EarthBM

Used cat market

Recommended Posts

17 hours ago, Bruno said:

I like the hanked on reefable jib.

I've heard mixed things from reefable jibs...

For one they are intrinsically heavier than a regular jib (not that it probably matters on a cruising cat like this). But more importantly, some people report that they are difficult to keep "reefed", flapping all over the place once they become "loosened".

No experience myself of course, just repeating SA-style BS ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Including removing the foil, drum, hardware and lines? Maybe go soft headstay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone have any metrics for home built/custom vs production cats. I am interested in one that was designed by a great designer, but homebuilt. From the pics it looks like a true labor of love, though the interior fit out is a bit amateurish.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/17/2020 at 9:19 PM, EarthBM said:

Sailboat market in 2020s:

 

So much truth to this, I've been looking for an F-31 for a while. Most of the boats listed with brokerages have been there for years. I did speak with a local guy who purchased a aft-cabin/ center cockpit at a very different price than all the ones listed which has really led me to holding off purchasing a boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not quite in the Dazcat league but an interesting more cruiser orientated boat a Balance 451 ( not well sailed in my view )

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Think a good test of the market health is this O55L that Soma mentioned in the other thread: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/outremer-55-light-3608156/

It seems pretty clean, so should be on the upper right frontier of the depreciation curves shown before. It’s in the part of the world with a lot of disposable $$$ and used sailboat supply limited by upwind delivery. And the seller seems to understand how markets work (as opposed to sellers picking a price out of the ego basket and sitting on it for years refusing to come to terms with reality). 
 

It first listed at opportunistic $419 a couple months ago, now dropped in line with most other asking prices at $379 (signaling rational thought). A couple O55s sold in high 200s recently (assuming this one https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2004/outremer-55-light-3620393/ passes the survey/sea trial and actually sells).

So if this one sells in low 300s (cleaner, newer sails and equipment, maybe) the market is healthy. If it sells in mid 300s the market is picking up. If it sells in high 200s the market is softening (although with the older 2002 hull perhaps it will just mean the boat isn’t as clean as the ad suggests). 
 

Or perhaps the owner refuses to follow the path of price discovery to its logical conclusion and the boat just sits at $379 for years, in which case we learn nothing.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thought I had recently...often times a seller throws their boat up at a high price and sits and waits. Eventually the seller caves, and a buyer feels they “got a deal” at 40%-60% off the list price. The buyer then plows $100k+ into the boat to make up for the years of neglect while the boat languished on the market. The buyer then feels that the “market value” of the boat is their discounted price, plus some “I got a deal” amount, plus the $100k+ in refit work. Then, when it comes time to sell, they list it at a “crazy” price and the cycle begins again.
 

I know that to be true for me with my recent purchase. I have to temper my resale expectations. I feel I “got a deal” and I did a bunch of work to her. What does that mean? In reality, it probably means that my eventual “market value” is the purchase price minus the depreciation in years. The boat’s arguably better than she’s ever been before in her life...but that doesn’t really matter. Maybe she’ll sell at the high end of the range for an O55s, but there’s an upper limit. 
 

Luckily for me, the family loves boat life and I’m totally happy with the choice of boat. I don’t see an end to this lifestyle any time soon and I expect to own this boat for a decade or more, but I could feel the “lie” of “purchase price + I got a deal + I put a bunch of money into her = PROFIT!” creeping into my head. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I bought my first boat that I could get into (rather than be on top of) a friend who was a boat broker helped temper my dreams of boat profits. He got me to understand that a boat was worth what other people would pay for it not what I had paid to get it to a particular condition. After doing the math a few times I realized how much better a deal it was to buy a boat someone had recently done up more or less as I wanted rather than the project boat I would make my own.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, soma said:

Luckily for me, the family loves boat life and I’m totally happy with the choice of boat. I don’t see an end to this lifestyle any time soon and I expect to own this boat for a decade or more

Think this is the only real way one can “win” in this game. The real risk is buying a fancy big boat only to be outvoted and putting it back on the market 2 years later. Or worse, just letting it sit at the dock, collecting costs, depreciation, and maintenance, because you refuse to accept a loss.

There are many dimensions along which valuations can be refined besides age:

1) boards/fixed keels 

2) alu/CF mast (Jason’s comment that he much prefers alu, for lightning strike resilience, was interesting)

3) the kind of core used. Balsa is a permanent risk, but how much discount should cedar core be vs foam?

4) the kind of resin used. I think that for older boats there is bugger all difference between polyester/vinyl/epoxy because they are all overbuilt anyway, and weight difference in the real world is dominated by how much crap you carry.

Any opinions about what % adjustments 1-4 warrant? My guesses:

1) -10% for fixed keels? Or just a deal breaker?

2) -5% for alu?

3) -20% for balsa, -5% for cedar?

4) no adjustment?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I talked to a billionaire who was into horses. He was puzzled on how much the horses was worth when he wanted to buy them, and how little the market was, when he should sell...

I guess the same go for some boats..

 

And cool threads - I feel like buying a way bigger catamaran:- )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, soma said:

Luckily for me, the family loves boat life and I’m totally happy with the choice of boat. I don’t see an end to this lifestyle any time soon and I expect to own this boat for a decade or more, but I could feel the “lie” of “purchase price + I got a deal + I put a bunch of money into her = PROFIT!” creeping into my head. 

That's great to hear - congrats.  I'm surprised by how stable the prices are after the initial depreciation curve.  A decade of compounded inflation should help soften the blow considerably when it's time to sell: "I sold her for what I paid back in 2019!"  We can conveniently ignore that over the 10 years we'll put the entire purchase price back into her in operating costs, and lose out on the opportunity cost of the capital if it were invested in something that actually appreciates in real dollars like the stock market or real estate.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, soma said:

One thought I had recently...often times a seller throws their boat up at a high price and sits and waits. Eventually the seller caves, and a buyer feels they “got a deal” at 40%-60% off the list price. The buyer then plows $100k+ into the boat to make up for the years of neglect while the boat languished on the market. The buyer then feels that the “market value” of the boat is their discounted price, plus some “I got a deal” amount, plus the $100k+ in refit work. Then, when it comes time to sell, they list it at a “crazy” price and the cycle begins again.
 

I know that to be true for me with my recent purchase. I have to temper my resale expectations. I feel I “got a deal” and I did a bunch of work to her. What does that mean? In reality, it probably means that my eventual “market value” is the purchase price minus the depreciation in years. The boat’s arguably better than she’s ever been before in her life...but that doesn’t really matter. Maybe she’ll sell at the high end of the range for an O55s, but there’s an upper limit. 
 

Luckily for me, the family loves boat life and I’m totally happy with the choice of boat. I don’t see an end to this lifestyle any time soon and I expect to own this boat for a decade or more, but I could feel the “lie” of “purchase price + I got a deal + I put a bunch of money into her = PROFIT!” creeping into my head. 

Cool,

The family adventures will be priceless and unforgettable..... and that's really what matters most.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, socalrider said:

That's great to hear - congrats.  I'm surprised by how stable the prices are after the initial depreciation curve.  A decade of compounded inflation should help soften the blow considerably when it's time to sell: "I sold her for what I paid back in 2019!"  We can conveniently ignore that over the 10 years we'll put the entire purchase price back into her in operating costs, and lose out on the opportunity cost of the capital if it were invested in something that actually appreciates in real dollars like the stock market or real estate.  

I made a terribly unwise financial decision when I bought my cat last year.

every time I go down and spend a weekend on her I can’t believe what a good bad decision it was.  

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, sushi said:

I made a terribly unwise financial decision when I bought my cat last year.

every time I go down and spend a weekend on her I can’t believe what a good bad decision it was.  

Right on!  You can't take it with you!  

I'm self aware enough to recognize a bad financial decision when I see one, but not self aware enough to avoid trying to rationalize it, often with the help of dubious Excel financial models.   

me: "so to conclude my 30-slide powerpoint, honey, as you can clearly see, we really can't afford *not* to buy this catamaran..."

her: "do you want it?  can we afford it?  then buy it.  or don't.  it'd be nice, but our current boat is fine.  up to you."

me: "I think I need to do a bit more analysis"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, soma said:

One thought I had recently...often times a seller throws their boat up at a high price and sits and waits. Eventually the seller caves, and a buyer feels they “got a deal” at 40%-60% off the list price. The buyer then plows $100k+ into the boat to make up for the years of neglect while the boat languished on the market. The buyer then feels that the “market value” of the boat is their discounted price, plus some “I got a deal” amount, plus the $100k+ in refit work. Then, when it comes time to sell, they list it at a “crazy” price and the cycle begins again.
 

I know that to be true for me with my recent purchase. I have to temper my resale expectations. I feel I “got a deal” and I did a bunch of work to her. What does that mean? In reality, it probably means that my eventual “market value” is the purchase price minus the depreciation in years. The boat’s arguably better than she’s ever been before in her life...but that doesn’t really matter. Maybe she’ll sell at the high end of the range for an O55s, but there’s an upper limit. 
 

Luckily for me, the family loves boat life and I’m totally happy with the choice of boat. I don’t see an end to this lifestyle any time soon and I expect to own this boat for a decade or more, but I could feel the “lie” of “purchase price + I got a deal + I put a bunch of money into her = PROFIT!” creeping into my head. 

Enjoy it!  All our serious cruising was pre-kids. And now we are getting reacquainted with the idea as the kids have grown.  I think your plan is even better! 

In terms of boats and money my wife and I were fortunate.  We always limited what we spent on boats to what we could walk away from if we had to cut it up and put it in a landfill/dumpster.  So the money was never an issue or stressor.  Every moment we spent or now spend on the boat(s) is just pure joy and zero worry. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think a lot of lower priced cats get on the Yachtworld market. Where are all the old French 32, 36, 38 foot boats from the early 90s when the industry was just taking off there?  I reckon that brokers don't want to take them on and they're in boatyards/backyards in England and France slowly molding up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of stuff is just sold locally, eg via Lat 38 in the US

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have been talking to some folks about the long-in-the-tooth 11-year old economics expansion, coming recession, and the safe harbors for financial assets. It occurred to me that holding on to a boat here is directionally the same risk as being long the stock market, only without the dividends and the upside. These are the marginal toys that get dumped first in a crisis. There might be some real bargains ahead.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A friend said something that puts all this in perspective.  " There are lots of ways to lose money. Boats just happen to be fun "  Enjoy whatever boat you can.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, EarthBM said:

Have been talking to some folks about the long-in-the-tooth 11-year old economics expansion, coming recession, and the safe harbors for financial assets. It occurred to me that holding on to a boat here is directionally the same risk as being long the stock market, only without the dividends and the upside. These are the marginal toys that get dumped first in a crisis. There might be some real bargains ahead.

The question becomes what asset class do you leave your savings in while you wait for boats to crater?

I think past cycles suggest very high end luxury assets don't swing as much as merely mass affluent / almost rich asset classes. The people who might put 0.5-1.0 million into a boat are likely to have their plans more affected than those putting in $3-5 million.

(I'm not in the latter group).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, KC375 said:

The question becomes what asset class do you leave your savings in while you wait for boats to crater?

I think past cycles suggest very high end luxury assets don't swing as much as merely mass affluent / almost rich asset classes. The people who might put 0.5-1.0 million into a boat are likely to have their plans more affected than those putting in $3-5 million.

(I'm not in the latter group).

I wasn't in the boat market in 2008 - what was it like then?  I know the market for new boats (and cars) tanked.  I'd think the highest impact would be on vessels where the slip fees are a significant portion of the total cost.  Selling a $500k cat for $200k to raise cash seems unlikely unless you're unlucky enough to be returning from a cruise with an empty kitty.  Better just to defer maintenance a bit and hold on.  

Giving away a newly unsellable $20-100k 35-45 footer to save $10k/year in moorage seems like it would be very common.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, socalrider said:

I wasn't in the boat market in 2008 - what was it like then?  I know the market for new boats (and cars) tanked.  I'd think the highest impact would be on vessels where the slip fees are a significant portion of the total cost.  Selling a $500k cat for $200k to raise cash seems unlikely unless you're unlucky enough to be returning from a cruise with an empty kitty.  Better just to defer maintenance a bit and hold on.  

Giving away a newly unsellable $20-100k 35-45 footer to save $10k/year in moorage seems like it would be very common.  

I think what you say is particularly true in the monohull market. I was more aiming at the price range this thread seems focused on.

In 2008 there were some good deals to be had in all "affordable boat classes"...if you were ready to cast of, you lucked out. Otherwise there were whole bunch of other good deals on assets that were more likely to appreciate or actually generate income rather than expense. I couldn't see investing in a floating rather than liquid asset. 

In most geographies there does seem to be a relative shortage of cat's in the sub $100k range so they might actually hold up during a correction. It looks like downunder mid to large multi's are at a bit of a premium price but their is a much better supply of at the smaller /lower price point than in other markets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, KC375 said:

I think what you say is particularly true in the monohull market. I was more aiming at the price range this thread seems focused on.

In 2008 there were some good deals to be had in all "affordable boat classes"...if you were ready to cast of, you lucked out. Otherwise there were whole bunch of other good deals on assets that were more likely to appreciate or actually generate income rather than expense. I couldn't see investing in a floating rather than liquid asset. 

In most geographies there does seem to be a relative shortage of cat's in the sub $100k range so they might actually hold up during a correction. It looks like downunder mid to large multi's are at a bit of a premium price but their is a much better supply of at the smaller /lower price point than in other markets.

Yeah, I was thinking monohulls.  

West coast affordable cats, outside of Geminis, don't seem to exist.  On Yachtworld there is exactly one California non-Gemini cruising cat on the market for under $300k, a 2006 Seawing 1160 asking $285k (amazingly low depreciation rate if they get it!)  There are only four more between $300-500k.  

To me this suggests an undersupplied market & suggests that prices are likely to stay high for some time.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or spike on up when inflation re-surfaces!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, boardhead said:

Or spike on up when inflation re-surfaces!

And that is an interesting when. I'm not sure anyone has a good handle on how unwinding quantitative easing will go...

"I believe the market—with the S&P at an all-time high—is headed for a brick wall the deeper quantitative tightening gets." Ray Dalio, founder of hedge fund Bridgewater Associates, observes that quantitative tightening is bound to produce effects entirely opposite to those from quantitative easing, namely, "higher interest rates, wider credit spreads and very volatile market conditions."

.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, boardhead said:

Or spike on up when inflation re-surfaces!

Yeah, well, that’s not going to happen.

If indeed inflation “re-surfaces” (unclear what specific catalyst, though, any ideas?) then the Fed’s hands will become tied for the first time in 12 years and they will be forced to tighten. This will crush the stock market and the expensive negative cash flow toys with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of these “oh so under control” terms (quantitative easing/tightening) did not exist in the late 70’s/early 80’s - I recall socialism was flourishing in the UK - that’s where I was lucky enough to be able to ship out of - and as surely as incomes spiked so too did the cost of EVERYTHING.

When the dust settled buying on credit was much more popular and making a living in sales and finance replaced hands on endeavors.

Maybe I missed the rest of the story!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep. Don’t want to derail the thread, but monetary policy just exchanges one type of collateral (treasuries) for another (bank reserves). Hasn’t worked in generating inflation in Japan or Europe either.

Need a fiscal irresponsibility boost to spark inflation. A certain presidential candidate may get us here depending on whether hosing the rich  offsets the spending.

But in any case, Consumer price inflation will just make everyone poorer and cause the Fed to crush the stock market with tighter policy. Both of which will probably destroy the leisure sailboat market as we know it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, EarthBM said:

Yep. Don’t want to derail the thread, but monetary policy just exchanges one type of collateral (treasuries) for another (bank reserves). Hasn’t worked in generating inflation in Japan or Europe either.

Need a fiscal irresponsibility boost to spark inflation. A certain presidential candidate may get us here depending on whether hosing the rich  offsets the spending.

But in any case, Consumer price inflation will just make everyone poorer and cause the Fed to crush the stock market with tighter policy. Both of which will probably destroy the leisure sailboat market as we know it. 

Current occupant of 1600 Penn seems to be trying hard to provide fiscal boost

Year

Deficit

Billions

Debt Increase

Deficit/GDP

 

 

2014

$485

$1,086

2.7%

 

 

2015

$438

$327

2.4%

 

 

2016

$585

$1,423

3.1%

 

 

2017

$665

$672

3.4%

 

 

2018

$779

$1,217

3.8%

 

 

2019

$1,092

$1,314

5.1%

 

 

2020

$1,101

$1,281

NA

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fascinating thread guys, follows closely on the heels of Soma’s original boat search as one of my favourites.

I’m looking seriously at the two O55L’s in the US. Interesting that they’re priced so closely. I do wonder if the second seller simply looked at the first offering and thought “I’ll knock 5k off and should sell first” after all they’re both 2002 55L’s. Then there’s a big  jump to the 2008 O55S in western Oz. Not sure I can justify the extra money for a boat that’s 60cms wider and 6 years newer after seeing the flattening of that depreciation curve after 20 years. Though there does seem to be a bit more demand (or at least fewer examples for sale) of the O55S. And at least she’s in the same country as me, which makes transitioning aboard a bit easier.

Whatever happens, Soma I’m glad to hear you’re loving your boat. I’ve got the right partner (spent many years working on large sailing yachts together, and sailing smaller ones) and now have the (young) kids so it’s just a case of finding the boat. (Incidentally Soma, did you check out any 55 Lights before settling on your boat? Thoughts on the difference?)

I did find a possible carbon rig for Rosinante for around $20k... might put her back in the running!

Bottom line though: I’m not looking to make money off this. Like Soma, we’re anticipating cruising for the next decade or so. That’s the “return” right there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/2/2020 at 4:59 AM, Insolent said:

I did find a possible carbon rig for Rosinante for around $20k... might put her back in the running!

Yes, looks like there are a couple of CF masts available that may fit. The logistics of shipping them and doing the rigging in Hawaii are not trivial though, and the tri-sans-the-mast is not priced as a project boat that it is.

The market has a distinct feel of a Wile E. Coyte moment -- nothing has been selling for a 1-1.5 years anywhere near listed prices. At least of the boats I care about. Kind of like 2006-07 in real estate. The Margin Call movie has three strategies for the sellers in this market:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, it’s not trivial by any means. But there’s no way I’d consider paying close to that asking price. I’d say the seller is about $100k over what anyone would pay, but I understand from the broker that he has turned down two offers of $200k.

 

Hahaha yes indeed, be first, be smarter or cheat! Actually I must say that having looked at a lot of Outremer 55’s and having dug into the archives of soldboats.com it seems those boats are bucking the current market trend somewhat. A few have sold recently for close to asking price and those still for sale seem realistically priced compared to past sales. Do you have other information that might indicate the opposite?

 

What sort of boats do you care about?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/1/2019 at 7:03 AM, EarthBM said:

Everyone else is private,  Nautor Swan is private, as is GLY. Oyster went bankrupt last year, privately owned now. Reported £83m order book at the time. Bavaria went bankrupt last year too...

The conclusion is that the same demographic factors discussed above are wiping our capital invested in making new boats as a business, but there is always someone who buys them in bankruptcy and continues the struggle.

EBM I don't have your bloomberg skills, but it looks like both Hanse (soma: about double Catana revenue) and Fountaine Pajot (about triple Catana revenue) seem to be publicly traded, despite both being majority owned by PE.

Of course they all got a lot cheaper in the last month...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep... if you believe the resale market for catamarans won’t implode, buying Catana at 40% off seems okay?

 

73F952A4-1D49-436B-A677-1757251EC6EF.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, EarthBM said:

Yep... if you believe the resale market for catamarans won’t implode, buying Catana at 40% off seems okay?

 

73F952A4-1D49-436B-A677-1757251EC6EF.png

assuming they were fairly priced before the correction...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hoping so. The problem is getting to a boat to see it, and then to take delivery, and then having places you can actually cruise to!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Issue in Hawaii re rerigging is you need laydown space at an affordable rate. Current policies have reduced options so cost is outrageous. 

There are some off the beaten track possiblities that can be explored. When I rigged with synthetic a blank stick it took a bit longer than I thought but wasn't crazy, just takes so e time to make the adjustments. Multis now have much more complex rigging and deck layouts, taking the time to get it all working harmoniously before setting out on a long trip is a good idea. Crane service has been expensive here but may become cheaper now, boom trucks are a good option for lighter masts if reach can be controlled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, soma said:

Buyer’s market coming up soon. 

Yes prices will likely go down...the interesting question is relative ratio of price to available funds (which may have gone down more...)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, KC375 said:

Yes prices will likely go down...the interesting question is relative ratio of price to available funds (which may have gone down more...)

A good question. In theory the expensive lifestyle toys “should” decline by more than discretionary purchasing power (which dropped some 20-40% in a month). Not just the financial instruments, but all the small/medium business that won’t survive. In practice the sellers will continue to lag the curve. Supply will meet demand through physical deterioration/obsolescence at the dock, like with Lord Dickie.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The sellers always lag the curve. Probably more so now as they try and recoup losses elsewhere...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/21/2020 at 4:23 PM, Insolent said:

The sellers always lag the curve. Probably more so now as they try and recoup losses elsewhere...

It’s not symmetric... in the upswing (90s and early 2000s — dotcom and home equity windfalls, The Race) the market clears and the boats sail, zero sum game between buyers and sellers. In the downswing (now) the boats sit and decay at the dock. A true loss to the society - negative sum game.

Roughly, with $200m of used cat sales a year, 10% depreciation, and extra 6 months on the market on average due to sellers’ refusal of reality the net loss is $10m a year. Pure waste.
 

as a corollary, if someone figures out a way to make the market less illiquid, there is $10m of value to be unlocked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, EarthBM said:

as a corollary, if someone figures out a way to make the market less illiquid, there is $10m of value to be unlocked.

Just need to list on Amazon for free shipping!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we will see downward pressure on the used cat market as we see the same on the new cat market.

Just received the following from sunsail:

New Sunsail Lagoon 424 with

Reduced Down Payment & Guaranteed Trade-in Value

We are pulling out all the stops to continue to offer you attractive, almost unbelievable ownership opportunities.

Today, we have an incredibly unique way to own a Sunsail Lagoon 424 catamaran with the following:

Down Payment Credit:

You'll receive a special closing bonus to reduce your down payment amount.

Discount Off Retail Price:

Retail price is $599,000 but your price is $503,250 (after down payment credit)

Guaranteed Trade-in Value:

We will guarantee a trade-in value at the end of the 5-year program that will offset your down payment amount.*

Break even at program's end (Sail for Free!)

With the down payment credit, guaranteed income, and guaranteed trade-in value, you'll be enjoying 5 years of sailing on your yacht, or sister ships around the world, for free!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's the "Guaranteed Trade-In Value" - Exactly?

$600K for a 42' charter car- seriously!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So as one of those investors currently getting hosed it was really nice to look out the window at my better than new 1991 St Francis 44 alongside my bulkhead and reflect that if anybody wants to own that puppy in 2020 it would cost them more than 2019 - nice diversification from the stock market!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, boardhead said:

What's the "Guaranteed Trade-In Value" - Exactly?

$600K for a 42' charter car- seriously!

I've once or twice tried to make economic sense of Sunsail and a few other charter company programmes for owners.

The only way I could make the deal only marginally stupid was if:

1. I had other income I could shelter from taxes using accelerated depreciation on the boat;

2. I was confident of using all or most of the owner weeks over 5 years (my life is not great at 5 year plans)

3. I did not have other opportunities to invest with at least 10% IRR.

I've not looked closely at this particular deal but it seems much much more aggressive than previous ones. The way I read it Sunsail borrows my credit rating to finance the boat - which does limit what other things I could do with that borrowing capacity - and in exchange for my name on the loan I get to use the boat up to 12 weeks a year for only incidental costs and at the end of 5 years I walk away owing nothing but probably not having earned anything.

It's not my "type" of boat but it's actually not a bad deal if you would want to charter that type of boat from the bases Sunsail offers it.

I'm not endorsing this boat or this offer but making the more generic observation that the offer suggest there is at least right now a big hole in demand

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For new boat builders it's an ongoing nightmare, hence the creativity of the Lagoon offer!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, KC375 said:

1. I had other income I could shelter from taxes using accelerated depreciation on the boat;

I don't think you can do that anymore (at least not normal semi-wealthy people).  I though a loss-making business had to stand on its own, you couldn't use passive loss to defer taxes on unrelated income.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, socalrider said:

I don't think you can do that anymore (at least not normal semi-wealthy people).  I though a loss-making business had to stand on its own, you couldn't use passive loss to defer taxes on unrelated income.  

I'm in no position to give tax advice.

If you might benefit from such an arrangement - i.e. you have income that comes from ownership rather than salary you might discuss how you organize / define your multiple businesses such that you leave no tax loss unused ...

I've been surprised by the constructs advised to me and passed by the relevant tax authorities...

Varies by jurisdiction etc.

Use professionals with subject matter expertise and insurance backing up their advice....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s been interesting to try to follow the  impact of the charter business on used cat prices...more in the condomaran end than the performance end of the market but with some spillover.

As the first couple of generations of optimized for charter catamarans came off charter  rolls (or roles for that matter), sometimes in two steps e.g. moorings to footloose...provided a ready supply constraining the price for people looking for condocats rather than performance cats.

Then the opposite effect. With 2017 hurricanes, for example taking out a third of the Moorings' fleet, the appetite for new boats for the fleet went up, and extending service life reduced those leaving the fleet etc....all in, a big lift in net demand inflating prices.

We may be about to see the opposite. Dream Yachts has just issued a six month suspension of its income guarantee for owners. (There does seem to be some debate whether that is a move allowed by their contractual terms but its a move they have made all the same).

I imagine a significant share of their owners are or will be experiencing financial stress from C-19. Even if their finances have not been affected many of the owners probably believed the “guarantee” and did not organize their finances with the flexibility for suddenly and unexpectedly paying the mortgage on a half million dollar boat – and potentially other boat fees as well. Some of those boats – maybe with the intervention of the mortgage holder – will end up on the market prematurely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kinda like hyenas sitting around the lion kill!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, boardhead said:

Kinda like hyenas sitting around the lion kill!

That must be what Kenyes had in mind by "animal spirits"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, KC375 said:

It’s been interesting to try to follow the  impact of the charter business on used cat prices...more in the condomaran end than the performance end of the market but with some spillover.

As the first couple of generations of optimized for charter catamarans came off charter  rolls (or roles for that matter), sometimes in two steps e.g. moorings to footloose...provided a ready supply constraining the price for people looking for condocats rather than performance cats.

Then the opposite effect. With 2017 hurricanes, for example taking out a third of the Moorings' fleet, the appetite for new boats for the fleet went up, and extending service life reduced those leaving the fleet etc....all in, a big lift in net demand inflating prices.

We may be about to see the opposite. Dream Yachts has just issued a six month suspension of its income guarantee for owners. (There does seem to be some debate whether that is a move allowed by their contractual terms but its a move they have made all the same).

I imagine a significant share of their owners are or will be experiencing financial stress from C-19. Even if their finances have not been affected many of the owners probably believed the “guarantee” and did not organize their finances with the flexibility for suddenly and unexpectedly paying the mortgage on a half million dollar boat – and potentially other boat fees as well. Some of those boats – maybe with the intervention of the mortgage holder – will end up on the market prematurely.

With whats happening now in the economy around the world.

It will be interesting to see whos still standing in many parts of the economy once the lock down of business's and people starts to clear up...

"only when the tide goes out do you discover who has been swimming naked"

W.Buffett.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure - if you are a charter company all your income has dried up almost overnight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anybody for some NCLH stock!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those aren't cats.  Mono hulls are down the hall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, boardhead said:

Anybody for some NCLH stock!

Well it is up 50% since March 18th!...of course it is down some 80% over the last three months...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anyone hears of any deals let me know (via PM!). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does this mean you’re not totally happy with the Outremer, Soma?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, soma said:

If anyone hears of any deals let me know (via PM!). 

Me too; looking for something like an Fboat up to C36 but realistically a C31 or smaller.  Other multihulls easy to trailer are not out of the question but the Fboats are a known quantity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tomfl said:

Something like an Fboat up to C36 but realistically a C31 or smaller

A 36ft? Hope you have a big ass diesel dually on hand.

Even a 31ft is "trailerable", but not easy to trailer.

< 27ft seems more doable unless you are only trailering once or twice a year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tomfl said:

Me too; looking for something like an Fboat up to C36 but realistically a C31 or smaller.  Other multihulls easy to trailer are not out of the question but the Fboats are a known quantity.

Tom you’ve been on the hunt for a trailerable tri for awhile have you looked at the foldable marples in Florida on sailboatlistings? Price seeemsd right before. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Geese said:

Tom you’ve been on the hunt for a trailerable tri for awhile have you looked at the foldable marples in Florida on sailboatlistings? Price seeemsd right before. 

I am afraid of wood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Floating Duck said:

A 36ft? Hope you have a big ass diesel dually on hand.

Even a 31ft is "trailerable", but not easy to trailer.

< 27ft seems more doable unless you are only trailering once or twice a year.

The 36 in Germany would be a great canal boat and big enough to cruise in relative comfort.  trailering would only be from Central Europe to Med.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/28/2020 at 8:42 PM, Insolent said:

Does this mean you’re not totally happy with the Outremer, Soma?

You can never own enough boats! 

I used to say LOL...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/28/2020 at 8:42 PM, Insolent said:

Does this mean you’re not totally happy with the Outremer, Soma?

We LOVE our Outremer. “Boat Home” has been awesome. 
 

I’m still doing some brokerage work, helping folks shop. Great time to be a buyer, and for someone who needs liquidity, I’d be happy to help them get out from under their boat. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

The problem with the Outremer 55 is that is has a lot less space than a much small catamaran.   Yes, it sails better than most condomarans but that is not what most of the buyers in this segment are after.   That boat in Alameda I've seen in person with a $379k ask for a nearly 20 year old cat.   I imagine it will sit for a long time until it gets closer to or under $300k.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I’m still doing some brokerage work, helping folks shop.

Hey can you PM me?   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great to hear you´re loving the boat Soma. After months of looking I´ve pretty much reached the same conclusion you did, that it´s the right boat for us. Just got to get over this mild cold first... *cough*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/31/2020 at 2:56 AM, soma said:

We LOVE our Outremer. “Boat Home” has been awesome. 
 

I’m still doing some brokerage work, helping folks shop. Great time to be a buyer, and for someone who needs liquidity, I’d be happy to help them get out from under their boat. 

Good to hear you LOVE her! I've got a couple in my sights. Just waiting on being able to travel again (Aren't we all!?) Would love to pick your brain sometime on things you've learnt since owning her. How's the wish list of mods going? Are you living aboard full time with your family? Is there anything that you've found really shitty? Anything you particularly love? What about mods on your wish list? I think I read you were keen on the bow extension job at some point... Have you fitted the traveller line driver? If you've got the time I'd love to hear some of your impressions.

Thanks and stay healthy!

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

World's gone nuts. Boats have become the perfect place to quarantine, especially with solar and a good water maker ;)......everyone wants one.

I expect prices to skyrocket. Soma better find me a buyer here soon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/19/2020 at 7:41 AM, Insolent said:

How's the wish list of mods going? 

I got most of my list done. We added the line driver traveler. New sails. New standing rigging. New running rigging. SeaDek on deck and in the cockpit. I got rid of the generator, added new high output alternators. New wind generator. Painted (all of) the bilges. New exterior upholstery. New tramp. New sink. Upsized the master bed from a queen to a king. Converted an amidship cabin into a bunk room for the boys. New solar controllers. New 110v inverter to supplement the 220v. New black water plumbing. Coppercoat bottom. New Gori props. New forward tramp awning and beanbags. Added a washing machine. The list goes on...

Quote

Are you living aboard full time with your family?

We were until the lockdowns got pretty intense. We sailed back to St. John in late March and we’ve been splitting time between our house on St. John and the boat. It’s nice having options. We’ve become gardeners at our house, doing some landscaping and other projects. 

Quote

Is there anything that you've found really shitty?

The bridgedeck clearance actually isn’t that great. The aft cockpit floor is really high, but there’s a step down into the salon. Offshore the slamming is pretty disconcerting. Otherwise, I like!

Quote

Anything you particularly love?

The systems simplicity is awesome. All of the floor boards come up. That’s squeaky but very nice for access. The performance is awesome. We can throttle down for leisurely family cruising and still maintain high average speeds. Double reef and self-tacker and we still do 8-12 knots in average conditions. The boat is capable of a lot more than we want. Light wind performance is great as a result. We don’t see full main often. I like the single shower, two toilet, minimalism. The salon is a little dark (compared to modern cats) but it stays cool luckily. The volume feels great. It isn’t too small, isn’t too big. There’s room to escape and lots of spaces to lounge. though I don’t like the aesthetics, I love the big, gnarly aluminum toe rail. We’ve had multiple customs/border patrol/coast guard boats come alongside. No pretty paint job to worry about. When friends raft up we aren't nervous about fenders. The platform has a VERY small profile with the low topsides and small coachroof. The cabin soles are well below the waterline, which translates into low topsides (but still good headroom). The Catanas and other cats have very high soles which means high topsides. All of that equals windage. 

Quote

What about mods on your wish list?

I wouldn't mind all new solar panels. 1/2 are original and 1/2 are 10 years old. They work, but 3% annual increase in output adds up. You can never have enough electricity. I’d go for the D400 wind gen if I could do it again. I’d also go for the Flex-o-fold props if I could do it again. I still want to replace my wet-cell batteries with carbon foam batteries and install aircon. Without the battery capacity I can’t use the aircon.

Quote

I think I read you were keen on the bow extension job at some point...

Id still like to do that. I asked Dirk Kramers if he thought it was worth it, he said it wouldn’t make me faster. But I still think it’d be cool (and drier). I won’t actually do it, but it’d be nice. 

Quote

Have you fitted the traveller line driver?

I love it. There’s no other way IMHO. 

Quote

If you've got the time I'd love to hear some of your impressions.

Feel free to ask any questions.
 

Long story long, I’m totally happy with my choice. We ALL try to justify our decisions in hindsight, but at our all-in cost I don't think there was a better option. I could’ve spent 2x and been happier (modern Outremer, Chris White, etc). But spending 2x wasn’t possible financially. 

Alternatively, I’d struggle to spend less...period. I’d rather have the interior accommodations of a 45 footer on 55’ hulls, rather than the interior accommodations of a 55’ on 40’ hulls (Lagoon 380/420, Nautitech, FP, etc). 

We put a lot of $$$ into the boat...but I know what I want and what I like. That would’ve been true on virtually any boat regardless of make/model/price. We stayed within our budget for the upgrades/all in price, so that’s nice. At the price we got it for I was fine spending the money. She had her strengths, too. Electronics were new. Motors were low hours. Hatches were new(ish). Some things are fun to spend money on (sails, electrical improvements) and some spots suck to spend on (motors, electronics). The boat was bad in ways we liked and good in ways that we liked, if that makes sense.

We DID have one structural failure so far. A bow stringer failed offshore on the trip down from FL. A little spooky seeing the bow pant offshore. The repair was easy enough, 2 hours of work per day over 4-5 days. But still unfortunate. It wasn’t an expensive repair, just a little glass/epoxy and my labor. But overall confidence went down. I don’t think the O55 deserves it’s offshore “tough guy” reputation. It’s offshore capable, but nothing compared to a GB62. I could easily break the O55. I couldn't break a GB62. But...I shouldn’t be trying to break a boat anymore. Those days are over for me. We’ve hit 36.6 knots surfing a GB in 30-35 knots of breeze. Im good. With just me and Ms. and our two young boys...it’s time to lift the gas pedal and be happy with high teens for boat speed. Certainly none of my other realistic choices would've been any more offshore capable.
 

Last thing I’ll add, there was a good budget for life things that really helped make it our home. The forward awning/hammock/beanbags, the upholstery and bedding, our own plateware and cooking equipment, the new SUPs and other water toys, they all made the boat the right fit. 
 

It’s great knowing we have a semi-autonomous mobile home. We sip diesel, make our own water, make our own electricity, and we can go where we want with all of our stuff. Border restrictions will lift eventually abs we’ll be cruising again. We love our “boat home”. 

 

Quote
  • Like 12

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is your issue with the new Gori props?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, longy said:

What is your issue with the new Gori props?

I feel like they’re a solution without a problem. The overdrive feature is pretty harsh on the transmission. If you want overdrive to be pitched correctly then you're under-pitched for normal use. For racing the 2-blade Gori is hard to beat for drag. But it, too, is kinda wimpy in forward. We didn’t have reverse in 25+ knots of wind with the new 2-blade racing Gori. A little spooky. We were doing 4 knots and accelerating (forward) in reverse. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you. I am installing new 3 blade Gori's on a Stealth 13m after much discussion/research.  The overdrive function will probably never get used, as cruising distance can be achieved by running just one engine. Curious as to why you feel it's harsh on the trans? Hard on the engine, maybe, you need to be careful on revs. Taking off a pair of Radice Elice 2 blades that are well under pitched and have failing rubber inserts. AM Marine gave us a good price on the two new units, boat will be casually raced 1 - 2 times a year

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, soma said:

I got most of my list done. We added the line driver traveler. New sails. New standing rigging. New running rigging. SeaDek on deck and in the cockpit. I got rid of the generator, added new high output alternators. New wind generator. Painted (all of) the bilges. 

...

It’s great knowing we have a semi-autonomous mobile home. We sip diesel, make our own water, make our own electricity, and we can go where we want with all of our stuff. Border restrictions will lift eventually abs we’ll be cruising again. We love our “boat home”. 

 

Hi Soma,

Thanks for taking the time on such a thorough answer. It's really interesting to read about your experiences with your new boat, particularly the practicality and light air performance. Bit of a surprise to read about that structural failure up forward. I guess I was also under the impression that the tough offshore boat reputation was well deserved... Also a bit disappointing too that the bridge deck clearance isn't actually that great.

So you love the Antal line driver huh? I guess I need to sail with one to appreciate it 'cos I don't really get it. More complication, more power consumption, slower response (for easing anyway). I know it would look cool though! Have you got the traveller lines dead ended to an "Oh shit" clutch?

I am so impatient for the world to get back to something resembling normal so that I can go and visit a few more boats. I´m following three O55 Lights on the market and have been in touch with owners. I wouldn't necessarily have chosen a Light but the Std for sale here in Brisbane is in a real awful state and the other one in Western Australia is way overpriced. I was wondering if you had been aboard a Light and how you felt it compared to the Std? Does that 60cms make a big difference? I would think it does, since let's face it it's not a big boat in terms of volume to begin with!

Yeah I hear you about the best boat for the money. I kinda feel like I just need to go through the motions and that I already know an O55 is the way forward! There's just too big a jump to other performance oriented cats. I think an A55 would pretty much be the perfect boat for me, but that's a whole shit tonne more money!  I do love the forward cockpit, especially for long distance family cruising. Makes so much sense for safer solo watches, airflow, dividing the boat into different areas when at anchor etc. I sailed with PJ on Safari a bit years ago and have thought it to be an awesome idea ever since then.

I seem to remember reading somewhere you'd checked out an Atlantic 48 and decided it wasn't for you. I've only had a chance to crawl around one half way through a pretty big refit in a yard so it's hard for me to make a call. But the A48 would be a big stretch financially leaving less $$$ for improvements and continued cruising. What was it about the A48 you didn't like? I can't see a lot of storage for light but bulky stuff like kites, boards etc.

Then there's a Schionning or two that are outliers but I might take a look...

BTW what sails did you go for? Most of the boats I'm looking at need money spent in this department. Will you still be pursuing the longeron idea? I would love a few more headsail configurations than the basic O55 rig allows.

Thanks again for your time, it's awesome being able to pick the brain of someone that's just bought the boat I'm considering!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, soma said:

New wind generator.

...

 

I wouldn't mind all new solar panels. 1/2 are original and 1/2 are 10 years old. They work, but 3% annual increase in output adds up. You can never have enough electricity. I’d go for the D400 wind gen if I could do it again.

What wind gen you got and why would you opt for D400 instead? Silentwind would be lighter and there doesn't seem to be large difference in price nor output (but I didn't look too much into either of them).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Upp3 said:

What wind gen you got and why would you opt for D400 instead? Silentwind would be lighter and there doesn't seem to be large difference in price nor output (but I didn't look too much into either of them).

I got a SilentWind. Nothing silent about it. I’ve sat in my dinghy next several boats with SilentWinds and it seems mine is average for sound. The D400 is remarkably quieter. Plus, the 5(?) blade design of the D400 should be better. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are some shots of the installation. Pretty simple. The head of the driver is mounted above deck, the gearbox and motor are below deck. The head is bolted to a g10 deck bonded to the deck. The gearbox is bolted to a G10 plate that’s glued to the (vertical) aft bulkhead. You can see the rocker switch on the dashboard in the photo. The mainsheet is right behind me. The main is always on the winch behind the helm. The only hard part of the install was fairing the deck plate that the driver is mounted on to the deck.

As far as power consumption, it’s negligible. It’s a 1000 watt motor...but it only works 2 minutes a day (?) on average. That’s probably overstating it. The wire run is also very short. There’s a positive charging bus just below the driver, so we picked up off of that.

No “oh shit” clutch. Again, the mainsheet is the oh shit. 

AE044333-9038-43E2-9990-9EB2478AFC77.jpeg

A1B0D41B-ED3D-406E-8C0A-F0177737070C.jpeg

2D890DB4-A251-40F8-848F-90C821F68BE6.jpeg

0D2AEDA5-9698-4D4D-96D9-2716A24D33CA.jpeg

43CE9F58-5A33-4038-9D9F-4F5B7A702924.jpeg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/27/2020 at 4:52 AM, soma said:

I got most of my list done. We added the line driver traveler. New sails. New standing rigging. New running rigging. SeaDek on deck and in the cockpit. 

 

Hey Soma, I am curious what brand and material you went for with your sails? Did you do SS rigging or consider dyneema? How long do you expect the Seadek to last in the Tropics and what is the cost of it?  Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, NOCALSAILOR said:

Hey Soma, I am curious what brand and material you went for with your sails?

North cruising laminate  I love it so far  

2 hours ago, NOCALSAILOR said:

Did you do SS rigging or consider dyneema?

I went for Kevlar shrouds and nitronic diamonds and martingale. Dynea is great, I had it on Soma, but it’s too stretchy for diamonds and it’d be more expensive than Kevlar for the shrouds. It’s also pretty stretchy for shrouds. 

2 hours ago, NOCALSAILOR said:

How long do you expect the Seadek to last in the Tropics and what is the cost of it?  

I’ve put it on many boats now. Soma had it twice. I’ve put it on 3 GB62’s  you get about 5 years if you’re picky. You can stretch it to 7-8 if you aren’t too picky  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, soma said:

North cruising laminate  I love it so far  

I went for Kevlar shrouds and nitronic diamonds and martingale. Dynea is great, I had it on Soma, but it’s too stretchy for diamonds and it’d be more expensive than Kevlar for the shrouds. It’s also pretty stretchy for shrouds. 

I’ve put it on many boats now. Soma had it twice. I’ve put it on 3 GB62’s  you get about 5 years if you’re picky. You can stretch it to 7-8 if you aren’t too picky  

 

Did you consider the 3Di Nordac or Fibercon - Dyneema/ dacron woven cloth (can't remember other brand name)?

Does the Kevlar last longer with the cover than the Dyneema 5-8 yrs?

 

thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wiley's thoughts on the market here: 

A few interesting points: 

- sellers are usually retired, so don't really face the pressure of losing employment income. Charter sellers are in a very different boat from this perspective.

- timing of the hurricane season may create some distressed situations

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The best thing he said was 'I'm a yacht broker, not an economist, so only time will tell'. 

Similar sentiments re privately owned blue water cats vs charter cats here:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites