smackdaddy

SailGP 2020

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3 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Hey, light up another cigarette and don't  be so counterpunchy (to real or perceived affronts, especially when they are not even directed at you).  

Or if you own this thread and anything negative in it is thus a personal affront that must be addressed in a zealous way, well ok.  There is a market for "happy news."

PS since you are such an avid follower, of the 6 original Season 1 boats, how many were brand new? Old releases used to say 4, latest one wrt the award says 3. And which original boats got reworked? I seriously am curious. 

 

Are you talking about moving from the AC50s to the F50s? Don't know - don't care. Why would that matter anyway?

As for being "counterpunchy" - just be accurate and you won't get countered.

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No I was accurately referring to the AC50s that were reworked to be F50s.  Why do I care? Sentimental. I wonder where the USA17 hulls are. ♥️ 

 

 

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Again, what does that matter? Are you picking on the fact that one press release said 3 and another said 4? I just don't see the intrigue.

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Why do you say I see intrigue? 

I am interested in the history of the classes. So I am interested in what happened to the AC50s. Some people are interested in "AC Boats--Where Are They Now"

It is nice to think that 3 or 4 of the non-winning AC50s are not rotting in a boatyard somewhere like some of the IACC boats are.

We all know where ETNZ's is now. It's on the  wall of their base. It  is a matter of historical interest to at least one human on the planet (me) where the Oracle, Artemus, SoftBank, Groupama and LandRover BAR boats are.

 

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Fair enough. I suppose I've been around the insanity of the AC forum long enough to assume there is some conspiratorial intrigue underneath every statement. And I've been around there for only a few months now. It's a special place.

So, I wonder when NZ will field a SailGP team? Heh.

 

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4 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Fair enough. I suppose I've been around the insanity of the AC forum long enough to assume there is some conspiratorial intrigue underneath every statement. And I've been around there for only a few months now. It's a special place.

So, I wonder when NZ will field a SailGP team? Heh.

 

We don’t need them or want them to have a SGP team, every time they get involved in cats they fk it up and take it back to mono’s, they assured everyone they were voting for Tornado’s in the Olympics but blindsided cats out of the Olympics and as soon as they won the AC they changed that back to mono’s. 

On a better note well done on Sail GP winning boat of the year 

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Hi Everybody,

Sorry to interupt your discussion, I am just looking for a rought idea of the apparent wind speed on these boats when they achieve the 50 knts, 

Thanks in advance

EK

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There was a little lag in the app but iirc it was in the 22.2-22.4 knot range. It was right at the finish line. That wind speed was what the indication was on the Australia boat display. 

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Thanks NAC, but I guess you are mentionning the true wind speed, I am looking for apparent wind speed, probably higher than the boat speed so I guess something around 70 knts, but I d love to have confirmation

Cheers

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Ah misread. Sorry. You could ask SailGP. They are pretty responsive on social media.

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It's a good question wanker. The app measures windspeed as you can see here with this AUS finish in Cowes...

IMG_0473.png

And if you touch the wind item you get this explanation...

IMG_0474.png

So true wind. And I haven't seen an AWS readout anywhere in the app yet.

But we can get a pretty close calculation. Looking at the umpire window we can see the wind is coming from 229°. So backing the boat's heading off by around 60° from that as shown on the compass and taking that speed reading there, you'd get something like this...

Screen-Shot-2019-10-31-at-4.43.32-PM.png

Then looking at it upwind...

IMG_0475.png

You'd have something like this...

Screen-Shot-2019-10-31-at-4.30.34-PM.png

If you've ever ridden a motorcycle you can imagine the wind noise. And you can see why good comms are so important for the teamwork.

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4 hours ago, Erwankerauzen said:

The wanker thanks you very much

Cheers

EK

It is a great user name I must say: Erwankerauzen

As for SailGP - I'm a fan.

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5 hours ago, Erwankerauzen said:

Are you stake holder in the SailGP organization ??

he's the owner!

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Jeez Clean - you follow me around like a freakin' groupie...only you're old and bald...which just makes it creepy.

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3 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Jeez Clean - you follow me around like a freakin' groupie...only you're old and bald...which just makes it creepy.

Scot used to tell me i was like the security guard at a landfill.  Always watching the trash.

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1 minute ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Scot used to tell me i was like the security guard at a landfill.  Always watching the trash.

Whatever foils your moth I guess. Just not my thing to follow people around like that. I just start/post-in threads I'm interested in - doing my homework along the way - and providing a unique perspective. And there always seems to be interest.

So, maybe contribute something to the topic. I mean, I can't possibly believe that you're just trolling here.

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26 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

I can't possibly believe that you're just trolling here.

:huh:

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Some incredible drone work here - and lots of great comments...

Screen-Shot-2019-11-01-at-1.05.15-PM.png

 

USA does a stellar job on their production and social efforts. This isn't your average sailing media.

PS - based on the AWS shown above, imagine that run across to the other hull - and add in some Gs too. These aren't your average sailors.

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Thank you Alan for the confirmation. 

 

Smackdaddy

To be honest, regarding SailGP organization, my feeling is a bit mixed.

1-On one hand, I would have think that to stop sailing these amazing Cat after the Cup would have been a hudge garbage, and to some extend I am very happy these incredible boats can continue to exist and race.

2-On the other hand, as a retired A-Cater (probably in the third league) I feel that this opportunistic resurrection is likely to cast some shadow on the AC, and therefore, not very positive for AC people, especially Glenn Ashby.

So before to suscribe to Sail GP I would wait to meet Glenn again, and if he confirms that there is no political craps in this project then I will suscribe.

Last time it was in Erquy /France, he was attending  the F18 world in ......2010.

But if you hire me to manage your company assets I might change my  mind

Erwan Kerauzen, CFA  

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3 minutes ago, Erwankerauzen said:

Thank you Alan for the confirmation. 

 

Smackdaddy

To be honest, regarding SailGP organization, my feeling is a bit mixed.

1-On one hand, I would have think that to stop sailing these amazing Cat after the Cup would have been a hudge garbage, and to some extend I am very happy these incredible boats can continue to exist and race.

2-On the other hand, as a retired A-Cater (probably in the third league) I feel that this opportunistic resurrection is likely to cast some shadow on the AC, and therefore, not very positive for AC people, especially Glenn Ashby.

So before to suscribe to Sail GP I would wait to meet Glenn again, and if he confirms that there is no political craps in this project then I will suscribe.

Last time it was in Erquy /France, he was attending  the F18 world in ......2010.

But if you hire me to manage your company assets I might change my  mind

Erwan Kerauzen, CFA  

As per the bold part - funny how that works, eh? Heh.

Feel free to forward your CV to the organization. I'm sure it will be thoroughly reviewed and vetted per standard protocols.

As for the mixed feelings, I get it. But I think it's extremely misguided. The BMW/Oracle stewardship of the AC obviously brought about drastic changes. And those changes during that time, though difficult for some other teams to swallow, were very well received by the most important stakeholders: the public. From the cats themselves, to the well-followed ACWS events, to the Challenger Cup, to the finals.

To expect, as many seem to, all that innovation and appeal to be chucked after the AC event is ridiculous. The AC and all its politics went it's way with ETNZ, and SailGP has gone its way in a fresh direction. They are completely different boats, events, etc. with completely different goals and outcomes. So any "political craps" at this point is purely sour grapes.

Why is SailGP not positive for Glenn Ashby?

 

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Genuine question.  How does one compare public "reception" of the 2013 and 2017 America's Cup matches to the IACC era and account for the effect of boats and Defenders, given population growth, changes in dissemination technologies (TV, Internet, social media) and such?  

 

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

Genuine question.  How does one compare public "reception" of the 2013 and 2017 America's Cup matches to the IACC era and account for the effect of boats and Defenders, given population growth, changes in dissemination technologies (TV, Internet, social media) and such?  

 

Subjectively

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2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Genuine question.  How does one compare public "reception" of the 2013 and 2017 America's Cup matches to the IACC era and account for the effect of boats and Defenders, given population growth, changes in dissemination technologies (TV, Internet, social media) and such?  

 

The same old numbers - reach and engagement. The technological means of both of those continue to grow at an astronomical pace - yet that obviously doesn't translate into actual public interest/reception on its own. So the question is - is an event doing a good job of leveraging that technological (and, just as importantly, demographic) growth/shift with great, compelling "content". I don't think there is any doubt that AC34 and AC35 provided compelling content - specifically via the very close racing in AC34 that garnered international acclaim - and the ACWS events on either side of that (Bermuda blew it just because of the boring racing).

You clearly saw this shift way back in 2012 for AC34 (from the NYTimes):

Quote

Two years ago the officials who run the America’s Cup made an important decision: they were going to change professional sailing into a sport that was actually fun to watch.

This was a big shift for a sport that has traditionally been indifferent to the idea of an audience. But new revenue was needed to help sailing teams struggling to raise the tens of millions of dollars for building and sailing the boats for the Cup, so the organization decided to chase the broadcast television deals and sponsorships that are the lifeblood of many other sports.

The basic strategy was to add speed and danger to sailing by using winged catamarans, boats that move much faster, but also capsize easily, and holding races close to shore, where wind patterns are less predictable.

The America’s Cup will get its first chance to test its product with a United States audience this weekend, when a part of the World Series race in Newport, R.I., will be broadcast on NBC. This is the first time a professional sailing race will be shown live on a major American network in 20 years.

These were the seeds of SailGP. And it continued with AC35 (from The Economist):

Quote

NOT for nothing is it known as the “Auld Mug”. No international sporting trophy has been contested for as long as the America’s Cup, a prize coveted by yacht clubs around the world. This year’s edition, which begins on June 17th in Bermuda, is the 35th since the ornate silver jug was first awarded in 1851. Seasoned mariners see the venerable competition, which takes place every three or four years, as perhaps the most important in the sport’s calendar. Yet for most of its history the America’s Cup has been a plodding affair unfolding in slow motion, like a tactical chess game, with little appeal for landlubbers. Not any more. This year’s championship is more like the high-octane rush of Formula One (F1) motorsport than a ponderous regatta.

Both of these are "mainstream" publications - much more closely mirroring the "public's" view of things than the sailing world's view of things. There are many, many more like them.

So, we now clearly see the growing interest in SailGP, flowing and growing from Season 1 into Season 2 which starts in just 117 days. This is the affordability, consistency, and frequency of the high-octane racing envisioned 7 years ago. And as I said, it's a completely different animal than the AC as it had been traditionally and as it has now become again.

So, we'll have to see what happens with AC36 in terms of reach and engagement when it finally happens. The problems solved with the above approach are clearly back with AC36, teams can't afford to participate, consistency and frequency are gone again - but at least it has the potential to not be a "plodding affair unfolding in slow motion" is there. Thank the Doug Lord for foils.

All that said, I'm still trying to figure out why SailGP is bad for Ashby.

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3 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

The BMW/Oracle stewardship of the AC obviously brought about drastic changes. And those changes during that time, though difficult for some other teams to swallow, were very well received by the most important stakeholders: the public. 

 

But there are more people in 2013 and 2017 than in 2000, 2003, 2007. More people could see AC races live or replay via more means TV (broadcast, cable,satellite), Internet, social media).  So how do you calculate a comparison for reach and engagement.  Is reach potential to see and engagement seeing?  More people had potential in the 2013/2017 and more saw but how do you measure greater "reception given they had a chance to see" and how do you attribute it to the boats and Defender as opposed to technological change in viewability?

I don't  doubt more people watched 34 and 35 but if we had streaming video and satellite and fiber to the home (not the home dial up I had till 2008) ...and 500 tv channels...in 2000 to 2007....?

PS Paul Cayard and his "hold your proper course" were pretty exciting.

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3 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

But there are more people in 2013 and 2017 than in 2000, 2003, 2007. More people could see AC races live or replay via more means TV (broadcast, cable,satellite), Internet, social media).  So how do you calculate a comparison for reach and engagement.  Is reach potential to see and engagement seeing?  More people had potential in the 2013/2017 and more saw but how do you measure greater "reception given they had a chance to see" and how do you attribute it to the boats and Defender as opposed to technological change in viewability?

I don't  doubt more people watched 34 and 35 but if we had streaming video and satellite and fiber to the home (not the home dial up I had till 2008) ...and 500 tv channels...in 2000 to 2007....?

PS Paul Cayard and his "hold your proper course" were pretty exciting.

I guess I don't see your point. How does population growth factor into reach and engagement of an event? Back in the 60's there were only 3 broadcast stations in the US if I recall, and their viewership numbers were off the charts despite the fact that there was a smaller population. Again, how do you extrapolate all the variables for that based on your above scenario?

The simplest indicator for what we're talking about here is the growth of the same event over time - and factoring that with the growth of channels and shift of demographics as you go. If the overall reach and engagement stay roughly the same as channels and demographics drastically shift - you're screwed (see broadcast tv, music industry, NFL, etc.).

So for your premise: "I don't  doubt more people watched 34 and 35 but if we had streaming video and satellite and fiber to the home (not the home dial up I had till 2008) ...and 500 tv channels...in 2000 to 2007....?" I'm not sure practical math exists - beyond the quantum level of course - to solve the puzzle you're presenting.

 

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So maybe I don't understand "reach" and "engagement" definitions?

I am guessing reach is somehow related to number of people or percentage of population that could see it. How does one attribute an increase or decrease across time to the characteristics of an event when other things change?  

Same for engagement, is that number or percentage that did see it? Same puzzlement. How does one say if there is a change it's just due to characteristics of the event?

You don't have to explain if you don't want to.

I am just explaining I had questions, not "a point."

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It's a fairly complex issue because different channels/platforms/outlets/etc. have different ways of defining them. That's why I took some time to explain the SailGP numbers/terms above.

There's lots of info out there on this stuff if you're really interested. But I don't want to get into all that here. Way too much work. Clean can probably help you with it. He's an expert.

He can likely provide you specific numbers - but just as a back-of-the-napkin example that's relevant here, the 2013 AC finals event had a global television audience of ~500M - with between 1M and 2M in attendance. That's pretty impressive for any sailing event ever. But more to the point here, the 2015-16 ACWS events (8 of them I think) following that SF final, had average attendance of ~100K-200K each, with very high Earned Media Impressions in the US and Europe. So, it's clear there was tremendous value in the ACWS itself - and that style of event.

These numbers can give you some kind of benchmark for measuring SailGP as we go forward. Now the ACWS obviously had the huge benefit of a 170-year-old brand behind it and SailGP is completely new, so you have to factor that in. But the vision for this kind of racing, which has now gone by the wayside for the AC itself, obviously had/has huge appeal as we continue to see. Why on earth would anyone just chuck something they've built which is showing so much potential value?

It remains to be seen if AC36 will achieve the kind of numbers we saw with AC34. Maybe it will. But as I've said it's a very different animal, which is why I think all the political whinging is as misguided as it is petty.

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Thanks. I guess I thought you were comparing to the IACC era in #124. 

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SD,

According to all what is above written, I understand that these incredible boats combined to new IT means have created a great opportunity to bring a new attractive sport show to a larger audience worlwide. At least a bit more spectacular than during Big Bad Denis' career.(I euphemize)

As Big Media Audience = Big Money, and if I project myself a few year in the future I can easily imagine that SailGP20 will undermine the Cup audience, and the related revenues, even before the begining of the cup, as sponsors are likely to have the same analysis.

In addition, it will create a kind of confusion in the brain of the new audience recently brought  to this sport, so it can also undermine the long run future of the Cup.

So you can understand, (and it is not an allegation, just an assumption),  SailGP can be view as a wicked project from a bunch of  greedy bastards.

Planning to compete with AC audience, looks like if you try to build up  your bargaining power. 

One might also imagine that, sooner or later, the AC authorithies would HAVE TO solve the issue by a take over on SailGP organization. When this holly time will come you will pocket all your stock options.

So after creating an attrition process on the AC media incomes, your wicked project will also lead to a looting of AC equity capital.

Any PE or HF companies in SailGP equity capital?

 Is the list of stake holders disclosed somewhere?  

In other words, I could consider you have your dirty hands in Glenn Ashby's wallet, among others.

I feel confident that you will consider that smells a little bit like the plot theory of a Geeky Wanker, you might be right as honestly I have noideas of the nature and magnitude of the interests behind SailGP organization .

 The only greviance I would mention:  I would love to have access to full replay without registration in Facebook or similar, just a free Youtube replay even much later would be perfect.

You can notice, today, I am making a hudge writing efforts  to feed your SailGp thread, I don't want you  account for 80% of the messages.

Since I give you a crystal clear picture of what I have in my mind, I would dare to ask you a more serious question about these boat's performances.

I guess that from the design table (screen)  to the data analysis of sailing sessions, all these rocket scientists may have elaborated, defined, new kind of efficiency ratios, like

VMG/True wind* COS(???)

it is a stupid example, which means nothing, but I am sure you understand the question.

I hope you can provide an answer to this crucial question for me otherwise

The Geeky Wanker I am, can't get no satisfaction.

Thanks for reading

 

To Alan

Last time in Falmouth I could not address positively your kind request,  but as "regulatory framework" is moving in Europe too, while much slower than in North America, with some luck, next time we meet, It might be different.

Cheers

GeekyWanker

 

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Wow - that's quite a tale there wanker. I obviously think it's largely a pretty silly viewpoint - but you have every right to have it. I'll just deal with a few tidbits...

2 hours ago, Erwankerauzen said:

As Big Media Audience = Big Money, and if I project myself a few year in the future I can easily imagine that SailGP20 will undermine the Cup audience, and the related revenues, even before the begining of the cup, as sponsors are likely to have the same analysis.

Only if the AC changes direction and tries to compete with SailGP with its own annual, global event like ElliCoutts dreamed up.

In addition, it will create a kind of confusion in the brain of the new audience recently brought  to this sport, so it can also undermine the long run future of the Cup.

Audiences aren't that stupid.

So you can understand, (and it is not an allegation, just an assumption),  SailGP can be view as a wicked project from a bunch of  greedy bastards.

I have no idea who would reasonably hold this view and why - but if that viewpoint was to come from the AC it would be seriously laughable.

One might also imagine that, sooner or later, the AC authorithies would HAVE TO solve the issue by a take over on SailGP organization.

Who exactly are these "AC Authorities" and how exactly will they "take over SailGP"? That would be a very interesting thesis.

So after creating an attrition process on the AC media incomes, your wicked project will also lead to a looting of AC equity capital.

I'd say the "AC Authorities" are doing a pretty good job of that all by themselves right now. Have you seen the numbers? And it has nothing to do with SailGP.

In other words, I could consider you have your dirty hands in Glenn Ashby's wallet, among others.

Then the AC's business model is all wrong. Another way to look at it is you now have 30 (now more) professional sailors and all their supporting personnel making a living doing what they love - with annual stability. I'm sure Glenn would support that. Or are you saying he's a "greedy bastard"?

 The only greviance I would mention:  I would love to have access to full replay without registration in Facebook or similar, just a free Youtube replay even much later would be perfect.

That's what the app is for. It has everything you want.

You can notice, today, I am making a hudge writing efforts  to feed your SailGp thread, I don't want you  account for 80% of the messages.

Though it seems to bother Clean and a few others, I don't really care about that. If you don't want to write - don't write. It won't stop me from doing what I do.

Since I give you a crystal clear picture of what I have in my mind, I would dare to ask you a more serious question about these boat's performances.

I guess that from the design table (screen)  to the data analysis of sailing sessions, all these rocket scientists may have elaborated, defined, new kind of efficiency ratios, like

VMG/True wind* COS(???)

it is a stupid example, which means nothing, but I am sure you understand the question.

I hope you can provide an answer to this crucial question for me otherwise

From what I recall there are over 800 sensors on every boat feeding 1200 data streams via LTE to ALL THE TEAMS. Everyone has the same stuff. If you're really interested and have deeper questions about this data, you should ask Emiley Nagel. She's in your neck of the woods I believe. And she certainly seems to understand rockets.

 

 

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Just to note that for the rank and file sailors at least, SGP is a parttime job, part but certainly not all of "making a living." Maybe the principals are paid differently but for example France's new grinder will get paid for 60 days in 2020.  Contracts may be year to year, not clear. France and UK have publicized searches for new members.

https://sailgp.com/fr/about/bestjob/

 

 

 

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Sorry to upset you, but remember I tried to use conditionnal most of the time, No connexion with AC, this plot theory emerged spontaneoulsy from my brain after you brought a new reading of my username.

It is more a matter to animate the thread, by this kind of plot theory, I was expecting other people would have posted, I am a bit dissapointed on this matter.

You know here it is a rainny Saturday, and I cannot spend all my day wanking on porn websites, I prefer Sail Porn on SailingAnarchy.

I repeat, I have no idea of the actual interests behind SailGP,  I didn't look for Balance sheet or income statements.

I mention AC organization/Authorities as a generic name, here again I have no idea what are the status of the AC, if they are a LLC or listed company on the NYSE ....

Just a wanker's plot theory to bring animation by your side.

The only important question is

Have you any Private Equity Funds or Hedge Funds in Sail GP capital ?

Thank for Emiley Nagel, you seems to have a good Rollodex at SailGP. thanks for sharing.

Cheers

EK

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NeedAClew,

Do You means SailGP has a cheap Labor strategy ? It is unfair competition.

I am joking, I think the issue is to find skilled crews, provide them with enough opportunities for efficient training, in order to have a good competition.

A boat per nation, would be ideal, necessary to bring at least Italian, Spanish and German boats....

Now I will stop to troll the troll.

Cheers

 

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NeedAClew,

I have a great candidate for this job, his experience matches almost perfectly the requirements of the position, and it is easy to get in touch with him on SA.

He is a successful startuper too, His name is Alan Bloch , not sure for the spelling of his name, I hope he will forgive that.

Happy week end to all, It is almost the end of Happy Hour I have to rush

Cheers to all including SailGP

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Now wanker, Clean is not a "troll". He's been behaving himself.

As some background on the above, this Forbes article is a good primer:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesayles/2019/10/08/sir-russell-coutts-predicts-bright-future-for-sailgp-after-successful-inaugural-series-of-global-sailing-event/#fcecfb4250d3

You can see how Draper is viewing his CEO role - how that affects their team's future in regards to financial support - how it drives them to want to improve and win even more - how SailGP relates to previous series like ESS - and, to Clew's comment, how GBR had 95 responses to a single crew-needed advertisement.

SailGP is doing exactly what it was envisioned to do and is providing a great new path for global sailing. It's really that simple. And it seems all the complaining and naysaying is coming from a smaller and smaller group at the bottom of the crab bucket. That's success for you.

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Heh. Yeah.

I'm not sure how I can be the "troll" when I'm replying to your comments within the thread I started. But whatever.

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On 10/31/2019 at 9:53 PM, smackdaddy said:

It's a good question wanker. The app measures windspeed as you can see here with this AUS finish in Cowes...

IMG_0473.png

And if you touch the wind item you get this explanation...

IMG_0474.png

So true wind. And I haven't seen an AWS readout anywhere in the app yet.

But we can get a pretty close calculation. Looking at the umpire window we can see the wind is coming from 229°. So backing the boat's heading off by around 60° from that as shown on the compass and taking that speed reading there, you'd get something like this...

Screen-Shot-2019-10-31-at-4.43.32-PM.png

Then looking at it upwind...

IMG_0475.png

You'd have something like this...

Screen-Shot-2019-10-31-at-4.30.34-PM.png

If you've ever ridden a motorcycle you can imagine the wind noise. And you can see why good comms are so important for the teamwork.

Where are you getting the heading readings from? According to what you state, the boats are going "downwind" at 60TWA in your first calculation, and upwind at 15TWA in your second. 60TWA isn't downwind, and nothing goes upwind at 15TWA without an engine. The graphics from the app are showing approx. 120TWA and 35TWA.

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Yep - you're right about the angles. So making that adjustment it looks like you'd have somewhere in the range of 41 and 44 knots of AW respectively according to that basic calculator.

 

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I mean SailGP is a bit a troll for AC. Sorry if I ruffle a little your feather with these stupid plot theory and I apologize.

More seriously, regarding sailing audience on TV , I noticed surprising points

In my favorite Irish pub in Paris, most of the customers are American expatriates, journalist, lawyers, bankers.

Despite the incredible progress in filming the races in SF, bringing to the public a great spectacular show (at least imho) I was almost shocked to discover that most of the American didn't even know the races had started in SF (in 2013)

Same remark for the last cup, they prefered to watch UK football league, than USA vs ETNZ. Ironically the only guy who was interested was a frenchy who used to sail Hobie Cat 17.

I wonder if to some extend, the audience for sailing is not limited by the number of person involved in the sport.

With a limited audience, I cannot imagine that SailGP is not in competition with AC for market shares.

One can guess there is also "ego issue" ?

That's what I means. 

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To be fair Erwankerhausen, has the America’s cup ever gone to such a small field of contenders with a probably slower boat than the previous cycle in its history, the Americas cup somehow needs to keep its flame alight with those two factors in play for three years of no racing in its cycle, whilst the SGP is racing every year making improvements on their boats, keeping their audience. Most SGP fans like me will tune into the AC but if it’s slow with only one front runner, don’t expect me to hang around to watch a one horse race and Glenn “who I have had design and make sails for me in the past but couldn’t afford now” is always welcome to sail in SGP

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I think Mad did a great job answering the question/aspersions at hand.

But, just to remind people where/how this all started, here is a 7 year-old-article from "Wired" laying out Larry Ellison's original vision (prior to AC34) and how it began - both good and bad...

https://www.wired.com/2012/08/ff_americascup_ellison/

Quote

When Ellison won the Cup in 2010, he also won the right to run the next event his way. He wanted it, as BMW Oracle Racing CEO Russell Coutts famously put it, “to meet the expectations of the Facebook generation, not the Flintstones generation.” That meant radical changes in a race celebrated for its links to yachting’s grand traditions.

Putting it all together would take time, though. For starters there was some concern that there were not enough sailors in the world experienced with wing sails to float a full fleet. And audiences needed to be attracted to the show. To fix both problems, Ellison created the America’s Cup World Series as a run-up to the main event.

ff_americascup_ellisonb_f.jpg

Look familiar?

And as to what this has all become under LaRuss' leadership...my sons and I sail even our old 1973 17' beachcat faster than ARTR is going here. And the F50s are now sailing 2.5X the speed of LR-P.

The only "ego issue" that's relevant here is from those who think the AC should be the only game in town.

It isn't - nor should it be.

And, as Mad rightly points out, unless it improves - it will go right back to the plodding, elite affair that only rates an obscure blurb in the Social section of print newspapers every 3-4 years...and then ends up at the bottom of the bird cage in the old-folks home.

Meanwhile...

Quote

Ellison’s grand plan, which has always been to democratize his sport, has so far handed him some big defeats. The first was at the hands of San Francisco’s city government, the second at the hands of NBC. But with LiveLine, Ellison may have gotten even more than he hoped for. He ordered up a software package of crowd-pleasing bells and whistles. Honey gave him an operating system for an entire sport. For all the chaos that ensued in Venice, LiveLine was a success: The boats may have crashed, but the system didn’t.

The following race, in Newport, Rhode Island, earned a 0.9 Nielsen rating—beating out the same weekend’s Tour de France coverage.

...and, seven years later - a pretty solid and ongoing victory. That's what it's about.

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13 hours ago, madboutcats said:

has the America’s cup ever gone to such a small field of contenders with a probably slower boat than the previous cycle in its history

I think that's the key point. Is the AC going to a slower, less interesting format?

Both SailGP and AC are compelling, and I don't expect they'll race the same day at the same time, so it's fair to say it's not a big deal to watch both. The true competition is for sponsors and sailors. And I think sponsors and sailors get a lot more out of the SailGP format than with the AC format. More races, frequent races, close races, more teams, more screen time.

If I was a professional sailor, 4 years of buildup to a race where you might lose just by having the wrong boat design... must be maddening.

It's the frequent racing that will pull them through, I think - and hope.

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2 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

I think that's the key point. Is the AC going to a slower, less interesting format?

It's the frequent racing that will pull them [SailGP] through

I honestly think that the AC75s should be able to get very close to the 50 knot mark like the F50s (if not even exceed it). Of course, that depends on whatever wind limits are set. But with the foiling, there's really no reason they shouldn't (multi vs mono doesn't matter then) - and there's a lot of power in that 75'. I think the main question will be the effect the stability (and/or lack thereof) will have on the racing itself. I do think this mechanical foil arm direction will be a one-off. It's just too ridiculous in pretty much every way to warrant wider adoption. After all, it's made the traditional close-in match racing (the thing they said they wanted to return to) impossible due to the danger of having these clumsy cleavers slicing through the air. But at least it's an interesting novelty for now.

The most important factor though, for EVERYONE involved, is your last sentence. If SailGP continues to grow like this - the best talent will continue to gravitate toward it, precisely because it's a predictable, annual season (unlike the AC). So, if there is any drain that SailGP will have on the AC - it's not going to be viewers, it's going to be talent. Of course, when that happens, AC will just have to fight that much harder for both. As it should be.

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Mad,

My Wanker approach put aside; like any reasonnable person I am pretty happy SailGP provide these incredible 50' cats an opportunity to remain in the sailing landscape.

It is clear that OTUSA, as a defender has made a great job, bringing the cup to another level, both for technological development and broadcasting quality.

After 2 iterations I believe( It is an assumption) that the foiling cat with wing,  has achieved most of its potential, so no big performance gain to be expected, and the "one design" makes a lot of sense.

Now put yourself in the position of the new defender: It becomes very difficult to come with an innovative concept.

Probably for the reasons just mentionned, and if the defender has a "traditional commitment" to innovation, it cannot be a catamaran.

Each concept has its own merits. Even if this new monohull is a little slower than the 50', I don't think it is an issue.

Also I noticed around me, for the man in the street, there is no significant difference between a classic catamaran flying one hull and a foiler catamaran with both hulls out of the water. Only geeks like me find it is awesome. 

So maybe a flying monohull would be more attractive for the man in the street and increase the audience of the sport.

Cheers

EK 

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1 hour ago, Erwankerauzen said:

Mad,

My Wanker approach put aside; like any reasonnable person I am pretty happy SailGP provide these incredible 50' cats an opportunity to remain in the sailing landscape.

It is clear that OTUSA, as a defender has made a great job, bringing the cup to another level, both for technological development and broadcasting quality.

After 2 iterations I believe( It is an assumption) that the foiling cat with wing,  has achieved most of its potential, so no big performance gain to be expected, and the "one design" makes a lot of sense.

Now put yourself in the position of the new defender: It becomes very difficult to come with an innovative concept.

Probably for the reasons just mentionned, and if the defender has a "traditional commitment" to innovation, it cannot be a catamaran.

Each concept has its own merits. Even if this new monohull is a little slower than the 50', I don't think it is an issue.

Also I noticed around me, for the man in the street, there is no significant difference between a classic catamaran flying one hull and a foiler catamaran with both hulls out of the water. Only geeks like me find it is awesome. 

So maybe a flying monohull would be more attractive for the man in the street and increase the audience of the sport.

Cheers

EK 

Don't drag me into this! :P

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4 hours ago, Erwankerauzen said:

 

So maybe a flying monohull would be more attractive for the man in the street and increase the audience of the sport.

Cheers

EK 

Revisit: http://sailinganarchy.libsyn.com/26-now-its-his-turn-americas-cup-winner-grant-dalton-tells-all-after-ac36-protocol-released-or-at-least-a-lot

 

 

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"I became a New Zealand supporter mostly out of spite, I guess." - Clean

What exactly "went south" between you and Oracle after you were "embedded" in Valencia? You've already mentioned your "principled" hatred of Ellison. And I mean, being a fan out of spite is your business, but it certainly skews anything you have to say about SailGP...which should obviously be taken with a huge grain of salt - and bitters.

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1 minute ago, smackdaddy said:

 

What exactly "went south" between you and Oracle 

Learned what Russell was all about.  Researched the hell out of Larry and learned what he was all about.  All ego, no ethics.  Two peas in a pod.

 

 

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No. That's not the story.

You're presenting it here like you had some kind of "moral control" over the situation. Learning and researching doesn't get you "banned" from future events. I honestly don't really care. That was a long time ago. But what you're saying doesn't past the sniff test.

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Just now, smackdaddy said:

 

You're presenting it here like you had some kind of "moral control" over the situation. 

You're talking gibberish again

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17 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

You're talking gibberish again

So you "learned and researched" about Russell Coutts and Larry Ellison toward the end of the Valencia races - and found them both, by your accounting, to be morally deficient; specifically egocentric and unethical. And this "discovery" led you to being denied credentials in SF and "banned" from the media center?

Okay. Whatever you say.

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15 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

So you "learned and researched" about Russell Coutts and Larry Ellison toward the end of the Valencia races - and found them both, by your accounting, to be morally deficient; specifically egocentric and unethical. And this "discovery" led you to being denied credentials in SF and "banned" from the media center?

Okay. Whatever you say.

No, I met and spoke with Russell multiple times, finding him to be an arrogant, egotistical, and two-faced prick.  Larry is commonly known as an arrogant, egotistical, two-faced prick and the half dozen books and articles I read about him reinforced what I had learned in person.

I don't know how you got from there to your second sentence though.  Spamdaddy logic?

 

 

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14 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

No, I met and spoke with Russell multiple times, finding him to be an arrogant, egotistical, and two-faced prick.  Larry is commonly known as an arrogant, egotistical, two-faced prick and the half dozen books and articles I read about him reinforced what I had learned in person.

I don't know how you got from there to your second sentence though.  Spamdaddy logic?

It's very simple...first, to be completely honest, you finding leaders at the pinnacle of the sport to be arrogant, egotistical, and two-faced is pretty ironic right there. Many of those traits have been your and SA's longstanding schtick since the get-go. And that's fine. As you know, that's usually what it takes to "blow the status-quo", be it the sailing events themselves or the sailing media covering them.

But one doesn't get banned from the AC for simply having a moralistic epiphany. So I'm guessing there's a bit more to the story of why you're "beating the NZ drum".

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4 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

It's very simple...first, to be completely honest,

 

Spamdaddy if you knew how to be honest, everyone on the sailing internet wouldn't hate you.

 

So I'm guessing there's a bit more to the story.

Guessing is the province of those who are unable to find the facts. Carry on.

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Did anyone really get banned from the AC in SF??? I thought, it was just a denied accreditation request. Wow, big deal here.

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1 minute ago, Rennmaus said:

Did anyone really get banned from the AC in SF??? I thought, it was just a denied accreditation request. Wow, big deal here.

Listen to the first couple of minutes of the podcast Clean linked. Those are his words so you can take it up with him.

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7 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Listen to the first couple of minutes of the podcast Clean linked. Those are his words so you can take it up with him.

Banned in Bermuda from the media center and any press conferences, they told me 'you are of course welcome to purchase a public ticket'.  I posted the email banning me on the front page and after the NYT, AP, and AFP called to ask Ruschy for comment about it, the silly PR folks sheepishly sent a pass over to the hotel.  Fortunately Dalts had already gotten me a VIP pass, an invitation to work out of their base, and a full set of kit.  It was a nice win before a very nice win. 

I played it up for a few extra days though, I admit.  It's not every day you have actual evidence of being banned from the AC.

I was never banned from SF, I was just refused accreditation. I only applied because I saw a post from Photoboy that his site had been denied accreditation despite being a legitimate website, based in SF, run by a professional sailing photog who'd been kissing OTUSA ass for months.  I was shocked he'd been denied, so I applied too just to see what they said, including our website and social numbers as compared to the rest of the sailing media.  

 

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10 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Did anyone really get banned from the AC in SF??? I thought, it was just a denied accreditation request. Wow, big deal here.

It's just spamdaddy.  He doesn't have a whole lot to do during the day, and he's allergic to studying, reading, and research.

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Banned in Bermuda.  I posted the email on the front page and after the NYT, AP, and AFP called to ask Ruschy for comment about it, they sheepishly sent a pass over to the hotel.  Fortunately Dalts had already gotten me a VIP pass, an invitation to work out of their base, and a full set of kit.

I played it up for a few extra days though, I admit.  It's not every day you have actual evidence of being banned from the AC.

I was never banned from SF, I was just refused accreditation. I only applied because I saw a post from Photoboy that his site had been denied accreditation despite being a legitimate website, based in SF, run by a professional sailing photog who'd been kissing OTUSA ass for months.  I was shocked he'd been denied, so I applied too just to see what they said, including our website and social numbers as compared to the rest of the sailing media.  

 

But you're only listing what they did. What did you do to warrant those actions?

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2 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

But you're only listing what they did. What did you do to warrant those actions?

Dunno, they didn't tell me.  

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1 minute ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Dunno, they didn't tell me.  

Maybe you should research.

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27 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Maybe you should research.

Na, I'm good.

 

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That interview has lots of interesting tidbits - at least the first bit I could actually make it through. But based on the intro where Clean gingerly states that he'll give GD the benefit of the doubt because "GD is a man's-man and his fingernails are bloody" (or something like that) - yet challenge him where appropriate...I'm curious what his challenge has been since on this particular item regarding their vision for the mono...
 

Quote

GD: "We need to prove a concept that ultimately could be the concept that you would see in monohulls 5-10 years from now. I wanna see junior versions of this screaming around the harbors of the world in a few years time."

How is that working out?

DSC_7594.jpg

(Note the amateur multis in the background and the professional mono underwater.)

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9 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:


 

How is that working out?

 

 

guess we'll find out in a few years time

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Finished the interview while I was darning my socks. Pretty interesting, I must say. And congrats to @Stingray~ for being an NZ needle-mover!

One of the most telling aspects of the mentality in which the AC is steeped (or mired), along with most of the sailing media that always surrounds it - is Grant's repeated references to "The Fraternity". I understand why he's using the term - but it also belies the deep-seated problems that have always held sailing back from more general public interest and adoption. "The Fraternity" is an incestuous world that can do nothing but shrivel as time goes by with costs that keep rising and less and less people actually wanting to be in it.

The biggest evidence for this shift that we've seen over the past few years is the explosive growth of millennials buying sailboats and taking off cruising all over the world - with their YouTube channels garnering millions of followers and hundreds-of-millions of views (something most major sailing events can only dream of). This generation could care less what "The Fraternity" thinks about them. They don't need to be "accepted" or "inside".

So, really "The Fraternity" itself is a seriously outmoded concept in this modern world. It is dying - if not dead already. And it has been killing the sport for a long time. Yet it STILL drives ETNZ's view/stewardship of the AC. And, to be frank, I think it has also always driven SA and you, Clean. And that's always been the Faustian bargain of SA...how do you balance "being accepted into The Fraternity" - when your mission is tear down the "Status Quo"? I'm not faulting you guys for doing whatever you want to do. It's always been an interesting experiment. But, if you're able to look at it objectively, it really sets up impossible expectations as you've clearly experienced. As you know, you can only be on one side at a time.

Grant himself has obviously had a very hard time balancing these two worlds as well. Since that interview, we are now down to a small handful of billionaire-backed AC syndicates that have very little real "nationality", with boats that will likely have very little trickle down to that harbor in front of his house, and almost no run-up to the actual event to build the audience you spoke of. So it is very much still an open question what kind of global public interest and financial impact AC36 will have in its current state.

The AC has clearly gone back into The Fraternity world. And SailGP is looking to continue on without it as much as possible. May the best direction win.

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1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

Finished the interview while I was darning my socks. Pretty interesting, I must say. And congrats to @Stingray~ for being an NZ needle-mover!

One of the most telling aspects of the mentality in which the AC is steeped (or mired), along with most of the sailing media that always surrounds it - is Grant's repeated references to "The Fraternity". I understand why he's using the term - but it also belies the deep-seated problems that have always held sailing back from more general public interest and adoption. "The Fraternity" is an incestuous world that can do nothing but shrivel as time goes by with costs that keep rising and less and less people actually wanting to be in it.

The biggest evidence for this shift that we've seen over the past few years is the explosive growth of millennials buying sailboats and taking off cruising all over the world - with their YouTube channels garnering millions of followers and hundreds-of-millions of views (something most major sailing events can only dream of). This generation could care less what "The Fraternity" thinks about them. They don't need to be "accepted" or "inside".

So, really "The Fraternity" itself is a seriously outmoded concept in this modern world. It is dying - if not dead already. And it has been killing the sport for a long time. Yet it STILL drives ETNZ's view/stewardship of the AC. And, to be frank, I think it has also always driven SA and you, Clean. And that's always been the Faustian bargain of SA...how do you balance "being accepted into The Fraternity" - when your mission is tear down the "Status Quo"? I'm not faulting you guys for doing whatever you want to do. It's always been an interesting experiment. But, if you're able to look at it objectively, it really sets up impossible expectations as you've clearly experienced. As you know, you can only be on one side at a time.

Grant himself has obviously had a very hard time balancing these two worlds as well. Since that interview, we are now down to a small handful of billionaire-backed AC syndicates that have very little real "nationality", with boats that will likely have very little trickle down to that harbor in front of his house, and almost no run-up to the actual event to build the audience you spoke of. So it is very much still an open question what kind of global public interest and financial impact AC36 will have in its current state.

The AC has clearly gone back into The Fraternity world. And SailGP is looking to continue on without it as much as possible. May the best direction win.

The problem I have with your writing is that you riddle it with flawed assumptions that you recite as though they are canon.  It makes honest discussion and debate difficult, because unquestioned premises sort of ruin the whole logic thing.  Almost every thing you say is wrong, but by the time anyone points it out to you, you've already flitted to the next flower to drain of of its vitality.

 

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Okay - what's "wrong"?

Did Grant not refer several times to "The Fraternity"? Do you not see the disconnect of that mentality to today's generation? Do you not acknowledge the reality of where the AC is currently vs. what they were hoping it to be 2 years ago? Do you not see the trap of picking sides as a "journalist"?

I'll stow my proboscis for a moment and listen to your explanation if you're so inclined.

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22 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Did Grant not refer several times to "The Fraternity"? Do you not see the disconnect of that mentality to today's generation?

Flawed assumption: Any AC ever has cared about 'today's generation. They're happy when they get the local yacht club kids out to see the boats and a couple of kids of color near some techy bits.  Good newsy and sponsory shots and a puffy PR piece.  

Do you not acknowledge the reality of where the AC is currently vs. what they were hoping it to be 2 years ago?

Flawed assumption: There is any "is" there.  Firstly, I don't remember where 'they' thought they would be in November 2019.  Refresh my recollection please.  Secondly, if I had a dollar for every organizer who expected great things and puffed up his product, I'd have a really nice cruising boat.

Do you not see the trap of picking sides as a "journalist"?

Flawed assumptions: I was a journalist; the word 'journalist' means what you ascribe to it.  I don't know that I need to further explain this point.  That's called a podcast.  I was called a commentator, and occasionally a reporter. Never, ever a journalist.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, martin.langhoff said:

Ego anarchy! C'mon, who cares?

It’s not like there’s anything else going on here on the ghost ship

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The flower has been drained of its vitality. Time to start the 2021 thread.

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Fix a boat, sail a boat. Teach someone to sail. Participate in a more constructive thread. Just sayin'.

I'm honestly interested in SailGP. And in the AC. And truly truly uninterested in all the mudslinging and personal stuff. Send PMs to each other. Could be the start of a beautiful friendship :-)

 

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31 minutes ago, martin.langhoff said:

Fix a boat, sail a boat. Teach someone to sail. Participate in a more constructive thread. Just sayin'.

I'm honestly interested in SailGP. And in the AC. And truly truly uninterested in all the mudslinging and personal stuff. Send PMs to each other. Could be the start of a beautiful friendship :-)

 

Fair enough Martin.

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5 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

Fix a boat, sail a boat. Teach someone to sail. Participate in a more constructive thread. Just sayin'.

I'm honestly interested in SailGP. And in the AC. And truly truly uninterested in all the mudslinging and personal stuff. Send PMs to each other. Could be the start of a beautiful friendship :-)

 

Well said, we only have four months till SGP racing starts and we will get SGP in 2021 a month before the AC racing so plenty of SGP racing to keep us happy.

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So with the longer and shorter wings, the viable venues could/should expand.

What other limiting factors are there to consider? ie: boat width, wing height, draft to consider for channels and bridges; draft for the racing area; dock facilities near racing area;...

What cities would be viable?

I don't think they'd come to Miami :-/ 

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Why? The RC44s came once iirc. Was it bad?

Newport RI would be good.  

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59 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Why? The RC44s came once iirc. Was it bad?

Newport RI would be good.  

The open sea has swells. The best area is in Biscayne bay, with little chop, good wind, great viewing, but marginal depth.

The commute between docks and Biscayne bay has narrow channels and a bridge that isn't quite tall enough.

Newport sounds good.

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23 minutes ago, martin.langhoff said:

Biscayne bay, with little chop, good wind, great viewing, but marginal depth.

 

BB has marginal depth for melges 24s.  It definitely has less than marginal depth for AC50s!

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Hadn't realized it was so shallow. Looked deeper on Miami Vice. :)