Winston29

Does your mast stick straight up?

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I know this sounds like a silly (stupid?) question, but just yesterday I noticed that the mast on my 14.2 seems to lean slightly forward. Most boats I see have their mast leaning slightly to the rear, if at all. Catamarans, especially, seem to have a pretty steep rearward rake.

I recently put new shrouds and a forestay/furling jib on the boat, but failed to notice if it had this forward rake with the old rigging, so I don't know if it's always been this way or not. It's hard to tell in photos.
Nothing should have changed. I compared the new rigging to the old before installing it, and everything was the same length.

I'm 99% sure the mast isn't warped forward. If I look at the foot of the mast, I can see that the rear of the foot is slightly farther from the deck than the front, reinforcing the belief that it's leaning. Then again, I only noticed this while the boat was sitting on the trailer, so perhaps the bunk boards are holding the stern up higher, giving the illusion of the mast leaning.
To my eye, the boat looks pretty level on the trailer, but I'll put a bubble-level on the rail when I get the chance. 

Thing is, my forestay is crazy-loose and needs to be tensioned, and I fear that if I accomplish this by shortening the forestay adjuster, the mast really will lean forward, and a lot.

I know the shrouds and forestay are adjustable, but my forestay adjuster is on its last (longest setting) hole, and the shroud adjusters are just too tight to shorten them any further..

So I ordered a longer forestay adjuster and plan/hope to extend the forestay length just enough to let me shorten the shrouds one hole and lean the mast back a little bit.

Thing is, if slightly forward is the way things are supposed to be, I'll skip it and leave it alone. The only thing I could find in the manual was something about leaving the shrouds loose so the mast could move forward when sailing downwind, allowing the jib to fill with with wind better (or something like that)...

Anyone?

- W

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From this Capri 14.2 tuning guide (PDF)

"MAST RAKE
To achieve a neutral helm we need to set the boat up with as much rake as permitted. The forestay length should be the maximum allowed (15’3 3/4” per class rules). If the forestay is short either buy a new one or add shackles until it is the right length."

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^^^^^^   And you need to tighten the H/S by tightening the shrouds, (NOT by shortening the H/S) which will also pull the mast aft.

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Oh good, then I'm going about it the right way by lengthening the headstay and shortening the shrouds.  Thanks. 

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just whack a couple of shackles in at the top of the forestay to experiment with more rake.

The manual sounds a bit whack - you actually want a small amount of helm - say 5deg of tiller while sailing upwind.

If you're not racing, then you don't care about 'what is permitted under class rules' and should put as much rake in as you need to get the helm right.

 

Be aware of the change to jib sheet lead angle that will arise from rake changes.

 

It might be camera distortion, but that photo shows the mast bending forward (inverted). Once you rig main and put tension on the shrouds, this should turn into aft mast bend. If it doesn't, then you need more work on spreader length/angle and shroud tension. You should never have an inverted mast (except maybe when sailing downwind with the rig eased).

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Please note that your weird not-trapeze setup is actually inverting the mast...

Trapezes always go to the hounds so that they don't mess with the mast bend.

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In a world with 2mm dyneema there's no need to mess about with multiple shackles or extra adjusters. Just get a length of 2mm excel racing or similar and make a lashing strop to extend the forestay and/or a short lashing to replace the shroud adjusters.

 

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Please note that your weird not-trapeze setup is actually inverting the mast...

Trapezes always go to the hounds so that they don't mess with the mast bend.

Hounds?  

Are you saying that with the forestay pulling forward and the trap lines pulling backwards, it's bending the mast in the middle?  Crap, I didn't think of that!  Then again, I haven't started using the trap system yet, so no load has been put on it.  Is it possible I bent it just by testing the system a few times with my weight?

Would it help if I moved the tangs higher on the mast, where traditional trap wire would be mounted?  Or a lot lower, as I've actually considered doing?  I could mount them about 2' above the mast-foot and it would probably still work.  

I ran the wires low because when they're mounted too high, they pull in the wrong direction....  Too upward and there's not enough forward pull to supply lower back support.  

I'll pull the mast this weekend and see if it's bent.  Thanks for pointing that out.  Maybe I can put it on some wooden blocks and bend it back.  Ugh.  

A bent mast would explain the extra slop in the jib, and not enough slack in the shrouds to tighten them.  Shit.  

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Where your mast should  be set  up fore  and aft friends on how you want your boat to sail 

rule of thumb ... if, While beating, you let go of your tiller, the boat ought  to gently round up and stop.

if your boat has excessive weather helm your rudder is always dragging sideways in the water and slowing you down 

plus... it gets old to constantly pull on the damned tiller. 
 

If you have to constantly push on the  rudder, GENERALLY, that means your boat won’t point very well. (GENERALLY) 

 

so... you need to go sailing !!! 
I suggest less  breeze than whitecaps but not drifter stuff.

Feel the helm. Of the boat wants to round up too hard, lean the mast forward 

if it  wants to bear away, lean the mast back. 
 

this is not an end all simple answer. 
 

you can increase weather helm

by trimming the mainsheet harder 

if your boat is heeling  a lot, there will be more weather helm. 
 

go sailing and mess with the mast rake, sail trim, where you sit, ... and anything you can do in multiple ways 

repeat until giddy 

 

 

 

 

 

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Winston, there's been some gentle ribbing toward you about the multiple 14.2 threads. In seriousness, it works quite well to have a mega thread with all your questions about a specific boat unless a specific question requires a different thread.

If you had kept one thread from your starting point, we would have all in one place your requirements that led you to choose this boat, the issues that caused you to add your hiking aid, there would be images of your sail plan to help in the self-tacker thread, etc.

 

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10 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

a trapeze on a 160kg / 120sqft dinghy ?   I can see that being good for laughs and little more.

 

It's to accommodate a disability, not for performance.  

4 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

Winston, there's been some gentle ribbing toward you about the multiple 14.2 threads. In seriousness, it works quite well to have a mega thread with all your questions about a specific boat unless a specific question requires a different thread.

If you had kept one thread from your starting point, we would have all in one place your requirements that led you to choose this boat, the issues that caused you to add your hiking aid, there would be images of your sail plan to help in the self-tacker thread, etc.

 

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the "mega thread" system.  I'm on other, non-sailing, forums, and we don't use that method, so it's not something I'm used to doing.  

And that's OK.  I'm used to being laughed at and made fun of.  Water off a ducks back.  I get some really fantastic and helpful advice on this site, so I'm fine with the ridicule and laughter. :D 

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3 hours ago, Winston29 said:

It's to accommodate a disability, not for performance.  

Ok. Good to see you're thinking outside the box... 

 

I think Dex was suggesting just have one thread and keep adding questions to it as you go.

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16 hours ago, Winston29 said:

Hounds?  

**The cluster of fittings where the shrouds join is called the hounds (The halyard fitting at very top of the mast used to be called the "truck" too but don't hear it much any longer)

I ran the wires low because when they're mounted too high, they pull in the wrong direction....  Too upward and there's not enough forward pull to supply lower back support.  

 

**You could put a babystay on the mast at that location to counteract it!  HAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Then you'll also want a spinnaker, tallboy, bigboy and blooper.

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2 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

**You could put a babystay on the mast at that location to counteract it!  HAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Then you'll also want a spinnaker, tallboy, bigboy and blooper.

Na, hell do fine with just the blooper.  

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Winston...  I love your enthusiasm and apparently your wallet is pretty cool as well, but please, just go sailing.  Save some $$$$ and stop trying to make this boat into what it is not..  Just go sailing...  you are wasting waaaayyyy too many brain cells on this with traps, self tacking jibs, and what has to be the smallest roller furler on the planet.  Just go sail.......  

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Thanks everyone.  I may leave the bend, if it is a bend, in the mast alone, but I need to tighten the forestay and shrouds a little.  They're crazy-loose/flopping all over the place, and you can clearly see the sag in the jib wire.  It looks like a banana!

Forgive the multiple threads/questions.  I thought I was finally done working on the darn thing, and then discovered that one of my "mods" might have caused a costly mistake.  That realization sparked lots of stress and anxiety, and it came out in my posts.  

I really do want to go sailing and stop wrenching for a while.  

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The forstay will get unfloppy once the main is up correctly. 

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A couple different Capri 14.2 rigging/tuning guides have been posted on a couple of your other threads. Here is another one.

https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/resources/capri-14-2-tuning-guide

Follow these instructions from arguably the best sailmaker in this solar system. 

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22 minutes ago, bill4 said:

A couple different Capri 14.2 rigging/tuning guides have been posted on a couple of your other threads. Here is another one.

https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/resources/capri-14-2-tuning-guide

Follow these instructions from arguably the best sailmaker in this solar system. 

This.  Don't sail until you fix the mast.  That could quickly put a permanent bend in it.  Also, learn the difference between "rake" and "bend".    Try the forestay toggles to lengthen it.  The attached guide should tell you how long it needs to be.  Don't CUT anything until you confirm that you actually need to!

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If you can't adjust shrouds short enough to correct your rake, a well-secured block of hardwood or aluminum under the mast step is an easy to try fix.

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I wondered about putting a piece of aluminum under the step.  Good to know it's an option.  Thanks!  

I managed to get the shrouds and forestay tensioned properly on Friday afternoon, by shortening the shrouds and adding a second stay adjuster to the forestay to get the length I needed. I even got out for a little, light-wind, twilight sail with my brother.  (Now I want to get nav lights). :P
He hadn't been out on a sailboat since our father took us on the same waters I now sail, over 40 years ago.

I've removed that potentially damaging trapeze system, and I've gone back to my original idea of running a line from the opposite rail to my harness.  It's not perfect, but at least it won't bend the mast.  The lines to the waist harness double as mooring lines.  

 I also put a little pressure on the mast, in the opposite direction I thought the trap-lines might have put on it, using my "mast-stepping safety line" that runs from the mast, to the crossbar/roof rack on my van, to the jib cleat.  It's a system that works well when releasing the forestay alone.  

Now maybe I can stop wrenching on the boat and go sailing, damnit!  

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