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New topic the state of 18 foot sailing. Watch every weekend and sadly the 18"s are so badly sailed. The Kiwi's will absolutely destroy them next month..............

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8 minutes ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Bugger it’s behind a paywall

 

If you google the story you still hit a paywall, but you can read the text behind the subscription invitation.

 

The crux of the story is the decline in the number of actual multi sport coaches at the AIS from 20 to almost zero, and the subsequent increase in the number of bureaucrats and “consultants,” along with the AIS paying $2 million a year for office space in acknowledged sporting locations - like in the heart of Melbourne CBD?

 

Apparently Ian “Fresh” Burns as Deputy Director of something Technical is rarely in Canberra as he commutes from San Fransisco to Sydney... and Peter Conde is actually a resident of Queensland, but has a Canberra rental paid out of his $426,000 salary. So the AIS travel budget is said to be substantial, as only 2 of the top 6 execs are Canberra based.

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Had a long and leisurely social lunch with a couple of the Mandarins today.....not happy with the reporting, but not surprised with it either...there's almost an acceptance that the lympix party is in "end of days" with the public...

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5 hours ago, Rum Monkey said:

At least they didn't mention Conde's home club.......

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Ironically as I was strolling around Florence today, thinking about Australian Sailing and RQYS I happened upon this sculpture of Niccolò Machiavelli...

820CE7AF-4306-414E-B3F7-36B92D317B2F.jpeg

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11 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

The prince

Not the prince but rather the author of the prince in more than one meaning of the word author

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Even more ironic I was cooling my heals in another museum, Reading one of Mrs Octopus’s post when I looked up and saw this...

7774424D-B241-4A1B-9593-7A2842DE5794.png

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7 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Even more ironic I was cooling my heals in another museum, Reading one of Mrs Octopus’s post when I looked up and saw this...

7774424D-B241-4A1B-9593-7A2842DE5794.png

David

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59 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Even more ironic I was cooling my heals in another museum, Reading one of Mrs Octopus’s post when I looked up and saw this...

7774424D-B241-4A1B-9593-7A2842DE5794.png

Wandering northwards as you ponder the future of sailing in the southern hemisphere...

...if you head south the commerce of the Pont Vecchio will surely draw some analogies to AS efforts to monetize an otherwise beautiful sport

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55 minutes ago, KC375 said:

David

Dave. Mind boggling. Old micko could knock out a mean statue. 

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1 minute ago, LB 15 said:

Dave. Mind boggling. Old micko could knock out a mean statue. 

He certainly could...and many girls studying art history or fine art (and a fair number of the boys)...studied that statue closely.

I was neither in art history nor fine art but I did study the girls in those courses and learned the benefits of being acquainted with their preferred topics/subjects.

Given Micko's personal interests, it's not surprising his statues of men exceed his statues of women - the later being in many cases simply men with breasts – although some argue the androgynous look stemmed from other constraints or fashions

 

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52 minutes ago, KC375 said:

He certainly could...and many girls studying art history or fine art (and a fair number of the boys)...studied that statue closely.

 

I was neither in art history nor fine art but I did study the girls in those courses and learned the benefits of being acquainted with their preferred topics/subjects.

 

Given Micko's personal interests, it's not surprising his statues of men exceed his statues of women - the later being in many cases simply men with breasts – although some argue the androgynous look stemmed from other constraints or fashions

 

 

I spent 3 years at art college in my youth where I mainly learnt how to play pinball, tune girls and roll joints but it did leave me with a fascination with Micko, Leo and Raff and to have actually stood in front of Dave today was a pretty moving experience. My Son has been studying architecture in Milan for the past year and my wife is an art buff so these last few days have been amazing. However I am suffering from antiquity overload and my younger son and I have fixed it by spending the last few hours in a bar drinking beer. Off to lake Garda in the morning and if I don’t ever see the inside of another church again I will die happy. Still Florence is an amazing place but fuck me dead the tourists are punishing.

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35 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

I spent 3 years at art college in my youth where I mainly learnt how to play pinball, tune girls and roll joints but it did leave me with a fascination with Micko, Leo and Raff and to have actually stood in front of Dave today was a pretty moving experience. My Son has been studying architecture in Milan for the past year and my wife is an art buff so these last few days have been amazing. However I am suffering from antiquity overload and my younger son and I have fixed it by spending the last few hours in a bar drinking beer. Off to lake Garda in the morning and if I don’t ever see the inside of another church again I will die happy. Still Florence is an amazing place but fuck me dead the tourists are punishing.

Ah yes, art overload.

With a science and operations background I used to approach museums and galleries by starting with the first work, looking at it, reading the accompanying text, re-examining the work, reflecting and seeking meaning, then moving on to the second piece...you can imagine how that would go down in the Uffizi...

My sweetheart taught me how to enjoy art. I learned, like a tasting menu, it should sampled not gorged. Now, when we visit Florence we find an agriturismo – ideally with a pool – close, but outside the walls. After breakfast we cab in, take in one sight (say maybe a single hall or room in the Uffizi), have a leisurely lunch – maybe by the Arno. We take a postprandial stroll and take in one more sight or go visit a vineyard. Then back to the farm, cocktails, a dip in the pool and dinner. The next morning ready to go again with no sense of excess or fatigue.

I used to think no one could top Joyce’s’ description of the eternity of hell: sand, a million miles high...and a million miles broad..every million years a little bird ... carried away in its beak a tiny grain of that sand... how many eons upon eons of ages before it had carried away all?

After visiting Italy I concluded a better image of eternity would be committing to individually experience each piece in the Uffizi or the Vatican museum

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4 minutes ago, Rum Monkey said:

which is?????lol

I think he's a member of the "Maroochy Yacht Club" too....

 

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18 minutes ago, Rum Monkey said:

which is?????lol

Wasn t he a yachtsman of the year there as well in the late 1970s

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15 hours ago, Rum Monkey said:

Fascinating read about the Australian Institute of Rorts. Sadly, heads are unlikely to roll, even after this damning revelation. Something about protected species, pretty much along the same lines as our self-preserving Pollies.

As my dear departed father used to say "Always back self interest - at least you know it's trying!"

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Pete was once VC of the Lota fishing, fighting and furniture flinging club. 

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4 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

Fascinating read about the Australian Institute of Rorts. Sadly, heads are unlikely to roll, even after this damning revelation. Something about protected species, pretty much along the same lines as our self-preserving Pollies.

As my dear departed father used to say "Always back self interest - at least you know it's trying!"

The people responsible will be either promoted or headhunted...

 

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6 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Pete was once VC of the Lota fishing, fighting and furniture flinging club. 

I’m surprised he wasn’t made a life member of the club years ago. I bet he will be on the short list now.

 

Pulpit

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And clearly in the you can’t make this shit up best ever category.

Back at the Lota fishing and Fighting Club could be another difficult decision for Committee coming up.

News at 11.

 

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6 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

The people responsible will be either promoted or headhunted...

 

Where do think Matt Carroll came from.

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Its always instructive to peruse the annual reports of such bodies: https://www.sportaus.gov.au/media-centre/publications

Australian Sports Commission:

2019/20

Funding: $390M (no, that's not a typo, that's $15 from every man, woman and child in the country, or approx $28 for every tax payer in Australia)

Staff: 491

Employee benefits: $60M

 

2018/19

$100M burnt on various grants: https://www.sportaus.gov.au/grants_and_funding/community_sport_infrastructure_grant_program/successful_grant_recipient_list#?state=&round=

Wages and Salaries: $43M

$2.4M on 'key management personnel' (23 people)

$8.2M to high performance sailing (AS's primary source of $$)

Other people in AIS (Like the COO on a paltry $98k) may wonder why their CEO is on $380k

 

 

 

 

 

 

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hows the female surfboard project coming along or did that finally lose funding?

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15 hours ago, Sailabout said:

hows the female surfboard project coming along or did that finally lose funding?

Got canned - too many bumps in the road

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Fuck Facebook is so intrusive......

Just opened it up and it showed me a list of 6 people I might know. Among people with several mutual friends, I found this...... 

 

 

 

1728307913_ScreenShot2020-02-19at09_50_03.png.5430da53796566f7815d792f9614afe2.png

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On 2/17/2020 at 8:19 PM, lydia said:

And clearly in the you can’t make this shit up best ever category.

Back at the Lota fishing and Fighting Club could be another difficult decision for Committee coming up.

News at 11.

 

Any updates?

 

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https://www.sailingresources.org.au/sailpass-home/

Australian Sailing Surveyed 246 Clubs re the "day Pass" 70% said they didnt have a daypass/intro to sailing membership facility at their club.

60% are not aware of the day pass concept

31% said Unsure how the program could benefit our club

Australian Sailing payed a company called SBP and they did an interview process of 7 "stake holders" and an online survey (n=41 responses) and 6 face-to-face and phone interviews with current and past users of the Day Pass.

Compelling stuff...

 

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17 minutes ago, snoopy said:

https://www.sailingresources.org.au/sailpass-home/

Australian Sailing Surveyed 246 Clubs re the "day Pass" 70% said they didnt have a daypass/intro to sailing membership facility at their club.

60% are not aware of the day pass concept

31% said Unsure how the program could benefit our club

Australian Sailing payed a company called SBP and they did an interview process of 7 "stake holders" and an online survey (n=41 responses) and 6 face-to-face and phone interviews with current and past users of the Day Pass.

Compelling stuff...

 

And of course, none of that is what sail pass is been used for but rather to charge members of other clubs to come to your club.

And to put a wall around your own membership so that only members of your club can sail the boats of your members.

Which is completely fucked for owners in Brisbane and Hobart where there are too many boats and not enough crew from a single club the staff the boats. 

So just piss on the owners heads some more!

Unless of course you plan to start throwing owners out of the sport for non compliance.

 

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4 minutes ago, lydia said:

Which is completely fucked for owners in Brisbane and Hobart where there are too many boats and not enough crew from a single club the staff the boats. 

Time to set up you boat for short handed racing.

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Ok...so here's a real life example of how it can go wrong....a mate of mine was invited onto a yacht at a major club in melbourne (SYC). The invitation was extended so this mate could assist the owner by helping in training some of his less experienced crew. Mate was a member of another club....on arrival at owners club, seeing signage that requested sailing visitors to visit the admin desk, he obliged....to be told that he needed to purchase a day pass for $25(?). Mate questioned why he needed to pay and was told it was for "insurance to cover you while sailing - required by AS". Mate announced that as an existing member he was already covered and asked again why he should pay....admin person went to get advice....came back and said..."I can't get any further clarification...." Mate said he'd be happy to pay if someone could honestly tell him what it was for......admin girl walks off....Mate goes to boat...later that day Mate gets a phone call from Commodore of club saying that as a result of "harassment" of admin person, he was now "banned" from the club. I was contacted (as a known associate of Mate) and asked about the "character of this person" and made it clear he was a very polite bloke just trying to help out a friend with some crew training. Commodore then contacts Mate to let him know that the ban had been lifted. Not surprisingly, Mate told them where they could stick their club!! Everyone deeply embarrassed by club's attitude and response - nobody was blaming the admin person who was trying to implement a program without sufficient understanding or training. Apparent arrogance of club was disturbing.....

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Isn’t funny how club management immediately bring an harassment allegation against a person who asked politely why something is as it is.

Good to see that is not just a Queensland disease

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33 minutes ago, lydia said:

Isn’t funny how club management immediately bring an harassment allegation against a person who asked politely why something is as it is.

Good to see that is not just a Queensland disease

If you question authority or authority's minions, then obviously you are engaging in harassment.

Consume what's set before you, pay what you're told you owe, be silent in the presence of your betters, die.

FKT

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1 hour ago, Couta said:

Ok...so here's a real life example of how it can go wrong....a mate of mine was invited onto a yacht at a major club in melbourne (SYC). The invitation was extended so this mate could assist the owner by helping in training some of his less experienced crew. Mate was a member of another club....on arrival at owners club, seeing signage that requested sailing visitors to visit the admin desk, he obliged....to be told that he needed to purchase a day pass for $25(?). Mate questioned why he needed to pay and was told it was for "insurance to cover you while sailing - required by AS". Mate announced that as an existing member he was already covered and asked again why he should pay....admin person went to get advice....came back and said..."I can't get any further clarification...." Mate said he'd be happy to pay if someone could honestly tell him what it was for......admin girl walks off....Mate goes to boat...later that day Mate gets a phone call from Commodore of club saying that as a result of "harassment" of admin person, he was now "banned" from the club. I was contacted (as a known associate of Mate) and asked about the "character of this person" and made it clear he was a very polite bloke just trying to help out a friend with some crew training. Commodore then contacts Mate to let him know that the ban had been lifted. Not surprisingly, Mate told them where they could stick their club!! Everyone deeply embarrassed by club's attitude and response - nobody was blaming the admin person who was trying to implement a program without sufficient understanding or training. Apparent arrogance of club was disturbing.....

Couta, I'd like to "like" your post, but there's nothing in the content to like (other than good on your mate for telling them to get stuffed).

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4 hours ago, Couta said:

Ok...so here's a real life example of how it can go wrong....a mate of mine was invited onto a yacht at a major club in melbourne (SYC). The invitation was extended so this mate could assist the owner by helping in training some of his less experienced crew. Mate was a member of another club....on arrival at owners club, seeing signage that requested sailing visitors to visit the admin desk, he obliged....to be told that he needed to purchase a day pass for $25(?). Mate questioned why he needed to pay and was told it was for "insurance to cover you while sailing - required by AS". Mate announced that as an existing member he was already covered and asked again why he should pay....admin person went to get advice....came back and said..."I can't get any further clarification...." Mate said he'd be happy to pay if someone could honestly tell him what it was for......admin girl walks off....Mate goes to boat...later that day Mate gets a phone call from Commodore of club saying that as a result of "harassment" of admin person, he was now "banned" from the club. I was contacted (as a known associate of Mate) and asked about the "character of this person" and made it clear he was a very polite bloke just trying to help out a friend with some crew training. Commodore then contacts Mate to let him know that the ban had been lifted. Not surprisingly, Mate told them where they could stick their club!! Everyone deeply embarrassed by club's attitude and response - nobody was blaming the admin person who was trying to implement a program without sufficient understanding or training. Apparent arrogance of club was disturbing.....

It strikes me that constitutes misleading and deceptive conduct under both federal and Victorian laws and as such is illegal.

At the very least, SYC would have to refund the money of everyone told that mistruth. I understand penalties also apply. One might think the penalties would (or should) be enlarged if they have taken vindictive action against someone pointing out their error.

From this point on, there should be no doubt they are aware of the issue. The conduct becomes deceptive if they repeat it. Even merely inferring a position can be misleading or deceptive..

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So if you just crew as a non boat owner, its cheaper each year to just pay the day pass and not join a club as a full member! Weird way to get memberships!

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12 minutes ago, Turkey Slapper said:

So if you just crew as a non boat owner, its cheaper each year to just pay the day pass and not join a club as a full member! Weird way to get memberships!

Correct!

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You know this system is just not right when I pointed it out to a senior flag officer of the club that I (as a regular crew member on his boat at major events) had not registered with the required day pass system....and he ignored it. Or that I was a crew member of a boat designated as part of the Association Cup on behalf of SYC (I'd previously sailed on several winning teams representing RVYC) and was awarded an SYC uniform for the event....

It's kinda peculiar that club membership becomes a non-issue when the Assoc Cup is at stake.....anyone care to check on RVYC's winning history will see that "Wake" was a regular contributor...and that apart from the owner (who didn't sail on the boat) and one crew member, the rest of us were from other clubs...

Anyway, the point is that this Day Pass system was designed to catch "millennials" who were doing the short term sailing "experience", but has had unintended consequences.....AS has been slow to respond and sloppy in the execution with the result that it's just pissed off the constituency......nice one!!

 

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16 minutes ago, Couta said:

You know this system is just not right when I pointed it out to a senior flag officer of the club that I (as a regular crew member on his boat at major events) had not registered with the required day pass system....and he ignored it. Or that I was a crew member of a boat designated as part of the Association Cup on behalf of SYC (I'd previously sailed on several winning teams representing RVYC) and was awarded an SYC uniform for the event....

It's kinda peculiar that club membership becomes a non-issue when the Assoc Cup is at stake.....anyone care to check on RVYC's winning history will see that "Wake" was a regular contributor...and that apart from the owner (who didn't sail on the boat) and one crew member, the rest of us were from other clubs...

Anyway, the point is that this Day Pass system was designed to catch "millennials" who were doing the short term sailing "experience", but has had unintended consequences.....AS has been slow to respond and sloppy in the execution with the result that it's just pissed off the constituency......nice one!!

 

Since when did the RYVC (Royal Victoria Yacht Club - Canada) sail in the Association cup?

Royal Yacht Club of Victoria (RYCV) used to race it until SYC decided to use bogus safety issues to exclude RYCV and other clubs Adams 10's.   

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It would be interesting to know how many potential crew the day pass system has driven away and in turn how many boats have stopped racing or even been sold due to crew shortages caused by the day passes.

Not everyone can afford to pay for regular day passes and club memberships and it would suck if some people have to say no to crewing on their mates boats.

I had 4 regular day pass crew and once they had done their 10 races and encouragement to join began, 3 joined and the most experienced crew vanished. 

 

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^^^^"Since when did the RYVC (Royal Victoria Yacht Club - Canada) sail in the Association cup?"

If ya gunna get pedantic DK...ya might wanna check ya spelling ya'self or ya might look like a DiK! ;-)

 

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13 hours ago, Couta said:

Ok...so here's a real life example of how it can go wrong....a mate of mine was invited onto a yacht at a major club in melbourne (SYC). The invitation was extended so this mate could assist the owner by helping in training some of his less experienced crew. Mate was a member of another club....on arrival at owners club, seeing signage that requested sailing visitors to visit the admin desk, he obliged....to be told that he needed to purchase a day pass for $25(?). Mate questioned why he needed to pay and was told it was for "insurance to cover you while sailing - required by AS". Mate announced that as an existing member he was already covered and asked again why he should pay....admin person went to get advice....came back and said..."I can't get any further clarification...." Mate said he'd be happy to pay if someone could honestly tell him what it was for......admin girl walks off....Mate goes to boat...later that day Mate gets a phone call from Commodore of club saying that as a result of "harassment" of admin person, he was now "banned" from the club. I was contacted (as a known associate of Mate) and asked about the "character of this person" and made it clear he was a very polite bloke just trying to help out a friend with some crew training. Commodore then contacts Mate to let him know that the ban had been lifted. Not surprisingly, Mate told them where they could stick their club!! Everyone deeply embarrassed by club's attitude and response - nobody was blaming the admin person who was trying to implement a program without sufficient understanding or training. Apparent arrogance of club was disturbing.....

Everyone should be embarrassed. That’s horrible attitude/misinformation on the part of the club. And the Commodore’s ‘Shoot first and ask questions later’ approach is just pathetic.

This “SAILPass” nonsense will eventually kill racing.

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14 hours ago, snoopy said:

https://www.sailingresources.org.au/sailpass-home/

Australian Sailing Surveyed 246 Clubs re the "day Pass" 70% said they didnt have a daypass/intro to sailing membership facility at their club.

60% are not aware of the day pass concept

31% said Unsure how the program could benefit our club

Australian Sailing payed a company called SBP and they did an interview process of 7 "stake holders" and an online survey (n=41 responses) and 6 face-to-face and phone interviews with current and past users of the Day Pass.

Compelling stuff...

 

From the SBP exec sum:

"key activities for Australian Sailing to implement. At a high-level, these include:
•Develop a comprehensive ‘how-to’ kit for clubs to use
•Create marketing collateral for promotion of the Day Pass both within and outside of Club networks
•Leverage initial successes to create a suite of club case studies that can be used to promote the program
•Set up an internal process for tracking conversion rates, to enable evidence-based promotion
•Introduce a series of necessary improvements to the online platform
•Streamline the online registration process"

In a membership organization if you have to push something that hard...it's NOT answering a need the membership has...

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On 2/11/2020 at 7:48 PM, albanyguy said:

The club, or more to the point, the Flag Officers and Race Committee, do have a duty of care to the competitors, such as not starting a race when there is a gale warning current...  If something happens and a crew member gets injured, or god forbid drowns or dies, then the Club has a liability.

Those are bold assertions. Please provide the citation to at least one Australian appellate court decision that backs them up.

Are you familiar with RRS Rule 4?

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2 hours ago, Svanen said:

Those are bold assertions. Please provide the citation to at least one Australian appellate court decision that backs them up.

Are you familiar with RRS Rule 4?

You might also want to have a look at Limitation of Liability legislation which each state has enacted.

As usual AS has been slow to come to grips with this.

In Very general terms , no right to commence an actions is respect to an injury incurred in a “dangerous recreational activity”.

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3 hours ago, Svanen said:

Those are bold assertions. Please provide the citation to at least one Australian appellate court decision that backs them up.

Are you familiar with RRS Rule 4?

Australians are not mature or responsible enough to make such a decision by ourselves, so our nanny state legislates to ensure that we don't need to take responsibility for such decisions.

We have laws that mandate wearing life jackets in certain locations, when sol and in a dinghy. We must wear helmets on bicycles, cant use fireworks and are forbidden from even changing the plug on an electric appliance. It goes on and on......  

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Also the national legislative scheme has introduced the concept of the “primary safety obligation” 

Very unlikely that a club would be successfully be sued now

besides  practically the plaintiff lawyers will chase the best insurance policy first

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And before anyone asks , showjumping in an enclosed arena was a dangerous recreational activity but walking the horse up the tunnel from the yard to the arena did not involve a dangerous recreational activity

also different where fee  is paid so where a sail pass is sold and say a punter put on a boat for a sail then this is going to be controversial 

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16 minutes ago, lydia said:

also different where fee  is paid so where a sail pass is sold and say a punter put on a boat for a sail then this is going to be controversial 

Good point there.....

AS will say that the day pass is a "membership" but if someone comes in from the street with zero sailing experience and pays to sail, perhaps a good lawyer could argue that they were a paying passenger and the vessel they sailed on was not in survey as a commercial vessel................. 

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1 hour ago, The Dark Knight said:

Good point there.....

AS will say that the day pass is a "membership" but if someone comes in from the street with zero sailing experience and pays to sail, perhaps a good lawyer could argue that they were a paying passenger and the vessel they sailed on was not in survey as a commercial vessel................. 

Would not even take a very good lawyer

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6 hours ago, Svanen said:

Those are bold assertions. Please provide the citation to at least one Australian appellate court decision that backs them up.

Are you familiar with RRS Rule 4?

Not sure with anywhere else, but in Sydney, our Aquatic licence is the thing that stops us racing when there is a Gale or Storm warning, not any liability concerns regarding crew.

If a serious incident were to take place, our Aquatic Licence could be  cancelled, therefore no ability to organise racing.

Duty of care whilst important is not the overriding issue.

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Just posted on FB by AS

https://www.sailingresources.org.au/news/appeal-resources/

 

Resources for submitting an appeal

PUBLISHED MON 10 FEB 2020

Documents have been recently added to the Appeals section of our website. 

These three documents will give insight and some advice on if you are appealing the decision of a protest committee.

There are guidelines for:
•    A boat submitting an appeal following a protest or redress hearing
•    A protest committee requesting confirmation or correction
•    An affiliated club or class to request an interpretation of the Rules

They can all be found here:
https://www.sailingresources.org.au/class-assoc/racing-rules/
 

 

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21 hours ago, Couta said:

Ok...so here's a real life example of how it can go wrong....a mate of mine was invited onto a yacht at a major club in melbourne (SYC). The invitation was extended so this mate could assist the owner by helping in training some of his less experienced crew. Mate was a member of another club....on arrival at owners club, seeing signage that requested sailing visitors to visit the admin desk, he obliged....to be told that he needed to purchase a day pass for $25(?). Mate questioned why he needed to pay and was told it was for "insurance to cover you while sailing - required by AS". Mate announced that as an existing member he was already covered and asked again why he should pay....admin person went to get advice....came back and said..."I can't get any further clarification...." Mate said he'd be happy to pay if someone could honestly tell him what it was for......admin girl walks off....Mate goes to boat...later that day Mate gets a phone call from Commodore of club saying that as a result of "harassment" of admin person, he was now "banned" from the club. I was contacted (as a known associate of Mate) and asked about the "character of this person" and made it clear he was a very polite bloke just trying to help out a friend with some crew training. Commodore then contacts Mate to let him know that the ban had been lifted. Not surprisingly, Mate told them where they could stick their club!! Everyone deeply embarrassed by club's attitude and response - nobody was blaming the admin person who was trying to implement a program without sufficient understanding or training. Apparent arrogance of club was disturbing.....

Thats a sign of a club with its head up its arse

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49 minutes ago, Bill E Goat said:

Thats a sign of a club with its head up its arse

In some ways it surprises me.  While SYC has always had it's fair share of entitled self-important pricks, my dealings with the club and it's employees (a couple of years ago now) have always been very cordial.  Couta's tale makes it seem like something has changed ...

But to me it underlines that fact that day passes are a club matter, and that AS should not get involved.  Indeed, I doubt they have jurisdiction to do so.

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13 minutes ago, Recidivist said:

In some ways it surprises me.  While SYC has always had it's fair share of entitled self-important pricks, my dealings with the club and it's employees (a couple of years ago now) have always been very cordial.  Couta's tale makes it seem like something has changed ...

But to me it underlines that fact that day passes are a club matter, and that AS should not get involved.  Indeed, I doubt they have jurisdiction to do so.

What's changed is day passes. Now every crew member must be signed on, using an app, before the race. And those crew if not members must have day passes. Boats non-compliance = 5 points added to your score. Repeated infractions subject to protest by RC

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1 minute ago, Dark Cloud said:

What's changed is day passes. Now every crew member must be signed on, using an app, before the race. And those crew if not members must have day passes. Boats non-compliance = 5 points added to your score. Repeated infractions subject to protest by RC

This was passed by the members?  Or imposed by the Management Committee?  What happened to the old tradition of inviting visiting sailors to hop aboard for a twilight?

As I say, it's a club issue.  If a club, with the concurrence of its members, implements such a system, it's up to the members to decide whether they accept the regime or perhaps move to a different club which may not have the same regime.  For AS to purportedly impose the regime on ALL clubs through a prescription is, in my view, meddling where they should not, and very likely invalid for want of jurisdiction.

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1 hour ago, The Dark Knight said:

Just posted on FB by AS

https://www.sailingresources.org.au/news/appeal-resources/

 

Resources for submitting an appeal

PUBLISHED MON 10 FEB 2020

Documents have been recently added to the Appeals section of our website. 

These three documents will give insight and some advice on if you are appealing the decision of a protest committee.

There are guidelines for:
•    A boat submitting an appeal following a protest or redress hearing
•    A protest committee requesting confirmation or correction
•    An affiliated club or class to request an interpretation of the Rules

They can all be found here:
https://www.sailingresources.org.au/class-assoc/racing-rules/
 

 

The Shaggy Baxter amendments then!

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16 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

What's changed is day passes. Now every crew member must be signed on, using an app, before the race. And those crew if not members must have day passes. Boats non-compliance = 5 points added to your score. Repeated infractions subject to protest by RC

Not sure I have raced a keel boat race in the last 25 years where everyone on my boat has been a member of the same club!

Usually, most have been members of 2 different clubs which are about 100 metres apart.

This makes a lot of sense.

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40 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

What's changed is day passes. Now every crew member must be signed on, using an app, before the race. And those crew if not members must have day passes. Boats non-compliance = 5 points added to your score. Repeated infractions subject to protest by RC

How is this a change? I started sailing out of SYC 10 years ago and needed to have a day pass back then as well? At least a couple of times a year there would be people checking everyone heading out to race (or into the bar).

I have not checked recently, but the intent at SYC was to push people to become members. Thus the day pass system was set up such that any money paid in day passes came off your membership joining fee. The total number of day passes you could have, exactly matched the cost of the joining fee. So I (like most) paid for day passes until it cost nothing to join. If you only visit occasionally, then I guess it is a bit painful, but $15 to use the showers and bar isn't that bad. I think it's only saturday sailing where you have to pay though, I thought that sailpass was free during the week? I guess there is an assumption that Sat sailing is mostly folk who are a bit more serious.

Not saying it was the case in Couta's story, but I guess I could see that some sailing dude comes in and asks "Why the fuck do I need to pay to sail here when I'm a member up the road, and have just come here out of the goodness of my heart to teach your useless cunts how to sail". From his POV it's an innocent question. From some new admin girls POV it's a bit intimidating. So chinese whispers to the commodore, who then is standing up for his staff with a visiting rock star sailor - until everyonre realises that there is nothing in it and calms down. Or perhaps they are just wankers. (or a bit from column A and a bit from column B).

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21 minutes ago, Se7en said:

How is this a change? I started sailing out of SYC 10 years ago and needed to have a day pass back then as well? At least a couple of times a year there would be people checking everyone heading out to race (or into the bar).

I have not checked recently, but the intent at SYC was to push people to become members. Thus the day pass system was set up such that any money paid in day passes came off your membership joining fee. The total number of day passes you could have, exactly matched the cost of the joining fee. So I (like most) paid for day passes until it cost nothing to join. If you only visit occasionally, then I guess it is a bit painful, but $15 to use the showers and bar isn't that bad. I think it's only saturday sailing where you have to pay though, I thought that sailpass was free during the week? I guess there is an assumption that Sat sailing is mostly folk who are a bit more serious.

Not saying it was the case in Couta's story, but I guess I could see that some sailing dude comes in and asks "Why the fuck do I need to pay to sail here when I'm a member up the road, and have just come here out of the goodness of my heart to teach your useless cunts how to sail". From his POV it's an innocent question. From some new admin girls POV it's a bit intimidating. So chinese whispers to the commodore, who then is standing up for his staff with a visiting rock star sailor - until everyonre realises that there is nothing in it and calms down. Or perhaps they are just wankers. (or a bit from column A and a bit from column B).

It hasn't been 10 years. It applies to all races, but twilights are free, though you still need the day pass. What you pay in passes doesn't come off your membership fee, rather the nomination fee.

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What happens if you dont have a touch screen phone on your boat before a race? how do you log the crew in? Do you get pinged if you dont have a phone? 

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I'm absolutely sure that the Day Sail Pass has been introduced to the club members as an initiative to drive membership and amortise club costs...and on face value it probably makes sense. But it has unintended consequences when applied!! The result is that people like me openly ignore it and the club member owner runs a risk of a visit from a flag officer...and to mitigate that risk, I don't hang around the club after the sail (so bar takings are down!!) and everyone is left feeling a little uncomfortable....when all we wanted to do was go for a sail with mates...(and yeah, we do still have a few beers as a crew... just not up at the club bar....so much for the "shared experience!")

The whole exercise needs a rethink around the reality of a club...and the different ways we engage with it, as members, as guests and visitor members from other clubs.....

There's always been an issue with people sailing but not joining and that has always been best managed with a quiet word at an appropriate time...people know what the right thing is and generally do it. When the heavy (dead) hand of AS gets involved and throws in half thought thru solutions based on technology (not people skills!) the result is....what it is! SAD.

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1 hour ago, Dark Cloud said:

It hasn't been 10 years.  What you pay in passes doesn't come off your membership fee, rather the nomination fee.

Hmmm - I've been a member since 2011, and paid for day passes before becoming a member. Can we say it's close enough to 10 years to not be worth quibbling over?

You are correct about the nomination fee. I worded it poorly.

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12 hours ago, Svanen said:

Those are bold assertions. Please provide the citation to at least one Australian appellate court decision that backs them up.

Are you familiar with RRS Rule 4?

Yes that it is the responsibility of the boat to participate in a race or continue to race is hers alone.

Doesn't mean jackshit in a court of law if it can be proved that the Flag Officers were negligent in starting the race to begin with and probably not abandoning a race in the event of an extreme weather event during the race.  And I'm talking Inshore/Round the Cans/Small Keelboat/Dinghy racing here not Offshore Racing. 

Re providing a citation - I'm not a lawyer and don't really have the time nor inclination to go look for one.  All I know is that if I'm a Flag Officer/Director/RO then I'm going to err on the side of caution. Thankfully I'm neither atm so don't need to concern myself about it.

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3 hours ago, Se7en said:

but $15 to use the showers and bar isn't that bad. 

Who has a shower at the club when you sail keel boats?

 

Since when does paying to use a bar makes sense????? Or are drinks at you club free for members and day pass holders?

The last time I paid to go into a bar, the waitresses were topless and over dressed compared to the entertainers.

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2 hours ago, Couta said:

I'm absolutely sure that the Day Sail Pass has been introduced to the club members as an initiative to drive membership and amortise club costs...and on face value it probably makes sense. But it has unintended consequences when applied!! The result is that people like me openly ignore it and the club member owner runs a risk of a visit from a flag officer...and to mitigate that risk, I don't hang around the club after the sail (so bar takings are down!!) and everyone is left feeling a little uncomfortable....when all we wanted to do was go for a sail with mates...(and yeah, we do still have a few beers as a crew... just not up at the club bar....so much for the "shared experience!")

The whole exercise needs a rethink around the reality of a club...and the different ways we engage with it, as members, as guests and visitor members from other clubs.....

There's always been an issue with people sailing but not joining and that has always been best managed with a quiet word at an appropriate time...people know what the right thing is and generally do it. When the heavy (dead) hand of AS gets involved and throws in half thought thru solutions based on technology (not people skills!) the result is....what it is! SAD.

I recently asked at a GM whether the day pass system was much of a financial windfall for the club and the answer I got was a big no. 

Don't know whether it is beneficial to the club in terms of new members.

Regardless of whether it's good for the clubs or not, it should be up to each club to decide whether to have day passes and so on. Not some pack of morons in Sydney.

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Keep up the good work, guys. The more you post, the more I'm convinced Groucho was correct.

As for Australian Sailing perhaps everyone could write to their local Federal MP telling him/her what a bunch of wankers they are and how they're not actually representing the sport. Not that it'd make much if any difference given how sports money is allocated, but there's nothing to lose. Even that infamous Qld club would have a hard time taking action against a member for writing to their MP.

Well, probably. This really is a grand & ongoing soap opera though.

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No, there is special provisions in the social media policy that would catch that.

And interfering with the financial viability of the club

Up to the the general committee for you young man.

See what they do about the latest plea to an assault.

all reports there is another.

Of course hidden in the club policy documents is the requirement that you have to pay their legal costs of them taking you the the general committee.

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The other side of this weird coin is they say the sail pass is so the club can know who is sailing, and on which boat.

This may now be the case with visiting members, but the club I sail from has no crew list for racing boats. I crew on a few different boats and not every weekend, so on any given Saturday the club has no idea if I'm sailing or on which boat.

Once sailpass is implemented, will they then move onto having all club member crew sign on for every race?

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35 minutes ago, Jethrow said:

The other side of this weird coin is they say the sail pass is so the club can know who is sailing, and on which boat.

This may now be the case with visiting members, but the club I sail from has no crew list for racing boats. I crew on a few different boats and not every weekend, so on any given Saturday the club has no idea if I'm sailing or on which boat.

Once sailpass is implemented, will they then move onto having all club member crew sign on for every race?

My club polices the crew lists without AS's help..

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1 hour ago, lydia said:

No, there is special provisions in the social media policy that would catch that.

And interfering with the financial viability of the club

Up to the the general committee for you young man.

See what they do about the latest plea to an assault.

all reports there is another.

Of course hidden in the club policy documents is the requirement that you have to pay their legal costs of them taking you the the general committee.

If that's a reply to me - I can't tell sine you don't include a quote - I'd *really, really* like to see any club try to take formal action against a member for making a factual and polite albeit pointed complaint about club policy, especially under any sort of social media policy. I suspect they'd be on the receiving end of a 'please explain' in short order for interfering with the communications between a constituent and his political representative.

Oh - wait. Tasmania. They're probably members of the club and get special treatment from the club committees. Forget that I raised this as a possibility....

Perhaps I should start the Fah Kiew Sailing and Internet Fishing (trolling our specialty) Society.

FKT

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

As for Australian Sailing perhaps everyone could write to their local Federal MP telling him/her what a bunch of wankers they are and how they're not actually representing the sport.

Is that why Glen Stanaway was running in the last Hobart council elections? He was trying to get out in front of this idea?

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2 minutes ago, Jason AUS said:

Is that why Glen Stanaway was running in the last Hobart council elections? He was trying to get out in front of this idea?

NFI - I'm not in that electorate. But now you mention it I must bring that fact to the attention of the people I know who are.

Further than that I will not say.....

FKT

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3 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

I recently asked at a GM whether the day pass system was much of a financial windfall for the club and the answer I got was a big no. 

Don't know whether it is beneficial to the club in terms of new members.

Regardless of whether it's good for the clubs or not, it should be up to each club to decide whether to have day passes and so on. Not some pack of morons in Sydney.

And that's supported by those boat crews that ...because of the deliberate concerns around the day pass rules...choose not to go to the clubhouse bar....so, less broadbased socialising and less bar takings...so less revenue and less camaraderie in the clubhouse.....hmmm

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3 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

Who has a shower at the club when you sail keel boats?

Guys younger than you who plan to be attractive to the other sex after racing?

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On 2/19/2020 at 2:35 PM, Couta said:

Ok...so here's a real life example of how it can go wrong....a mate of mine was invited onto a yacht at a major club in melbourne (SYC). The invitation was extended so this mate could assist the owner by helping in training some of his less experienced crew. Mate was a member of another club....on arrival at owners club, seeing signage that requested sailing visitors to visit the admin desk, he obliged....to be told that he needed to purchase a day pass for $25(?). Mate questioned why he needed to pay and was told it was for "insurance to cover you while sailing - required by AS". Mate announced that as an existing member he was already covered and asked again why he should pay....admin person went to get advice....came back and said..."I can't get any further clarification...." Mate said he'd be happy to pay if someone could honestly tell him what it was for......admin girl walks off....Mate goes to boat...later that day Mate gets a phone call from Commodore of club saying that as a result of "harassment" of admin person, he was now "banned" from the club. I was contacted (as a known associate of Mate) and asked about the "character of this person" and made it clear he was a very polite bloke just trying to help out a friend with some crew training. Commodore then contacts Mate to let him know that the ban had been lifted. Not surprisingly, Mate told them where they could stick their club!! Everyone deeply embarrassed by club's attitude and response - nobody was blaming the admin person who was trying to implement a program without sufficient understanding or training. Apparent arrogance of club was disturbing.....

This is why the TP at SYC was sold. Difficult to get experienced crew when the club enforced it's sail pass policy. Crew would fly in or travel long distance's at their own expense & being members of other clubs to be confronted with you must pay to go sailing today. With its youth programme it was about mentoring and introducing dinghy sailors to big boat racing. Guess what SYC you fucked a great programme and a terrific owner over whilst you used that boat as a promotion to it being the best/most visible boat in the bay.                       SYC is a business not a Yacht club.

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10 minutes ago, waco said:

This is why the TP at SYC was sold. Difficult to get experienced crew when the club enforced it's sail pass policy. 

Really?

Back in the Div 0 days there were eight? 50 footers sailing out of SYC, mostly crewed by members. I think you'll find that most of those boats were sold out from under the crew rather than vice versa. Not that I blame the owners, that was an expensive arms race to be playing in.

But yes, SYC is a business, where the 'owners' make no money.

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20 minutes ago, Se7en said:

Really?

Back in the Div 0 days there were eight? 50 footers sailing out of SYC, mostly crewed by members. I think you'll find that most of those boats were sold out from under the crew rather than vice versa. Not that I blame the owners, that was an expensive arms race to be playing in.

But yes, SYC is a business, where the 'owners' make no money.

Where the 'owners' make no money. Really who would of thought!  2011 Well Done. Try 1986. Might have a few more tales to tell & spent a few  more dollars at the club than yourself. Crewed on several of those 50 tee footers . Thank you for your reply.

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1 hour ago, Jason AUS said:

Is that why Glen Stanaway was running in the last Hobart council elections? He was trying to get out in front of this idea?

Mr Stanaway got 97 of the 21 013 votes cast or 0.46 percent of the vote

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