100% foiled races?

[Kiwing 279]

Will some one solve this puzzle completely and do a 100% foiled race in under 12 knots TWS?

[Kiwing 279]

Wow 100% say yes !!  That is brave!

 

But I will wait for @Basiliscus for the vote that tells?

[Crux 15]

10 knots minimum yes

8 knots probably if wind direction and speed reasonably constant.

6 knots no - when does it blow steadily enough at this wind speed for them to keep up momentum at all times?

 

[Boybland 515]

I think we have already seen enough to think that if you get a steady 10 - 12 knot day someone will be able to keep it foiling either 100% or very close to it.

It drops off rapidly under 10 knots though I suspect, the 8 - 10 knot range would be a definite no for 100% foiling for me.

[KoW 16]

3 minutes ago, Boybland said:

I think we have already seen enough to think that if you get a steady 10 - 12 knot day someone will be able to keep it foiling either 100% or very close to it.

It drops off rapidly under 10 knots though I suspect, the 8 - 10 knot range would be a definite no for 100% foiling for me.

Agree wholeheartedly - big big difference between 11kn and 8kn IMO.

Would be easier to speculate if we'd seen some manuevers!

[Lickindip 479]

Can the boats have a code zero and a code 1 up at the same time?

Get foiling with both up, roll up the zero and complete the rest of the race???

[Stingray~ 1,223]

If every AC36 Finals race is sailed in under 12 knots TWS then it will be another boring blowout, ala Bermuda. Whoever gambled their design for that narrow a bottom-end TWS and got very f’ing lucky will win. 

[KoW 16]

If every finals race is sailed in under 12knots TWS in the Hauraki gulf then there will have to have been some serious climate change going on over the next year!

[Stingray~ 1,223]

23 minutes ago, KoW said:

If every finals race is sailed in under 12knots TWS in the Hauraki gulf then there will have to have been some serious climate change going on over the next year!

That freaky of a thing happened in Bermuda! 

The general trend in the HG is toward lighter from Jan to March, right? ETNZ can target March, could even set a low-low upper wind limit. By the ETNZ Prot two of the Challs have no say about that or anything else GD foists onto them, let alone any control over ‘real’ climate change. 

[aucklander 1]

1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

If every AC36 Finals race is sailed in under 12 knots TWS then it will be another boring blowout, ala Bermuda. Whoever gambled their design for that narrow a bottom-end TWS and got very f’ing lucky will win. 

Oh to understand the crazy mind of Stingray!  The changing narrative, repeated over and over, eventually becomes ones truth.  I'm sure you've been reading psychology text books, because this repetition does indeed work for the self.  ETNZ won the America's cup only because of a lucky wind range  

[Rskiff 108]

2 minutes ago, aucklander said:

Oh to understand the crazy mind of Stingray!  The changing narrative, repeated over and over, eventually becomes ones truth.  I'm sure you've been reading psychology text books, because this repetition does indeed work for the self.  ETNZ won the America's cup only because of a lucky wind range  

It's a Trump trick

[Sidecar 772]

2 hours ago, Lickindip said:

Can the boats have a code zero and a code 1 up at the same time?

Get foiling with both up, roll up the zero and complete the rest of the race???

I can see timed starts to get/stay foiling being the thing in low wind conditions... and as KoW says upthread, there is a big difference in lift, air or water, between  8 knots and 11 knots, it isn’t a 37.5% increase, it is the square of velocity, so 89.1% increase.

[phill_nz 638]

2 hours ago, aucklander said:

ETNZ won the America's cup only because of a lucky wind range  

well thats true

they were the lucky on all days with winds within the sailing range

[dachopper 20]

Kitefoil gold cup has been doing it for years...SailGP can do it......Last AC they did it....... so I say yes

[barfy 1,053]

Of course they will make it around dry in 12kt.

In 8, maybe not. In 10, I'd bet yes, but I wouldn't bet the farm.

[KoW 16]

The more I reflect on this the more I wonder if the complexity of the foil arm motion will be the factor that compromises 100% foiling?

How many teams managed 100% fly time in Bermuda and how often? From memory it was only ETNZ, BAR Oracle and Artemis - and only then in a handful of races(?)

The foils sweeping down through an arc into the water is a far more complex motion than lowering the boards like on the cats. Balancing the lift and other hydrodynamic forces through that motion seems to me to be orders of magnitude more challenging than what they were doing on the beach cats... especially coupled with the additional hull size, soft sails, etc.

I have no doubt all the teams will get their boats up and keep them up even in light conditions sailing in a  straight line, but I think tacking will feature splashdowns and touches much more often than the cats did, and over the duration of a race, (not in the millpond that was Bermuda), it's gonna take some very special sailing to keep it up through every maneuver.

 

[See Level 663]

Maybe, but the 50's also had to deal with canting the boards in/out, as well as fore/aft.

[Boybland 515]

1 hour ago, KoW said:

The more I reflect on this the more I wonder if the complexity of the foil arm motion will be the factor that compromises 100% foiling?

How many teams managed 100% fly time in Bermuda and how often? From memory it was only ETNZ, BAR Oracle and Artemis - and only then in a handful of races(?)

The foils sweeping down through an arc into the water is a far more complex motion than lowering the boards like on the cats. Balancing the lift and other hydrodynamic forces through that motion seems to me to be orders of magnitude more challenging than what they were doing on the beach cats... especially coupled with the additional hull size, soft sails, etc.

I have no doubt all the teams will get their boats up and keep them up even in light conditions sailing in a  straight line, but I think tacking will feature splashdowns and touches much more often than the cats did, and over the duration of a race, (not in the millpond that was Bermuda), it's gonna take some very special sailing to keep it up through every maneuver.

 

I'm not so sure about this, I think the AC75 system is actually easier to control during lowering.

One of the biggest issues with the cats looked to be that the entire windward foil section hit the water at the same time, if the angle of attack was even slightly wrong it was all over.  We sawe all kinds of interesting results, sudden wheelies, sudden plunges that kind of thing, even when racing was well advanced you still saw instances where the foil went in with the angle of attack all wrong.

The way the way the windward foil on the AC75 works it drops in much slower starting with just one end them working along the foil, with practice you can probably learn to know immediately when the one flap starts to submerge whether you have things right and you get a few fractions of a second to adjust before the rest of the foil submerges and it becomes a real issue, heck you might even be able to deliberately lower one end in, check and correct, then complete the drop, I don't know what control the system gives with this but it would seem a technical possibility.

[barfy 1,053]

3 hours ago, KoW said:

The more I reflect on this the more I wonder if the complexity of the foil arm motion will be the factor that compromises 100% foiling?

From the footage so far, only 4 or 5 drops from etnz, two from AM? I didn't notice any " bump" when the board went in, except drag and a bit of pitch change. Probably need to wait a bit for ....more footage please..!!!!

[Kiwing 279]

@uflux surely you can't be serious that there will be no races under 12 knots?

[Meat Wad 533]

On 10/8/2019 at 3:49 PM, Hawke said:

As I posted in the NZ thread what has to be solved is how to use the Code Zero and still foil.  The apparent wind, when foiling, quickly overwhelms the Code Zero which it seems you need to get off the water to foil in the first place in light wind conditions.

Of course it always comes back to VMG.  The question being how close to the wind can you sail, still foil and have a high speed with a Code Zero.  At the moment I'm not sure they'll ever need to use a Code Zero in race conditions.

What about the LRH, Large roach headsail? Modern materials cal allow a flatter sail with a roach and no battens????

Do headsails on foililng boats need to be non overlapping?

[jaysper 394]

Might not happen till the cup, but I do reckon it will happen Kiwing :-)