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42 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

I notice when i race in Italy all crew members have to show they are members of their national association and or your club is an affiliated member of your national body.

But do you have to be a member of a club affiliated with the Italian national association?  Because that's the equivalent of what the AS prescription requires.

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9 hours ago, lydia said:

The Lota fishing and fighting club has the Myora Cup powerboat event on 1 March and the Myora Cup sailing event a few weeks later.

In the past they have required that crew on sailboats be members but silence as to the powerboat crews.

This has always been a contentious issue.

So will see if it as AS says , a club issue or a sailing issue

Interesting! So if its an insurance issue as its made out to be, any event will be under the same day pass thingy! Whether it be sailing, motorboating, cruising group, fishing group or car events, any club event! 

You conspiracy theorists are going way to far, its not a money grab! 

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On 2/12/2020 at 11:03 PM, Couta said:

Glen...

...can you tell me what my benefit is for the thousands of dollars my club collects from members on the AS behalf....

What do we get for the money demanded?

This is articulated on the website in a document that can be read at https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/site/ukvfazmp3cz0cyup.pdf 
You are of course welcome to trawl https://www.sailingresources.org.au/home/ to see outputs of our efforts.

We seek clubs' feedback annually on how we go about our role, the results can be seen at https://www.sailing.org.au/about/club-satisfaction-survey/

The word 'demanded' is possibly a tad unkind. The clubs contribute to the organisation and the role we play by paying affiliation fees either directly, or through their state associations. Please note in the first document the statement "100% of High Performance funding is received from Government grants, sponsors and Patrons. No Club or member fees are used to fund High Performance programs."

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See the problem is none of that is worth the close to $300 a year I pay

which was  couta’s question

and  it is demanded otherwise I would not gave to pay up four times 

it is a value for money issue

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2 hours ago, Turkey Slapper said:

Interesting! So if its an insurance issue as its made out to be, any event will be under the same day pass thingy! Whether it be sailing, motorboating, cruising group, fishing group or car events, any club event! 

You conspiracy theorists are going way to far, its not a money grab! 

TS I don’t see the AS insurance meeting a call for a punch up at the Myora Cup powerboat event

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1 hour ago, grs said:

This is articulated on the website in a document that can be read at https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/site/ukvfazmp3cz0cyup.pdf 
You are of course welcome to trawl https://www.sailingresources.org.au/home/ to see outputs of our efforts.

We seek clubs' feedback annually on how we go about our role, the results can be seen at https://www.sailing.org.au/about/club-satisfaction-survey/

The word 'demanded' is possibly a tad unkind. The clubs contribute to the organisation and the role we play by paying affiliation fees either directly, or through their state associations. Please note in the first document the statement "100% of High Performance funding is received from Government grants, sponsors and Patrons. No Club or member fees are used to fund High Performance programs."

And is there a link anywhere to 3 years worth of financials (preferably audited)? Just a P&L and a balance sheet would do nicely, thanks.

 

It’s also interesting to note that the key club contacts between 2018 and 2019 became less satisfied and less engaged with Australian Sailing. So assuming those key contacts are board members, flag officers and key office staff... how do you think the ordinary club members feel about Australian Sailing?

 

And if the largest revenue stream comes from “affiliation,” which presumably means clubs and your largest expense is staff - and those clubs are less engaged... what time do the executions take place?

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9 hours ago, Recidivist said:

But do you have to be a member of a club affiliated with the Italian national association?  Because that's the equivalent of what the AS prescription requires.

no you dont so the aussie thing is BS, I would bring my baseball bat for assistance in the argument and see how the youtube of the police arriving over a AS card plays out at a club that gets a government subsidy on rates to operate......

Must be an angle in there as well on restraint of trade?

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29 minutes ago, Jason AUS said:

And is there a link anywhere to 3 years worth of financials (preferably audited)? Just a P&L and a balance sheet would do nicely, thanks.

Jason, the annual report is publicly available. Our website will give you ten year's worth.

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On 2/20/2020 at 8:49 AM, lydia said:

No, there is special provisions in the social media policy that would catch that.

And interfering with the financial viability of the club

Up to the the general committee for you young man.

See what they do about the latest plea to an assault.

all reports there is another.

Of course hidden in the club policy documents is the requirement that you have to pay their legal costs of them taking you the the general committee.

Even better the then Commadore told me which Lawyers I could or could not bring to represent me. And yes he did this in writing. Obviously under the policy they want you to use the most expensive one. Funnily enough it was the members money that they used to pay the $100k + in lawyers fees they spent throwing my lawyer out of their club.

you really can’t make this shit up. 

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25 minutes ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Do tell

Is there a time limit on these claims?  I broke a fingernail during the ‘thriller at Deanbilla’ in 1982. 

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13 hours ago, grs said:

This is articulated on the website in a document that can be read at https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/site/ukvfazmp3cz0cyup.pdf 
You are of course welcome to trawl https://www.sailingresources.org.au/home/ to see outputs of our efforts.

We seek clubs' feedback annually on how we go about our role, the results can be seen at https://www.sailing.org.au/about/club-satisfaction-survey/

The word 'demanded' is possibly a tad unkind. The clubs contribute to the organisation and the role we play by paying affiliation fees either directly, or through their state associations. Please note in the first document the statement "100% of High Performance funding is received from Government grants, sponsors and Patrons. No Club or member fees are used to fund High Performance programs."

GRS - an assessment of the deliverables confirms my concerns - highlighted in the comment:  "Club fees are not tied directly to services that a club may receive but instead relate to the needs of the whole sailing community as a collective." And while the affiliation fees don't go to the High Performance program, they do go to the staff and infrastructure that those programs rely on.

Bottom line is that beyond the dubious value of the insurance (I have personal history with this) and the maintenance of rules (and this costs ...what?) we're left with little....and to claim all the coaching programs (largely paid for by clubs and/or professionals) , or "come & try sailing" days or measurement certification are subsidised is interesting....and no self respecting club uses the website templates....my point is....

None of these resources couldn't be supplied (better) by a consolidated central global authority....Sailing International.....at a fraction of the cost to sailors.

Of course this would not serve the HP program well......which suggests that this is really the issue. 

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1 hour ago, Couta said:

Of course this would not serve the HP program well......which suggests that this is really the issue. 

Perhaps there's a simpler answer? 

what is the ratio of program to administrative expenditure?

Any national scale organization which receives government funding will need a minimum administrative, and financial staff to meet bookkeeping requirements, if they have regional (state?) representation and facilities, that's additional costs for travel and possibly rent/utilities etc. 

If AS also maintains the PRO, NJ, NU listings, certifications etc there's a bit of costs for those as well. 

It would be interesting to see a baseline for AS vs US SAILING, and other national organizations. here's the USSAILING https://www.ussailing.org/about/our-organization/

 

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1 hour ago, LionessRacing said:

Perhaps there's a simpler answer? 

what is the ratio of program to administrative expenditure?

Any national scale organization which receives government funding will need a minimum administrative, and financial staff to meet bookkeeping requirements, if they have regional (state?) representation and facilities, that's additional costs for travel and possibly rent/utilities etc. 

If AS also maintains the PRO, NJ, NU listings, certifications etc there's a bit of costs for those as well. 

It would be interesting to see a baseline for AS vs US SAILING, and other national organizations. here's the USSAILING https://www.ussailing.org/about/our-organization/

 

LR, as they say themselves....."Club fees are not tied directly to services that a club may receive but instead relate to the needs of the whole sailing community as a collective." and given that relatively few engage in racing, let alone one requiring PRO & NJ's...there's very little benefit for the vast majority of our "sailing community"...the ones that are clearly subsidising the minority....

 

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Interesting that AS are about to move into the former submarine base at Neutral Bay, just around the corner from RSYS as a few years back AS rented the top floor of one of the RSYS buildings - but that was when the staff was Tony Mooney and two others.

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21 hours ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Interesting that AS are about to move into the former submarine base at Neutral Bay, just around the corner from RSYS as a few years back AS rented the top floor of one of the RSYS buildings - but that was when the staff was Tony Mooney and two others.

Yeah but Mooney had the ego of twenty ordinary people, or 40 people the size of mooney.  One of the most self important people ever 

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On 2/21/2020 at 3:56 PM, Couta said:

Club fees are not tied directly to services that a club may receive but instead relate to the needs of the whole sailing community as a collective.

That sounds very familiar.... 

Next phase will be the criticism of those who object and show trials, in "kangaroo courts" (whoops, they are already in progress) and then those who are more equal will be supported in their opulence while the proletariat supports their betters. 

You're simply infested with Commies.

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6 hours ago, Factor said:

Yeah but Mooney had the ego of twenty ordinary people, or 40 people the size of mooney.  One of the most self important people ever 

That may be so but AS also had a shoestring budget in those days and one might argue that Mooney did as much for clubs around the country then as all of AS does now.

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6 hours ago, Factor said:

Yeah but Mooney had the ego of twenty ordinary people, or 40 people the size of mooney.  One of the most self important people ever 

I'll stick up for him - Tony Mooney did more work than 20+ current AS staff, and helped more kids.  Also helped a lot of coaches (the ones who were interested in working, and didn't have attitude).  Good bloke IMHO.  I will always buy him a beer.

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8 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

"Coronavirus shuts down AIS's Northern Italy Base".

WTF?  We run a full sports centre and 50-bed hotel in Northern Italy?

 

 

Your tax dollars at work.

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21 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

"Coronavirus shuts down AIS's Northern Italy Base".

WTF?  We run a full sports centre and 50-bed hotel in Northern Italy?

 

 

All pigs are equal some more equal than others!

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55 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

"Coronavirus shuts down AIS's Northern Italy Base".

WTF?  We run a full sports centre and 50-bed hotel in Northern Italy?

To be fair, that accommodation serves ALL of the AIS athletes, and makes a lot more sense than trying to provide facilities on an ad hoc basis.

Would be nice if we could access it during the off-season tho'.  I've always wanted to spend some time in northern Italy ...

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1 hour ago, Recidivist said:

To be fair, that accommodation serves ALL of the AIS athletes, and makes a lot more sense than trying to provide facilities on an ad hoc basis.

Would be nice if we could access it during the off-season tho'.  I've always wanted to spend some time in northern Italy ...

yes, and no.

As with any government-run facility, it'll be a whole lot less cost effective than an arrangement with an existing privately-run hotel, rather than build a custom facility (

You could even pick one with a gym. 

Lease seems to be about $1M/year (?) . Add 8 people on top of that, it gets pretty expensive.

https://www.sportaus.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/664958/ASC_Financial_Statements_2016-17_Signed_with_audit_opinion.pdf

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As a Manager of the Australian Canoe team (Kayaks get included!!) for a couple of European campaigns (our teams train & compete there regularly) I can tell you from personal experience that the Italian facilities are used and abused, with boats and gear being trashed and stripped as each team rolls thru (it's our rowing squad base too)....I won't go into the politics but it's not a value proposition as it means storing gear in Italy and dragging trailers all over europe/uk.

There's a facility in Portugal that is privately run, exclusively for international canoe/kayak teams and it's booked solid - it has 2 separate dedicated gyms, rehab rooms, masseurs and 2 fully staffed kitchens so it can accomodate 2 teams at once with their differing needs....launch ramps for coach boats, storage facilities....it's first class and it has everything teams could need..... and it is very reasonably priced. From memory it was ~$1800 per person for 10 days....food included!

So much of the way Australian teams do things in europe is poorly managed....but there are vested interests in the status quo....

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14 hours ago, KC375 said:

Your tax dollars at work.

Indeed.

What a waste of money (precious public resources squandered on chasing a few meaningless sports medals).

8 hours ago, Couta said:

I can tell you from personal experience that the Italian facilities are used and abused, with boats and gear being trashed and stripped as each team rolls thru

Nice to know that the pampered athletes appreciate and safeguard what they are given.

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36 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

"Coronavirus shuts down AIS's Northern Italy Base".

WTF?  We run a full sports centre and 50-bed hotel in Northern Italy?

 

 

Where is it? I was just there. 

 

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15 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Where is it? I was just there. 

 

That does sound a bit like Alzheimer’s.

Do you get to meet new people everyday who already know your name?

As to the AIS Italian palace, it's on the north shore of Lago di Varese about an hour's drive north west of Milan.

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52 minutes ago, KC375 said:

That does sound a bit like Alzheimer’s.

Do you get to meet new people everyday who already know your name?

As to the AIS Italian palace, it's on the north shore of Lago di Varese about an hour's drive north west of Milan.

Give me a break mate - I have been feeling a bit off ever since I ate that bat in China a few weeks ago. Flew out of Milan a few days ago. I hope I didn’t leave anything behind.

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15 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Give me a break mate - I have been feeling a bit off ever since I ate that bat in China a few weeks ago. Flew out of Milan a few days ago. I hope I didn’t leave anything behind.

Or bring anything with you worse than a hangover from boozing it up with your progeny.

A great time to be home and not mixing with the bigger world.

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Give me a break mate - I have been feeling a bit off ever since I ate that bat in China a few weeks ago.

Next time maybe hire one *under* 30????

FKT

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30 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Next time maybe hire one *under* 30????

FKT

Yes important to distinguish between avian and terrestrial bats

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On 2/23/2020 at 4:18 PM, Recidivist said:

I'll stick up for him - Tony Mooney did more work than 20+ current AS staff, and helped more kids.  Also helped a lot of coaches (the ones who were interested in working, and didn't have attitude).  Good bloke IMHO.  I will always buy him a beer.

Sounds like the old "but the rains ran on time" Defence

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21 minutes ago, Factor said:

Sounds like the old "but the rains ran on time" Defence

If your intention is to insult me, you'll have to be clearer - I'm a bit slow when it comes to deciphering cryptic comments like this.

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From the Australian Sailing news letter today.

It  is very harsh to put such responsibility on the Commodore, did someone ask the commodores first about this new responsibility.

See the problem with imposing a duty is that there needs to be a sanction for beach.

Safety Culture

Published Wed 19 Feb 2020

Safety culture is the outcome of how the club’s committee, boat owners, race officials and crews think and act.

At the 2019 Offshore Cubs Safety Conference attendees identified culture on boats and in clubs as the biggest safety challenge in sailing. What to do about it begins with leadership and setting an example.

Safety culture in a club starts with the commodore, and on board a boat with the skipper, typically the owner. Their decisions and actions set the safety standard. Their commitment influences others to follow the same way.

Skippers do carry a huge amount of responsibility and will set the standard for the boat. Is the safety equipment required by the Special Regulations in good order? Do they have procedures for man overboard and reefing sail, do they practice this? Are the crew free to talk about shortcomings in equipment or systems that are presenting a risk to crew? The skipper is in the box seat to enable this on board a boat no matter whether it is a two-handed off the beach boat or an ocean-going yacht with 15 crew.

A boat that has crew doing dangerous practices, has poor safety equipment, or maybe exercises unsafe judgement, only needs the skipper to step up and make some pretty clear statements abut what is really needed. When the skipper demonstrates those behaviours, the crew will follow.

In a club the commodore must lead the committee and, if there are employees, the senior staff to make the same commitment, to take up the same values and behaviours. That commitment will lead to the club having rules (yes, that’s right) and procedures to follow. There will be training for officials, volunteers and staff, communication will work in all directions, problems and incidents will be reported and changes made, possibly to rules and procedures where the whole process started.

Looking at the inverse, a poor culture, there will be a downward spiral. Picture there’s an error, a human error. A poor way to handle this is to blame and discipline those involved. This inevitably reduces trust, which negatively impacts communication. With less and guarded communication, the people in positions of leadership becomes less aware. Weaknesses persist, safety defences become flawed and error precursors grow unaddressed. Ultimately it leads to another human error.

A good club may well have a safety incident, but it is how they respond to it that will be the mark of their culture. No blame, but a desire to investigate it and see what can be learned. The people involved are looked after. The likelihood of it happening twice is low.

A strong and positive safety culture from those in charge of a club or boat is what influences everyone’s behaviours and judgement. The culture at the top lifts the game and avoids incidents.

 

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22 minutes ago, lydia said:

From the Australian Sailing news letter today.

Guess like most things to do with Australian Sailing it is applied selectively to certain clubs.

But it is a bit harsh to put such responsibility on the Commodore.

Safety Culture

 

Published Wed 19 Feb 2020

Safety culture is the outcome of how the club’s committee, boat owners, race officials and crews think and act.

 

At the 2019 Offshore Cubs Safety Conference attendees identified culture on boats and in clubs as the biggest safety challenge in sailing. What to do about it begins with leadership and setting an example.

 

Safety culture in a club starts with the commodore, and on board a boat with the skipper, typically the owner. Their decisions and actions set the safety standard. Their commitment influences others to follow the same way.

 

Skippers do carry a huge amount of responsibility and will set the standard for the boat. Is the safety equipment required by the Special Regulations in good order? Do they have procedures for man overboard and reefing sail, do they practice this? Are the crew free to talk about shortcomings in equipment or systems that are presenting a risk to crew? The skipper is in the box seat to enable this on board a boat no matter whether it is a two-handed off the beach boat or an ocean-going yacht with 15 crew.

 

A boat that has crew doing dangerous practices, has poor safety equipment, or maybe exercises unsafe judgement, only needs the skipper to step up and make some pretty clear statements abut what is really needed. When the skipper demonstrates those behaviours, the crew will follow.

 

In a club the commodore must lead the committee and, if there are employees, the senior staff to make the same commitment, to take up the same values and behaviours. That commitment will lead to the club having rules (yes, that’s right) and procedures to follow. There will be training for officials, volunteers and staff, communication will work in all directions, problems and incidents will be reported and changes made, possibly to rules and procedures where the whole process started.

 

Looking at the inverse, a poor culture, there will be a downward spiral. Picture there’s an error, a human error. A poor way to handle this is to blame and discipline those involved. This inevitably reduces trust, which negatively impacts communication. With less and guarded communication, the people in positions of leadership becomes less aware. Weaknesses persist, safety defences become flawed and error precursors grow unaddressed. Ultimately it leads to another human error.

 

A good club may well have a safety incident, but it is how they respond to it that will be the mark of their culture. No blame, but a desire to investigate it and see what can be learned. The people involved are looked after. The likelihood of it happening twice is low.

 

A strong and positive safety culture from those in charge of a club or boat is what influences everyone’s behaviours and judgement. The culture at the top lifts the game and avoids incidents.

 

 

 

I thought the Commo was just there to cut ribbons

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38 minutes ago, lydia said:

From the Australian Sailing news letter today.

It  is very harsh to put such responsibility on the Commodore, did someone ask the commodores first about this new responsibility.

See the problem with imposing a duty is that there needs to be a sanction for beach.

Safety Culture

Published Wed 19 Feb 2020

Safety culture is the outcome of how the club’s committee, boat owners, race officials and crews think and act.

At the 2019 Offshore Cubs Safety Conference attendees identified culture on boats and in clubs as the biggest safety challenge in sailing. What to do about it begins with leadership and setting an example.

Safety culture in a club starts with the commodore, and on board a boat with the skipper, typically the owner. Their decisions and actions set the safety standard. Their commitment influences others to follow the same way.

Skippers do carry a huge amount of responsibility and will set the standard for the boat. Is the safety equipment required by the Special Regulations in good order? Do they have procedures for man overboard and reefing sail, do they practice this? Are the crew free to talk about shortcomings in equipment or systems that are presenting a risk to crew? The skipper is in the box seat to enable this on board a boat no matter whether it is a two-handed off the beach boat or an ocean-going yacht with 15 crew.

A boat that has crew doing dangerous practices, has poor safety equipment, or maybe exercises unsafe judgement, only needs the skipper to step up and make some pretty clear statements abut what is really needed. When the skipper demonstrates those behaviours, the crew will follow.

In a club the commodore must lead the committee and, if there are employees, the senior staff to make the same commitment, to take up the same values and behaviours. That commitment will lead to the club having rules (yes, that’s right) and procedures to follow. There will be training for officials, volunteers and staff, communication will work in all directions, problems and incidents will be reported and changes made, possibly to rules and procedures where the whole process started.

Looking at the inverse, a poor culture, there will be a downward spiral. Picture there’s an error, a human error. A poor way to handle this is to blame and discipline those involved. This inevitably reduces trust, which negatively impacts communication. With less and guarded communication, the people in positions of leadership becomes less aware. Weaknesses persist, safety defences become flawed and error precursors grow unaddressed. Ultimately it leads to another human error.

A good club may well have a safety incident, but it is how they respond to it that will be the mark of their culture. No blame, but a desire to investigate it and see what can be learned. The people involved are looked after. The likelihood of it happening twice is low.

A strong and positive safety culture from those in charge of a club or boat is what influences everyone’s behaviours and judgement. The culture at the top lifts the game and avoids incidents.

 

Compulsory mouthgaurds?

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59 minutes ago, lydia said:

From the Australian Sailing news letter today.

It  is very harsh to put such responsibility on the Commodore, did someone ask the commodores first about this new responsibility.

See the problem with imposing a duty is that there needs to be a sanction for beach.

Safety Culture

Published Wed 19 Feb 2020

Safety culture is the outcome of how the club’s committee, boat owners, race officials and crews think and act.

At the 2019 Offshore Cubs Safety Conference attendees identified culture on boats and in clubs as the biggest safety challenge in sailing. What to do about it begins with leadership and setting an example.

Safety culture in a club starts with the commodore, and on board a boat with the skipper, typically the owner. Their decisions and actions set the safety standard. Their commitment influences others to follow the same way.

Skippers do carry a huge amount of responsibility and will set the standard for the boat. Is the safety equipment required by the Special Regulations in good order? Do they have procedures for man overboard and reefing sail, do they practice this? Are the crew free to talk about shortcomings in equipment or systems that are presenting a risk to crew? The skipper is in the box seat to enable this on board a boat no matter whether it is a two-handed off the beach boat or an ocean-going yacht with 15 crew.

A boat that has crew doing dangerous practices, has poor safety equipment, or maybe exercises unsafe judgement, only needs the skipper to step up and make some pretty clear statements abut what is really needed. When the skipper demonstrates those behaviours, the crew will follow.

In a club the commodore must lead the committee and, if there are employees, the senior staff to make the same commitment, to take up the same values and behaviours. That commitment will lead to the club having rules (yes, that’s right) and procedures to follow. There will be training for officials, volunteers and staff, communication will work in all directions, problems and incidents will be reported and changes made, possibly to rules and procedures where the whole process started.

Looking at the inverse, a poor culture, there will be a downward spiral. Picture there’s an error, a human error. A poor way to handle this is to blame and discipline those involved. This inevitably reduces trust, which negatively impacts communication. With less and guarded communication, the people in positions of leadership becomes less aware. Weaknesses persist, safety defences become flawed and error precursors grow unaddressed. Ultimately it leads to another human error.

A good club may well have a safety incident, but it is how they respond to it that will be the mark of their culture. No blame, but a desire to investigate it and see what can be learned. The people involved are looked after. The likelihood of it happening twice is low.

A strong and positive safety culture from those in charge of a club or boat is what influences everyone’s behaviours and judgement. The culture at the top lifts the game and avoids incidents.

 

Looking at it differently, whoever wrote this a comedy god and should be working writing the scripts for Utopia! (Aust TV series)

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57 minutes ago, lydia said:

Looking at it differently, whoever wrote this a comedy god and should be working writing the scripts for Utopia! (Aust TV series)

It's mostly a statement of the bleeding obvious. You guys need to pay money to SA for this sort of guff?

I can't wait for the mandatory extra special high intensity training leading to a Cert 3 in sailboat safety for all crew before anyone can go for a day sail.

FKT

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4 hours ago, lydia said:

From the Australian Sailing news letter today.

It  is very harsh to put such responsibility on the Commodore, did someone ask the commodores first about this new responsibility.

See the problem with imposing a duty is that there needs to be a sanction for beach.

Safety Culture

Published Wed 19 Feb 2020

Safety culture is the outcome of how the club’s committee, boat owners, race officials and crews think and act.

At the 2019 Offshore Cubs Safety Conference attendees identified culture on boats and in clubs as the biggest safety challenge in sailing. What to do about it begins with leadership and setting an example.

Safety culture in a club starts with the commodore, and on board a boat with the skipper, typically the owner. Their decisions and actions set the safety standard. Their commitment influences others to follow the same way.

Skippers do carry a huge amount of responsibility and will set the standard for the boat. Is the safety equipment required by the Special Regulations in good order? Do they have procedures for man overboard and reefing sail, do they practice this? Are the crew free to talk about shortcomings in equipment or systems that are presenting a risk to crew? The skipper is in the box seat to enable this on board a boat no matter whether it is a two-handed off the beach boat or an ocean-going yacht with 15 crew.

A boat that has crew doing dangerous practices, has poor safety equipment, or maybe exercises unsafe judgement, only needs the skipper to step up and make some pretty clear statements abut what is really needed. When the skipper demonstrates those behaviours, the crew will follow.

In a club the commodore must lead the committee and, if there are employees, the senior staff to make the same commitment, to take up the same values and behaviours. That commitment will lead to the club having rules (yes, that’s right) and procedures to follow. There will be training for officials, volunteers and staff, communication will work in all directions, problems and incidents will be reported and changes made, possibly to rules and procedures where the whole process started.

Looking at the inverse, a poor culture, there will be a downward spiral. Picture there’s an error, a human error. A poor way to handle this is to blame and discipline those involved. This inevitably reduces trust, which negatively impacts communication. With less and guarded communication, the people in positions of leadership becomes less aware. Weaknesses persist, safety defences become flawed and error precursors grow unaddressed. Ultimately it leads to another human error.

A good club may well have a safety incident, but it is how they respond to it that will be the mark of their culture. No blame, but a desire to investigate it and see what can be learned. The people involved are looked after. The likelihood of it happening twice is low.

A strong and positive safety culture from those in charge of a club or boat is what influences everyone’s behaviours and judgement. The culture at the top lifts the game and avoids incidents.

 

so the owner gets a free pass, with no responsibility?

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That’s not a safety culture by any stretch of the imagination, what AS have described is called Leadership, sadly lacking in both AS and many clubs.

also glad to see the cubs go offshore (para 2)

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5 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Compulsory mouthgaurds?

and Cricket Boxes...

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With the nanny state mentality, i predict that the future for yacht racing in Aus will be found in this thread

 

 

 until someone drowns when going to close to the waters edge to recover their boat 

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38 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

With the nanny state mentality, i predict that the future for yacht racing in Aus will be found in this thread

 

 

 until someone drowns when going to close to the waters edge to recover their boat 

Don't laugh, I bought a One metre  in early 2017 and have been finding it far more competitive and enjoyable than real boats.

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5 hours ago, lydia said:

From the Australian Sailing news letter today.

It  is very harsh to put such responsibility on the Commodore, did someone ask the commodores first about this new responsibility.

See the problem with imposing a duty is that there needs to be a sanction for beach.

Safety Culture

Published Wed 19 Feb 2020

Safety culture is the outcome of how the club’s committee, boat owners, race officials and crews think and act.

At the 2019 Offshore Cubs Safety Conference attendees identified culture on boats and in clubs as the biggest safety challenge in sailing. What to do about it begins with leadership and setting an example.

Safety culture in a club starts with the commodore, and on board a boat with the skipper, typically the owner. Their decisions and actions set the safety standard. Their commitment influences others to follow the same way.

Skippers do carry a huge amount of responsibility and will set the standard for the boat. Is the safety equipment required by the Special Regulations in good order? Do they have procedures for man overboard and reefing sail, do they practice this? Are the crew free to talk about shortcomings in equipment or systems that are presenting a risk to crew? The skipper is in the box seat to enable this on board a boat no matter whether it is a two-handed off the beach boat or an ocean-going yacht with 15 crew.

A boat that has crew doing dangerous practices, has poor safety equipment, or maybe exercises unsafe judgement, only needs the skipper to step up and make some pretty clear statements abut what is really needed. When the skipper demonstrates those behaviours, the crew will follow.

In a club the commodore must lead the committee and, if there are employees, the senior staff to make the same commitment, to take up the same values and behaviours. That commitment will lead to the club having rules (yes, that’s right) and procedures to follow. There will be training for officials, volunteers and staff, communication will work in all directions, problems and incidents will be reported and changes made, possibly to rules and procedures where the whole process started.

Looking at the inverse, a poor culture, there will be a downward spiral. Picture there’s an error, a human error. A poor way to handle this is to blame and discipline those involved. This inevitably reduces trust, which negatively impacts communication. With less and guarded communication, the people in positions of leadership becomes less aware. Weaknesses persist, safety defences become flawed and error precursors grow unaddressed. Ultimately it leads to another human error.

A good club may well have a safety incident, but it is how they respond to it that will be the mark of their culture. No blame, but a desire to investigate it and see what can be learned. The people involved are looked after. The likelihood of it happening twice is low.

A strong and positive safety culture from those in charge of a club or boat is what influences everyone’s behaviours and judgement. The culture at the top lifts the game and avoids incidents.

 

Now I'm really confused. If a RO starts a race in adverse conditions, or willingly sends the fleet on a course inappropriate to the safety requirements of the Sailing Instructions they prepared, and to which all the owners have complied, and warns the competitors to be prudent and mindful of RRS4, and someone is injured, who is responsible and/òr negligent:

a) the crew person who chose of their own free (and unpaid) will to be on the boat;

b) the owner/skipper or person in charge of the vessel;

c) the Race Officer executing their discretion to conduct events under SI's they prepared;

d) the Commodore as the employer of the RO, paid or volunteer;

e) or AS if it is a National Championship where AS is a party (even if "delegated" to a club as Organising Authority) or where the club is operating under the formal advice as quoted above from AS?

THE CULTURE AT THE TOP LIFTS THE GAME AND AVOIDS INCIDENTS.

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10 minutes ago, (p)Irate said:

Now I'm really confused. If a RO starts a race in adverse conditions, or willingly sends the fleet on a course inappropriate to the safety requirements of the Sailing Instructions they prepared, and to which all the owners have complied, and warns the competitors to be prudent and mindful of RRS4, and someone is injured, who is responsible and/òr negligent:

a) the crew person who chose of their own free (and unpaid) will to be on the boat;

b) the owner/skipper or person in charge of the vessel;

c) the Race Officer executing their discretion to conduct events under SI's they prepared;

d) the Commodore as the employer of the RO, paid or volunteer;

e) or AS if it is a National Championship where AS is a party (even if "delegated" to a club as Organising Authority) or where the club is operating under the formal advice as quoted above from AS?

THE CULTURE AT THE TOP LIFTS THE GAME AND AVOIDS INCIDENTS.

I'm no lawyer (as will be obvious to the lawyers) but it seems to me AS has just ensured that AS and club flag officers will now be automatically named as defendants in a bunch of "duty of care" suits. If the culture at the top has responsibility then I'd expect Ben Houston and Daniel Belcher  to feature on those filings.

If you thought you had a hard time recruiting the best flag officers...that just got harder. If I were on a Australian yacht club board I'd be thinking hard about resigning to limit my exposure.

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We have a winner

especially in a jurisdiction with proportionate liability legislation

law of unintended consequences strikes again 

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Of course in Queensland the standard of care expected might be different given the high profile incidents over the last few years

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1 hour ago, lydia said:

We have a winner

especially in a jurisdiction with proportionate liability legislation

law of unintended consequences strikes again 

As I think about what AS might have learned from reading The Prince...it strikes me this might not be accidental.

AS will make sure they have bullet proof D&O insurance to protect themselves, and will develop expertise in liability insurance and incident response. AS will become essential protective cover for now overly exposed yacht club boards.

To some extent the importance of the American Medical Association and the Canadian Medical Association went up as malpractice cases and settlements went up. No Canadian Dr would practice without coverage from the Canadian Medical Protective Association...the CMA sinecures are guaranteed for life (in fact I think you can now will them on to your grandchildren).

(OK maybe the paranoia is acting up again, must medicate)

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4 minutes ago, KC375 said:

As I think about what AS might have learned from reading The Prince...it strikes me this might not be accidental.

AS will make sure they have bullet proof D&O insurance to protect themselves, and will develop expertise in liability insurance and incident response. AS will become essential protective cover for now overly exposed yacht club boards.

To some extent the importance of the American Medical Association and the Canadian Medical Association went up as malpractice cases and settlements went up. No Canadian Dr would practice without coverage from the Canadian Medical Protective Association...the CMA sinecures are guaranteed for life (in fact I think you can now will them on to your grandchildren).

(OK maybe the paranoia is acting up again, must medicate)

I guess that is a likely conclusion to AS having an insurance company as a major sponsor...

We (the paying members) are all winners from that relationship!

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They are not that smart!

besides proper D and O cover arranged through a peak body would be a worthwhile thing for a peak body to do

 

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Yeah probably.

But the whole Nautilus 'relationship' breakdown is a good example of longer term repercussions for the end users when things don't quite work out like our esteemed leaders planned.  I'd say half the countries dinghy sailors are now either wasting hours on the phone chasing quotes, or simply not bothering to reinsure due to the 200%+ increases in renewals.  I suppose it was good while it lasted...

i wonder if an ACCC enquiry into insurance companies would uncover much?

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You got to hand it to AS, they are taking the lead on safety and the responsibility for the safety of competitors whilst taking zero responsibility....

Even AS's own events...

Clubs should insist that as part of the condition of hosting an event for AS, AS should provide a sailing safety official who has the final say.....

 

tenor.gif

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8 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Don't laugh ...I went radio controlled and then cancelled my Tinder account.

images - 2020-02-26T235920.093.jpeg

I thought you cancelled Tinder ages ago after you found Meme's..

 

910OHnHuFmL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

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Once again I have the feeling that AS are wandering outside their remit.  To an extent, however, they are only expressing an opinion because, as lydia points out, there is no sanction if the suggestion is not followed.  I would suggest AS has no power to impose such a sanction.  In which case, why this pontification in the first place?

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But they have set a standard which binds others without AS taking responsibility 

Of course setting stanards might fine provided you are properly enforcing them

so how will AS enforce the standard

certainly not the standard at all clubs in queensland

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1 hour ago, Rohanoz said:

Yeah probably.

But the whole Nautilus 'relationship' breakdown is a good example of longer term repercussions for the end users when things don't quite work out like our esteemed leaders planned.  I'd say half the countries dinghy sailors are now either wasting hours on the phone chasing quotes, or simply not bothering to reinsure due to the 200%+ increases in renewals.  I suppose it was good while it lasted...

i wonder if an ACCC enquiry into insurance companies would uncover much?

Funny you say that

I have a boat with nautilus and went to insure new small powerboat with them and the quote was 4 times yep 4 times the quote from another well known insurer

 

 

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Similar story... we just purchased a smallish runabout... 4.75m, pretty old (1986) with an old 75hp outboard and trailer... Nautilus requested Boat Condition report by a suitable qualified assesor, Outboard Condition report by suitably qualified assessor, Trailer Condition Report by suitably qualified assessor before cover would be provided, for a total package value under of $7k ... I checked with another well known insurer, who requested none of the above and was significantly cheaper.... no prizes for guessing who got our business

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2 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

With or without a relationship with AS, sounds like Nautilus is trying to get out of marine insurance 

they certainly have been making it hard to get racing insurance. Maybe figured they only want to insure cruisers that only leave the mooring once a year.

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Try NRMA for boat insurance I’ve had a couple of policies with them. Never had to put in a claim though. 

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4 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

I thought you cancelled Tinder ages ago after you found Meme's..

Nah tried her, but I'm an astsmatic so she kept going down on me.

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7 hours ago, Rawhide said:

they certainly have been making it hard to get racing insurance. Maybe figured they only want to insure cruisers that only leave the mooring once a year.

nah... there are plenty of boats in marinas that never leave the pen. Why risk insuring once a year cruisers.

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Paywall

 

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On 2/27/2020 at 12:10 PM, Weyalan said:

Similar story... we just purchased a smallish runabout... 4.75m, pretty old (1986) with an old 75hp outboard and trailer... Nautilus requested Boat Condition report by a suitable qualified assesor, Outboard Condition report by suitably qualified assessor, Trailer Condition Report by suitably qualified assessor before cover would be provided, for a total package value under of $7k ... I checked with another well known insurer, who requested none of the above and was significantly cheaper.... no prizes for guessing who got our business

Our old steber is insured with RACT

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3 hours ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Well done RQYS.

Taking out the trash, one load at a time.

Once again making the right call.

Kudos.

 

But can he get still buy a day pass?????

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2 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

Did he call anyone a muppet?
 

I can neither confirm nor deny that 

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10 hours ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Well done RQYS.

Taking out the trash, one load at a time.

Once again making the right call.

Kudos.

 

He pleaded guilty in May 2019.

Just RQYS been gutless.

The appeal had nothing to do with the plea but was to sentence only

Less of course that is just a special deal for the crew of flag officers.

See what happens with the kid who has pleaded guilty to the assault on the Sikh taxi driver.

How fast will they move on this one!

RQYS- a culture of violence!

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3 hours ago, lydia said:

 

See what happens with the kid who has pleaded guilty to the assault on the Sikh taxi driver.

 

Thank you for your contribution.

It appears that you are RACIST.

WTF has a TAXI DRIVER got to do with this shit show?

Is there a connection with the UBER driver?

More importantly, WTF has the taxi drivers ethnicity got to do with the "assault"?

 

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Clearly you have not been reading the local papers

try to keep up

the assault also involved ripping the dastar from the mans head

hard to think of something more offensive

 

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10 minutes ago, lydia said:

Clearly you have not been reading the local papers

try to keep up

the assault also involved ripping the dastar from the mans head

hard to think of something more offensive

 

Have you got a link you can share?

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13 hours ago, olaf hart said:

Our old steber is insured with RACT

Ding ding ding! We have a winner

Our venerable Flightcraft 4.75 started to earn it's keep on Saturday when it provided us with an opportunity to fill our fish bucket, and subsequently our stomachs with fresh fish

(Jack mackerel and Australian salmon, while not the finest fish in the sea, coated with egg n breadcrumbs and fried was plenty good enough for the likes of us)

 

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1 hour ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Have you got a link you can share?

Search taxi driver assault Wynnum and you will do fine

 

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6 minutes ago, Weyalan said:

 

(Jack mackerel and Australian salmon, while not the finest fish in the sea, coated with egg n breadcrumbs and fried was plenty good enough for the likes of us)

 

Those salmon weren't escapees were they?  TASSAL will be visiting ...

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Australian salmon. Wrong ones

mind you Tassal are very supportive of the local community down my way

often just before new year

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7 minutes ago, lydia said:

Search taxi driver assault Wynnum and you will do fine 

 

Was this the incident you referenced

Judge tells 'privileged' ex-private schoolboy rugby player to 'stop snivelling' when he breaks down in court after brutally bashing and racially abusing a taxi driver

If so what is the link with RQYS, Australian Sailing or Peter Hollis.

Is Lambourne a member of RQYS?

Confused minds want to know.

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1 hour ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Thank you for your contribution.

It appears that you are RACIST.

WTF has a TAXI DRIVER got to do with this shit show?

Is there a connection with the UBER driver?

More importantly, WTF has the taxi drivers ethnicity got to do with the "assault"?

 

Mrs O you got that a bit back to front there

racism is where the white guy takes the non member Wednesday sailing and gets a polite phone call from the chairman of the sailing committee but when the man from the sub continent take a non member sailing on a Wednesday he gets hauled in front of the general committee

you see that is institutional racism

glad to help

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31 minutes ago, Recidivist said:

Those salmon weren't escapees were they?  TASSAL will be visiting ...

AFAIK, escaped salmon are perfectly fair game for Joe Citizen...

... and for the record, escaped farmed salmon seem to lose a lot of fat when they have been escaped for a couple of weeks and are, to my palate, better eating than farmed salmon purchased from the supermarket ;)

 

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4 minutes ago, Weyalan said:

AFAIK, escaped salmon are perfectly fair game for Joe Citizen...

... and for the record, escaped farmed salmon seem to lose a lot of fat when they have been escaped for a couple of weeks and are, to my palate, better eating than farmed salmon purchased from the supermarket ;)

 

Yeah, I know what you mean.  As a Territorian accustomed to wild Barramundi, the farmed stuff just doesn't have the muscle tone - they have the texture of mashed potatoes.

But last May in Norway I had salmon that I'm pretty sure would not have been wild caught, but it was  truly excellent!  

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