Bull City

Cruise Ships: blessing or curse?

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:
"We go over avalanche rescue procedures..and, We ski over to Lónafjörður".
I don't think so.

I"m headed there in April, not doing the live on a boat thing... seems a sure way to spend a lot of time in wet clothing. We are using heli assisted touring... combo heli skiing and ski mountaineering... glaciers involved. Skiing on glaciers is like many other things in life, dangerous without the proper training, approach, caution and understanding. Same part of Iceland as the link.

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Short op ed with some startling numbers..

Canada is in for a grey bloom in our demographics, as are some other places, the market will grow.

 

" Cruise ships around Europe’s coasts emitted 10 times more sulphur compounds in 2017 than all 260 million European cars did. "

" The triumph of Deng Xiaoping’s economic policies, for example, showed that to get rich is indeed glorious — 10.5 million Chinese travelled abroad in 2000, and 145 million did so in 2017. By 2030, the authors predict, the number will be 400 million. "

https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2019/11/14/Overtourism-British-Columbia/

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Simple fix - don't let the passengers ashore except to arrive and leave - otherwise they have to stay on the ship and look at the scenery.

Local vendors want to sell to them will have to paddle out to the ships to sell their wares.

Works on a smaller scale in lots of places. :D

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3 hours ago, Lono said:

I"m headed there in April, not doing the live on a boat thing... seems a sure way to spend a lot of time in wet clothing. We are using heli assisted touring... combo heli skiing and ski mountaineering... glaciers involved. Skiing on glaciers is like many other things in life, dangerous without the proper training, approach, caution and understanding. Same part of Iceland as the link.

Far too strenuous for me, Lono. Have a wonderful experience. Enjoy.

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39 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Simple fix - don't let the passengers ashore except to arrive and leave - otherwise they have to stay on the ship and look at the scenery.

Local vendors want to sell to them will have to paddle out to the ships to sell their wares.

Works on a smaller scale in lots of places. :D

OK if you want to just look at scenery and buy more shit, SJB. But if you want to experience the culture...?

Otherwise, might as well stay at home and go to the local casino, no? All the bling you can experience, for a fraction of the cost.

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2 hours ago, Norse Horse said:

" The triumph of Deng Xiaoping’s economic policies, for example, showed that to get rich is indeed glorious — 10.5 million Chinese travelled abroad in 2000, and 145 million did so in 2017. By 2030, the authors predict, the number will be 400 million. "

I think they were all in northern Italy three years ago.

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

OK if you want to just look at scenery and buy more shit, SJB. But if you want to experience the culture...?

Otherwise, might as well stay at home and go to the local casino, no? All the bling you can experience, for a fraction of the cost.

Experience the culture? :lol:

Cruise ship passengers? :lol:

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

OK if you want to just look at scenery and buy more shit, SJB. But if you want to experience the culture...?

If they wanted to experience the culture, they wouldn't be on a cruise ship. They'd be dressed like the locals, speak the local language (primary one for multilingual countries) and do their best to blend in as much as possible.

Obviously a Caucasian type in Outer Mongolia is going to be a bit conspicuous.

FKT

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34 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Experience the culture? :lol:

Cruise ship passengers? :lol:

Well...when you put it like that. It does seem a little unlikely. ;-)

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7 hours ago, Sailbydate said:
8 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Experience the culture? :lol:

Cruise ship passengers? :lol:

Well...when you put it like that. It does seem a little unlikely. ;-)

Going on a cruise ship is like going to the zoo, except the people doing it don't realize that they're actually the monkeys in the cage and paying for the privilege

FB- Doug

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I thought they were lab rats in a virus experiment.

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Cruised down the Nile in the late 90s on a 80 passenger, really good time. Valley of Kings, walkable small towns, climbed Cheops at midnight, (met some nice Egyptians in uniforms with guns) not recommended today I suppose 

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Just now, Rasputin22 said:

Anyone try this cruise? I was a short video on TV and it looked like pretty good alternative to the expense of flying to Europe for a river cruise there.

 

 

https://www.americancruiselines.com/cruises/alaska-and-pacific-northwest-cruises/columbia-and-snake-rivers-cruise

image.png

Not much to see but desert for most of it.

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34 minutes ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Cruised down the Nile in the late 90s on a 80 passenger, really good time. Valley of Kings, walkable small towns, climbed Cheops at midnight, (met some nice Egyptians in uniforms with guns) not recommended today I suppose 

Sailing down the Nile on a biggish felucca would be pretty relaxing I think.

Guns & terrorists & malaria etc. aside that is.

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45 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Not much to see but desert for most of it.

You don’t actually see any “desert,” or even the sub-arid steppe part, since the rivers are down in the bottom of canyons through most of that bit. These are the cruises that I mentioned a couple of times above - some of them stop in our marina for the night.  There are about seven or eight boats on that route - three or four of them do it regularly and the others after the Alaska season.  I thought they’d normally be done for the season, now that the snow has started, but I saw one of them yesterday.

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Come to think of it, the Bonneville lock was closed for emergency repairs for several weeks at the end of the summer and messed up everybody’s schedule.  It’s possible that they might be doing “make-up” cruises now.  

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On 11/8/2019 at 8:07 AM, Bull City said:

Please give us a report.

Ok so here goes

The cruise was exceptional. Not your typical diamond merchant to diamond merchant tour with 6000 of you newest overweight (or soon to become overweight) friends . Only 200 Pax. Well worth the price of admission

There were 18 of us from our YC so it was fun. 

Pax were +- 40% North American. 60% European. UK, German, French, Italian. 

Officers were mostly Eastern European. Great fun to talk to and ate with the passengers most meals. Single dining room so everyone eats together. 3 bars, Tropical... biggest and the hub. Piano Bar and Pool Bar. Booze was reasonable $4.00 for a beer (or a 3 finger pour of Mount Gay XO from our favourite Bar Man)

Ship was awesome... a true sailing vessel. 48 sails on 5 masts (2 x V16 cats to a single CPP would move her at 15knts if needed but Captains preference was always to sail.) Schedule reflected this with many shortish overnight sails to next port. 

Neat feature was the Marina Deck which opened up from the transom creating a dock and swim platform any time we were at anchor. Kayaks SUP's and even a couple of laser picos available for use.

Winds were light in the windward islands (Sebastien shut off the trades) be we had a few good sailing days later in the southern Caribbean. Needs 10 to sail but come alive 15-20 plus.

Most of the square sails and some of the fore and aft sails are on hydraulic furlers. 2 guys can take all the sail off her in 30 mins or so. Watch the 2 4-8 AB's do this multiple times as we approached ports.

1st sailaway from Bridgetown with Vangelis' Conquering Paradise (from movie soundtrack 1492) playing as the sails were hoisted was spine tingling.

Ports were good as we rarely went to the mega ports. +- 50-50 Alongside vs Anchor off. Of course everywhere there were locals selling trinkets but felt better the money going direct to locals rather than the typical large diamond corporations, duty frees and Chinese Tat stores. 

Didn't do any tours... preferred to rent a car and travel independently. Exception was a self arranged tour in Cartagena arranged through www.toursbylocals.com Highly recommend this approach... our guide was great and took us off the beaten path. Uber in Panama City is outstanding and super cheap.

Too many highlights to mention them all... 1st Sailaway out of Bridgetown, Sailing off the anchor in Santa Marta Columbia. Spinning the ship in its own length in the cut at Willemstad Curaco without tugs, and without scratching the late Paul Allen's mega yacht Tatoosh. (I swear the bowsprit was over the dockside warehouses) Accessibility to Bridge deck any time! (They roped it off when conning ship but you are still right there) San Blas Islands in Panama.

Would I do it again Hell yes !!! (Have to save some pennies though)

PM if you need specifics

 

VM

Royal Clipper.jpeg

Alongside Bridgetown.jpeg

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^^ I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I took this three years ago from Giudecca (part of Venice). We were in a building several stories high (drinking IIRC).

venice.thumb.jpg.564f1b7b99a3b178706c62cdf52827b2.jpg

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Pics like that will become collectible now that those monstrosities have been banned from Venice.

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Any thoughts about the White Island, New Zealand disaster? The cruise line should have been aware of the alert status.

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4 hours ago, Bull City said:

Any thoughts about the White Island, New Zealand disaster? The cruise line should have been aware of the alert status.

There's a whole thread on it.

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4 hours ago, IStream said:

Interesting article here on the economics of building new cruise ships versus stretching older ones:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-04/why-cruise-lines-keep-cutting-their-ships-in-half-for-stretching?mc_cid=17970e9ab5&mc_eid=e41cebafd4

Nothing new there - they've been doing that to our ferries as long as I can remember.

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A couple of things surprised me.

1. A 30 year old ship can get 20 more years of useful life out of the legacy infrastructure on board

2. That re-powering makes such a difference in fuel usage. I know the modern engines are far cleaner and that overcomes a regulatory burden but I didn't expect a huge increase in efficiency. Then again, they didn't provide any numbers so maybe it's not that huge.

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I will give a full review of my 5 star Amsterdam river small ship cruise after we do in April.

I'll have my road bicycle aboard for day rides. We have a large suite with a private veranda. Everything is included.Rhine-River-Cruise-Amsterdam.jpg

45464e3aa815429aaeb3b1daa2079c5a.jpg

TulipTime_Netherlands_Hoorn_iStock_80695

 

 

 

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Based on the current virus scenario:

Say Good Bye to the cruise ship blight.  Sayonara, Arrivaderci, TA-ta, Adios....

 

 

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On 11/14/2019 at 1:20 PM, Sailbydate said:
"We go over avalanche rescue procedures..and, We ski over to Lónafjörður".
I don't think so.

HAHA..  St Marries Glacier 1988 ish.  Just finished dry-land training w ski team and we were jonesing for some turns.  Drove up, camped, hiked, finally got down the most rutted up(Vertically not horrizontally, Ice melt caused the icy trenches) pos run ever.   Best part was going back up.  As we hiked, we happened to be right next to a group of climbers, Roped up, full crampons and ice axes.  Us in skiboots, tshirts and shorts w our 210's over our shoulders.  said Hi, waved and up we went.  The looks on their faces as we hiked were priceless....  The 2nd time, after skiing down pretty much next to them, was even better.  

 

Ah Youth.....  

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On 11/30/2019 at 12:13 PM, SloopJonB said:

Not much to see but desert for most of it.

Drive it backwards, from richmond.  It gets tons better as you get closer to the coast.  Took about 36 leisurely hrs going slow a couple yrs ago while looking at colleges.  Overnight'd around Umatallia and  in Cascade locks.  Really could not imagine spending more time than that without doing some form of recreation (sailing, sindsufring, tubing, hiking camping etc.) to pass the time.  We were on a whirlwind tour with the HS junior at the time looking at schools in the area, so not a ton of time, but frankly, driving around was better than being stuck on a boat (or any of the towns along the way).  The area is amazing, BTW, and you should visit, just don't know if a cruise ship is the best mode of transport unless this is part of a larger itinerary that includes other branches or tributaries(or seattle :) ).  You can see most of the river from the highway BTW, big valley obviously, Kind of like driving Glenwood Canyon with a ton more H20.  Lots to see, not much to experience unless you are there for that specific reason (camping, hiking, sailing etc.) assume that the trips off the boat will be by bus anyway, so well......., I would rather have my own ride...   

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Well that got me curious to look up this year's schedule - they start the first cruises in ten days from now.  They'll be bussing up past my place to look at the wildflowers.  Good grief - fares range from $5000 to $13000.  I can't even imagine who would shell out that much, for this... But they do.  

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

The picnic area?

Yep. The cabin side profile gives it away. The picnic area sides are a long flat segment in an otherwise gently-sloping profile.

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1 hour ago, Shu said:

Yep. The cabin side profile gives it away. The picnic area sides are a long flat segment in an otherwise gently-sloping profile.

Same with the shear. Too bad, otherwise I would have bought that sucker.

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5 hours ago, Bull City said:

The picnic area?

Yep - the straight part between the kinks in the sheerline.

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On 11/30/2019 at 1:10 PM, Rasputin22 said:

Anyone try this cruise? I was a short video on TV and it looked like pretty good alternative to the expense of flying to Europe for a river cruise there.

 

 

https://www.americancruiselines.com/cruises/alaska-and-pacific-northwest-cruises/columbia-and-snake-rivers-cruise

image.png

The same line also operates on the Mississippi.  I occasionally encounter their boats.  They are small and shallow draft, with little dependence on shoreside facilities.  Sometimes I see them tied up in Red Wing with a big passerelle out to load and unload passengers..

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On 12/10/2019 at 11:59 PM, SloopJonB said:

Pics like that will become collectible now that those monstrosities have been banned from Venice.

is it "have been banned" or "will be banned" ? thing is I know that place quite well and also the cruise/ferry terminal situation, having been through there about 10 times during last years on my way to Greece and back, and so situation is see (last passage for me was last may) is that for the foreseeable time there is no way they can ban them unless they really tell them to piss off totally. What is happening is following : the ferry I take was first years also on the cruise terminal, same as for those fugly behemots and through the canal, but since 3 years ferries are banned to Marghera, that's a couple kilometers sideways ashore, going in/out on another canal, you see Venice from a distance. At that place they are slowly slowly (piano piano ;-)  ) building a new dock that could cater for big ships, but nowhere near all the cruise monsters, so either they really limit the number of big ones, or it will take many years until they can really ban the fucking ugly fornicatoriums to Marghera.

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62CD48BD-8F87-46A0-AE97-330A67A160FD.thumb.jpeg.92d65dfdc09fa559fe26343ca4eebee4.jpeg

 

D07A6AFE-0E67-4DB3-85DF-F1B39C8F3A76.thumb.jpeg.fac8b02d5d82769eef2f100904247b94.jpeg

 

I haven’t had any concerns with cruise ships, they keep a respectable distance away. It’s these suckers that are cause for concern. I hailed both at one and a half nautical miles. One completely ignored me and the other altered course by a few degrees within a half mile of me....after mumbling a response in Turkish.....

 

 

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How come S....A.....F....I....,s always complain about the unprofessional behaviour of professional seamen ??

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Lemme see... small boat more maneuverable, not on a working schedule, nor constrained by traffic scheme. It takes two miles for some of these large craft to maneuver and you hailed at one.

Here’s a tip: stay out of the way of working vessels. It’s the decent thing to do.

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35 minutes ago, Max Rockatansky said:

Lemme see... small boat more maneuverable, not on a working schedule, nor constrained by traffic scheme. It takes two miles for some of these large craft to maneuver and you hailed at one.

Here’s a tip: stay out of the way of working vessels. It’s the decent thing to do.

Lemme see....in the first photo I was about 350nm north of Bermuda doing about six knots under sail........

Lemme see....in the second photo I was about 150nm north of Bermuda doing about five knots under sail.....

A traffic scheme was not part of the equation ........

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4 hours ago, Paranda said:

How come S....A.....F....I....,s always complain about the unprofessional behaviour of professional seamen ??

Well.....sometimes they act in an unprofessional manner......

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8 hours ago, Orion Jim said:

62CD48BD-8F87-46A0-AE97-330A67A160FD.thumb.jpeg.92d65dfdc09fa559fe26343ca4eebee4.jpeg

 

D07A6AFE-0E67-4DB3-85DF-F1B39C8F3A76.thumb.jpeg.fac8b02d5d82769eef2f100904247b94.jpeg

 

I haven’t had any concerns with cruise ships, they keep a respectable distance away. It’s these suckers that are cause for concern. I hailed both at one and a half nautical miles. One completely ignored me and the other altered course by a few degrees within a half mile of me....after mumbling a response in Turkish.....

 

 

....and this makes them unprofessional?  How so?

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With AIS and the vessel name I have not ever had a problem hailing commercial vessels. Without a name not nearly as much success. Most crews on these ships are good, like anything else a few are not. Can't tell from these photos but a lot depends on what you view as an appropriate CPA. They may think they are giving you enough room, you might want more so you need to adjust your course. We have had many freighters alter their course by a degree or two long before we could even see them. As they passed they resumed their previous heading.

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8 hours ago, Orion Jim said:

62CD48BD-8F87-46A0-AE97-330A67A160FD.thumb.jpeg.92d65dfdc09fa559fe26343ca4eebee4.jpeg

 

D07A6AFE-0E67-4DB3-85DF-F1B39C8F3A76.thumb.jpeg.fac8b02d5d82769eef2f100904247b94.jpeg

 

I haven’t had any concerns with cruise ships, they keep a respectable distance away. It’s these suckers that are cause for concern. I hailed both at one and a half nautical miles. One completely ignored me and the other altered course by a few degrees within a half mile of me....after mumbling a response in Turkish.....

 

 

Ya some merchant ship handling is spooky. 

Just a couple examples..

I was a cadet training on a fully loaded tanker coming from Valdez into the entrance of Juan de Fuca.  A rusty SE Asian containership was coming out, as he clears the straits, he makes a left turn right across our bow.  I was on the bridge, the master blasts 5 horns, orders helm over to port and astern engines so we wouldn't ram the bastard.  We would've t boned the f**ker.  No answer on the radio.  

Similar experience on the NY Maritime training ship, my first training sea term.  We were transiting the busy channel north of Denmark headed into Gothenburg, wee hours after midnight.  I wasn't on deck, was in the rack in the hold with the other roughly hundred or so deck cadets trying to sleep stacked in 3 high racks.  The ship lurched over, throwing half the kids out of their racks, and knocked over some of our storage lockers, which were bolted down but broke free.  Thankfully they didn't fall on anybody.  Word from one of the kids on watch was the other ship was paralleling our course on our stbd side going a bit faster.  Got a bit bow in front, the cut his helm over to port and would have hit us if our guys hadn't thrown the helm over. Captain calls the other ship on the radio, asking him hey wtf, guy answers back fuck off.

Stay away from merchant ships, never know what they're gonna do.

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On 10/7/2019 at 1:38 PM, shaggy said:

HAHAHA yea, $$100 to ski...  That is so 2005.

Since posting the 10 Most Expensive Lift Tickets In The USA back in 2016, the price at Vail/Beaver has gone from $175 to $209. Another Vail owned resort, Breckenridge is a close 2nd with their single day, adult lift ticket going for a whopping $189 .

 

It is actually cheaper for a week long family vacation to buy a season pass when they go on sale in the spring, but resorts (Vail industries) have caught on and now require instate residency...  

Not entirely true. Although I have no love for the corporate Vail Resorts, and early season discounts are over, our unlimited Epic Passes are $979 for anyone residing anywhere, and good at about (it seems) a million areas, including a bunch of regionals and international resorts. They got really strong in the NE last year, and besides Vail and the Beav we also have Whistler, Telluride, Breck and Park City where it matters, too.

Then again, since my wife is a lifelong pro ski instructor, she still does a few favorite long term privates every year, my kids and I get a freebie. ;-)

On the subject of cruise ships, my Mom was a lifelong travel agent/cruise specialist, and kept steering her more educated clients toward the small "expedition" style 200-passenger ships with educational guides and giant RIBs, Viking-style Euro river cruises, European canal barge cruises, and the sailing clipper cruises. She delegated what I called the "white trash" or feedlot cruises to a younger associate. 

When we were at anchor in Cook's Bay in Moorea, a small German "research vessel" cruise was nearby, and the customers were smart and interesting. One couple even took an early morning shore trip, and stopped by to deliver us French government-subsidized baguettes on the cruise line's RIB, after we had "socialized" ashore with them the night before. That was an extremely cool gesture, considering our slow recovery from the previous night. ;-)

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there's a lotta water out there , why go and play with the ships ?

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If I was on the open ocean and the AIS said a CPA was < 1 mile I'd either alter course a bit or ask them to steer a few degrees. There is enough variance in MY course bouncing around that anything less than 0.5m feels close.

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to be honest in the open ocean you should not be anywhere near ships .

congested waterways like the Malacca Straits , easy > ships need more water than you do to float so .....

Red Sea , now you need to keep a sharp look out and stay along side BUT out of the separation schemes .

asking ships to alter course is unnecessary .

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15 hours ago, Mid said:

to be honest in the open ocean you should not be anywhere near ships .

congested waterways like the Malacca Straits , easy > ships need more water than you do to float so .....

Red Sea , now you need to keep a sharp look out and stay along side BUT out of the separation schemes .

asking ships to alter course is unnecessary .

Trouble with this attitude of giving space whereas you are stay on is that if you both decide to alter you course in opposite direction you are in trouble.

When crossing the English channel, it is very common to have to take action. I just hail them by VHF asking something like "This is sailing vessel XXX on your portside 3 NM ahead, I believe that we are on collision course, what are your intentions please?" They tend to reply that they are about to alter their course without you even asking them explicitly to do so, I've even heard some chatting on 77 giving each other clues like "Watch out there is a fishing boat ahead... No I think it is sailing one cos' he goes on a straight course... yeah OK, I am coming to starboard to pass behind... OK... few minutes later... Yeah I can see its lights, it is definitely a sailing boat" Obviously if you are the said sailing boat, you don't notice that he's taking action and suddenly decide to pass behind him because "he's working and it's safer", you are just about to wreak havoc!

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23 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Trouble with this attitude of giving space whereas you are stay on is that if you both decide to alter you course in opposite direction you are in trouble.

When crossing the English channel, it is very common to have to take action. I just hail them by VHF asking something like "This is sailing vessel XXX on your portside 3 NM ahead, I believe that we are on collision course, what are your intentions please?" They tend to reply that they are about to alter their course without you even asking them explicitly to do so, I've even heard some chatting on 77 giving each other clues like "Watch out there is a fishing boat ahead... No I think it is sailing one cos' he goes on a straight course... yeah OK, I am coming to starboard to pass behind... OK... few minutes later... Yeah I can see its lights, it is definitely a sailing boat" Obviously if you are the said sailing boat, you don't notice that he's taking action and suddenly decide to pass behind him because "he's working and it's safer", you are just about to wreak havoc!

Iirc Patrick Laine (with c so youtube sailor instead of hockey player), got some nasty words too when he tried to be nice instead of doing what the rules say.

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I sail in a seriously busy bit of ocean.  The southern North Sea. Crossing to The Netherlands can feel a bit like being a hedgehog trying to cross the road at times.

I've followed the  advice of a pal who is a retired ship's master and a Thames Estuary pilot.  'Do what the Colregs tell you to do'. 

Having an AIS transponder and a radar target enhancer certainly helps the peace of mind.

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Two brief stories. When in the Caribbean a few years ago, we did a complete rig overhaul in the BVI. Then left for the Windward islands, broke a chainplate inside the deck and a stay went flying, managed to get turned around and headed back to St. Martens on the opposite tack, cruise ship coming towards me still 5 miles away on collision course, tried to call on VHF, no answer, explained I was under jury rig, blind transmission, still no answer or indication he might change course just a few degrees to miss us.  Scared the bejeesus out of us, very close pass and much rock and roll in his wake.  We didn't lose the mast.

Second story.  When cruise ships were first allowed in to "a nameless island' they used to turn the town water off so they could fill the ship with town water.

Curse

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pre-covid - just a nuisance

post-covid - a curse, for sure

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It's been years since I sailed in crowded waters (US destroyer in 1970s), however, the rule of thumb was to make your intentions known early. I think it's good advice.

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On 11/15/2019 at 6:04 AM, Steam Flyer said:

Going on a cruise ship is like going to the zoo, except the people doing it don't realize that they're actually the monkeys in the cage and paying for the privilege

FB- Doug

 

On 11/15/2019 at 7:56 AM, SloopJonB said:

I thought they were lab rats in a virus experiment.

Interesting to happen across these prescient posts from last fall. 

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On 5/24/2020 at 6:01 PM, Max Rockatansky said:

@Orion Jim

 https://www.amazon.com/Avoid-Huge-Ships-John-Trimmer/dp/0870334336

 

 not that you’re interested, but someone else may be

The comments are a riot.  Here's a sample:

"I think this book misses the bigger issue. We shouldn't be just avoiding huge ships. We should be confronting them. If we spend our lives running away, the huge ships win."

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The cruise ship season has been entirely cancelled here - currently until October.

I wonder how many - or if any - cruise lines will fold over this situation. I can't imagine anyone wanting to go on one again after the horror stories that came out recently.

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

The cruise ship season has been entirely cancelled here - currently until October.

I wonder how many - or if any - cruise lines will fold over this situation. I can't imagine anyone wanting to go on one again after the horror stories that came out recently.

Unlimited free food + unlimited free drinks will attract a certain group.

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Mate of mine lives in Weymouth. When I spoke to him last week I think the were 9 anchored in the bay.

Focuses the mind on the amount of investment doing nothing.

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13 hours ago, slap said:

Unlimited free food + unlimited free drinks will attract a certain group.

maxresdefault.thumb.jpg.75690cb26bd377fe55f6eb1fc442f39f.jpg

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On 6/1/2020 at 5:21 AM, bgytr said:

 

No no no no no.

No.

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52 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

No no no no no.

No.

Unless you are determined to lose weight - just enlarge and place on the fridge door. Both sides.

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20 hours ago, d'ranger said:

Unless you are determined to lose weight - just enlarge and place on the fridge door. Both sides.

I would need to wrap the whole fridge twice to get all that in. I suppose that would work even better.

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Small cruise ship.

1947686483_Wumo2020-07-03.thumb.png.1651049797c0d848fb1cd633c82b1917.png

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