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2 minutes ago, lydia said:

We have lost this battle unfortunately .

monitoring of HF will be discontinued shortly.

Insanity.

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3 minutes ago, lydia said:

We have lost this battle unfortunately .

monitoring of HF will be discontinued shortly.

Not my shit fight, but clearly alternative opinions exist.

'The Sydney Hobart is the last major ocean race in the world to insist on HF radios for every entrant. At around $5000, it is an expensive item and I believe serves as a disincentive to entry. In the past the club has claimed that the reason for HF is because a broadcast to all yachts is possible. However, this option is also possible as a text message via satellite phone, with the added advantage that the message is retained. Sat phones are now compulsory for the race, so should the requirement to also have an HF radio be removed?'

 

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2 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

Not my shit fight, but clearly alternative opinions exist.

'The Sydney Hobart is the last major ocean race in the world to insist on HF radios for every entrant. At around $5000, it is an expensive item and I believe serves as a disincentive to entry. In the past the club has claimed that the reason for HF is because a broadcast to all yachts is possible. However, this option is also possible as a text message via satellite phone, with the added advantage that the message is retained. Sat phones are now compulsory for the race, so should the requirement to also have an HF radio be removed?'

 

You can broadcast a text from a sat phone now?

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6 minutes ago, Abbo said:

You can broadcast a text from a sat phone now?

Guess so(?). The newer VHFs automatically records the last 30 sec of a transmission which is pretty handy.

New tech eventually replaces the old.

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but you need every nos in the fleet

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7 minutes ago, lydia said:

but you need every nos in the fleet

I would assume(?), you could preload all the numbers of the participants at the dockside and then save under a single contact - 'fleet'.

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1 hour ago, Abbo said:

I am a firm believer in the use of HF as a safety device in CAT 1. In an ocean race, 11 times out of 10 the nearest rescue asset is a fellow competitor. HF is BROADCAST. Mobile and SAT phones are not. Pretty simple really.

Luckily the S2H is just a coastal sprint with most competitors always within VHF range of other vessels. if they are alone, the race tracker lets AMSA know which competitors to call who can render assistance and Satellite AIS lets them know which ships to call.

btw don’t the racers turn off their HF units to conserve batteries?

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13 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

I would assume(?), you could preload all the numbers of the participants at the dockside and then save under a single contact - 'fleet'.

No need. AMSA/race official can relay the text message to the entire fleet or perhaps more sensibly to the nearby competitors and shipping.

just like they can if an Epirb is triggered

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41 minutes ago, lydia said:

but you need every nos in the fleet

Yes. And the SAR, race office etc etc.

I have a sat phone and no HF,  but compared to voice , texting backwards and forwards seems like a pretty inefficient communication method as a SAR relay when you're freezing fucking cold with numb fingers , small buttons and in a world of trouble. 

Would give a lot of  wriggle room though to RO's with questionable practices and with MNA's in shirking their obligations. Sat phone text message might get there in the end, but no methodology exists to guarantee the delivery of that message in a certain time frame.  

Another issue is, and I could be wrong here, but I've never seen a priority sat phone text message. Pray you don't have a bazillion text messages to scroll through to find the ooops... a distress call from another competitor.   

    

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2 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

Yes. And the SAR, race office etc etc.

I have a sat phone and no HF,  but compared to voice , texting backwards and forwards seems like a pretty inefficient communication method as a SAR relay when you're freezing fucking cold with numb fingers , small buttons and in a world of trouble. 

Would give a lot of  wriggle room to RO's with questionable practices and with MNA's in shirking their obligations. Sat phone text message might get there in the end, but no methodology exists to guarantee the delivery of that message in a certain time frame.  

    

You just need the number to call in an emergency on speed dial and put in a voice call when the shit hits the fan. They can send the text to everyone.

Sending a text in an emergency would be a dumb thing, both because of the typing difficulty and once sent, you don’t know if it was read or even sent correctly

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12 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

You just need the number to call in an emergency on speed dial and put in a voice call when the shit hits the fan. They can send the text to everyone.

 Sending a text in an emergency would be a dumb thing, both because of the typing difficulty and once sent, you don’t know if it was read or even sent correctly

I'm hearing you Hoppy, but that style of  broadcast of a text message would put SAR as a human relay in the middle of 4 different networks; from the boat in distress via the satellite network, then routed through a terrestrial network, a bit of human interaction then back out on the terrestrial network to route back to the satellite network for delivery. None of those networks will include in their SLA's a fixed time frame on delivery of a text message. 

I know from my professional life as to the issue of reliability in terrestrial mobile networks in delivering real time critical information. That's why sometimes you can get a text message a day late, it is so bad that Telstra created a brand new service called Lanes to try and offer support for emergency services in guaranteeing delivery of messages through the wireless networks, and no other carrier has that capability. 

It's not a commercial service either, you have to get the federal attorney general to approve the use of Lanes if you fall between the cracks of what they deem emergency services. Lots of minutae to deal with yet.     

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12 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

inefficient communication method as a SAR relay when you're freezing fucking cold with numb fingers , small buttons and in a world of trouble. 

 

Surely you could say the same about HF. Someone wet n freezing fucken cold needs to listen, interpret, and then madly write down the comms (correctly) with numb fingers. Then at least four people need to argue about what they heard.

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1 hour ago, Abbo said:

AMSA are wrong!!! As Lydia and many of you know I've had the misfortune of putting out a mayday on HF. 5 minutes later our batteries were underwater. 5 minutes after that we spotted our nearest competitor on the horizon heading straight towards us, they heard our Mayday on the HF. It was only then we could contact him on the handheld VHF. Every second counts in these situations, you simply cannot discount the advantage of broadcasting a distress signal.

Abbo, I hear where you are coming from, however almost all competitors do not maintain a constant HF watch.  The HF is on for the sched then turned off to due to battery usage and the noise.  

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Just now, FinnFish said:

Surely you could say the same about HF. Someone wet n freezing fucken cold needs to listen, interpret, and then madly write down the comms (correctly) with numb fingers. Then at least four people need to argue about what they heard.

Hiya Finn, 

Yep, absolutely, I'm not saying I have the solution. But voice broadcast , for all its warts, is as near to real time as you can get.  Non streaming (streaming being audio or video) comms relies on buffers and delays to make it all work, we have lots of arbitrary shit in the networks that amount to problems that need to be worked through.

 

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30 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

btw don’t the racers turn off their HF units to conserve batteries?

And their AIS transmitters.........

if the Helicopters interfere with either their  Bouffant Hair Do or their Powerboat customers get too close on the exit from the Heads................ 

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11 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

I'm hearing you Hoppy, but that style of  broadcast of a text message would put SAR as a human relay in the middle of 4 different networks; from the boat in distress via the satellite network, then routed through a terrestrial network, a bit of human interaction then back out on the terrestrial network to route back to the satellite network for delivery. None of those networks will include in their SLA's a fixed time frame on delivery of a text message. 

I know from my professional life as to the issue of reliability in terrestrial mobile networks in delivering real time critical information. That's why sometimes you can get a text message a day late, it is so bad that Telstra created a brand new service called Lanes to try and offer support for emergency services in guaranteeing delivery of messages through the wireless networks, and no other carrier has that capability. 

It's not a commercial service either, you have to get the federal attorney general to approve the use of Lanes if you fall between the cracks of what they deem emergency services. Lots of minutae to deal with yet.     

I agree that text can be useless, because even if there is no delay in it being received, you may miss the beep from the phone.

i would expect that the sensible approach would be for the SAR to contact the RO and the RO text, then calls the nearest competitors who can issue a mayday relay on VHF. The RO can pass on the numbers for the boats who are heading to assist.

Better than hoping that nearby boats have their HF on rather than saving battery.

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Voice is primary for emergency communication and text should be considered like the minutes of a meeting. Reference to refer back to and a way to keep non attendees informed.

 

33 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Abbo, I hear where you are coming from, however almost all competitors do not maintain a constant HF watch.  The HF is on for the sched then turned off to due to battery usage and the noise.  

This is the most important fact about HF.

if you are in VHF range you will hear the DSC alarm and get the position, even if voice may be less understandable (my VHF alarm could wake the dead)

if your phone receives a text and then a call. You will probably not hear the beep from the text but someone may hear the ringing. If you don’t answer in time, the text will give you a head start whilst you try to call.

HF will be sitting their quietly, oblivious to the calls because it is off.

 

HF still has a purpose for ocean cruisers and real ocean races, but is is an unnecessary expense for the annual Aussie Cat 1 & 2 offshore races.

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1 hour ago, The Dark Knight said:

Luckily the S2H is just a coastal sprint with most competitors always within VHF range of other vessels. if they are alone, the race tracker lets AMSA know which competitors to call who can render assistance and Satellite AIS lets them know which ships to call.

btw don’t the racers turn off their HF units to conserve batteries?

I hope you are taking the piss?

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6 minutes ago, Abbo said:

I hope you are taking the piss?

Nope

what use is HF if it is not turned on in other vessels?

time to put your HF out to pasture unless you are crossing oceans or just like to chat.
 

 

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You can keep your HF fitted, just like you can keep your entry fee in your account. 

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We were 70 miles east of Narooma when we sunk and we were not the furthest east, a teeny tiny bit beyond VHF range no? No other vessels in sight. The time lost in AMSA relaying information would have meant we abandoned to the raft and our boat would have sunk well before assistance arrived. They would have been looking for a raft instead of a fully rigged 40ft yacht. As it was, our rescuers HEARD our mayday and responded immediately. As Shaggy quite rightly points out, texts are not guaranteed, far from it in fact. This bullshit about HF's being switched off is more a reflection of the lack of seamanship of the crew. I've done 5 Hobarts and the HF was never off for one second. The same people who switch off the HF would probably throw the sat phone in the chart table and forget about it until the next sched.

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9 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

Nope

what use is HF if it is not turned on in other vessels?

time to put your HF out to pasture unless you are crossing oceans or just like to chat.
 

 

It works rather well when your nearest competitor exercises good seamanship and leaves theirs on and responds to your mayday immediately. What good is a sat phone sitting in a chart table unattended?  Your logic applies equally to both HF and sat phones, yet you are using it to promote sat phones. Haven't really thought this through have you?

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2 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

Luckily the S2H is just a coastal sprint with most competitors always within VHF range of other vessels. if they are alone, the race tracker lets AMSA know which competitors to call who can render assistance and Satellite AIS lets them know which ships to call.

btw don’t the racers turn off their HF units to conserve batteries?

I am curious about this "coastal sprint" you speak of... are you aware of the fact that a vessel on the rhumbline of the course will be more than 80 miles from the nearest land for several hours when crossing Bass strait? You might find you are on your own with your definition of "coastal".

 

Are you also aware that it takes more than a few boat 5 days or more to complete the course? Your definition of "sprint" might need some work too.

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20 minutes ago, Abbo said:

It works rather well when your nearest competitor exercises good seamanship and leaves theirs on and responds to your mayday immediately. What good is a sat phone sitting in a chart table unattended?  Your logic applies equally to both HF and sat phones, yet you are using it to promote sat phones. Haven't really thought this through have you?

Do everyone favour and put another teaspoon of sugar on your weeties tomorrow. 

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6 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

Do everyone favour and put another teaspoon of sugar on your weeties tomorrow. 

Psssst. Resorting to a personal attack proves you are losing the arguement. Just thought you should know.

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Abbo, whilst keeping the HF running all the time is prudent seamanship, in real life it does not happen much anymore. The sailing instructions only require VHF to be monitored 24hrs.  The nav goes down, switches the HF on for the sched then switches it off soon after the sched is over.  You may be lucky that someone hears you or the emergency happens near sched time and someone is listening.  Not that it matters much if HF is not going to monitored by the rescue authorities soon

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20 minutes ago, Abbo said:

I am curious about this "coastal sprint" you speak of... are you aware of the fact that a vessel on the rhumbline of the course will be more than 80 miles from the nearest land for several hours when crossing Bass strait? You might find you are on your own with your definition of "coastal".

 

Are you also aware that it takes more than a few boat 5 days or more to complete the course? Your definition of "sprint" might need some work too.

80nm offshore is well within range of a SAR chopper. Not exactly mid ocean.

relying on others prudent seamanship to monitor HF is just foolish when the race regs do not mandate it. 
 

49 minutes ago, Abbo said:

It works rather well when your nearest competitor exercises good seamanship and leaves theirs on and responds to your mayday immediately. What good is a sat phone sitting in a chart table unattended?  Your logic applies equally to both HF and sat phones, yet you are using it to promote sat phones. Haven't really thought this through have you?

A sat phone at an unattended nav station is still better than a HF radio that is turned off, because maybe a crew member might just hear the ringing and investigate to see a missed call. An off HF does not offer that.
 

In the perfect wold, HF may offer the benefits, but that is not the real world. If you want to have HF onboard an monitor it, go for it. 

1 hour ago, Abbo said:

We were 70 miles east of Narooma when we sunk and we were not the furthest east, a teeny tiny bit beyond VHF range no? No other vessels in sight. The time lost in AMSA relaying information would have meant we abandoned to the raft and our boat would have sunk well before assistance arrived. They would have been looking for a raft instead of a fully rigged 40ft yacht. As it was, our rescuers HEARD our mayday and responded immediately. As Shaggy quite rightly points out, texts are not guaranteed, far from it in fact. This bullshit about HF's being switched off is more a reflection of the lack of seamanship of the crew. I've done 5 Hobarts and the HF was never off for one second. The same people who switch off the HF would probably throw the sat phone in the chart table and forget about it until the next sched.

how long do you think it takes for amsa to relay a mayday message to the nearest vessels?

sure it will take time if no one hears the phone ringing, but if they didn’t hear the phone, the probably would not have heard the HF 

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25 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Abbo, whilst keeping the HF running all the time is prudent seamanship, in real life it does not happen much anymore. The sailing instructions only require VHF to be monitored 24hrs.  The nav goes down, switches the HF on for the sched then switches it off soon after the sched is over.  You may be lucky that someone hears you or the emergency happens near sched time and someone is listening.  Not that it matters much if HF is not going to monitored by the rescue authorities soon

I get it, the clock is ticking on HF. Don't get me wrong, I hate the bloody things and have spent a lot more time than most trying to get the damn things to work and get the boat past safety in the days leading up to a race. Sooner they are gone the better. 

I am well aware that the SI's don't mandate monitoring the HF and have not for quite some time. But that doesn't make it right. If we are serious about safety it should be mandatory and until such times as a superior technology arrives it should remain. Currently, there is nothing better than broadcast HF for alerting and managing a live rescue situation. Other technologies have their benefits sure but none can compete with the speed of response and meaningful communication of HF.

I cannot begin to describe how comforting it is to hear a voice reply immediately to your mayday and say "copy your mayday and position, we are 10 miles due east of you and proceeding at best speed to your position" when you are 70 miles out to sea, no other vessels in sight and knee deep in water with a bucket in your hands.

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1 hour ago, Abbo said:

Psssst. Resorting to a personal attack proves you are losing the arguement. Just thought you should know.

What's the argument? Perhaps bringing out the 'Haven't really thought this through have you?' simply reveals your own old-man shout at clouds mentality.

Clearly HF clearly has advantages, real time comms is one of those, but things change and eventually new tech wins out, try chucking an HF set into raft.

Get use to reading that below   

2.3 Amendments to the Australian Sailing SR:
a. SR 3.25.1 (c): All boats shall carry on board a Satellite Phone. The Satellite Phone shall have coverage
for the duration of the race and be connected to main power or have a spare battery. All satellite
phones must be capable of sending and receiving SMS text messages and telephone calls.
b. SR 3.25.1 (a) A HF Radio is not required.

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Older type HF's are pretty useless at sunrise or sunset... around electrical storm activity... Or in the Pacific where the distress and working channels are chockers with incessant Asian fishing fleet chatter. There are lots of times during a day where you can't get a distress message out.

The rest of the world, certainly the commercial world, uses GMDSS... It integrates Inmarsat-A, SAT-C, AIS, EPIRB, HF and VHF, all at the push of one little red button. (In a distress scenario.)

For yachts, modern HF radios are digital and send distress information digitally at the push of a button. Same with VHF fitted with DSC. No one serious wrestles with the old WAGNER, Sailor or SEA222 HF's.

Once you push that distress button on GMDSS equipment, it digitally sends your position, IMO number, MMSI, vessel information and nature of distress. (Fire, medical, flooding, pirate etc.) The rescue authourity can then contact all the GMDSS equipped ships (or yachts) nearby requesting they render assistance. The rescue centre will also contact your Designated Person Ashore (DPA) to inform them of your situation... The rescue center will call you and coordinate things directly with you using your MMSI. Simples.

 

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Actually, some of us still use Wagners and even better Codans.

They were built to a different standard to the lesser standard that is used now.

So if it ain't broke don't touch it!

I do have a ICOM and give me the Codan any day.

But agree the SEA 2200 were rubbish.

And of course as they say, good HF installation and use is more art than science.

That is what people don't understand.

Most criticism of HF is not a system problem but a people problem.

Like the famous incident when a know nothing race committee mandated a 2 meg sked at noon to a land station 600 miles way in August (high solar activity month)

As one long time navigator said at the time, "we would have more luck standing on the back of the boat and yelling at them".

And for GMDSS you assume the nearby vessel has it.

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9 minutes ago, lydia said:

Actually, some of us still use Wagners and even better Codans.

They were built to a different standard to the lesser standard that is used now.

I do have a ICOM and give me the Codan any day.

But agree the SEA 2200 were rubbish.

And of course as they say, good HF installation and use is more art than science.

That is what people don't understand.

Like the famous incident when a know nothing race committee mandated a 2 meg sked at noon to a land station 600 miles way in August (high solar activity month)

As one long time navigator said at the time, "we would have more luck standing on the back of the boat and yelling at them".

And for GMDSS you assume the nearby vessel has it.

In Europe and the US, everyone has it, it's not a new thing. If fitted, mandatory DSC capable VHF's at the minimum on new vessels since 1999.

Dunno why AU hasn't done the same.

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1 hour ago, Abbo said:

I get it, the clock is ticking on HF. Don't get me wrong, I hate the bloody things and have spent a lot more time than most trying to get the damn things to work and get the boat past safety in the days leading up to a race. Sooner they are gone the better. 

I am well aware that the SI's don't mandate monitoring the HF and have not for quite some time. But that doesn't make it right. If we are serious about safety it should be mandatory and until such times as a superior technology arrives it should remain. Currently, there is nothing better than broadcast HF for alerting and managing a live rescue situation. Other technologies have their benefits sure but none can compete with the speed of response and meaningful communication of HF.

I cannot begin to describe how comforting it is to hear a voice reply immediately to your mayday and say "copy your mayday and position, we are 10 miles due east of you and proceeding at best speed to your position" when you are 70 miles out to sea, no other vessels in sight and knee deep in water with a bucket in your hands.

There is a better technology that has been available for quite some time, it is called SAT-C and forms part of the Global Maritime Distress and Safety System. It is monitored by commercial shipping, unlike MF/HF which is only monitored via DSC.

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Just now, charisma94 said:

In Europe and the US, everyone has it, it's not a new thing. If fitted, mandatory DSC capable VHF's at the minimum on new vessels since 1999.

Dunno why AU hasn't done the same.

And there is the problem, as much of the coastline we do not have the rescue assets available in a serviceable time.

Too much coastline and not enough people.

Assistance will be locally based outside the major centres.

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2 minutes ago, charisma94 said:

In Europe and the US, everyone has it, it's not a new thing. If fitted, mandatory DSC capable VHF's at the minimum on new vessels since 1999.

Dunno why AU hasn't done the same.

Australia did, back in 2013.

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1 minute ago, MelbourneA31 said:

There is a better technology that has been available for quite some time, it is called SAT-C and forms part of the Global Maritime Distress and Safety System. It is monitored by commercial shipping, unlike MF/HF which is only monitored via DSC.

Agree completely and Australia has being slow on the uptake for domestic vessels.

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Just now, lydia said:

And there is the problem, as much of the coastline we do not have the rescue assets available in a serviceable time.

Too much coastline and not enough people.

Assistance will be locally based outside the major centres.

So you rely on ships nearby to assist... like they do on open ocean.

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1 minute ago, lydia said:

Agree completely and Australia has being slow on the uptake for domestic vessels.

The preamble to the communications requirements section of the Special Regs back in 2013 included terminology that was designed to encourage Race Committees to look at new communications technologies and hopefully avoid constant re-writes of the Special Regs every time a new technology came along. Sadly, (influential) clubs such as the CYCA are tied to the findings of the '98 Hobart Race Enquiry and are not interested in moving forward.

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My normal cruising grounds, any assistance will almost be certainly someone I know save for one chopper that can't fly over water at night or a police boat that happens to be on patrol in the area that day that might be once a month. At best it is a 6 hour steam if they are up town.

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6 minutes ago, MelbourneA31 said:

The preamble to the communications requirements section of the Special Regs back in 2013 included terminology that was designed to encourage Race Committees to look at new communications technologies and hopefully avoid constant re-writes of the Special Regs every time a new technology came along. Sadly, (influential) clubs such as the CYCA are tied to the findings of the '98 Hobart Race Enquiry and are not interested in moving forward.

Agree, shit even Australian Sailing can't get their shit together to give the clubs software or app to run yacht races through DSC group calls.

I just figure they don't understand it and most RC have no idea about it.

Only maybe 2 ocean races in Australia go outside VHF range and all cat 3 and 4 would be in range.

Never have to do a sked again!

Dr google tells me that a least a few clubs in the UK have embraced the technology in this way.

As saying something and doing nothing!

 

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14 minutes ago, charisma94 said:

So you rely on ships nearby to assist... like they do on open ocean.

C, I should also say that not all states have invested the same in the VHF networks so coverage varies.

Ironically the state with the best coverage now is the one you would not expect but that is part through the efforts of a private radio group running the network and installing repeaters.

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2 hours ago, Abbo said:

 

I cannot begin to describe how comforting it is to hear a voice reply immediately to your mayday and say "copy your mayday and position, we are 10 miles due east of you and proceeding at best speed to your position" when you are 70 miles out to sea, no other vessels in sight and knee deep in water with a bucket in your hands.

VHF would work just as well in that example ;)

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21 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

VHF would work just as well in that example ;)

It would actually work better.

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1 hour ago, lydia said:

C, I should also say that not all states have invested the same in the VHF networks so coverage varies.

Ironically the state with the best coverage now is the one you would not expect but that is part through the efforts of a private radio group running the network and installing repeaters.

Assume you are talking about us lucky folks down here in Tas re VHF network.  I'm pretty close to this and it is a joint effort between Tas Maritme Radio and the State Govt marine safety agency who pretty much pay for it all as a volunteer organisation could not afford the infrastructure and maintenance cots (how much does a helicopter cost to charter per hour to get Maatsuyker....   Lots..). TMR do a fantastic job running day to day operations and have been the recipient of very generous equipment donations from redundant emergency services/telstra radio networks and access have access to private landline comms networks courtesy of one of our electricity suppliers and have very dedicated and skilled technical people and operators - you could not buy that! 

We don't push the repeaters any more but place more emphasis on the statewide controllable VHF base station network (multichannel base stations - listen/announce on Ch16 and then go to working channel).  The coverage is pretty much all around the coast and up to 60nm to sea in some places + inland lakes all monitored 24/7 by a central control room in Hobart.  The Flinders Island base covers a significant part eastern Bass Strait and the NE tip of Tas down to St Helens. Sort makes HF redundant for the vessels under our jurisdiction, but contrary to statements earlier, HF is not being phased out, it is the monitoring of distress frequencies is planned to cease due to cost and distinct lack of use (for distress).  In Tas there has only been a couple of distress calls received in the last 15 years and one of those was from NZ - so zero here in many years.  Even if distress monitoring is ceased, Tas will still do it as the volunteers want to and all the equipment is all in place and the receiving site is in one of the best radio locations in Aust in terms of interference from nearby RF sources with little overhead to monitor (distinctly different to other states).  Some of the higher HF distress frequencies are not monitored at night due to interference from SE Asia etc making hearing a genuine distress calls difficult.

HF is not mandated by any state maritime safety authority as part of safety equipment requirements for recreational vessels -  States used to mandate for certain commercial vessel operations and AMSA does that role now, but that will change no doubt. 

Things have changed in the last 20 years making HF less relevant for most with the introduction of 406MHz  EPIRBs with GPS, VHF is now very affordable (was relatively expensive at one stage with 27Mhz (god forbid) the norm for some) with significant investment in coastal VHF networks, AIS, DCS etc and although not recommended, the mobile network provides significant coverage in some areas.

S2H or any other race organisers can still mandate HF if they want as they normally provide a monitoring service (radio relay ship & RYCT etc) and can/do operate independently of state paid monitoring services by private providers (e.g. Kordia$$$).

Being an HF aficionado from way back (grey funnel line - nothing like the keeping the fleet HF broadcast in sync that is emanating from Aus when on the west coast of the US..) it is no longer a useful communications medium but may be for some who need it when used with DSC etc.

 

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3 hours ago, MelbourneA31 said:

There is a better technology that has been available for quite some time, it is called SAT-C and forms part of the Global Maritime Distress and Safety System. It is monitored by commercial shipping, unlike MF/HF which is only monitored via DSC.

Except it can't broadcast and costs more than an HF. Apart from that it's much better.

Slaps forehead.

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One for the NSW guys........

In rough weather, early in the morning of 24 May, about 40 containers were lost overboard from the Singapore-flagged container ship APL England. 

The incident with the APL England happened just after 6.10am AEST on Sunday 24 May when the ship experienced a temporary loss of propulsion during heavy seas about 73 km south east of Sydney.  

At the time, the ship was on a journey from Ningbo, China to Melbourne, Australia. 

The ship’s power was restored within a few minutes but during this time the ship reported that it was rolling heavily, causing container stacks to collapse and 40 containers to fall overboard in waters about two kilometres deep. 

An additional 74 containers have been damaged and remain collapsed on the deck of the ship, while a further six containers are reported to be protruding from starboard side and three containers from the port side of the ship. 

The ship has turned around and is now heading to Brisbane, Queensland. AMSA will inspect the ship upon its arrival. 

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau has been notified and has confirmed it will investigate the incident.

https://www.amsa.gov.au/news-community/news-and-media-releases/apl-england-shipping-container-loss-new-south-wales-update-1

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2 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

VHF would work just as well in that example ;)

Perhaps, but if there was a decent swell running and some rain around you would want to be lucky, and at 15 miles forget it. If you are using the mandatory A.S. masthead VHF antenna you are lucky to get 10 miles in a glass out. Whichever idiot wrote that rule didn't take into account the fact that by the time the signal travels to the top of the mast you have already lost between 50 and 75% of your transmit power and vice versa receiving. Only way around that is to use very expensive, larger diameter and heavier cable, which of course nobody does except cruisers. Far better off with a 6 foot fibreglass whip at deck level.

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If your criteria for mandating safety equipment be carried is that it is a good idea or you can come up with scenarios where it is beneficial we wouldn't be able get off the dock. We now carry yellow brick trackers so everyone knows where we are, our speed and heading you can even send a message on them, we have epirbs, PLB's AIS, DSC equipped VHF, personal AIS and sat phones, despite its broadcast ability, I think we are now well and truly covered without HF. 

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Is it mandatory for racing yachts to have their VHF's DSC features fully functional? By which I mean not only is the VHF set DSC equipped but it's actually receiving a GPS position to pass on. I've been on plenty that are not, it's almost refreshing to step aboard one that is.

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46 minutes ago, Abbo said:

Perhaps, but if there was a decent swell running and some rain around you would want to be lucky, and at 15 miles forget it. If you are using the mandatory A.S. masthead VHF antenna you are lucky to get 10 miles in a glass out. Whichever idiot wrote that rule didn't take into account the fact that by the time the signal travels to the top of the mast you have already lost between 50 and 75% of your transmit power and vice versa receiving. Only way around that is to use very expensive, larger diameter and heavier cable, which of course nobody does except cruisers. Far better off with a 6 foot fibreglass whip at deck level.

Sounds like a niche opportunity for a fibre cable Abbo, would be interesting to see what sort of range a no loss link would be like, would weigh less than a kg for a 40'. The cable itself is dirt cheap and pretty robust. I'll have a look for the optical widgets, the freq bands are commonplace in commercial fibre optics.   

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54 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

An additional 74 containers have been damaged and remain collapsed on the deck of the ship, while a further six containers are reported to be protruding from starboard side and three containers from the port side of the ship. 

22c22118f15e64f306c5d35fc415411169bd0ee6

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22 minutes ago, Abbo said:

Is it mandatory for racing yachts to have their VHF's DSC features fully functional? By which I mean not only is the VHF set DSC equipped but it's actually receiving a GPS position to pass on. I've been on plenty that are not, it's almost refreshing to step aboard one that is.

Yes
 

3.25.1

(c) Where permanently installed, DSC HF/VHF transceivers shall be programmed with an assigned MMSI (unique to the boat), and where there is permanently installed GPS, be connected to a GPS receiver, and be capable of making distress alert calls as well as sending and receiving a DSC position report with another DSC equipped station. Periodically a test call should be made to AMSA which should be automatically acknowledged.

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3 minutes ago, Mid said:

22c22118f15e64f306c5d35fc415411169bd0ee6

And they're currently headed back to Brisbane. They'll leave a snail trail the length of the coastline looking at that. 

Sigh....

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37 minutes ago, Abbo said:

Is it mandatory for racing yachts to have their VHF's DSC features fully functional? By which I mean not only is the VHF set DSC equipped but it's actually receiving a GPS position to pass on. I've been on plenty that are not, it's almost refreshing to step aboard one that is.

Really? That's kinda weird, why would you have a VHF DSC with no GPS? I run a normal Furuno GPS as primary for the VHF DSC, and then a backup NKE GPS via: the NMEA bus. It sounds backwards, but the Furuno is panel mounted so you just have to look at to make sure it's working, the NKE is out of site hence its relegated as the backup.   

Edit: sorry, I just answered my own question. Just because you have a DSC unit doesn't mean you have to get a MMSI. Blond moment. 

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1 hour ago, spirit28 said:

Assume you are talking about us lucky folks down here in Tas re VHF network.  I'm pretty close to this and it is a joint effort between Tas Maritme Radio and the State Govt marine safety agency who pretty much pay for it all as a volunteer organisation could not afford the infrastructure and maintenance cots (how much does a helicopter cost to charter per hour to get Maatsuyker....   Lots..). TMR do a fantastic job running day to day operations and have been the recipient of very generous equipment donations from redundant emergency services/telstra radio networks and access have access to private landline comms networks courtesy of one of our electricity suppliers and have very dedicated and skilled technical people and operators - you could not buy that! 

We don't push the repeaters any more but place more emphasis on the statewide controllable VHF base station network (multichannel base stations - listen/announce on Ch16 and then go to working channel).  The coverage is pretty much all around the coast and up to 60nm to sea in some places + inland lakes all monitored 24/7 by a central control room in Hobart.  The Flinders Island base covers a significant part eastern Bass Strait and the NE tip of Tas down to St Helens. Sort makes HF redundant for the vessels under our jurisdiction, but contrary to statements earlier, HF is not being phased out, it is the monitoring of distress frequencies is planned to cease due to cost and distinct lack of use (for distress).  In Tas there has only been a couple of distress calls received in the last 15 years and one of those was from NZ - so zero here in many years.  Even if distress monitoring is ceased, Tas will still do it as the volunteers want to and all the equipment is all in place and the receiving site is in one of the best radio locations in Aust in terms of interference from nearby RF sources with little overhead to monitor (distinctly different to other states).  Some of the higher HF distress frequencies are not monitored at night due to interference from SE Asia etc making hearing a genuine distress calls difficult.

HF is not mandated by any state maritime safety authority as part of safety equipment requirements for recreational vessels -  States used to mandate for certain commercial vessel operations and AMSA does that role now, but that will change no doubt. 

Things have changed in the last 20 years making HF less relevant for most with the introduction of 406MHz  EPIRBs with GPS, VHF is now very affordable (was relatively expensive at one stage with 27Mhz (god forbid) the norm for some) with significant investment in coastal VHF networks, AIS, DCS etc and although not recommended, the mobile network provides significant coverage in some areas.

S2H or any other race organisers can still mandate HF if they want as they normally provide a monitoring service (radio relay ship & RYCT etc) and can/do operate independently of state paid monitoring services by private providers (e.g. Kordia$$$).

Being an HF aficionado from way back (grey funnel line - nothing like the keeping the fleet HF broadcast in sync that is emanating from Aus when on the west coast of the US..) it is no longer a useful communications medium but may be for some who need it when used with DSC etc.

 

RG 590 standing by!

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19 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

Sounds like a niche opportunity for a fibre cable Abbo, would be interesting to see what sort of range a no loss link would be like, would weigh less than a kg for a 40'. The cable itself is dirt cheap and pretty robust. I'll have a look for the optical widgets, the freq bands are commonplace in commercial fibre optics.   

I skippered a 60 foot semi-custom cat many moons ago that was a new build.  Close to an unlimited budget so it had a full Furuno setup including a Class A AIS which were as dear as poison back in in 2005. The antenna was a 600mm fibreglass whip mounted at the top of the rig. The feeder cable was LMR 400, which is 10mm in diameter and weighs 1.1kgs per 10 metres, the rig was 26m so I guess the run was about 30m.  I could pick up ships 45 miles off Point Danger from the hardstand at Coomera! Slight overkill for a coastal cruiser but when the man says I want the best who are we to deny him?

There are definitely lots of alternatives in co-axial that are much lower loss but there is always a weight or expense penalty. A good rule of thumb is if the cable came with the antenna then throw it in the bin, it's rubbish. Most of the good marine electronics guys stock good quality low loss co-ax for VHF.  Riggers tend to supply the lightest if you catch my drift. I had a rigger supply a brand new cable and masthead antenna that I fitted to a Farr 40 once and we almost got thrown out of the Gladstone race for failing to radio in at the entrance to the harbour. Luckily someone relayed for us and I managed to get out shortly after on the hand held. I fitted a 6ft whip to the stern and left the masthead one disconnected. There is no rule specifically saying you have to USE the masthead antenna, it just has to be fitted. Next Gladstone we were complimented on having the best VHF in the fleet.

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47 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

Yes
 

3.25.1

(c) Where permanently installed, DSC HF/VHF transceivers shall be programmed with an assigned MMSI (unique to the boat), and where there is permanently installed GPS, be connected to a GPS receiver, and be capable of making distress alert calls as well as sending and receiving a DSC position report with another DSC equipped station. Periodically a test call should be made to AMSA which should be automatically acknowledged.

Good. So it should be.

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2 hours ago, Abbo said:

Except it can't broadcast and costs more than an HF. Apart from that it's much better.

Slaps forehead.

Please define "it can't broadcast".

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1 hour ago, Rawhide said:

If your criteria for mandating safety equipment be carried is that it is a good idea or you can come up with scenarios where it is beneficial we wouldn't be able get off the dock. We now carry yellow brick trackers so everyone knows where we are, our speed and heading you can even send a message on them, we have epirbs, PLB's AIS, DSC equipped VHF, personal AIS and sat phones, despite its broadcast ability, I think we are now well and truly covered without HF. 

Correct

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30 minutes ago, Abbo said:

The feeder cable was LMR 400, which is 10mm in diameter and weighs 1.1kgs per 10 metres, the rig was 26m so I guess the run was about 30m.  I could pick up ships 45 miles off Point Danger from the hardstand at Coomera! Slight overkill for a coastal cruiser but when the man says I want the best who are we to deny him?

I used to work for the Aus disty that imported a cable mob called Belden. Their 1/2” 50 ohm coax was expensive and heavy  but with quality to die for, from memory it was about 1db loss for 30m at VHF freq. 
We even carried proper 50 ohm connectors, unlike the modern crap which is nearly all rebadged 75 ohm, different times now.

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15 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

No point requiring DSC if it’s without an MMSI and GPS.

No shit. But there is plenty out there regardless.

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And you kids get those satphones off my lawn!

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Recap:

Get a VHF on a 6' whipstaff and talk all over Tasmania. Excellent efforts going on there, which gives us hope that with the right people great things can be done.

Forget HF - no one is listening anyway......... 

GMDSS is the way forward - but make sure your DCS has an MMSI and GPS link.

Shaggy, go sort an optical in mast solution for race yachts (and you'll earn enough dough to have your Day in Court with RQYS with whatever Legal Counsel you choose).

How stuck in the sand the CYCA have their heads with respect to updating 20+ year old findings that were established with good intentions, that have now become practically burdensome and inflexible in current contexts.

Summary:

This last page just highlights what a Sterling job Australian Sailing is doing to regulate and financially cripple our sport to death, with little actual positive practical outcomes.

I swear there's a theme emerging in this thread..........

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Tasmania is a the clear winner.

And you even get your own local call sign!

And they run great skeds every day.

Best $35.00 I spend every year to be a member.

See I don't mind paying if it is value but AS want me to pay all this money for things that are not value.

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On 4/2/2020 at 11:12 AM, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Gee you really are a GRUBBY LYING CUNT.

Haven't seen Mrs Cockbreath around for a few weeks. Did it get binned?

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Caught by a Greek fisherman and pounded on a rock to tenderise.

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2 hours ago, lydia said:

And you even get your own local call sign!

 

1F9D21F5-6964-4E69-87CE-53FD498D8B0C.jpeg

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Jas, what is most disturbing is that you immediately thought of that movie poster!

Big Daddy!

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1 hour ago, DtM said:

Caught by a Greek fisherman and pounded on a rock to tenderise.

Does "pounded" mean....?????

No, forget it. I don't think I want to know.

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20 hours ago, Mid said:

 

So they parked it at the fairway & surveyors boarded to assess “if & how they might” bring it into Brisbane! They sent the jet out twice & it was “escorted” to the fairway. 
 

What’s the alternative AMSA? Leave it out there so it can drop some more boxes right on the busiest fucking spot? 

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39 minutes ago, Black Sox said:

Does "pounded" mean....?????

No, forget it. I don't think I want to know.

either way will achieve the end of ridding LB of the Octo woman

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5 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Haven't seen Mrs Cockbreath around for a few weeks. Did it get binned?

Overcooked and cast aside in favour of prawns on Masterchef last night.

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17 minutes ago, (p)Irate said:

Overcooked and cast aside in favour of prawns on Masterchef last night.

Makes sense, they're nothing but a life support mechanism for a dirty great orifice. 

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3 hours ago, lydia said:

Jas, what is most disturbing is that you immediately thought of that movie poster!

Big Daddy!

If the shoe hat fits!

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On 5/21/2020 at 3:02 PM, snoopy said:

and this. Hopefully they will come up with a better way of implementing this instead of punitive measures against owners.  

Rule 46 change update

PUBLISHED THU 21 MAY 2020

With sailing clubs around Australia focused on attempting to restart operations as COVID-19 restrictions begin to lift, Australian Sailing has made the decision to delay the implementation of the change to Rule 46 until 1 January 2022.

This will give affiliated clubs an extra twelve months to prepare for the changes and allows them to focus on restarting sailing and club house operations in the second half of 2020.

“There is nothing more important to sailing in Australia than the strength of our clubs, and this pandemic has inflicted a great amount of pain on many of them,” said Australian Sailing CEO Ben Houston. “Clubs have had profits, staff and operations slashed in the past few months, and it will be a long road back for many of them.”

“We appreciate that there will be some administrative work in making the changes a reality at some clubs, so the extra time will enable them to focus on their own health and sustainability at the back end of this year whilst those resources are still limited.” he went on to say. 

Australian Sailing is focused on doing whatever can be done to help clubs restart racing and bringing their members back into the club houses and their boats.

The extra year to implement the rule change alleviates the time pressure to consider their own casual or introductory membership policies and make subsequent constitutional or bylaw and system changes to enable that. They will also have more time to express their position on casual or introductory memberships in their race documents and communications.

Though delayed for a year in its implementation in the rules, the policy position around requiring membership to help clubs improve their safety framework and realise membership opportunities has not changed. Australian Sailing recommends any club that has the capacity to implement casual or introductory memberships using SailPass ahead of the implementation date should still do so.

The SailPass technology has been developed by Australian Sailing for clubs to use to assist with the implementation of the changes to Rule 46. SailPass allows clubs to set up and set their own pricing for temporary memberships, with 100% of the proceeds from those memberships going directly back to the club.

Australian Sailing is continuing to develop how revolutioniseSPORT database (the system that issues a SailPass temporary membership) can integrate with different club systems, with the intention to make the user experience as seamless as possible and to reduce administration for Clubs.

Read more about the change to rule 46 at https://www.sailing.org.au/news/faq-changes-to-rule-46/ and about SailPass at https://www.sailingresources.org.au/sailpass-home/.

For help getting your club set up with SailPass please contact your local Regional Manager

If SA are going to give clubs another 12 months to implement this the question arises Is it really that important if it can wait 12 months?

No.

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On 5/25/2020 at 8:12 PM, shaggybaxter said:

One for the NSW guys........

In rough weather, early in the morning of 24 May, about 40 containers were lost overboard from the Singapore-flagged container ship APL England. 

 

News reports of masses of soggy medical masks washing up on NSW beaches

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Surely if they have postponed Rule 46 by one year, this is tacit admission of how damaging such a measure will be to the sport as a whole?

Surely this measure can be dumped in favour of steps that actually encourage participation, thereby increasing foot traffic through clubs, their associated bars, restaurants and chandleries?

No one likes a ghost town atmosphere in any club......

Wake the Fuck Up Australian Sailing. Someone there must have a Brain and not just a Calculator.

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^^^^^^^^

Fuck, I am sorry for being so wrong about the post above.

It is not Tacit admission by Australian Sailing that Rule 46 will massively contribute to the accelerated decline in Sailing participation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No its not tacit......

It's a Fucking Overt admission, that they are mismanaging our sport.

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There is nothing more important to sailing in Australia than the strength of our clubs

 

 

 

WRONG!

 

 

 

 

 

it is the individuals who choose to engage with those organisations or not!

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12 minutes ago, lydia said:

There is nothing more important to sailing in Australia than the strength of our clubs

WRONG!

it is the individuals who choose to engage with those organisations or not!

image.png.1d4883ff35a3acfd6073e67ed215c9f9.png

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17 hours ago, astro said:

image.png.1d4883ff35a3acfd6073e67ed215c9f9.png

I don't think he is splitting hairs at all... it is equally important to consider whether sailors are feeling disenfranchised from the sailing clubs just as much as whether they are feeling let down by the governing body... it about the sailors, not the clubs

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JFC.

21 pages of whining and the CIRCLE  JERK continues.

If Australian Sailing is doing such a shithouse job then stop giving them money.

STOP RACING AT YOUR LOCAL CLUB.

If there really is so many pissed off racing sailors who want to race, then its going to be ""EASY AS" to meet up on the weekend out on the water an organize a race.

But we don't see this happening.

They must be doing something right.

The reality is sailing is a dying sport.

And some of the older stalwarts are bitter and twisted.

Especially the vertically challenged ones. BWAHAHA

The increasing complexity of life,  gets in the way of annual commitments to expensive pass times.

 Most boat owners in Australia aren't members of clubs. Cruising anchorages and marinas are as busy as ever.

For very good reasons.

Clubs are full of wankers.

Some even abuse volunteers. 

The quickest way  to kill off any enjoyment you may get from a chosen sport  is to get on a committee. 

In no time at all, the membership will be explaining how the committee has got it all wrong , and offering free character

assessments. :)

 

Without the clubs Australian Sailing is CACTUS. 

Time to stop blaming Australian Sailing. 

YACHT CLUBS are the problem.

PS 

For all the money, clubs throw at child minding ( little tackers etc) , racing numbers continue to decline, yet boat

park space gets harder to find. WTF.

 

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6 hours ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

JFC.

21 pages of whining and the CIRCLE  JERK continues.

If Australian Sailing is doing such a shithouse job then stop giving them money.

STOP RACING AT YOUR LOCAL CLUB.

If there really is so many pissed off racing sailors who want to race, then its going to be ""EASY AS" to meet up on the weekend out on the water an organize a race.

But we don't see this happening.

They must be doing something right.

The reality is sailing is a dying sport.

And some of the older stalwarts are bitter and twisted.

Especially the vertically challenged ones. BWAHAHA

The increasing complexity of life,  gets in the way of annual commitments to expensive pass times.

 Most boat owners in Australia aren't members of clubs. Cruising anchorages and marinas are as busy as ever.

For very good reasons.

Clubs are full of wankers.

Some even abuse volunteers. 

The quickest way  to kill off any enjoyment you may get from a chosen sport  is to get on a committee. 

In no time at all, the membership will be explaining how the committee has got it all wrong , and offering free character

assessments. :)

 

Without the clubs Australian Sailing is CACTUS. 

Time to stop blaming Australian Sailing. 

YACHT CLUBS are the problem.

PS 

For all the money, clubs throw at child minding ( little tackers etc) , racing numbers continue to decline, yet boat

park space gets harder to find. WTF.

 

You're back!  Hooray.

And with such wisdom for the rest of us dummies!  Thanks awfully.

Oh, and that would be "pastimes".

Mostly, yacht clubs aren't the problem - they THINK they must abide by AS rules - they are told so by AS.  So it does come back to AS.

Of course, if clubs started to realise that AS doesn't actually own or control  the sport of sailing in Australia, reform might actually happen - perhaps (*gasp*) for the benefit of the sport and its participants.

You there grs?

 

 

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Benefit of participants, there is a novel concept.

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