparing different boats, you could use:

“BSpd - Base Speed: An empirically derived indicator of the speed a given boat could average over a 24 hour period (Best Days Run) under a variety of conditions. It can be used to compare speed potential of one or more boats. It has been used for handicapping boat races involving a variety of boat types.

"Base Speed: A Simple Measure for Estimating Multihull Performance", 

Richard Boehmer, Multihull International, No. 225, (APR'89) pp. 108-110.

BSpd. = 1.7*(Lwl^0.5)*(SA^0.352)/((Disp.*2240)^.253)”

http://www.multihulldynamics.com/news_article.asp?articleID=34

.........Just make sure that you compare them like for like in terms of displacement and sail areas....

PS:

FWIW, bearing in mind that Base Speed gives max theoretical values, the NACRA 5.8 has a Base Speed of ~ 9.76 knots depending on your overall displacement. Which means a top speed of double that, and a max upwind speed of around the same as Base Speed.... A Tornado comes in at roughly the same.

This might also help: https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/piano.revolutionise.com.au/site/ryfdavakzc5fr4hj.pdf

Edited by Sidecar
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6 hours ago, Sidecar said:

Once you have a boat and have put it through its paces, that is the best way to be sure of your likely daily run. In the mean time, and for comparing different boats, you could use:

“BSpd - Base Speed: An empirically derived indicator of the speed a given boat could average over a 24 hour period (Best Days Run) under a variety of conditions. It can be used to compare speed potential of one or more boats. It has been used for handicapping boat races involving a variety of boat types.

"Base Speed: A Simple Measure for Estimating Multihull Performance", 

Richard Boehmer, Multihull International, No. 225, (APR'89) pp. 108-110.

BSpd. = 1.7*(Lwl^0.5)*(SA^0.352)/((Disp.*2240)^.253)”

http://www.multihulldynamics.com/news_article.asp?articleID=34

.........Just make sure that you compare them like for like in terms of displacement and sail areas....

PS:

FWIW, bearing in mind that Base Speed gives max theoretical values, the NACRA 5.8 has a Base Speed of ~ 9.76 knots depending on your overall displacement. Which means a top speed of double that, and a max upwind speed of around the same as Base Speed.... A Tornado comes in at roughly the same.

This might also help: https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/piano.revolutionise.com.au/site/ryfdavakzc5fr4hj.pdf

Thank you. I am not very handy with the boat speed calculations, but I’ll check it out.

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3 hours ago, JojoFruji said:

Thank you. I am not very handy with the boat speed calculations, but I’ll check it out.

Set up a spreadsheet in Excel, then you can punch in data for different boats for comparison and also see the effect of changes to weight and sail area. Always make sure that you are comparing like for like, ie actual overall sailing displacements and actual max white sail areas. And remember they are flat water/ideal condition indications of boat speed.

You would also do well to sift through the R2AK archives for similar boats and get their passage times, adjusting for different weathers and circumstances, which will give you a range of times to consider and prepare for. There are long periods in this race where sailing speed will be zero and progress is governed by the efficiency of your human powered set up.

Tides are another big factor, there are significant tidal currents which will help or hinder you. The more you can use the favourable ones and avoid/rest during the adverse ones, regardless of the time of day or night, the quicker overall you will be for the least amount of effort.

Good Luck. I hope to do R2AK myself one day.....

 

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22 hours ago, Funslut said:

I sail a Tornado with wings about the Salish Sea and would recommend one for coastal cruising/racing. They're small enough to manage on the beach yet large enough for 2 people and gear. Quite a few about and reasonably-priced too.

IMG_20190830_212243_349.jpg

Is that a log on the foreground?

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12 minutes ago, sail(plane) said:

Is that a log on the foreground?

Nope.  Kelp.  Almost as 'good'...

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22 hours ago, Funslut said:

I sail a Tornado with wings about the Salish Sea and would recommend one for coastal cruising/racing. They're small enough to manage on the beach yet large enough for 2 people and gear. Quite a few about and reasonably-priced too.

IMG_20190830_212243_349.jpg

Would a Tornado be too much cat for two fairly small people?

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27 minutes ago, JojoFruji said:

Would a Tornado be too much cat for two fairly small people?

Should be fine I think.  Depending how you pack, you might have 100lbs+ of food, gear, water.  Try to keep the weight low.  Fixed ballast.

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2 hours ago, JojoFruji said:

Would a Tornado be too much cat for two fairly small people?

many professional sailors and Tornado olympians are on the "smaller side" 

 

Here are 2 olympians
Charlie Ogletree is quoted at 5 ft 9 in
Mitch Booth 5.5 ft

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The Tornado’s at 10 ft wide have a lot of righting moment, my Nacra 18 square at 11 ft wide is so tame even with a 32ft carbon Tornado mast. IMO the lighter you are the wider you want your boat, if it’s blowing and your boat is 8ft wide you will have to trap the whole time, I don’t know about you but after a few hours on the same tack in proper wind on the wire sawing on the sheets, my knees are trembling my arms are aching and I’m pretty rooted. If I was to do the race I would have wings so I can sit and relax a bit still keeping righting moment ( speed and stability ) and at least 10ft beam so the boat is super stable, any boat can be widened but Tornado sounds great with kick up boards, tuned for spin etc. The wings are easily made and guys I’ve raced on distance races have trapped off the Nacra 5.8 with wings in a blow and made good time

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24 minutes ago, madboutcats said:

is so tame even with a 32ft carbon Tornado mast.

I thought a T mast was  9.08 m / 29 ft 9 in . ?

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43 minutes ago, madboutcats said:

The Tornado’s at 10 ft wide have a lot of righting moment, my Nacra 18 square at 11 ft wide is so tame even with a 32ft carbon Tornado mast. IMO the lighter you are the wider you want your boat, if it’s blowing and your boat is 8ft wide you will have to trap the whole time, I don’t know about you but after a few hours on the same tack in proper wind on the wire sawing on the sheets, my knees are trembling my arms are aching and I’m pretty rooted. If I was to do the race I would have wings so I can sit and relax a bit still keeping righting moment ( speed and stability ) and at least 10ft beam so the boat is super stable, any boat can be widened but Tornado sounds great with kick up boards, tuned for spin etc. The wings are easily made and guys I’ve raced on distance races have trapped off the Nacra 5.8 with wings in a blow and made good time

Are you saying that the Nacra is not suitable for my weight range?

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9 hours ago, JojoFruji said:

Are you saying that the Nacra is not suitable for my weight range?

No but the 18 square has only enough buoyancy for one person, especially with what you are doing, if I was doing that race I would put my 11 foot beams from the 18 square on my Nacra 5:8 and the carbon mast with a spin kit on the 5.8 as those hulls are super strong and have the buoyancy to handle two people, wings and all the gear. That’s easy for me to say as I already have the boats. My mention of my wider boat was just so you understood where I was coming from and really I was just agreeing with the concept of a Tornado

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9 hours ago, MN3 said:

I thought a T mast was  9.08 m / 29 ft 9 in . ?

Mine is 32 foot but it was one of the early carbon masts, it looks like the same tapered profile as the 38 foot, Marstrom 20 mast my mate has so I’m guessing you can/could get them whatever length. It’s much lighter than the Nacra aluminium section and gives a chance for easier righting, which I think is an important consideration in this thread

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On 9/16/2019 at 12:55 PM, MN3 said:

well - no, but we have discussed them a bunch on the beachcats - https://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?module=forums&func=viewtopic&topic=17838

and you can search there for more discussion but that site typically does not go into hyper detail ... hope it helps

there used to be a "trap seat" forum on catsailor.com but that site is static, and i don't even see that category anymore

I have a set of trap seats I can offer since they have not been rigged on a Hobie 16 for 15+ years.

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15 hours ago, madboutcats said:

No but the 18 square has only enough buoyancy for one person, especially with what you are doing, if I was doing that race I would put my 11 foot beams from the 18 square on my Nacra 5:8 and the carbon mast with a spin kit on the 5.8 as those hulls are super strong and have the buoyancy to handle two people, wings and all the gear. That’s easy for me to say as I already have the boats. My mention of my wider boat was just so you understood where I was coming from and really I was just agreeing with the concept of a Tornado

Does anyone know of any tornados for sale in the western US?

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On 9/19/2019 at 8:37 AM, MN3 said:

many professional sailors and Tornado olympians are on the "smaller side" 

 

Here are 2 olympians
Charlie Ogletree is quoted at 5 ft 9 in
Mitch Booth 5.5 ft

Is there a way to avoid the tilt trailer for the tornado?  The cat would need to stay fully assembled on a trailer for my YC’s dry storage.

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I unbolt the 11 ft beams from the 18 square and replace them with 8 ft beams for trailering, it is a pain as it takes longer to setup and pack up the boat but the payoff is convenient parking at home. There was someone in Japan that had tramp tracks welded to his beams on the Tornado so they stayed in shape and just unbolted the beams with tramp all setup and rotated the whole lot for travelling, that looked pretty convenient, I would try to get a newer Tornado with carbon mast as they were setup for spinnaker and the carbon mast is so easy to handle. Good luck with your project

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Plenty of beachcat candidates, including Tornadoes: https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/g1-catamarans-for-sale.html

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21 hours ago, JojoFruji said:

Does anyone know of any tornados for sale in the western US?

A Tornado would be a great choice but if you are on a fairly tight budget most likely you will be looking at boats that may not have even made in this century.  Something like a Prindle 19 or 18-2 is very similar to the Tornado; and other choices would also be in play in my opinion.  The link thebeachcats has a good classified section as well as good forums.  Several other places like craigslist also have deals at times.  Bottom line is with your price point you most likely should look for a deal first and not zero in on one single type of boat.

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This would be a perfect deal for the R2AK. Boat has been for sale in TX for years and has the tilt trailer.$4K was the asking price. Really rugged build (Boston Whaler) and has shroud lengtheners and righting system stock. Racks and this would be my second choice after the Stiletto 23. I think we would have been contenders for the Worrell if we hadn't put the overly ambitious Carbon wing ring on it. I did some outrageous inter island races in the Caribbean in a much simpler SuperCat 17 and it was pretty amazing in big swell and wind and could beat Tornados in long distance races in a blow. 

 

http://cedarcreek-tx.allboatlistings.com/ad/gallery/17246875/2/

 

Image result for super cat sailboat

 

image.png.3aeae8a47b2a147f330a2df312f3b0bc.png

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On 9/19/2019 at 6:31 AM, JojoFruji said:

Would a Tornado be too much cat for two fairly small people?

Assuming they know how to sail a beachcat, no.

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On 9/20/2019 at 6:46 PM, JojoFruji said:

Is there a way to avoid the tilt trailer for the tornado?  The cat would need to stay fully assembled on a trailer for my YC’s dry storage.

Not legally in the USA (as far as i know of, there may be some states that do permit it but not that i ever heard of)

8'6" is the limit to drive on most roads without an oversized load (permits, flags, and escort car)

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On 9/21/2019 at 6:07 PM, Rasputin22 said:

This would be a perfect deal for the R2AK. Boat has been for sale in TX for years and has the tilt trailer.$4K was the asking price. Really rugged build (Boston Whaler) and has shroud lengtheners and righting system stock. Racks and this would be my second choice after the Stiletto 23. I think we would have been contenders for the Worrell if we hadn't put the overly ambitious Carbon wing ring on it. I did some outrageous inter island races in the Caribbean in a much simpler SuperCat 17 and it was pretty amazing in big swell and wind and could beat Tornados in long distance races in a blow. 

 

http://cedarcreek-tx.allboatlistings.com/ad/gallery/17246875/2/

 

Image result for super cat sailboat

 

image.png.3aeae8a47b2a147f330a2df312f3b0bc.png

no disrespect to this boat but super cats are super wet rides

i have been on several and all of them douche the snot out of crew and skipper

unless this had wings, i would say it is not even a contender for a distance race where the elements come into play

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Yes, the SuperCats can be wet at speed but when I first brought up the 20 as a possible R2AK ride I did make the qualifier that good racks would be essential. All the SC models have very elliptical hulls with no sheer joint or rail to act as deflectors for spray and the bow wave does sheet right up and over to the stagnation point and then burst into spray. That does mean that when pressed hard they can keep driving even though they are quite bow down. Plenty of volume in those big sleek hulls though. Bill Roberts cats would be the next step and I think that he had done the designs for the SC's for Boston Whaler. 

In the mid and late 1970s Bill began designing wing sails, sails with thickness, and then beach catamarans. In 1978 Bill and a partner started a boat company called Formulae Racing Sailboats under which they designed and produced the SuperCat product line. The SuperCat catamaran design included several unique patented features. One of these features was the elliptical hull shape to reduce the pitchpoling tendency of multihull sailboats. This design feature has become an industry standard in multihulls of all sizes. Many of the big ocean racers, both cats and tri's utilize the elliptical hull shape. The foredeck of these high-speed ocean racers frequently run underwater as much as they run on top of the water, flat decks just won't cut it! Examples include TEAM PHILIPS, SEABAGO, FURY, and the amas on most of the recently designed large ocean racing trimarans.

 

http://www.aquarius-sail.com/main/about_us.html

 

RC 27

SCN13000-3.jpg

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they are well designed and fun for sure!

I have capsized on a 17 and 19  :)

was able to self right the 17 (with aid from the shroud extenders) but the 19 .... that was a bear even for 2 of us

I think it is really neat that the 17 have no boards and sails very well but the 19 had boards (with same designed hulls)

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15 minutes ago, MN3 said:

they are well designed and fun for sure!

I have capsized on a 17 and 19  :)

was able to self right the 17 (with aid from the shroud extenders) but the 19 .... that was a bear even for 2 of us

I think it is really neat that the 17 have no boards and sails very well but the 19 had boards (with same designed hulls)

Yeah, I never understood how the 17 went to weather so well without boards but it did if you kept if footing. The 15 was a pretty amazing little singlehander too! It had about twice the hull volume that my favorite little Prindle 15 had.

Image result for boston whaler supercat

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IIRC no team has done the R2AK on a beach cat more than once.  Am I right?  And, at least one beach cat team has gone on to do the R2AK a second time but on a bigger, more comfortable trimaran (and they won, Pure and Fun) 

I have been known to scramble my facts before, so, please, those of you with more expertise or time to research the R2AK correct me (civilly) if I am wrong.

If I am right, my point is:  Learn from history and do the R2AK on something less torturous than a beach cat.

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5 hours ago, unShirley said:

IIRC no team has done the R2AK on a beach cat more than once.  Am I right?  And, at least one beach cat team has gone on to do the R2AK a second time but on a bigger, more comfortable trimaran (and they won, Pure and Fun) 

I have been known to scramble my facts before, so, please, those of you with more expertise or time to research the R2AK correct me (civilly) if I am wrong.

If I am right, my point is:  Learn from history and do the R2AK on something less torturous than a beach cat.

Ask me again after the race, but I think it’s part of the “fun”. Also, quite cost effective.

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Well said, they got through it once, the trick is to do it well the first time, I wish it wasn’t my busy time of year

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On 9/28/2019 at 9:15 AM, unShirley said:

IIRC no team has done the R2AK on a beach cat more than once.  Am I right?  And, at least one beach cat team has gone on to do the R2AK a second time but on a bigger, more comfortable trimaran (and they won, Pure and Fun) 

I have been known to scramble my facts before, so, please, those of you with more expertise or time to research the R2AK correct me (civilly) if I am wrong.

If I am right, my point is:  Learn from history and do the R2AK on something less torturous than a beach cat.

You’re right but the guys on the Inter 20 “Catch Me If You Can” did the race the year before on an F31. Came back to do it in a beach cat. Did very well too.

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3 hours ago, D Wayne G said:

Came back to do it in a beach cat. Did very well too.

Are you telling me that it may not be the boat that matters, but the sailors and their talent?! 

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2 minutes ago, Tito said:

Are you telling me that it may not be the boat that matters, but the sailors and their talent?! 

A good boat definitely doesn't hurt:P, but I imagine that a crew's talent is equally important if not more. 

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Sandbagger?

Show me the $ ?

Have you done anything stupid lately ?

Be careful in what you wish for

Love r2ak!

 

 

 

Large_1926088_10152117113716553_6035980051335985781_o1.jpg

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 @JojoFruji I would refer you the 2018 version of this question if you haven't read it. http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/198379-r2ak-on-a-beachcat 

most notably my comment in that thread

On 5/15/2018 at 10:40 PM, TheMorgan said:

You have to finish to be able to finish fast. Volume and simplicity over the most highly strung boat give the best chance of finishing and finishing fast. Skip a self tacking jib if it means giving up roller furling, maybe roller furled hooter/screacher or spin.  The ability to not have the boat super overloaded with racks/gear/food/water will make more of a difference in the final speed in the race compared to the the initial speed of the boats you listed or even compared to any super modern beach cat.

Any of the boats you listed would be good, probably not a more modern boat.  Make sure you have a spin or a big genaker, build modestly lightweight racks or have them made, insulate some of the tramp with a sleeping pad, eat like karl kruger did, use oars with somewhere that allows you to sail and row at the same time, practice in 30knots+.

 

 

And galaticair's( R2AK 2017 Ketch me if you can) comment

On 5/16/2018 at 1:42 AM, galacticair said:

Agree with Morgan - the difference in raw performance will get eaten up by the weight needed to race in R2AK.  The I20 felt sluggish in race weight compared to our pre-race sailing, even when we were nearly out of water and food.  Racks, clothes, spare parts, electronics all add up (but they help finish, so not really optional).  And we were a lightish crew to begin with. 

Spinnaker is a big plus in some of the light downwind conditions that invariably appear despite a mostly upwind course in theory, so that may rule out most Miracle 20s and older designs on your list.  You can have roller furling and self tacking jib, so no need to choose between those.

Beware that some of the wider 10ft+ designs (Tornado, Supercat, Hobie 21) can be harder to right easily.  Tornado should be rightable so long as the mast is properly sealed.   Supercat has a releasable shroud system to help righting.  Hobie 21 is much harder to right from what I've heard, so I'd rule that out even though it is great in other regards (weight carrying capacity especially since designed for 3 people).

And get started early -- it takes time to learn all the reflexes for a powered up beach cat, even from a skiff background.  There are many real ways to get in trouble on a beachcat when the going gets tough.

I will add to what I said before with...

Basically If you are attempting to do the R2AK on a beachcat you have be a bit of a nutter and you are attempting to do the R2AK fast on beachcat  you are going to have to be a nutter masochist. With 2 people you need to cut to the bare minimum of gear to ensure the boat isn't overloaded and can sail better than a turnip. To add to that, things will have to bounce your way in the weather windows. If you loose any of your gear it could put you in a bad way and may mean having to pull the plug on the race.  If you aren't trying to go fast the race is much more manageable when you have the time to pick your spots to push or hold up. Even if you aren't trying to go fast, weight still maters a ton as does how short you can make your rest stops.

Unless you want to throw a ton of money at this the Nacra5.8 and a Tornado would both be decent options. Both have a fair amount of volume and would sail well with the extra weight. Both are not light boats though and if you place gear in the hulls it will make it significantly more difficult to right after a capsize, so you may need a righting pole, even with 2 people. 

An alternative to insulating part of the net would be a float suit to go over your dry suit at night like these https://www.mustangsurvival.com/en_US/products/activity/commercial-industrial/deluxe-anti-exposure-coverall-and-worksuit-MS2175.html As much a dry suit seems may seem all warm and snuggie,  when it is slightly damp from 2 days of rowing/cycling sweat and you are layout out on a net at night you would barely think it is there. The foam in float suit make a huge difference.

 

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Custom racks don't seem realistic for someone on a budget unless you're going to DIY with cheap steel and throwawy after the race.  Welding stainless or aluminum is not easy.

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1 hour ago, eastern motors said:

Custom racks don't seem realistic for someone on a budget unless you're going to DIY with cheap steel and throwawy after the race.  Welding stainless or aluminum is not easy.

No but plenty of people have made them out of PVC. Plenty strong at the 2-4" OD sizes... 

Paint them neon pink of course and you are set.

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5 hours ago, eastern motors said:

Custom racks don't seem realistic for someone on a budget unless you're going to DIY with cheap steel and throwawy after the race.  Welding stainless or aluminum is not easy.

If racks are gonna break the budget ... 

Costs will include boat purchase/prep; travel and lodging; good dry suits, electronics, and survival gear... and that's just the race itself. Training to be competitive is going to cost.even more. 

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12 hours ago, Floating Duck said:
14 hours ago, eastern motors said:

Custom racks don't seem realistic for someone on a budget unless you're going to DIY with cheap steel and throwawy after the race.  Welding stainless or aluminum is not easy.

No but plenty of people have made them out of PVC. Plenty strong at the 2-4" OD sizes... 

Paint them neon pink of course and you are set.

You can also use pultruded fibreglass sections used for balustrading and walkway structures in fish farms etc for racks. Relatively cheap, easy to cut, glass and tape and much stronger and less brittle than PVC tube.

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I use 50x2mm and plumbing pipe PVC fittings for racks on my boats. By notching the tubes the racks gets even more stable. Light, sturdy and cheap. Probably there are 2" tubes and fittings in the US.

This 5.5 widened to 9.8ft have telescoping racks where the lower tubes are 55x2mm alu. The leeward rack lifts automatically.

I am now building a 10.5ft wide 5.8, off course to be equipped with lifting racks. This one would possible work for R2AK, not the tiny 5.5. Wouldn´t try it myself though.

IMG_0403small.jpg

F2.jpg

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Great boat, I feel the Nacra 5.8 boomless system would work well on tacking the boat, I found my 11ft wide frankenboat hard to tack with it stalling in most tacks until I realised I had to have a lot of outhaul off on my boomed sail to power through the tack. The boomless 5.8 sail automatically lets the theoretical outhaul off and then tightens upwind once it’s sheeted on. 

Ive found stainless one of the easiest metals to weld, even with just buying rods for a basic arc welder but stainless is heavy

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Probably too late, but I'd first try to find the boat from 2017 that was fastest beach cat finishers, Ketch Me If You Can.  There was a fire sail on it by race organizers because they had a hard time selling it! 

Otherwise, TheMorgan sums it up pretty well in post 80.  To actually finish on a "tight budget" it is probably better to go with small trimarans like Hobie Mirage or Windrider (2 finishers), which also means going solo, or get two of them.  As suggested, checking out the results is the best guide and R2AK puts up all of them in one handy place:

https://r2ak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019_18_17_16_15-Results-8.pdf

The beach cat effort isn't really cheap - to sail fast - because of the modifications needed.  You definitely want adjustable wings/racks, as well detailed here; you want to have the right height in variable conditions and keep the leeward rack out of the water.  Next, you want to be able to both reduce sail, including reefing the main, and fly a kite, to be ready for light winds and a heavy blow.  A third big item is building a pedal drive, for when there is no wind.  You can see these elements for Ketch Me If You Can in the video in post 37.  They set up pretty well but spent quite a bit of time and money.  All these mods aren't cheap.

If you really want to go with a beach cat, and to go cheap, expect it will take a long time and you won't sail that fast, but you do get to share all the risk.  Or, just sail the first leg on your beach cat and go to the parties in Port Townsend and Victoria to bask in the R2AK spirit with old and new friends.  That was my cheap strategy.  My only modification was to add oar locks to my Hobie 18, much much slower than the pedal drivers.

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With the outside passage option now available for 2019, it certainly makes the beach cat option hard to justify. A fast trimaran is probably the right choice for the race, but if going for a beach cat, the Inter 20 is hard to go wrong with; stable up to 25kts of breeze without the racks, designed to travel long distances at high speeds and it is an easily driven boat that is relatively forgiving as far as high performance sailboats go. You can safely assume however that the boat will be pretty much trashed after the race, or at least need a major overall (sails, rudder system, tramp, beam joints). From that perspective, starting with a cheaper boat is probably good.

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Is the under 20' side bet still a thing? I'd have a hard time entering a 21' catamaran knowing I wouldn't be eligible for a prize. Granted, most sailors are doing it for the experience. If you're doing it in a beach cat, you must be trying for a fast time

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