Wess

Lets talk chutes on a performance cruising multihull

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The Admiral and I own a 36 foot tri that has an additional 10 foot bowsprit (so call it 46).  We day-sail a lot and are cruising more and more.  We are both in our late 50s and double-hand the boat.  Rotating rig w/ main, blade jib, and a screacher that lives furled near but not on the end of the sprit (the very end is where the spin tack goes).  We don't have powered winches so its not a joy to hoist sails (thus the screacher live hoisted which is also convenient especially as we sail a lot!).  Currently we are deck launching and retrieving an asym.  Inside gybes.  Having raced these things I get that the best DDW VMG comes from running angles and keeping the apparent at about 90.  On our F27F I had a deck launched asym runner and a second flatter and smaller chute that was on a top down furler.  That got a lot of use when not racing. Put it up once before leaving the dock and take it down at end of the day. We could go to windward in 20 true with the chute hoisted and furled. Made life simple but still had to sail the angles... gybe, gybe again, gybe again.  So the options that I see are:

1.) Deck launched asym runner - Best DDW VMG but a lot of chute to get up and down error free, a fair amount of work to gybe and have to sail the angles.

2.) Flatter cut asym on top down furler - Lose a bit of DDW VMG but gain convenience of furling and less risk of issue in launching/retrieving. Still have to sail the angles and the gybe is a bit tricky due to narrow gap for inside gybe between chute furling torsion line and the screacher.  But we made that work on our F27F so we know tricks.

3.) Conventional symetrical chute in turtle - Least efficient in terms of DDW VMG but potentially high in terms of convenience factor.  But is this doable with the furled screacher so far forward... do turtle really work in real life on boats this size?  Back in the day with our offshore cat this was the way to go.  Drop the main or reef it down and a conventional chute tacked to each bow.  Easy miles DDW.

So what are folks doing now and liking?

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DDW is uncomfortable and slow, best to work on optimizing depth of running to minimize frequently of gybes whilst maintaining comfortable motion, speed and fun.

I use a full cut 2.2 oz triradial, roller furling reacher and a highly efficient, broad headed main both of which I can trim far off centerline to lift and reach DEEP!

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2.2 oz Nylon is bulletproof and cheap, buy a couple for the price of unnecessary higher tech.

Like I said, focusing on making the MAINSAIL do a better job off C/L - getting the platform heading further off while the rig is still lifting - pays big time.

Wess, your sprit is too long, driving the bow down and you can’t square off the main ‘cos it’s being asked to hold the rig up, not a good plan.

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9 hours ago, soma said:

Loose-luffed, top down A3 built with CZ silver. 

Soma, running into this problem on the next boat. We have a symmetrical which is just a tad cumbersome to get up using an ATN snuffer. I also have a UPS sail but cannot get enough tension yet to make it a reaching sail.

The top down furlers, along with their torsion ropes are wicked and crazy expensive. What about a symmetrical with a cloth snuffer to a winch? I use the winch now for the snuffer on the symmetrical. Just keep it rigged on a bag on the net. OR, figure out a an A3 or similar with a regular furler?

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39 minutes ago, mpenman said:

The top down furlers, along with their torsion ropes are wicked and crazy expensive. What about a symmetrical with a cloth snuffer to a winch? I use the winch now for the snuffer on the symmetrical. Just keep it rigged on a bag on the net. OR, figure out a an A3 or similar with a regular furler?

The top down furlers are barely more expensive than a normal furler. 10% extra? Check the prices on either the Facnor and/or the Ubi Maior. You'll be happily surprised. (I'm happy to help you source them). 

As for an A3, a stiffer fabric like CZ won't backwind on the cable like a nylon sail will, meaning you can reliably furl/unfurl, unlike most top down sails  

Also, shop around for the torsion cables. Future has a monopoly so their prices are high, but Amare (among others) offer great value. 

Also; "symmetric" is a dirty word. Even with a family aboard I'd still prefer to sail hotter (and faster) and gybe once a day, rather than sail DDW for a week. 

I've taken the snuffed to a winch plenty, it does work well. But...I'd go furling every time for cruising.

 

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11 hours ago, soma said:

The top down furlers are barely more expensive than a normal furler. 10% extra? Check the prices on either the Facnor and/or the Ubi Maior. You'll be happily surprised. (I'm happy to help you source them). 

As for an A3, a stiffer fabric like CZ won't backwind on the cable like a nylon sail will, meaning you can reliably furl/unfurl, unlike most top down sails  

Also, shop around for the torsion cables. Future has a monopoly so their prices are high, but Amare (among others) offer great value. 

Also; "symmetric" is a dirty word. Even with a family aboard I'd still prefer to sail hotter (and faster) and gybe once a day, rather than sail DDW for a week. 

I've taken the snuffed to a winch plenty, it does work well. But...I'd go furling every time for cruising.

 

What Soma said.  And, quality is remembered long after price is forgotten.

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Don't expect instant results from a top-down. You need to get just the right halyard tension and be ready to shift a lot of furling line to get it furling.

Great when short-handed. You can furl before a gybe, just gybe the main and then un-furl after the gybe.

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Your boat will maximize VMG DW when sailing 135 off true wind.  Your gybes will be 90 each time.  This will be true no matter whether you choose a symspin or an asymspin.  You know this since you say the apparent wind is amidships.  That tells you a bunch about how much apparent wind your boat generates; that is, you will have difficulty trimming the symspin each time; can be done, but you are looking for simplicity.  SO, the issue for the asymspin sail becomes matching the camber amount to your boat's apparent wind generating capability.   I suspect an SMG around 85-90 will work well.  As far as sail handling goes. Need to hoist, trim, gybe and douse.  The heavier the fabric, the more difficult this will be.  So I'd stick with nylon.  With only two of you, a furler makes sense and the boat and sail will be just too huge for a snuffer (could be done).  Both sorts of furlers (bottom up or top down) have their issues.  With bottom up, you will have to have the torque rope sewn into the luff of the asymspin and it will be loose at the top occasionally-and the sailmaker has to make the luff nearly straight and is limited in the amount of camber he can put in.  SO, top down furler is probably what you need.   

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On 9/30/2019 at 9:32 AM, boardhead said:

DDW is uncomfortable and slow...

Not on all boats! 

My boat thrives going DDW, and the only thing that can be uncomfortable at times...is how bloody hot it can get!

 

9B6E9D55-C840-4841-A3D3-53252F5A7439.jpeg

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That’s a pretty specific craft you have there Solarbri and DDW is a no brainer for you with only the heat issue to  compel your dousing the  “Squaresail”? and reaching off for relief.

Wess was talking his trimaran which tends to flip flop and get squirrelly DDW, much more comfortable leaning on the lee ama.

So “Back in the Day” my main competition in NEMA was a certain lady owned and campaigned Formula 40 Tri, we were pretty even upwind but she ran away and saved her time downwind. We shared the same excellent sailmaker from whom I requested the design and construction on a deeper reaching asymmetrical chute.

The following season I ran our boat deeper, with minimal speed loss and improved VMG (whilst also running the main further off C/L  as mentioned earlier) - we won the season trophy.

On another occasion I crewed on the beautifully built, custom 35’ trimaran Maggie Rae in a Newport Unlimited regatta. The chute was symmetric tacked and sheeted off the ama bows/sterns - in the first race we ran the leeward leg DDW and I was amazed to watch the mostly Farrier, generally smaller but largely higher rated F28’s and F31’s gybing back and forth astern unable to overhaul us, we won that race.

My point here is that the best course and equipment is not universal for multihulls. Fast boats in flat water and breeze can cover much greater distances at hot angles for optimal VMG. Slower cruising boats can fare better both from a speed and comfort aspect heading lower and get the job done with lower tech, less expensive equipment.

Regular furlers with a decent torque line work reliably on full, triangular, nylon reachers. Check out NER for competitively priced torque line.

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36 minutes ago, boardhead said:

 

Regular furlers with a decent torque line work reliably on full, triangular, nylon reachers. Check out NER for competitively priced torque line.

Hyde put that torque rope in the luff of my spin for bottom up furling.  DID NOT WORK VERY WELL.  Even with tight as I could get luff, took 4 turns of bottom drum before top started to turn with the boat going ddw and mainsail shadowing the sail.  I removed it.  Would not recommend this product.  Colligo marine makes a decent torsion cable...but I make my own.

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Thanks @soma, and @boardhead... and @mpenman I would like to hear more about exactly what (symmetrical) you are running on what boat.

OK, and I maybe need to reset here a bit.  I (and the wife and I) have dealt with loose luff asyms and top down furlers for same on trimarans.  We get it.  And if all we were doing was extended coastal or offshore cruising that is what we would do.  But...

We are in the Chesapeake and for so long as I am working the vast majority of our sailing will be in the Bay (except for an annual vacation cruise).  That means lots of north or south sailing in breeze that is mostly north or south.  So VMG upwind and downwind sailing.  Upwind is easy.  Tacking the beast is a breeze.  Downwind is a bit of a different story.  Heavy air we use the screacher which works great as a chicken chute... but you still have to sail the angles of course.  For the more typical lighter stuff we got and plan to keep the deck launched runner because we can't put a chute this full and big on a top down furler.  It allows us to sail deepish and gybe angles are about 70-90 degrees depending on breeze (larger angles in lighter breeze obviously). And it works great for day sailing.  Hauling ass with a tiller extension and driving from the float nobody wants an AP or to give up the helm. .  But here is the real - and problem - scenario.  This boat gets places reasonably fast. Our weekend cruising grounds are reasonably expansive and include the entire Bay (200 miles in length).  We both enjoy sailing at night and its not unusual for use to head down the Bay on Friday night and cover 100nm by sun up.  Spend the day in Smith Island and then head back home (north of Naps) Saturday night.  Norfolk is doable in a weekend.  HdG is an easy weekend.  But we are double handed and so catch naps when overnighting and so one of us is always basically single handing the boat on overnight sails. Its delivery mode.  AP steers.  While the Bay is long its also narrow at these speeds.  So lots of gybes.  Across shipping lanes.  And that is a big chute to gybe.  And if it needs to come down... well its a lot of sail in the dark.  We can and have done this but both of us are wondering if there is an easier way for this scenario.  We would gladly give up some DDW VMG for easier sailing on overnight deliveries.  Tried wing on wing but too unstable for the AP and hard on the sails. Tried no main and duel headsails.  Bit better but still same problem.  The symmetrical tacked to both (float) bows (no main) has appeal.  Yea we will lose some DDW VMG but if we can do 7 in 10 we gonna be very happy. We will be even happier about "no trim" (well almost) gybes and being nearly DDW. We will be thrilled to be out of shipping channels and not constantly gybing across them every 2 hours. 

So getting more specific here... could a symmetrical work?  The issue is do socks realistically and "bulletproofly" work on a chute this big?  Is it even feasible a cut a chute for this application with the furled screacher way out there (no I don't want to raise and lower it... its heavy and I am old... and no I don't want powered winches as we hate weight and complexity... geeze I sound like a grump LOL

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31 minutes ago, Wess said:

no I don't want to raise and lower it... its heavy and I am old... and no I don't want powered winches as we hate weight and complexity... geeze I sound like a grump LOL

How about an electric winch handle as a compromise?

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1 hour ago, MultiThom said:

Hyde put that torque rope in the luff of my spin for bottom up furling.  DID NOT WORK VERY WELL.  Even with tight as I could get luff, took 4 turns of bottom drum before top started to turn with the boat going ddw and mainsail shadowing the sail.  I removed it.  Would not recommend this product.  Colligo marine makes a decent torsion cable...but I make my own.

How big was the sail and what diameter cable did they use?

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50 minutes ago, Wess said:

 For the more typical lighter stuff we got and plan to keep the deck launched runner because we can't put a chute this full and big on a top down furler.  It allows us to sail deepish and gybe angles are about 70-90 degrees depending on breeze (larger angles in lighter breeze obviously). And it works great for day sailing. 

So getting more specific here... could a symmetrical work?  The issue is do socks realistically and "bulletproofly" work on a chute this big?  Is it even feasible a cut a chute for this application with the furled screacher way out there (no I don't want to raise and lower it... its heavy and I am old... and no I don't want powered winches as we hate weight and complexity... geeze I sound like a grump LOL

Why can't you put a chute that full on a top down furler....that's exactly why they were invented.

I put a symmetric on my F242 which also generated apparent wind sufficient that course 135 had awa of 90.  The boat generated so much apparent wind that to keep the sail inflated, the tack had to be let out about half way to amidships.   Also made a symmetric for my Hobie Getaway.   Same thing happened.  So I think you would be unhappy with sailing a symmetric.  BUT, there are lots of used symmetrics out there for cheap...buy one and give it a try.

 

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6 minutes ago, boardhead said:

How big was the sail and what diameter cable did they use?

They were cheapo and used the 9 mm diameter with a 9 meter luff.  About 22 sq meters SA.  Would have been enough if the torque line was better.  Once I removed it I could easily tell that it just does not transmit torque worth a hoot.  Really irritated me.

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You got the right line?  I bought reels of 9 and 13 mm Spinnaker Furling line -  (3984 - 9 or 13 - 00600) and have used a bunch of it, the 9 mm on F27 size range, the 13 on 35 to 45 footers. It’s a multiple (4) braid, very stiff line, everybody I have been involved with on this line loved it, some new sails, some retrofit.

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9 minutes ago, boardhead said:

You got the right line?  I bought reels of 9 and 13 mm Spinnaker Furling line -  (3984 - 9 or 13 - 00600) and have used a bunch of it, the 9 mm on F27 size range, the 13 on 35 to 45 footers. It’s a multiple (4) braid, very stiff line, everybody I have been involved with on this line loved it, some new sails, some retrofit.

Obviously I cannot know where Hyde sources their lines.  But the line I removed looks just like the NER pictured line and the construction appears to be the same with double braid with the outside braid being tightly woven black poly.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Thanks @soma, and @boardhead... and @mpenman I would like to hear more about exactly what (symmetrical) you are running on what boat.

OK, and I maybe need to reset here a bit.  I (and the wife and I) have dealt with loose luff asyms and top down furlers for same on trimarans.  We get it.  And if all we were doing was extended coastal or offshore cruising that is what we would do.  But...

We are in the Chesapeake and for so long as I am working the vast majority of our sailing will be in the Bay (except for an annual vacation cruise).  That means lots of north or south sailing in breeze that is mostly north or south.  So VMG upwind and downwind sailing.  Upwind is easy.  Tacking the beast is a breeze.  Downwind is a bit of a different story.  Heavy air we use the screacher which works great as a chicken chute... but you still have to sail the angles of course.  For the more typical lighter stuff we got and plan to keep the deck launched runner because we can't put a chute this full and big on a top down furler.  It allows us to sail deepish and gybe angles are about 70-90 degrees depending on breeze (larger angles in lighter breeze obviously). And it works great for day sailing.  Hauling ass with a tiller extension and driving from the float nobody wants an AP or to give up the helm. .  But here is the real - and problem - scenario.  This boat gets places reasonably fast. Our weekend cruising grounds are reasonably expansive and include the entire Bay (200 miles in length).  We both enjoy sailing at night and its not unusual for use to head down the Bay on Friday night and cover 100nm by sun up.  Spend the day in Smith Island and then head back home (north of Naps) Saturday night.  Norfolk is doable in a weekend.  HdG is an easy weekend.  But we are double handed and so catch naps when overnighting and so one of us is always basically single handing the boat on overnight sails. Its delivery mode.  AP steers.  While the Bay is long its also narrow at these speeds.  So lots of gybes.  Across shipping lanes.  And that is a big chute to gybe.  And if it needs to come down... well its a lot of sail in the dark.  We can and have done this but both of us are wondering if there is an easier way for this scenario.  We would gladly give up some DDW VMG for easier sailing on overnight deliveries.  Tried wing on wing but too unstable for the AP and hard on the sails. Tried no main and duel headsails.  Bit better but still same problem.  The symmetrical tacked to both (float) bows (no main) has appeal.  Yea we will lose some DDW VMG but if we can do 7 in 10 we gonna be very happy. We will be even happier about "no trim" (well almost) gybes and being nearly DDW. We will be thrilled to be out of shipping channels and not constantly gybing across them every 2 hours. 

So getting more specific here... could a symmetrical work?  The issue is do socks realistically and "bulletproofly" work on a chute this big?  Is it even feasible a cut a chute for this application with the furled screacher way out there (no I don't want to raise and lower it... its heavy and I am old... and no I don't want powered winches as we hate weight and complexity... geeze I sound like a grump LOL

Hey Wess, our Contour 34 loved our assym on a sprit - but the SF bay is narrow, especially if you go upriver for cruising. So we bought a used Sym kite, tacked off "twings" on the bows. Was brilliant for just cruising.  Easy to trim, easy to gybe as just pull down both twings and all is stable, gybe, let up the leeward twing. 

We did use it once, racing, on a long distance shorthanded race, and it crushed all the reaching boats downwind.   Given the Contour, it wasn't all that efficient upwind so we'd lose there, then pass them on the next downwind. 


On the river here even some of the heavier F boats will sometimes run Syms to avoid the gybe-fest.

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 First off - I am not selling this stuff but have used it on a couple of my personal sails and at least seven sails where I made up the cables for sailmakers to install.

I just set up a 30’ 6” odd length of 9 mm in my basement and it’s a triple braid plus the black cover. I set up a torque wrench at 50 lb/in and with almost zero tension (one end in a vice and me holding the other) it cracked the wrench around three rotations which seemed to me pretty good and certainly the experience furling sails has been very good.

I did run some personal tests years ago with two sizes of Facnor and a Harken single line and a drum type Profurl and the number of turns required to instigate the top swivel rotation was significantly different so the friction on that top swivel is an issue also as is any halyard above the top swivel.

My first experience with an effective single line furler was buying the entire recommended package from Facnor all of a decade ago, it worked very well but that torque line was very expensive.

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Maybe getting stupid here but for effective, short handed, down wind passage making it’s worth recognizing the accomplishments of commercial sail - clippers.

The  take away is that you need to sail as deep as you can with effective drive from the sail plan, they set square sails across the ship.

Our modern  trimarans are largely optimized for getting upwind while using the trades the clippers were all about downwind. You really do need well shaped sails set way  off centerline and for that and the mainsail, in my opinion, should always be just that, the MAIN sail.

Rotate that mast 90 degrees and run the boom way out, get it all flowing and you will sail fast deeper than 135. In waves you can carve all the way down in the surfs but we are having fun and driving now - gets old with just a couple aboard but we are talking bigger waves, not really Chesapeake on a fun cruise weekend.

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I'm literally in a very similar (but smaller - F-31) boat.  I saw a GX-15 top-down with the torque rope, used, and bought it.  Still haven't bought the sail to wrap around it yet, though, so very interested in this thread, and folks who have tried spinning spins on top-downs.   The torque-line seems incredibly stiff, but looking at it I haven't figured out how I would adjust luff/halyard tension - looks like that would have to turn too.  On our jib that rolls on a foil, I use some little pull-down blocks at the foot.  I should go look again, it's in the garage.*

I must admit limited 'chute experience on any boat (but some, crewing can-racing etc), and the target is also old farts DDW cruising, like OP Wess.  I particularly am looking for something to do better angles in light wind than we can currently get with our beat, heavy, kevlar screacher that collapses as I pinch-down, despite being whisker-poled way out.  But I also want to keep AW up so we don't slow-roast in swarms of biting insects.   That last requirement makes me think DDW ain't for us.  But ~easy short-handed jibing is.

I find the problem with getting the main out on our boat (non-rotating rig) is that the sweep on the spreaders starts to push on the full-battens, shape suffers. Yeah, yeah, swap to a rotating rig, I know, but no.  I think the optimal foresail-choice might be highly dependent on the main config... I'm thinkin' because rotating-rigs are much cleaner wung-out, they're going to be able to sail ~deeper, and as far as the main goes, and their optimal VMG DDW will be at a deeper AW (90 or more?) than our fixed rig (90 or maybe even less?).

Are there different answers to roughly the same question that depend on fixed vs rotating main?

Wess thinks maybe the sock isn't realistic at that size if I read correctly, but maybe I jumped the gun on the GX-15 versus a sock for my size boat?

Edit: *https://www.velasailingsupply.com/selden-adjustable-tack-swivel-for-gx15/

 

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Wess  - Running the 2.2 oz, torque line equipped, single line bottom up furled sail on a couple of F39’s, a TRT 1200 and my St Francis 44. Three of those boats also have decent ATN snuffed asymmetrics. 

I bought my first screecher for Skateaway in 1992, a bi-radial 2.2 oz with double dyneema lines in a tape on the luff, the sail is still in use on the TRT. That sail was replaced by a kevlar sail, set on the tip of a seven foot sprit. Both sails worked well close reaching but only had very limited use upwind. For light air, upwind I then bought a heavier, higher aspect (shorter foot, smaller) sail which tacks on the bow, not the sprit, it works really well - good enough to sail away from Zephyr on the wind in light stuff in spite of a hundred square foot area deficit - her jib and main only area. Next I had the Kevlar screecher re-cut making it fuller, tacked it on the bow and sheeted well out board on the aft beam - that sail is for close reaching only - the boat flies across the wind, much quicker and less dramatic than the end of sprit tack set up driving the bow down.

You might want to switch to a bigger, decent performing, Cat with advancing years - I really enjoy day sail blasts on the bay on Skateaway but at close to seventy I really appreciate the stability and easily driven long legs of the St Francis - slower but so stable that I can quietly tweak the rig with this old guy’s experience and still make surprisingly fast, safe passages.

With that bulletproof 2.2 oz reacher we were able to make a high tech equipped Gunboat 63 look pretty slow this summer as I reported on this Multi Anarchy at the time - it’s fun.

   

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Since this topic might catch someone's interest in a top down furler, there's a used one by Bamar (rollgen) who have made these top down furlers for more than a decade now (they claim to have invented it and I really do believe they were the first).  In any case, I don't know how easy it is to shorten the torque line on these (it is a pretty specialty item);  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Furling-Bamar-RLG-EVO-10/293246754227?hash=item4446de5db3:g:-zIAAOSwdDhdioxe

I have no interest in the sale.

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11 hours ago, bacq2bacq said:

looking at it I haven't figured out how I would adjust luff/halyard tension - looks like that would have to turn too

You just fasten the head and tack to the parts at either end or the torque line with a soft shackle. That means that the torque line needs to be the right length, mine has clamp swages so is easy to adjust.

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9 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Since this topic might catch someone's interest in a top down furler, there's a used one by Bamar (rollgen) who have made these top down furlers for more than a decade now (they claim to have invented it and I really do believe they were the first).  In any case, I don't know how easy it is to shorten the torque line on these (it is a pretty specialty item);  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Furling-Bamar-RLG-EVO-10/293246754227?hash=item4446de5db3:g:-zIAAOSwdDhdioxe

I have no interest in the sale.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/556621c8e4b02628a8d3bde8/t/562ea272e4b07380a30a4e36/1445896818474/ClampInstallInst+1_1.pdf

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19 hours ago, Wess said:

So getting more specific here... could a symmetrical work?  The issue is do socks realistically and "bulletproofly" work on a chute this big?  Is it even feasible a cut a chute for this application with the furled screacher way out there (no I don't want to raise and lower it... its heavy and I am old... and no I don't want powered winches as we hate weight and complexity... geeze I sound like a grump LOL

We use a symmetric quite often. Bought one off eBay that’s a bit small for our boat, but it’s easy peasy. Our sailing is generally going either straight upwind or straight downwind. We generally keep the main out of the sun going downhill and just put up the symmetric. Jibing is a non-issue. It was cheap, so no biggie if we blow it up. Well usually run at about 150-160 true, to not lose all the AW. YMMV. 

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16 minutes ago, Training Wheels said:

We use a symmetric quite often. Bought one off eBay that’s a bit small for our boat, but it’s easy peasy. Our sailing is generally going either straight upwind or straight downwind. We generally keep the main out of the sun going downhill and just put up the symmetric. Jibing is a non-issue. It was cheap, so no biggie if we blow it up. Well usually run at about 150-160 true, to not lose all the AW. YMMV. 

On what boat?

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16 hours ago, boardhead said:

Wess  - Running the 2.2 oz, torque line equipped, single line bottom up furled sail on a couple of F39’s, a TRT 1200 and my St Francis 44. Three of those boats also have decent ATN snuffed asymmetrics. 

I bought my first screecher for Skateaway in 1992, a bi-radial 2.2 oz with double dyneema lines in a tape on the luff, the sail is still in use on the TRT. That sail was replaced by a kevlar sail, set on the tip of a seven foot sprit. Both sails worked well close reaching but only had very limited use upwind. For light air, upwind I then bought a heavier, higher aspect (shorter foot, smaller) sail which tacks on the bow, not the sprit, it works really well - good enough to sail away from Zephyr on the wind in light stuff in spite of a hundred square foot area deficit - her jib and main only area. Next I had the Kevlar screecher re-cut making it fuller, tacked it on the bow and sheeted well out board on the aft beam - that sail is for close reaching only - the boat flies across the wind, much quicker and less dramatic than the end of sprit tack set up driving the bow down.

You might want to switch to a bigger, decent performing, Cat with advancing years - I really enjoy day sail blasts on the bay on Skateaway but at close to seventy I really appreciate the stability and easily driven long legs of the St Francis - slower but so stable that I can quietly tweak the rig with this old guy’s experience and still make surprisingly fast, safe passages.

With that bulletproof 2.2 oz reacher we were able to make a high tech equipped Gunboat 63 look pretty slow this summer as I reported on this Multi Anarchy at the time - it’s fun.

   

Not ready to switch to the cat yet.  Eventually yes but not yet.  No must get this... I am sure you would rather day sail your tri than your cat.  Rather passage your cat than your tri.  Right now we are able to do both on the tri.  So we love and are keeping her.  And back to the question...  a symmetrical and sock.... would you could you on Skate?

Imagine this.  You are leaving Norfolk on Skate bound for Annapolis.  Easy overnight sail up the bay.  Got 10-15 breeze out of the south behind you.  No appreciable sea running relative to the size of the boat.... its the bay.  Double handed; just you and the wife.  Lots of shipping traffic and a narrow bay. Fish taps and shallows.  Ideally you want to run straight up the bay not dealing with the shallows or gybing across the shipping channel all night.  Would a symmetrical and sock not work for you on Skate?  Why or why not?

Don't misunderstand.  I am not ditching the deck launched big asym runner for the fun times.  But the scenario I am talking here needs a different solution.

 

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8 hours ago, teamvmg said:

That's how you do it on the colligo torque rope--which is actually why I suggest the colligo since changing lengths is easy peasy and getting the exact length is important for the system to work well.  The bamar doesn't work the same--the rope has a foam/rubber outer sheath and it seems to be an involved process to make the terminations having glanced at the rigging manual a while back.   

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

On what boat?

44’ tri

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31 minutes ago, Training Wheels said:

D68580F9-E7CA-4F0D-ACF1-C06AF80B7420.jpeg

Yep, that's exactly what it looked like flying a symspin on my F242.  Tack about halfway between ama and main hull.  Sailed a little deeper but I much preferred a deep cut asymspin since after each gybe I was always fiddling with tack position.  And if I had to head up to miss something in the water in front of me, I could do so easily.  

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

Not ready to switch to the cat yet.  Eventually yes but not yet.  No must get this... I am sure you would rather day sail your tri than your cat.  Rather passage your cat than your tri.  Right now we are able to do both on the tri.  So we love and are keeping her.  And back to the question...  a symmetrical and sock.... would you could you on Skate?

Imagine this.  You are leaving Norfolk on Skate bound for Annapolis.  Easy overnight sail up the bay.  Got 10-15 breeze out of the south behind you.  No appreciable sea running relative to the size of the boat.... its the bay.  Double handed; just you and the wife.  Lots of shipping traffic and a narrow bay. Fish taps and shallows.  Ideally you want to run straight up the bay not dealing with the shallows or gybing across the shipping channel all night.  Would a symmetrical and sock not work for you on Skate?  Why or why not?

Don't misunderstand.  I am not ditching the deck launched big asym runner for the fun times.  But the scenario I am talking here needs a different solution.

 

Except when racing around a short course (BBR, BDD, Newport Unlimited) with full (4) crew, we always use the asymmetrics (big and small) deployed and snuffed with an ATN.

For the scenario you describe I would rig the small asymmetric with a single reef in the main and run deep and slow (a relative term) steered by autopilot with the alternate, rested crew (me and the missus) on a diligent watch ready to raise the sleeper without guilt.

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 Might not want to run the full plan at night, in a busy Bay, just you and the missus!1570042078146131961915.thumb.jpg.c3c998d4c05889e0492a988fc840be70.jpg

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All cruising multis (or racing multis that are cruising) benefit from sailing deep angles downwind. I believe that an asy set up with tack to windward as per picture above would be the best option, sail at about 160 true wind angle.

Only other option is sym with snuffer and no main dead downwind but can be hard to pull the sock over if windy.

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8 hours ago, bushsailor said:

All cruising multis (or racing multis that are cruising) benefit from sailing deep angles downwind. I believe that an asy set up with tack to windward as per picture above would be the best option, sail at about 160 true wind angle.

Only other option is sym with snuffer and no main dead downwind but can be hard to pull the sock over if windy.

+1.   AWA at 150. (28ft Tri). But tack further to windward. 

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Was going to say you don't necessarily need a different chute:

You could rig a line from the tack to move it to windward ama (or somewhere in between) and use any assymetrical to run deeper angles.

I sailed on a mono that would sometimes pole out the tack of the A2 and it worked well. 

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10 minutes ago, Airwick said:

Was going to say you don't necessarily need a different chute:

You could rig a line from the tack to move it to windward ama (or somewhere in between) and use any assymetrical to run deeper angles.

I sailed on a mono that would sometimes pole out the tack of the A2 and it worked well. 

Totally agree. I own said mono, have both symmetric and asymmetric kites, and squaring back the A2 with the pole is the bomb. Lots of big boats (e.g. SC70) do this because symmetric kites are simply too big to handle. Also, for a given sail area, an asymmetric is a more efficient sail shape because more of the lift vector is driving the boat forward rather than sideways.

On a multi you could rig a tack line from each ama and float the tack back and forth to achieve the same squaring back effect as with the pole.

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Just now, gspot said:

Totally agree. I own said mono, have both symmetric and asymmetric kites, and squaring back the A2 with the pole is the bomb. Lots of big boats (e.g. SC70) do this because symmetric kites are simply too big to handle. Also, for a given sail area, an asymmetric is a more efficient sail shape because more of the lift vector is driving the boat forward rather than sideways.

On a multi you could rig a tack line from each ama and float the tack back and forth to achieve the same squaring back effect as with the pole.

Maybe. Lots of Multi Assyms are more like flat code zeros/reachers as they expect the AWA to be quite far forward. But yes, if you buy a used kite you could buy a mono A2 rather than a Sym. 

 

As an aside, we run our Mono assyms off a pole and swing her back anytime we're running.

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18 hours ago, bushsailor said:

Only other option is sym with snuffer and no main dead downwind but can be hard to pull the sock over if windy.

Personally I think it's dangerous to fly a kite without a main because the wind can build which can make it a bear to take the kite down. If the main is up you can use it to blanket the kite and take the pressure off.

I also own a snuffer but hate it and never use it because it fouls at the most inopportune time. Instead, a letterbox douse over the boom, under the main, and into the companionway is a bulletproof way to get any kite down in any conditions, without having to deal with the extra lines and fuss of a snuffer.

3 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Maybe. Lots of Multi Assyms are more like flat code zeros/reachers as they expect the AWA to be quite far forward. But yes, if you buy a used kite you could buy a mono A2 rather than a Sym. 

 

As an aside, we run our Mono assyms off a pole and swing her back anytime we're running.

I've also squared back the A3 which is flatter than the A2 when I want to sail more conservatively (e.g. shorthanded with my wife).

I think the only benefit to sym kites is that they are faster to gybe than squared back assy's when windward/leeward racing, but you also need more skilled crew. 

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Or you could modify the sprit to articulate.  But sail handling in gybes becomes more complicated since you have to flop the sprit back over after each gybe.  A well designed running asymspin will rotate to windward so you can leave it in the middle and still run deep---not as fast, but just as deep.  What you are trying to do with moving the tack is moving the COE of the spin in line with the boat CL.  And if you are really want to go deep (near DDW), can also wing and wing with an asymspin (preventer on the boom to keep from killing someone).  The ultimate system for ease of use (IMHO) for this size boat is a running asymspin on a motorized top down furler.  Push a button to furl, gybe, push a button to deploy and trim.  Just because you have an asymspin doesn't mean you have to sail hot angles.  Heck, a lot of monohulls without sprits just tack a "cruising" asymspin to their furled jibs and dawdle along just fine.

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On 10/3/2019 at 12:49 PM, gspot said:

Totally agree. I own said mono, have both symmetric and asymmetric kites, and squaring back the A2 with the pole is the bomb. Lots of big boats (e.g. SC70) do this because symmetric kites are simply too big to handle. Also, for a given sail area, an asymmetric is a more efficient sail shape because more of the lift vector is driving the boat forward rather than sideways.

On a multi you could rig a tack line from each ama and float the tack back and forth to achieve the same squaring back effect as with the pole.

Now that’s an interesting idea, I’ll have to try that next time I need to run deep for long periods of time

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On 10/2/2019 at 9:53 AM, Wess said:

Not ready to switch to the cat yet.  Eventually yes but not yet.  No must get this... I am sure you would rather day sail your tri than your cat.  Rather passage your cat than your tri.  Right now we are able to do both on the tri.  So we love and are keeping her.  And back to the question...  a symmetrical and sock.... would you could you on Skate?

SNIP

Have to say the way my Seawind is set up it almost seems like cheating to single hand it.  I have a working jib and screecher on a six foot bow sprit.  Up to 10-12 knots I can sail it wing on wing  DDW.  Only thing is to make sure the working jib goes the same side as the screecher on jibes.  Truth be told I have never put the asym I have up.  Mean to do it some time soon; but I have said the same thing since I bought the boat in 2012.  Course I am probably older than you guys.

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Four sheets work just fine !

E9167F01-BC22-4E2F-A674-76DBD947C9FF.jpeg

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Pretty chute!

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With bowsprit gennakers on former boats (F27 and Dragonfly 920 ) we always had a hard time and were sometimes unable

, running straight downwind to overtake a Havcat 30 with app. the same rating , who was using a symetrical spi 

Quality of the crew was fairly equal but it is hard to interprete the shifts tacking downwind... , a problem a symetrical hardly has...

AB26C287-A5F8-4312-9994-F9842267077F.jpeg

A8A9040E-2D99-41B7-80C7-EA39B8EA8614.jpeg

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We have had success running a 105 square meter ISTEC Parasailor ddw on our Lagoon 380. Surprised at how high we can carry this as well, so it is fairly versatile, and the snuffer works great w/ two people (or one person, lighter conditions and autopilot).

IMG_0424.thumb.jpg.5f70f81dbc438e1f4c85be94e2ddd557.jpg

 

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wess top down furler works for me 

we have 3 kites - A2 in a snuffer.... HATE the snuffer but the kite is cool for sailing deep if it seems the way to go - sometimes in light winds you get on a wave train better deeper, A3 on furler and then a small A3 that is in a turtle that we use as emergency kite ie everything else is fecked up or if it is really windy and we letter box drop it 

we drag the tack over when we go deeper than 150 but as always it is a matter of VMG. Our cat weighs about 5 tonne so are not really in the lightweight trimaran flyer category  

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On 10/1/2019 at 12:25 PM, Wess said:

Thanks @soma, and @boardhead... and @mpenman I would like to hear more about exactly what (symmetrical) you are running on what boat.

OK, and I maybe need to reset here a bit.  I (and the wife and I) have dealt with loose luff asyms and top down furlers for same on trimarans.  We get it.  And if all we were doing was extended coastal or offshore cruising that is what we would do.  But...

   ...The symmetrical tacked to both (float) bows (no main) has appeal.  Yea we will lose some DDW VMG but if we can do 7 in 10 we gonna be very happy. We will be even happier about "no trim" (well almost) gybes and being nearly DDW. We will be thrilled to be out of shipping channels and not constantly gybing across them every 2 hours. 

So getting more specific here... could a symmetrical work?  The issue is do socks realistically and "bulletproofly" work on a chute this big?  Is it even feasible a cut a chute for this application with the furled screacher way out there (no I don't want to raise and lower it... its heavy and I am old... and no I don't want powered winches as we hate weight and complexity... geeze I sound like a grump LOL

Much heavier, longer, two hulled Catana 471 here. Two years ago, we bought a beautiful new AIRX800 A-kite that is magic in most conditions. She goes DDW adequately with no main, but not perfectly.

So I bought a used 1.5oz S-kite off a Deerfoot 65 last Winter for what I think you have in mind. Other than being a used sail with baggy tapes that flap, it is a winner. I have dyneema to insert luff lines in this thing, but we've been too busy cruising. On my list... 

As I recall Farrier amas are not way up in the air, so that kind of flop should not be a huge problem. The ease of gybing is the thing. Sadly, no pics of the used S kite. 

 

I say do it!

IMG_4084.thumb.jpeg.beeb79f7304f3318750bb2fdbdf9255a.jpeg

Good luck!    

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