winchfodder

World Sailing in the Red. Where has all the money gone?

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Please find their accounts and tell us.

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See Post #9.

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5 hours ago, winchfodder said:

Is the cost of the World Sailihg tv show in the annual accounts?

I think it was like $800k per year when they signed the contract.  It's in the docs somewhere.

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16 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I think it was like $800k per year when they signed the contract.  It's in the docs somewhere.

Wow! For a technically bankrupt organisation I don't really see why a sailing organisation can be justifying this amount to promote the sport compared with encouraging grass root and youth sailing - how much do they put into that? - or do they just leave that to the member authorities. The content of the shows seems very elitist as well. Was there any debate on continuing with the show at this years meeting considering the dire finances?

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On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 9:16 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

I think it was like $800k per year when they signed the contract.  It's in the docs somewhere.

Well, last year they received $1.4million for "Special Events" revenue. This includes SailGP, World Match Racing Tour, Star Sailors League, PWA World Tour and the Global Kitesports Associations freestyle world tours. I am sure those folks are expecting value for their money. My guess is TV is part of that.

I am not defending WS, just pointing some things out.

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I guess since they own the word "world", they get money for any world championship?

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On 11/7/2019 at 1:53 PM, Wavedancer II said:

Who was 'supervising' Andy Hunt while he was loosing all this money?

Someone else should be held accountable!

 

Lo and behold, Kim Andersen and WS Perry appear to be most responsible. Here is a link to the latest directors' and financial report:

https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/SP5b2018WorldSailingUKLimitedAccounts-[25637].pdf

 

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On 11/12/2019 at 9:48 PM, torrid said:

I guess since they own the word "world", they get money for any world championship?

You guess wrong.

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On 11/12/2019 at 9:08 AM, winchfodder said:

For a technically bankrupt organisation 

"Technically bankrupt" is exactly what they are not. No such thing under UK company law. The word is "involvent" when a company cannot pay its debts. WS can pay its debts, provided someone lends them the money. Actually huge numbers of UK companies continue to trade when they cannot pay their debts, even though they shouldn't.  Nothing tends to happen until a bank pulls the plug. I have had an education in this process from the creditor viewpoint, twice now.

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/involvent/insolvent/
My vague understanding is that in the UK provided a company can still service its debts and get loans so there's a sensible prospect of recovery then its not illegal to continue to trade.

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On November 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM, Wavedancer II said:

Lo and behold, Kim Andersen and WS Perry appear to be most responsible. Here is a link to the latest directors' and financial report:

https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/SP5b2018WorldSailingUKLimitedAccounts-[25637].pdf

 

These are the financials for WS UK which is subsidiary of WS. Their business is the provision of administrative and technical services for their parent (WS). It would appear this entity is used to flow money for employee remuneration, and some other stuff. The only Director that gets paid is the CEO. My guess is it is done this way as the employees will be UK citizens and need to be paid by a UK company (is there a UK accountant in the house?). 

Anyway. WS has always lived off the Olympic revenue. They got themselves in a spot of bother this time but nobody is suing them and they will get out of it. If every entity (or government...) that spent more money than they earned were deemed bankrupt or insolvent, the world economy would have collapsed as soon as banks were invented. WS may be guilty of some poor management and decisions, but even that would be subjective.

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20 hours ago, JimC said:

/involvent/insolvent/
My vague understanding is that in the UK provided a company can still service its debts and get loans so there's a sensible prospect of recovery then its not illegal to continue to trade.

That is correct.

FWIW companies that are potentially insolvent can also often secure a "Creditors Voluntary Agreement" (CVA) so that creditors get paid so many pence in the pound and the company keeps trading. In practice it is the bank(s) and HMRC (taxman) that decide this and small creditors just have to suck it up. Spoken from experience and with feeling. Some directors play the CVA card repeatedly which IMO should not be allowed. No suggestion WS is going this route. 

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21 hours ago, dogwatch said:

That is correct.

FWIW companies that are potentially insolvent can also often secure a "Creditors Voluntary Agreement" (CVA) so that creditors get paid so many pence in the pound and the company keeps trading. In practice it is the bank(s) and HMRC (taxman) that decide this and small creditors just have to suck it up. Spoken from experience and with feeling. Some directors play the CVA card repeatedly which IMO should not be allowed. No suggestion WS is going this route. 

Googling tells me there are no CVA’s in the Isle of Man. But there are options. Regardless, they aren’t going down. At least not yet.

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On 11/11/2019 at 4:16 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

I think it was like $800k per year when they signed the contract.  It's in the docs somewhere.

Looking at the content of the latest World Sailing TV show it is hard to see the justification for WS to spend $800k per year of member authority monies. Surely better spent on encouraging active participation such as youth sailing.

December World Sailing Show

Brest Atlantiques
Four huge Ultim Trimarans go head to head in brutal conditions for the first edition of the Brest Atlantiques Race. Skippered by some of the biggest names in world sailing the race takes the two-man crews from the French west coast to Brazil, then down to Cape Town and back up to the finish in Brest.

Aloha Classic
The PWA crown their new World Champions in the Wave discipline in Maui. Will 2019 see the end of a 20 year dominance by the Moreno twin sisters?

Transat Jacques Vabre
Fifty-nine boats lined up for the start of the 14th edition of the Transat Jacques Vabre, the longest and toughest double-handed transatlantic race. Three classes skippered by some of the world’s top oceanic sailors lined up at the start in le Havre, France.For many in the IMOCA class it’s a vital stepping stone on the campaign for the 2020 Vendee Globe.

iFoil
A new type of windsurf will be used at the Paris 2024 Olympic Games. The iFoil has been announced as the new class that will be contested in Marseilles, the sailing venue for Paris 2024.

Francis Joyon and IDEC Sport
French off-shore legend Francis Joyon has set himself four challenges in Asia. The 63-year-old has achieved his first – breaking his own speed record from Port St Louis in Brittany, France to Port St Louis, Mauritius aboard his 31.5 metre trimaran IDEC Sport.

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On 11/12/2019 at 2:34 PM, bill4 said:

Well, last year they received $1.4million for "Special Events" revenue. This includes SailGP, World Match Racing Tour, Star Sailors League, PWA World Tour and the Global Kitesports Associations freestyle world tours. I am sure those folks are expecting value for their money. My guess is TV is part of that.

I am not defending WS, just pointing some things out.

sounds like pretty normal business in most sports.  even crap tv shows are expensive to make.

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2 hours ago, winchfodder said:

Looking at the content of the latest World Sailing TV show it is hard to see the justification for WS to spend $800k per year of member authority monies. Surely better spent on encouraging active participation such as youth sailing.

No one asked you

Its not your money

They're definitely not 'technically bankrupt' (yet)

They do spend a lot of money on youth sailing (not as I would, but still)

 

If you're doing anything to improve the issue, let your community here know.  Otherwise, continue with your quest, fair knight.

Don+Quixote+by+Pablo+Picasso+-+Picture+F

 

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On 12/3/2019 at 4:08 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

No one asked you

Its not your money

They're definitely not 'technically bankrupt' (yet)

They do spend a lot of money on youth sailing (not as I would, but still)

 

If you're doing anything to improve the issue, let your community here know.  Otherwise, continue with your quest, fair knight.

Don+Quixote+by+Pablo+Picasso+-+Picture+F

 

Too true!

I don't recall hearing that any of my sailing friends have ever watched the World Sailing show.  So who does? Free to view on airline flights probably. Excellent target audience. Money well spent. 

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1 hour ago, winchfodder said:

Too true!

I don't recall hearing that any of my sailing friends have ever watched the World Sailing show.  So who does? Free to view on airline flights probably. Excellent target audience. Money well spent. 

Anecdotes are not data, regardless the online numbers are pretty dismal but it is not just on airplanes - it's also in some airports on the screens that no one watches.

And it's terrible.  Basically they redid Seamaster Sailing and it feels like the relic from the early 00s that it is.  So does world sailing for that matter.

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I question the sanity of a sailing community who gives absolute power of control to an organization That seems to spend all its money on some sort of mystery TV show almost none of the sailors has ever heard about much less seen and appreciated for its brilliance. 

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I must be in a minority, I quite like the World Sailing Show! I watch it regularly on YouTube. Yes it's a bit wooden but in my eyes it's better than nothing. Is it worth the money it costs to make, probably not, but I enjoy it.

Sailing on TV in the UK just doesn't exist. I think It is seen as to much of a minority elitist sport to warrant air time. We just seem to get soap operas, quiz shows & tons of crap reality stuff shoved down our throats.

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On 11/16/2019 at 1:56 AM, dogwatch said:

You guess wrong.

Not entirely wrong.

In order to host a world championship you either need to be a World Sailing designated international class and pay an annual fee for the privilege or.... (much more remunerative) , you can get special permission for a special event to designate it as a World event, which WS will charge you for and base their fee on the money involved. Its all tiny compared to the Olympic revenues but it is  nonetheless not entirely wrong that WS gets some money from world championships.

 

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17 minutes ago, Martin T said:

I must be in a minority, I quite like the World Sailing Show! I watch it regularly on YouTube. Yes it's a bit wooden but in my eyes it's better than nothing. Is it worth the money it costs to make, probably not, but I enjoy it.

Sailing on TV in the UK just doesn't exist. I think It is seen as to much of a minority elitist sport to warrant air time. We just seem to get soap operas, quiz shows & tons of crap reality stuff shoved down our throats.

"better than nothing'"isn't much of an endorsement.  

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25 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

"better than nothing'"isn't much of an endorsement.  

Maybe that's what his GF been telling him...

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Sailing is a participatory thing. It is not a form of entertainment for others. 
Sailing has been around for centuries. The game wasn’t built because people love to watch. The game won’t die if no one watches. 
Those who are tasked with organizing the game have absolutely ZERO reason to be wasting our resources on their misguided attempts to get more people to watch.

If a person  has time to watch sailing, that person ought to be sailing 

If a person is interested in sailing, our organizing bodies should be facilitating that person’s pathway to sailing. 

Fir the life of me I do not understand why ANY sailing Organizing authority AT ANY LEVEL, from those parents putting babies in Optis to The IYRU and its organization world championships, does ANYTHING other than gather and disseminate information about the game 

They all seem to think they should morph into publishing companies, policemen, religions, mafias, and everything but effective organization and promotional tools.

The ABSOLUTE ONLY REASON for the existence of any sailing authority to exist is the belief that organization will help improve the game it is established to organize. 
 

The least desirable and most essential reason to immediately dissolve any sailing organization would be when that organization is run by people who wish to be in charge. 

 

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9 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Those who are tasked with organizing the game have absolutely ZERO reason to be wasting our resources on their misguided attempts to get more people to watch.

 

What makes you think "our resources" are involved? From what sources do you think World Sailing derives its income and what do you think those sources want in return?

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I just found WS accounts on line for 2014-1017 (4 year cycle). Easily found.
Subscriptions 6%
Olympic     54%
Special Events  7%
Investment  1%
Other          32%
Other includes sponsorship and commercial. Its not split up in the 2014 and 2015 figures I saw.
So Olympics, special events and sponsorship/commercial is 93% of their income, so its probably not unreasonable that about 90% of their work is targeted towards those areas.  

ws1.jpg

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32% under other deserves further breakdown. And why isn't sponsorship in the totals? confusing.

In any case, there are standard metrics for overhead vs spend towards goals for non-profits. Does WS track these? Moving to an expensive city and hiring a star CEO usually tips the scales there. This is an observation, not a judgement: if the city is the right city and the CEO the right CEO, it can be the right thing to do.

However, like any big spend decision, it puts pressure to show positive outcomes.

(for the curious - https://www.google.com/search?q=nonprofit+overhead+percentage  ; it's a complex and somewhat controversial subject so you can spend hours reading...)

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4 hours ago, JimC said:

Other includes sponsorship and commercial. Its not split up in the 2014 and 2015 figures I saw.

3 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

32% under other deserves further breakdown. And why isn't sponsorship in the totals? confusing.

 

 

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6 hours ago, JimC said:

 

What is confusing, no confounding, is how WS spend the income largely coming from the Olympics. 

The Olympic money is a "thank you" to all the sailors from all over the world who aspire to and the few who actually compete in the Olympics, plus of course all the supporters of those sailors from family, friends, local companies, clubs, national authorities etc. 

So does WS spend this money wisely to promote, support and develop the sport from the grass roots upwards?

Seems that a large amount is wasted on an overblown management based in expensive offices backing up a hierarchy that runs up expenses flying around the world to meetings where they decide to dump large sums on TV programmes and other wacky ideas that hardly seem to help the sailors and the sport they are supposed to be supporting.. 

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3 hours ago, winchfodder said:

 

The Olympic money is a "thank you" to all the sailors from all over the world who aspire to and the few who actually compete in the Olympics, plus of course all the supporters of those sailors from family, friends, local companies, clubs, national authorities etc. 

 

Is it? I doubt the IOC views it as any such thing.

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20 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Is it? I doubt the IOC views it as any such thing.

Agree. No chance the IOC looks at it as anything other than simple dollars in.

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2 hours ago, bill4 said:

Agree. No chance the IOC looks at it as anything other than simple dollars in.

I wonder how other international sporting bodies spend the olympic windfall. 

Can anyone explain.

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World Sailing mission statement, explicitly includes development of sailing as a spectator sport.

 

https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/192616/World-Sailing-launches-new-strategic-positioning

 

Our mission:

To make sailing more exciting and accessible for everyone to participate or watch, and use our reach and influence to create a sustainable future for our sport and the waters of the world.

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1 hour ago, winchfodder said:

I wonder how other international sporting bodies spend the olympic windfall. 

Can anyone explain.

It would be astonishing if it were very different to World Sailing. The IOC don't give away money out of the goodness of their hearts.There are all sorts of regulations and requirements that must be expensively met. After all if a sport isn't doing its best to increase its TV audience, why the hell would you give them TV money?

One of the more naive criticisms of our national authority here in the UK is that they spend too much money on the olympic pathway and not enough on grassroots. The simple fact, though, is that the money spent on the Olympic stuff is ring fenced. The choice is not spending more or less on the grassroots. The choice is between taking the money to spend on the Olympics or not, with the same amount of money available to the grass roots in either case.

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