gavin_gee

Production racer/cruiser with foiling

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who and when do you reckon we will see a racer cruiser with the ability to foil? 

5 years? 

2 years?

never?

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The Figaro 3 is "foil assist" but not fully foiling however that is a full production boat. 

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"But honey, it has the word 'cruiser' in it so must be safe and seaworthy..."

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Within a decade at the latest.  I believe the 1992 designed Melges 24 will have a retrofit with 5 years.  Once this cycle of AC ends in March 2021 in Auckland, the knowledge base of foiling monohulls will be sufficient to begin designing new and retrofit kits for select classes.  I doubt you'll ever see a J24 foil.

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2 hours ago, JimBowie said:

Within a decade at the latest.  I believe the 1992 designed Melges 24 will have a retrofit with 5 years.  Once this cycle of AC ends in March 2021 in Auckland, the knowledge base of foiling monohulls will be sufficient to begin designing new and retrofit kits for select classes.  I doubt you'll ever see a J24 foil.

I agree and look forward to this.  They only thing I would change is I would prefer to never see a J24 again.  I have already pissed off an amazing number of posters this week so, why not.   I am getting pretty old, my very first time on a sailboat was an FD and I want to foil before I die.  I was so fortunate to see NZ kick Oracle in Bermuda and would have traded a nut to be on that boat.  Fast is fun.

edit: A foiling FD, now that would be a hoot and a half. 

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There's a 53 foot hydrfoiling day cat built in Bristol out there. Randy Smythe was involved in building her. You could cruise her with a camp stove. She was shipped from Florida to the Bahamas after being outfitted last fall.

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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

I agree and look forward to this.  They only thing I would change is I would prefer to never see a J24 again.  I have already pissed off an amazing number of posters this week so, why not.   I am getting pretty old, my very first time on a sailboat was an FD and I want to foil before I die.  I was so fortunate to see NZ kick Oracle in Bermuda and would have traded a nut to be on that boat.  Fast is fun.

edit: A foiling FD, now that would be a hoot and a half. 

These things are suppose to be the easiest (and probably cheapest) way to get into foiling.  I am still thinking about getting one.

 

 

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image.thumb.png.5c48dc7ae2525dbaaf9a6805dd8c7363.png

Pogo now have a racing foiling production boat in the Mini Transat 6.5m - can't be long before it makes it into the cruising range.

Imagine - a 12.50 with foils ^_^

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1 hour ago, cianclarke said:

image.thumb.png.5c48dc7ae2525dbaaf9a6805dd8c7363.png

Pogo now have a racing foiling production boat in the Mini Transat 6.5m - can't be long before it makes it into the cruising range.

Imagine - a 12.50 with foils ^_^

Can you imagine the rating shitfights that would break out in IRC and PHRF.

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Are people really going to try make lead+hydrofoils mainstream? Converting an F18 to foiling would seem to be a lot more practical than converting an 1800 pound Melges 24.

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1 hour ago, Tunnel Rat said:

Can you imagine the rating shitfights that would break out in IRC and PHRF.

No need to imagine.

Check out the Australian OMR foiling/rating shitfights for a heads up to how thats going to turn out.:D

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9 hours ago, cianclarke said:

image.thumb.png.5c48dc7ae2525dbaaf9a6805dd8c7363.png

Pogo now have a racing foiling production boat in the Mini Transat 6.5m - can't be long before it makes it into the cruising range.

Imagine - a 12.50 with foils ^_^

Afraid this ones a proto. 

 

It’s gonna be a while before we see a full foiling racer cruiser.  We’re starting to see foil assisted boats already.

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10 hours ago, Tomfl said:

These things are suppose to be the easiest (and probably cheapest) way to get into foiling.  I am still thinking about getting one.

 

 

Me too, but I’m too old to handle it as a steady diet.

I assume foil assisted will continue to become mainstream, Melges or J/Boats? A full foiling cruiser could take a while. Even when the tech is robust enough, I’d think the cost premium would really limit the market but I hope I’m wrong.

I’m anxious to see how the AC75’s work out, seems beyond comprehension but they’ve already foiled presumably under ideal conditions. However I don’t see that particular approach to foiling ever going to production, docking nightmare among other issues.

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7 hours ago, MidPack said:

Me too, but I’m too old to handle it as a steady diet.

I assume foil assisted will continue to become mainstream, Melges or J/Boats? A full foiling cruiser could take a while. Even when the tech is robust enough, I’d think the cost premium would really limit the market but I hope I’m wrong.

I’m anxious to see how the AC75’s work out, seems beyond comprehension but they’ve already foiled presumably under ideal conditions. However I don’t see that particular approach to foiling ever going to production, docking nightmare among other issues.

The real question is just what mainstream is.  Very few of us will ever see, less yet touch, or sail on a Gunboat (substitute your favorite exotic here).  I have a high school buddy who works for Doyle Sails who actually sailed on the Maltese Falcon; another boat I doubt I will ever have a chance to meet close up.  Yet to some extent these are mainstream in a sense.  At the other extreme take generic Corsair tri.  I have sailed them; put them together, taken them apart, and seriously considered buying one.  Most would agree the Corsair tris were responsible for making tris mainstream.  Yet I doubt five percent of folks on the water have sailed on one.

 

I have no doubt that there is a venture capitalist somewhere like Tom Perkins who will build a full foiling cruiser that to quote an old song will 'make it to the cover of the Rolling Stone'.  Not to mention the Tom Perkins wannabe who will then build one bigger and faster.

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16 minutes ago, Tomfl said:

The real question is just what mainstream is.  Very few of us will ever see, less yet touch, or sail on a Gunboat (substitute your favorite exotic here).  I have a high school buddy who works for Doyle Sails who actually sailed on the Maltese Falcon; another boat I doubt I will ever have a chance to meet close up.  Yet to some extent these are mainstream in a sense.  At the other extreme take generic Corsair tri.  I have sailed them; put them together, taken them apart, and seriously considered buying one.  Most would agree the Corsair tris were responsible for making tris mainstream.  Yet I doubt five percent of folks on the water have sailed on one.

 

I have no doubt that there is a venture capitalist somewhere like Tom Perkins who will build a full foiling cruiser that to quote an old song will 'make it to the cover of the Rolling Stone'.  Not to mention the Tom Perkins wannabe who will then build one bigger and faster.

I think you quoted the wrong post, I mentioned Melges and J/Boats directly. Not everyone can afford them, but I’d consider them mainstream in the world of production sailboat builders. Then 30 years later there’ll be foiling Catalinas and Hunters. jk

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19 hours ago, Tomfl said:

These things are suppose to be the easiest (and probably cheapest) way to get into foiling.  I am still thinking about getting one.

 

 

Seems like windsurfing with lots of gear. 

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22 hours ago, spankoka said:

Are people really going to try make lead+hydrofoils mainstream? Converting an F18 to foiling would seem to be a lot more practical than converting an 1800 pound Melges 24.

Sure, lots easier to make a 400# catamaran foil than a monoslug leadbellied Melges, but that's not my point.  Foiling has so much power, the #1800 Melges won't matter and the foil can be so tiny it won't seem feasible, but facts is facts.

 

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On 10/4/2019 at 5:25 AM, Tunnel Rat said:

Can you imagine the rating shitfights that would break out in IRC and PHRF.

"I'm sorry sir, but you transitioned from your splash rating to your airborne rating on the second downwind leg and corrected behind...."

We would have to have electronics detecting shifting from displacement mode to foil born mode to determine how much time on one rating vs the other would be counted in a race.

- Stumbling

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Would take some foils to lift a 15 ton 50 foot cruiser/racer.

Just how many heads and how much teak are you prepared to leave behind.

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the People's CruzeFoilr should be launched any day now

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On 10/3/2019 at 11:35 AM, gavin_gee said:

who and when do you reckon we will see a racer cruiser with the ability to foil? 

5 years? 

2 years?

never?

Well, this one will be available for sale and conversion to a cruiser just after AC75 in 2021...make an offer :-)

 

https://www.sailmagazine.com/racing/prada-launches-its-first-ac7

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On 10/3/2019 at 8:09 PM, Tomfl said:

These things are suppose to be the easiest (and probably cheapest) way to get into foiling.  I am still thinking about getting one.

 

 

Easiest, perhaps but still a hell of a lot of complication and hardly anything like a cruiser. The UFO thread is so many pages long as people try to get the hang of them, it isn't at all like hopping aboard any other dinghy and going for a sail. Hell, most people don't seem to be able to foil them at all without constantly coming off the foils or tipping over. 

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2 hours ago, fprintf said:

Easiest, perhaps but still a hell of a lot of complication and hardly anything like a cruiser. The UFO thread is so many pages long as people try to get the hang of them, it isn't at all like hopping aboard any other dinghy and going for a sail. Hell, most people don't seem to be able to foil them at all without constantly coming off the foils or tipping over. 

I got in the UFO prototype on the Charles River a while back and I was foiling in light and shifty conditions within minutes.  If you are a competent dinghy sailor you can foil in a UFO pretty easily.   

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On 10/5/2019 at 5:13 AM, MidPack said:

I think you quoted the wrong post, I mentioned Melges and J/Boats directly. Not everyone can afford them, but I’d consider them mainstream in the world of production sailboat builders. Then 30 years later there’ll be foiling Catalinas and Hunters. jk

Really? How is anyone going to reduce the very high cost of the foils and the boxes?  How many Catalinas and Hunters are remotely light enough to foil?  How many people are prepared to give up interior space, simplicity and light air pace in exchange for going faster when reaching in a breeze?  Who wants to anti-foul the interior of their foil cases? 

If going fast was so important to the J/Boat crowd why haven't they been sailing Farriers etc for the last 30 years?  If going fast was so important to the Catalina crowd why haven't they been sailing racer/cruiser multis or J/boats the last 30 years?  

What foiler or high performance boat are you sailing now? If you are not sailing one, why will other people sail them?

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On 10/5/2019 at 11:02 AM, JimBowie said:

Sure, lots easier to make a 400# catamaran foil than a monoslug leadbellied Melges, but that's not my point.  Foiling has so much power, the #1800 Melges won't matter and the foil can be so tiny it won't seem feasible, but facts is facts.

 

Really? What about the upwind and light wind performance issues of dragging those foils around? Apparently the foiling Open 60s weigh 10% more than the non-foilers and are slower in light airs and upwind, which are the dominant conditions for most boats. How is the Melges going to handle the higher apparent winds?

Those 400lb catamarans only gain 2% from foiling according to the Small Catamaran Handicap Rating System despite the fact that compared to a Melges or just about any other mono they are better suited to foiling because of their low drag rigs, low drag hulls and high stability. 

What foiler are you sailing now? If you are not sailing one, why will other people sail one?

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6 hours ago, Curious said:

Really? How is anyone going to reduce the very high cost of the foils and the boxes?  How many Catalinas and Hunters are remotely light enough to foil?  How many people are prepared to give up interior space, simplicity and light air pace in exchange for going faster when reaching in a breeze?  Who wants to anti-foul the interior of their foil cases? 

If going fast was so important to the J/Boat crowd why haven't they been sailing Farriers etc for the last 30 years?  If going fast was so important to the Catalina crowd why haven't they been sailing racer/cruiser multis or J/boats the last 30 years?  

What foiler or high performance boat are you sailing now? If you are not sailing one, why will other people sail them?

Wow, lighten up Francis. We don’t know what a foiling production racer/cruiser will look like yet, no one said it’ll be a current Catalina or even Melges. I never thought I’d see a 75 foot “monohull” foil, but we have now.

There was a time when people couldn’t imagine automobiles. Couldn’t imagine planes. Couldn't imagine air conditioning. Couldn’t imagine personal computers. Couldn’t imagine smartphones. Plasma flat screen TVs were $20K, now anyone can afford a 55” LED TV. The list is endless, as is the list of people who can’t imagine most innovation. 

I said “A full foiling cruiser could take a while. Even when the tech is robust enough, I’d think the cost premium would really limit the market but I hope I’m wrong.” I also said “Then 30 years later there’ll be foiling Catalinas and Hunters. jk” Evidently you don’t know what “jk” means...

I wouldn’t be surprised if we see a reasonably priced production foiler - but it won’t happen soon. We have the Figaro 3 now, but that’s just a start.

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On 10/3/2019 at 10:56 PM, spankoka said:

Are people really going to try make lead+hydrofoils mainstream? Converting an F18 to foiling would seem to be a lot more practical than converting an 1800 pound Melges 24.

Already exists:

Reality is that boat wasn't particularly fast in floating F18 mode (lots of water in the trunks on rev1), and the foiling kit is close to the cost of a used straight board F18. No real idea how they do around the track in foiling mode. Most of the F18 fleet aren't particularly interested in foiling as the boats are plenty fast as is and already have a high crew workload. I suspect this will be the case in many classes where foiling is discussed.

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A thread where exactly what constitutes a "production racer/cruiser with foiling" is being interpreted in all sorts of ways - which makes it sort of pointless. Some people are thinking about a radically different "hull," others are assuming a foiling 4KSB. Some people are thinking about any foil that reduces wetted surface like DSS or Dali foils, others are thinking only of full on out of the water foiling with everything but the foils out of the water. And some are thinking about a cruiser with the accommodations of a current day Hunter, while others are thinking ultra bare bones "accommodations."

Add the (mostly) old purists who long for the days of displacement sailing and hate most change, and the thread is sorta meaningless?

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8 hours ago, Chimp too said:

I believe that a good number of Quant 23s have been sold. Surely that counts.

The "good number" seems to be about a dozen boats built; not huge for four years production for a 23 foot sportsboat. It's being outsold by the J/70 by over 100 to one.

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10 hours ago, MidPack said:

Wow, lighten up Francis. We don’t know what a foiling production racer/cruiser will look like yet, no one said it’ll be a current Catalina or even Melges. I never thought I’d see a 75 foot “monohull” foil, but we have now.

There was a time when people couldn’t imagine automobiles. Couldn’t imagine planes. Couldn't imagine air conditioning. Couldn’t imagine personal computers. Couldn’t imagine smartphones. Plasma flat screen TVs were $20K, now anyone can afford a 55” LED TV. The list is endless, as is the list of people who can’t imagine most innovation. 

I said “A full foiling cruiser could take a while. Even when the tech is robust enough, I’d think the cost premium would really limit the market but I hope I’m wrong.” I also said “Then 30 years later there’ll be foiling Catalinas and Hunters. jk” Evidently you don’t know what “jk” means...

I wouldn’t be surprised if we see a reasonably priced production foiler - but it won’t happen soon. We have the Figaro 3 now, but that’s just a start.

Sorry, I didn't notice the jk about Hunters and Catalinas. But the same remarks still apply to J Boats.

The history of innovation is something I love to read about, and while there are always problems in foreseeing the future, for every unforeseen innovation there are many old technologies that have not been overtaken by new ideas, and there are many ideas that have never come to fruition for good reason.  Remember the predictions for flying cars?  In sailing, the "global multihull era" was confidently forecast about 70 years ago by Tchetchet (sp) and it hasn't come remotely close to occurring. 

We also know that most people don't get their rocks off on speed and that most people - like you and most other SA posters - prefer slower boats. The F3's foils and boxes, by the way, cost a third of the cost of the entire boat according to a Beneteau manager. In earlier eras Beneteaus produced stripped-out IOR raceboats that never sold in the mass market and the water-ballasted Figaro 1 that, like canters and other water ballasted boats, never sold in the mass market. We therefore know that the fact that Beneteau produce a specialised raceboat does not mean that the ideas it includes will not make it in the mass market.

As for any implication that those who are against foilers are conservatives, you may have it backwards. As we saw years ago in the "people's foiler" threads and as Sam99's post reveals, those who actually sail really high-performance boats and foilers tend to be much more aware of the issues that will probably prevent them ever becoming really popular. Many of us have been trying to promote really high performance sailing for years, so we are much more aware of why it won't become popular than people whose experience lies in craft like J/Boats. For example, how many of your current crew would want to broach and wipe out at 27 knots?  How many of them have hit winches, stays and stanchions at that sort of speed? 

So the questions for many foiler proponents remain valid - have they bought a foiler or a really fast boat? If they have not done it, why will other people? 

 

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^^ We agree to disagree, no big deal. And don’t include me in that statement, not at all true.

Quote

We also know that most people don't get their rocks off on speed and that most people - like you and most other SA posters - prefer slower boats. 

 

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1 hour ago, MidPack said:

^^ We agree to disagree, no big deal. And don’t include me in that statement, not at all true.

 

I thought you'd had a J/ boat rating in the mid 80s, like my cruiser. I'm not knocking that sort of mid-speed J/boat at all, but the point was that you chose something that carried lead and rated in the 80s rather than (for example) a Farrier tri that would rate 60 seconds faster, a foiling Moth, a Farr 11, a Formula 18 beach cat (about -45 PHRF but still sailed by people in their 60s), a kiterfoiler, etc. And just as you traded off speed for other values, so will other people, because for most people pure speed is not where it's at.

 

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5 hours ago, Upp3 said:

I devoured Aerohydrodynamics of Sailing back when it came out but I guess this happened after it was published? IF not I wonder why it didn't get in Tony's book? MAYFLY, ICARUS and stuff were all in there. But this is like MONITOR only on an available existing boat of the time!

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True fast foiling monos are probably never going to be a mass appeal sort of thing, for the same reason that really fast armored vehicles aren't a mass appeal sort of thing.  When you stop fast in a vehicle - whether it's armored with tracks (sixty to zero more or less instantly) or a boat (40 kts to zero nearly instantly when the bow digs in) - people lose teeth and lots of other things.  The closest comparison is special operations boats.  If you look at the boats that SOCOM operators use to get around, the seats have 5 point racing harnesses, they have all sorts of shock absorption, and from what I hear from some friends in that community, spinal and head injuries and miscellaneous joint injuries in these boats are still a major cause of medical discharge, because water is essentially as hard as concrete once you're doing 25-30 kts, and it just gets harder and harder the faster you go.    

Fast foilers are no shit dangerous for well-trained pros.  Many of us amateurs throw shade at these pro sailing programs that lose racers without ever really questioning whether it's inherent in the nature of a 35 or 40 kt foiler to kill people, when that speed is enabled by control surfaces roughly the size of  Zdeno Chara's ice skates.

Say you had a mass market 22 foot cruiser racer - call it the Schmatalina 2200 - selling for $75k, capable of 30 kt performance in a 20 kt breeze.  I suspect plenty of casual sailors would die making ordinary boat handling errors that might be punishing in a J/70 going 10 knots slower, which would normally result in a sprain or some bumps.  If Schmatalina has competent attorneys, they won't let that thing anywhere near the casual sailing generalist market.  Or they're going to demand a larger retainer, up front, because Schmatalina isn't going to have any cash left to pay the lawyers.  Or maybe they can charge $250k for it just to keep it out of the hands of (most of) the ninnies.   

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On 10/6/2019 at 11:25 AM, eliboat said:

I got in the UFO prototype on the Charles River a while back and I was foiling in light and shifty conditions within minutes.  If you are a competent dinghy sailor you can foil in a UFO pretty easily.   

This. Is. True.  And its soooo much fun!

 

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47 minutes ago, Lex Teredo said:

True fast foiling monos are probably never going to be a mass appeal sort of thing, for the same reason that really fast armored vehicles aren't a mass appeal sort of thing.  When you stop fast in a vehicle - whether it's armored with tracks (sixty to zero more or less instantly) or a boat (40 kts to zero nearly instantly when the bow digs in) - people lose teeth and lots of other things.  The closest comparison is special operations boats.  If you look at the boats that SOCOM operators use to get around, the seats have 5 point racing harnesses, they have all sorts of shock absorption, and from what I hear from some friends in that community, spinal and head injuries and miscellaneous joint injuries in these boats are still a major cause of medical discharge, because water is essentially as hard as concrete once you're doing 25-30 kts, and it just gets harder and harder the faster you go.    

Fast foilers are no shit dangerous for well-trained pros.  Many of us amateurs throw shade at these pro sailing programs that lose racers without ever really questioning whether it's inherent in the nature of a 35 or 40 kt foiler to kill people, when that speed is enabled by control surfaces roughly the size of  Zdeno Chara's ice skates.

Say you had a mass market 22 foot cruiser racer - call it the Schmatalina 2200 - selling for $75k, capable of 30 kt performance in a 20 kt breeze.  I suspect plenty of casual sailors would die making ordinary boat handling errors that might be punishing in a J/70 going 10 knots slower, which would normally result in a sprain or some bumps.  If Schmatalina has competent attorneys, they won't let that thing anywhere near the casual sailing generalist market.  Or they're going to demand a larger retainer, up front, because Schmatalina isn't going to have any cash left to pay the lawyers.  Or maybe they can charge $250k for it just to keep it out of the hands of (most of) the ninnies.   

But you already have more than 30 knot performa nc in 20 kt breeze for 75 k or less.  More like 9k or less. Somehow they still sell like hotkakes.

I'm not seeing the danger on hydrofoil sailboats compared to all this engined madness.

https://www.sea-doo.com/watercraft/recreation/gti.html

cq5dam.web.768.768.png

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3 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

But you already have more than 30 knot performa nc in 20 kt breeze for 75 k or less.  More like 9k or less. Somehow they still sell like hotkakes.

I'm not seeing the danger on hydrofoil sailboats compared to all this engined madness.

https://www.sea-doo.com/watercraft/recreation/gti.html

cq5dam.web.768.768.png

No boom, no sharp edges, and it's hard to get trapped in one upside down or under the sails.  Of course, other than that, a jetski is identical to a sailboat.  I don't disagree that they'd seem to be similar in some ways but they seem like pretty distinct technologies, and honestly, there are a lot of safety features on a jetski that we cant implement on a sailboat - jetskis stop when you fall off, for instance. 

It's not really about the speed. It's about the sharp edges and the idea of mass marketing to people who probably shouldn't have tools that are quite that sharp.  I'm convinced the reason that 800+ horsepower Dodge Chargers are expensive is to keep kids and riff raff out of them, to limit the customer base to "sophisticated consumers" whose lawsuits can be defended by an argument that they knew what 845hp means and they assumed the risk. 

BTW, google Jetski Lawsuits.  It turns out there are plaintiff's attorneys specializing in that.  Top cause of injuries - high speed.  Then hitting solid objects.   

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On 10/9/2019 at 10:06 AM, Lex Teredo said:

True fast foiling monos are probably never going to be a mass appeal sort of thing, for the same reason that really fast armored vehicles aren't a mass appeal sort of thing.  When you stop fast in a vehicle - whether it's armored with tracks (sixty to zero more or less instantly) or a boat (40 kts to zero nearly instantly when the bow digs in) - people lose teeth and lots of other things.  The closest comparison is special operations boats.  If you look at the boats that SOCOM operators use to get around, the seats have 5 point racing harnesses, they have all sorts of shock absorption, and from what I hear from some friends in that community, spinal and head injuries and miscellaneous joint injuries in these boats are still a major cause of medical discharge, because water is essentially as hard as concrete once you're doing 25-30 kts, and it just gets harder and harder the faster you go.    

Fast foilers are no shit dangerous for well-trained pros.  Many of us amateurs throw shade at these pro sailing programs that lose racers without ever really questioning whether it's inherent in the nature of a 35 or 40 kt foiler to kill people, when that speed is enabled by control surfaces roughly the size of  Zdeno Chara's ice skates.

Say you had a mass market 22 foot cruiser racer - call it the Schmatalina 2200 - selling for $75k, capable of 30 kt performance in a 20 kt breeze.  I suspect plenty of casual sailors would die making ordinary boat handling errors that might be punishing in a J/70 going 10 knots slower, which would normally result in a sprain or some bumps.  If Schmatalina has competent attorneys, they won't let that thing anywhere near the casual sailing generalist market.  Or they're going to demand a larger retainer, up front, because Schmatalina isn't going to have any cash left to pay the lawyers.  Or maybe they can charge $250k for it just to keep it out of the hands of (most of) the ninnies.   

I won't bother arguing with you, but you're applying what you know today, as if it could never change. All innovation comes as a surprise to 99.99% of us. People buy motorcycles and cars that could kill you. Since we're dealing with watersports here, people buy power boats and jetskis that could (and do) kill them all the time. All of them figured out how to provide a relative safe product at a price enough people could afford to go into business.

No one is saying there will be foiling racer/cruisers that resemble anything like today's monohulls. Nor is anyone saying a foiling racer/cruiser that's as hard to handle as those currently sailed by "well-trained pros" would ever go into mass market production. When/if there is a production foiling racer/cruiser - it will be unlike anything today, and I'm guessing it's still a long way off.

Cars were once too dangerous to mass market. Motorcycles were once too dangerous to mass market. Power boats were once too dangerous to mass market. Planes were once too dangerous to mass market. Space flight was once impossible, now it's relatively routine for astronauts, and though it hasn't happened yet - they're selling tickets to civilians to go into space. And on and on and on...

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2 hours ago, MidPack said:

SNIP

Cars were once too dangerous to mass market. Motorcycles were once too dangerous to mass market. Power boats were once too dangerous to mass market.

SNIP

Some folks would say they still are.

guncar.jpg

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10 hours ago, Tomfl said:

Some folks would say they still are.

guncar.jpg

Proof by exception is a fools defense. At least in the US, 94% of fatal accidents are due to human error. BTW, do you own a car?

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On 10/5/2019 at 3:27 PM, TUBBY said:

Would take some foils to lift a 15 ton 50 foot cruiser/racer.

Just how many heads and how much teak are you prepared to leave behind.

I imagine that those were weighting a fair bit more than 15 tons!

c21e73a8de4529305b71bc5d3bbb7ddb.jpg

 

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13 hours ago, MidPack said:

I won't bother arguing with you, but you're applying what you know today, as if it could never change. All innovation comes as a surprise to 99.99% of us. People buy motorcycles and cars that could kill you. Since we're dealing with watersports here, people buy power boats and jetskis that could (and do) kill them all the time. All of them figured out how to provide a relative safe product at a price enough people could afford to go into business.

No one is saying there will be foiling racer/cruisers that resemble anything like today's monohulls. Nor is anyone saying a foiling racer/cruiser that's as hard to handle as those currently sailed by "well-trained pros" would ever go into mass market production. When/if there is a production foiling racer/cruiser - it will be unlike anything today, and I'm guessing it's still a long way off.

Cars were once too dangerous to mass market. Motorcycles were once too dangerous to mass market. Power boats were once too dangerous to mass market. Planes were once too dangerous to mass market. Space flight was once impossible, now it's relatively routine for astronauts, and though it hasn't happened yet - they're selling tickets to civilians to go into space. And on and on and on...

Sorry Mid. I'm sort of arguing past you. My bad.  I agree that things akin to foiling Hobies and foiling lasers and similar small fast boats for the already athletic set and people who already wear helmets and crash pads (or are amenable to it) are likely to become a thing.  That makes a lot of sense. There's (I think) a foiling Gunboat or something similar in Annapolis this week for the boat show. 

I was responding really more to the general proposition of the thread, which is that fast foiling cruiser racers - an approaching-middle-age-and-family mass market monohull segment - are going to become a big deal.  I don't think that's happening mass market cruiser racer monohulls.  A revolutionary new form of monohull?  Sure, maybe, but only if the definition of what a cruiser racer changes considerably.  The OP's question strikes me as similar to whether bike manufacturers will ever make a bike that is good at skiing.  Well sure, you can do that by putting skis on a bike in lieu of the wheels.  People do that... it's not really a bike any more though, it's skis with a seat and a steering device...  And I think that's where you are looking, to that radically different future. 

I blame the OP...
 

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So never for cruisers makes sense (even if the spectrum of what people deem a cruiser to be continues to widen).  You have to imagine that manufacturers like J boats are starting to think about what the future holds in this area.  yes it may increase the danger, but perhaps its the adrenaline and danger factor that "sailing" needs to rekindle its popularity.?   Whilst many a purist may not call it sailing, perhaps many of the risks could be tamed through the application of technology especially if the starting platform wasnt as twitchy as these on the edge AC racers. 

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On 10/5/2019 at 1:09 AM, stumblingthunder said:

"I'm sorry sir, but you transitioned from your splash rating to your airborne rating on the second downwind leg and corrected behind...."

We would have to have electronics detecting shifting from displacement mode to foil born mode to determine how much time on one rating vs the other would be counted in a race.

- Stumbling

Or don’t allow foiling boats to have hulls?  It is the next logical step-

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On 10/9/2019 at 8:53 AM, Curious said:

 

We also know that most people don't get their rocks off on speed and that most people - like you and most other SA posters - prefer slower boats.

So what gets your rocks off Cup cake? Apart from posting complete bullshit on here of course. And can you at least stick to one sock per thread? 

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You could argue that this is a really big hydrofoil that can’t fly- flap and everything!

 

A1C91BC1-EC13-48BE-B357-BEF2860B4486.jpeg

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5 hours ago, Amati said:

Or don’t allow foiling boats to have hulls?  It is the next logical step-

Already been done:

A race would have to have a fleet of pontoon boats as "mobile docks" to restart every time propulsion failed to keep you flying...

I also remember in the last year and a half watching a video of someone who tried to test a foiler without a hull or floatation and they had a really hard time.   It was maybe using some monohull rig.   Google foo was strong today:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyDxXqX6b_A&frags=pl%2Cwn

It was not a stunning success...

- Stumbling

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18 minutes ago, stumblingthunder said:

Already been done:

A race would have to have a fleet of pontoon boats as "mobile docks" to restart every time propulsion failed to keep you flying...

I also remember in the last year and a half watching a video of someone who tried to test a foiler without a hull or floatation and they had a really hard time.   It was maybe using some monohull rig.   Google foo was strong today:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyDxXqX6b_A&frags=pl%2Cwn

It was not a stunning success...

- Stumbling

But it would make ratings easier....

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