bigrpowr

Vendee Globe 2020

Recommended Posts

“I’m back sailing again! I’m super happy. It could so easily have been the end of the race for me”. 

https://twitter.com/ATRacing99/status/1330972000517574657?s=20

Quote

Just 48 hours after he unearthed structural damage to his HUGO BOSS boat – on day 13 of the Vendée Globe round-the-world yacht race – Alex Thomson has confirmed that he is sailing once again.

Thomson discovered damage to the bow area of his IMOCA yacht on Saturday evening UTC and, after alerting his team on shore, was forced to bring the boat to a stop while he carried out a complex repair at sea to reinforce the structure inside the boat.

With the help of his team, led by Design Manager Pete Hobson – together with naval architects, VPLP and structural engineers, Gurit – the 46-year-old skipper was able to stabilise HUGO BOSS, undertake the repairs, and has now begun sailing once again.

“I’ve got a sail up again!” Thomson said. “I’m sailing in the right direction and I’m back in the race. I’m super happy about that. It’s been a tough couple of days, an awful lot of work – cutting, grinding, sanding, gluing and there’s still a lot more to go. It’s certainly not over yet but the structure in the bow is now stable, it’s not moving any more and so I can sail in these moderate conditions, in the right direction. Happy days”.

Having led the fleet for much of the race prior to discovering the damage, the Brit has since dropped into fifth place, around 400nm behind the race leader, Frenchman Charlie Dalin. However, with the race only around a fifth of the way through, and more than 19,500 miles still to go, the opportunity to re-join the leaders is still very much alive. 

“It’s obviously disappointing but I’m not going to dwell on the negatives here because I think there are way more positives.”Thomson continued. “It’s positive that I found it before it was catastrophic, it’s positive that it happened in the conditions it happened in, which meant the leaders and the rest of the fleet weren’t moving away at 500 miles a day. So I’m just super happy that I’m still in the race. It could so easily have been the end of the race for me”.

Thomson won the hearts of fans around the world when, in the 2016-17 edition of the Vendée Globe, he finished in second place, despite suffering irreparable damage to his hydrofoil just 12 days into the race.

“I’ve been here before, and all you can do is get back on your feet and keep pushing forwards. I’ve probably still got a night and a half of work to do but, looking at the weather, the next few days are going to be quite light, so good conditions for me to finish the job”.

https://www.alexthomsonracing.com/the-hub/2020/11/23/alex-thomson-sailing-once-again-onboard-hugo-boss/

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, The Tug said:

The breakage is an engineering failure plain and simple. The boat has had no collision

Or you could say the skipper didn't back off when he should have. It is a competitive race boat. You are always treading the fine line between "too light" and "bulletproof"

Or it was a really big wave event that was outside of the design parameters.

Or there was a flaw in some part of the build that was not detectable to the naked eye.

 

The face flanges of the girder I was surprised they used a twill fabric as the final layer, and not a double bias.

Amazing amount of pre-laminated carbon plate to keep on hand.

The diagonal breaks in the long'l web are classic shear failure. 

image.thumb.png.1884f844cb49a5fb2ac6953be0d6f02c.png

And it was likely not a "gradual damage that increased" Carbon generally doesn't work that way. It holds, and holds, and then "bang"

Sure you could use E-glass as it is less stiff but it will be twice as heavy so the race team will say "no thanks"

Smarter to just use more carbon. Those flanges do look pretty thin. Maybe local tripping or a buckle failure? 

I'm just guessing; it's hard to get a good idea of how the entire structure is built

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question for the weather and routing gurus. 

Are the front 2 going to stretch ahead and jump a weather system or is the big breeze that is forecast in a few days going to sweep the b fleet up to the front? Looks really messy up ahead with the leaders sailing in more breeze at first but then wind filling in stronger south and west first??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Or there was a flaw in some part of the build that was not detectable to the naked eye.

Not implying anything done wrong by Carrington boats just general point re how nomex can be damaged; a child putting some wrinkles or dimpling on a sheet before lamination or a vacuum bag nipple that’s not flanged appropriately during the max pressure can leave some surface imperfections that can leave a weakness in the structure. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, oioi said:

Question for the weather and routing gurus. 

Are the front 2 going to stretch ahead and jump a weather system or is the big breeze that is forecast in a few days going to sweep the b fleet up to the front? Looks really messy up ahead with the leaders sailing in more breeze at first but then wind filling in stronger south and west first??

Best answer found from the gurus so far: "it's complicated." ;)

No kidding. 3 more days apparently of a messy high.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Raked Aft\\ said:

He's going for it!

 

Good to compare the text release and the live vid, though both were probably vetted.

Best part of the vid is the "I don't know what I'm doing"

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Raked Aft\\ said:

He's going for it!

 

I think he looks like he knows it's game over. 

 

He's super positive, incredibly so - really admirable. 

 

The way he's repeating the repair is not over, and "I can sail in these light conditions" leads me to believe it's a going to be a long, drawn out admission it's fucked

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting that a longitudinal web from hull to deck was used in HB’s structure. In aircraft engineering ring frames are used exclusively, as they allow flexibility to allow for expansion, contraction, due to altitude pressure changes, and buffering, landing loads. 
the rigidity of the web, on the other hand point loads the overall structure. I’m not surprised to see the web shearing, and failure of the unidirectional capping. The hull skin structure is flexing, with slamming, and sailing loads. So, makes sense the more rigid web will take the full load, or fail at the perforations, and across the shear panels. 
Making the web and caps stronger will lead to hull skin failure, by point loading the hull where the web meets the hull/deck surfaces. Hopefully the hull/deck structures are robust enough to take that increased load. 
Like an I beam, the web should be thinner than the top, bottom surfaces, and will buckle before the thicker tension/ compression plates fail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Icedtea said:

it's a going to be a long, drawn out admission it's fucked

yeah, yeah. And in 9 years . . . .

Wreck found after drifting for 9 years and 10,000 miles in the Southern Ocean is Alex Thomson’s Hugo Boss

 

Alex Thomson's Hugo Boss, abandoned in 2006 when the keel head broke, has been found 10,000 miles away after 9 years drifting in the Southern Ocean 

Screen-Shot-2016-02-22-at-18.05.00-copy.

These photos of the shipwrecked hull of Alex Thomson’s Hugo Boss were taken in February in Patagonia during a kayak expedition by Chilean adventurer Cristian Donoso. Donoso discovered the yacht nine years after Thomson abandoned the yacht in a last-minute rescue and over 10,000 nautical miles from where the yacht was last seen.

Thomson abandoned the boat 1,000 miles from Cape Town during the solo Velux 5 Oceans race and was rescued by Mike Golding in the Southern Indian Ocean in November 2006. The section of the canting keel head that to attached the rams snapped off so that the keel was swinging freely.

Read Mike Golding’s dramatic retelling of how he carried out the rescue and how it very nearly went wrong.

He and his team agreed that keel failure was imminent, and Mike Golding in Ecover returned into headwinds to make a dramatic and difficult rescue.

Alex Thomson's 2006 Hugo Boss

Alex Thomson’s 2006 Hugo Boss

The discovery nearly a decade later shows that the main part of the hull travelled over 10,000 nautical miles round the world on wind and currents to end up in a remote part of the Bernardo O’Higgins National Park in Chile. The hull would seem to have survived because the keel did, indeed, detach from the hull. The cockpit area has also broken off and the mast, deck hardware, standing and running rigging is all gone.

Stewart Hosford, managing director of Alex Thomson Racing says: “We could not believe it could go so far when we assumed it had sunk!  To date, we not been contacted by anyone, and it is owned by the insurance company, but of course if it needs to be removed or dealt with we will support that in whatever way we can and offer assistance.”

https://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/elaine-bunting/wreck-found-after-drifting-for-9-years-and-10000-miles-in-the-southern-ocean-is-alex-thomsons-hugo-boss-70470

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Unless he has a vacuum pump and bags any other repair technique is likely to be secondary bonding in execution only.  That cannot be considered to be stronger than original unfortunately .

I am glad he is so upbeat and completely confident that he will pull off some type of repair. 

As an aside. I once “repaired” (?) a broken Carbon fiber spinnaker pole with a Fire extinguisher, carbon battens and a banding tool.  Scary as fuck after.  

This damage is next level to the power of 10!

Using a vacuum bag doesn’t mean that you get a primary or chemical bond.  You can achieve that only if you bind something to something else within a certain time frame before the laminate you’re bonding to is fully cured.  You will get a chemical bond regardless of using a bag in this case, although a bag, if used properly, will give you around 15 psi of pressure on the bond.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, dolphinmaster said:

Right, why the fuk not put the carried weight of extra into the structure to begin with.

You do realize that the repair materials were not earmarked for that particular repair, right? 

Why not just put extra weight into every part of the boat to begin with and not carry any repair materials?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Idle speculation ahead:

-damage occurred during benign conditions

-engineers are confident he can build it back stronger than before and continue on to the Southern Ocean

This suggests that they aren't dealing with an unexpected/unknown load case.

I wouldn't be surprised if he over baked the luff tension on the MH zero and knew what happened the second he heard the bang.

That would explain why his team is confident in the boats ability to continue the race. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, jhc said:

Like an I beam, the web should be thinner than the top, bottom surfaces, and will buckle before the thicker tension/ compression plates fail.

Personally I think the next series of imoca foilers will have a scow bow and the center cockpit with no rear transition is here to stay. and With greater understanding of loads in hardest conditions, I wouldn’t be surprised if the bow to keel in the near future is going to become a small diameter pressure cylinder with crosstays and bolsters connecting it to the exterior hull like a submarine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Thread Killer said:

You do realize that the repair materials were not earmarked for that particular repair, right? 

Why not just put extra weight into every part of the boat to begin with and not carry any repair materials?

It’s not like  when you’re approaching the engineering of a composite structure that you’re expecting it to break.  It’s bad engineering to simply throw carbon or anything else for they matter at something and call it good.    Shit happens and you need to adjust, and it happens not just at the grand prize level either. When something does fail, usually the failure will clue you in to whatever part of the load case that wasn’t fully understood in the first place.    Glad he got it sorted.  He’s still in the game, and if he manages a win after all that then even sweeter for him.  The guy works his ass off... well they all do!   

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Personally I think the next series of imoca foilers will have a scow bow and with greater understanding of loads in hardest conditions, I wouldn’t be surprised if the bow to keel in the near future is going to become a small diameter pressure cylinder with crosstays and bolsters connecting it to the exterior hull like a submarine. 

i'm leaning the other way,

 the bow should be sharp and deep, like a tri amma.  That way the energy of hitting the water at speed is slowly dissipated, instead of a shock load landing.. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Alex is confident in the boats repairs, he will get a chance to test it this coming weekend as a low pressure system is approaching from the SW. If it passes the test of this moderate system, then the real test will come later as he gets deeper into the SO.

Escape points for him will be Cape Town/Port Elizabeth in SA, and later the southern ports of Australia and NZ. The real problem will be the SO section from NZ to Cape Horn, a long way between escape points there. I hope it all goes well, good luck Alex.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Icedtea said:

I think he looks like he knows it's game over. 

 

He's super positive, incredibly so - really admirable. 

 

The way he's repeating the repair is not over, and "I can sail in these light conditions" leads me to believe it's a going to be a long, drawn out admission it's fucked

That's a lot of wishful thinking on your part. 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, eliboat said:

It’s not like  when you’re approaching the engineering of a composite structure that you’re expecting it to break.  It’s bad engineering to simply throw carbon or anything else for they matter at something and call it good.    Shit happens and you need to adjust, and it happens not just at the grand prize level either. When something does fail, usually the failure will clue you in to whatever part of the load case that wasn’t fully understood in the first place.    Glad he got it sorted.  He’s still in the game, and if he manages a win after all that then even sweeter for him.  The guy works his ass off... well they all do!   

That second sentence was sarcastic, guess I should have made it purple...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Buck Turgidson said:

That's a lot of wishful thinking on your part. 

Maybe it is, I love the guy, I want him to finish. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those that think AT is toast and arguing about the fix seem to forget that he's not making decisions in a vacuum and that there is a team of highly skilled people who realize two things, a human life is in their area of responsibility and that human wants to race.  If they say he can put the hammer down and AT agrees then he'll bring it.

 

From anecdotal experience of watching experts repair something that cannot be quickly replaced but *is* needed, it will be repaired to handle more then what caused the original break (given you got no more stuff to fix another break).  I would accept they are re-enforcing the shit out of the bow and once all the girders, sheets, gluing and bolting is done, the rest of the boat may fall apart but that bow will stay in once piece.  then like AT, I'm an optimist.  As one who is cheering on Sam, AT and a few more I am hoping he takes up the challenge and works to reel the two in and the WX may help him close the gap.

 

Time will tell, great race...always informative forum.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Betcha the leadering pair took a peak up front when they heard the news. 

Weather gods smiled on AT, otherwise he could have easily lost 1000 or more miles to the leaders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Those that think AT is toast and arguing about the fix seem to forget that he's not making decisions in a vacuum and that there is a team of highly skilled people who realize two things, a human life is in their area of responsibility and that human wants to race.  If they say he can put the hammer down and AT agrees then he'll bring it.

Alex himself admits that he is skeptical that the repairs will be enough, but also adds that he doesn't know what he is doing and the experts that are guiding him are confident.

No-one here knows, anyone that claims they do is full of it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, stief said:

This doesn't look good

59296027_ScreenShot2020-11-23at3_10_04PM.png.af47149c007541f4ce95ac01ed3fd9de.png

and worse in 48 hrs. https://www.windy.com/pois?2020-11-25-18,-12.234,27.146,3,i:pressure,anmByh

Lots of repair time for anyone who wants it apparently

I'm telling you. Alex is one luck sod. By the time he's ready to rock he will go south and hook into the same pattern that the front two are aiming for but with about 100 fewer tacks/gybes. I can see them all being within 12 hours of each other by the cape. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Thread Killer said:

Alex himself admits that he is skeptical that the repairs will be enough, but also adds that he doesn't know what he is doing and the experts that are guiding him are confident.

No-one here knows, anyone that claims they do is full of it.

Quote where he's sceptical about the repairs please? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Varan said:

Betcha the leadering pair took a peak up front when they heard the news. 

Weather gods smiled on AT, otherwise he could have easily lost 1000 or more miles to the leaders.

Yeah, weather helped.  Cool to see  Dalin stretched out with another well-timed (more than luck?) gybe with Ruyant. They are hanging onto that tiny passage--barely. 

but Sam! Stuck!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Thread Killer said:

You do realize that the repair materials were not earmarked for that particular repair, right? 

Why not just put extra weight into every part of the boat to begin with and not carry any repair materials?

Every part of the boat didn't fail, only the part that was under engineered/built,  20 lbs of carbon randomly stored in the bilge or 20 lbs of extra carbon to begin with and possibly no failure. 20 = 20  unless you're our Presie,   .................  Yea yea yea, it's much more complicated than that yada, yada, yada.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Thread Killer said:

Alex himself admits that he is skeptical that the repairs will be enough, but also adds that he doesn't know what he is doing and the experts that are guiding him are confident.

No-one here knows, anyone that claims they do is full of it.

Typical self-deprecating British humour?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, stief said:

Yeah, weather helped.  Cool to see  Dalin stretched out with another well-timed (more than luck?) gybe with Ruyant. They are hanging onto that tiny passage--barely. 

but Sam! Stuck!

Probably well timed gybes, but I cannot help but wonder if Ruyant's trip up the mast was not 100% successful, limiting his sail choices, particularly masthead sails. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The laminate including core was what looked like up to 3 cm thick where it cracked, even more in other directions.

Furthermore: that was the underlying structure for the headsails. 

I'm very sorry, but that thing is not air-worthy anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, dolphinmaster said:

Every part of the boat didn't fail, only the part that was under engineered/built,  20 lbs of carbon randomly stored in the bilge or 20 lbs of extra carbon to begin with and possibly no failure. 20 = 20  unless you're our Presie,   .................  Yea yea yea, it's much more complicated than that yada, yada, yada.  

That was sarcasm, I even made it purple. What else do I need to do?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Thread Killer said:

That was sarcasm, I even made it purple. What else do I need to do?

It seems to be Sailing Anarchy tradition that every mistake or misunderstood sarcastic comment needs to be corrected at least three times before the thread can move on.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, stief said:

This doesn't look good

59296027_ScreenShot2020-11-23at3_10_04PM.png.af47149c007541f4ce95ac01ed3fd9de.png

and worse in 48 hrs. https://www.windy.com/pois?2020-11-25-18,-12.234,27.146,3,i:pressure,anmByh

Lots of repair time for anyone who wants it apparently

I think the next 8 hours are going to see a whole lot of people following the example set by the leaders and Burton and saying fuck this I’m heading south. 
I just can’t see a disadvantage in being the southern most boat in 48-72 hours time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Raked Aft\\ said:

i'm leaning the other way,

 the bow should be sharp and deep, like a tri amma.  That way the energy of hitting the water at speed is slowly dissipated, instead of a shock load landing.. 

NZ's new AC boat nose seems to be just that.... time will tell...... 
I'm enjoying this 2 boat tactics up the front.... such a narrow lane....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Thread Killer said:

That was sarcasm, I even made it purple. What else do I need to do?

Sit back, eat a bit a one of your islands, then thread a laser beam out to one of the lounging sharks and kill'em I guess.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, stief said:

Yeah, weather helped.  Cool to see  Dalin stretched out with another well-timed (more than luck?) gybe with Ruyant. They are hanging onto that tiny passage--barely. 

but Sam! Stuck!

Sail-World agrees thatRuyant was out maneuvered and Dalin seems happy about it.

vendee.jpg.633f3d5ed997f096d07a666560929b12.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the above mentioned article

Quote

Jérémie Beyou (Charal):

"We are doing well and you can hear the whistling of the foils as we go down this unconventional course. The weather gave me a choice: either do a long route out to the West, or the a course along the African coastline, which I went for. The African route is not technically easy, there are the passages under the islands, with the wind shadows. I found a good wind corridor last night and I have more than I expected. So I let the boat speak, which is magic. Now I am sailing never below 20 knots, its brilliant. There were a few sail changes to be done, particularly around the Canary Islands side where there were 30 knots, but these were straightforward and so not heavy going. I have now passed the Canaries, the sea has settled down and it nicer than the crossed seas we had yesterday.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

I just can’t see a disadvantage in being the southern most boat in 48-72 hours time

But . . .  the ice limit is really limiting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Varan said:

From the above mentioned article

Yup. Though, I wish mags like Sail World would link to their source https://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/news/20512/dalin-leads-thomson-on-course-pacing-herrmann-escoffier-in-light-winds . 

but then, I wish the VG writers would sign their pieces too ;) 

Anyway, watching the weather hoping there's a chance Beyou can beat Alex's record and start a shit storm over whether it's "official" :P Cammas thinks the to the equator conditions will be right for Gitana tomorrow.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, carcrash said:

False.

The green in the above image is core. To core keeps the inner and outer carbon skins at a precise distance apart, acting as the sheer web of an I beam. This beam consists of four surfaces, each using foam as the sheer web to keep the shape of those skins.

Carbon provides very close to zero compression strength unless the fibers are kept in the proper location. The epoxy and core keeps the carbon filaments in the precise location so they can absorb any compression load whatsoever.

Under tension, no core or even epoxy is required. At the ends of a cable, sure.

Small amounts of compression can be handled by a carbon sheet, but the amount is tiny unless the unsupported length is very small. As you can see from the above part, the distance that can be supported without core is dramatically less than the shorter dimensions of this part (height and width). If just the carbon was enough, this small part would not have core.

This shows how small a box section must be to work without core: very small, a few inches at most. To be stiff enough without core, many more layers of carbon are needed, making the structure heavy. Hence, any structure that needs to absorb compression (nearly anything that needs to keep a shape) that is larger than, say, a coffee cup, will be cored, will be curved quite a lot, or it will be too heavy.

Yeah, that’s why they cored my carbon mast and bow sprit...  oh wait, nope.

Uncored carbon shapes take plenty of compression without core.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, oioi said:

Question for the weather and routing gurus. 

Are the front 2 going to stretch ahead and jump a weather system or is the big breeze that is forecast in a few days going to sweep the b fleet up to the front? Looks really messy up ahead with the leaders sailing in more breeze at first but then wind filling in stronger south and west first??

Nope AFAIK, see my routing from this morning. Unless the weather forecast was FUBAR. Will have a look tomorrow.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, stief said:

Yup. Though, I wish mags like Sail World would link to their source https://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/news/20512/dalin-leads-thomson-on-course-pacing-herrmann-escoffier-in-light-winds . 

but then, I wish the VG writers would sign their pieces too ;) 

Anyway, watching the weather hoping there's a chance Beyou can beat Alex's record and start a shit storm over whether it's "official" :P Cammas thinks the conditions will be right for Gitana tomorrow.

It's Sail-World. Best we can is set a good example and credit them when we copy stuff from their site.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Herman said:

Nope AFAIK, see my routing from this morning. Unless the weather forecast was FUBAR. Will have a look tomorrow.

Thank you for your routings. I, for one, really appreciate your efforts. Go Le Cam go!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Louis Burton on Bureau Vallée 2 jumped the gun and jibed South. Not too long ago, he was side by side with PRB, and then dropped further in the ranking. I wonder if his decision is somewhat out of despair, or a cool headed one.

It will be interesting to see where he stands with his fellow competitors which were in the same area, 2 or 5 days down the road...

Jean Le Cam still freaking amazing and a VERY good race by Kevin Escoffier, on PRB, an older generation boat retrofitted with foils. And to top it of, he is from my "summer home town" of Saint Malo. Go Kevin!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Varan said:

Sail-World agrees thatRuyant was out maneuvered and Dalin seems happy about it.

vendee.jpg.633f3d5ed997f096d07a666560929b12.jpg

Good on him kudos, he earned it, nice gybing battle with Ruyant working the SACZ pressure. Alltough the race front has lost interest big time with these two young bloods (seems like we could see a v2 bis a bis battle like Gabart and LeCleach 8 years ago). I think the main interest of the race now is more in AT's repairs and inmediate future, King Jean's inner lane older boat strategy and video shows with his ClacClacClac cam and his bottles of wine, and the evolution of Beyou with his awesome steelBull and what he will be capable to do...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Varan said:

It's Sail-World. Best we can is set a good example and credit them when we copy stuff from their site.

True that about crediting, and they did show it as a VG aricle--just not a link. I had to go back to the EN VG page to find the article they used.Couldn't find a similar on on the FR side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Varan said:

Thank you for your routings. I, for one, really appreciate your efforts. Go Le Cam go!

Thank you, and plus one. It’s beyond me that a man with his seamanship and race skills is not on a latest generation foiler. Anyone knows here why he is not?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Varan said:

From the above mentioned article

 

I love what Charal is doing. Given his circumstances and the weather forecast why not make an unconventional run down the coast? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Herman said:

Weather update

Current situation with 0830 positions has several HP and several LP zones between South America, Africa and Antarctica. Moving slowly east. GFS and ECMWF more or less agree on what is where and when. Roughly. But very reliable I think it's not when comparing wind speed and direction for the models against ship/island actual measurements today and yesterday. Mark 1 eyeball and the barometer are better. Done a routing anyway to get an idea whats up and to keep the punters happy here. Deepest depressions are between Capetown and Antarctica. The orange line is the SACZ, which is still a no-go zone for the boats. In the coming days the HP zones move east towards in between Gough Island and Capetown pushing the projected routings south for Dalin and Ruyant. Light wind sailing conditions for the top 5 routed for the coming days. JLC at non-foiling polars, the rest @ 102 % foiling. 

 

Current situation 23-11-20 0830 v2 .png

Schermafdruk 2020-11-23 10.50.52.png

Schermafdruk 2020-11-23 10.56.16.png

Schermafdruk 2020-11-23 10.53.30.png

Schermafdruk 2020-11-23 10.53.29.png

Schermafdruk 2020-11-23 10.53.28.png

Schermafdruk 2020-11-23 10.53.27.png

Schermafdruk 2020-11-23 10.53.26.png

Schermafdruk 2020-11-23 10.51.00.png

Schermafdruk 2020-11-23 10.50.57.png

Schermafdruk 2020-11-23 10.50.56.png

Schermafdruk 2020-11-23 10.50.54.png

Now that's a weather update report and routing analisis, whoa... Thank you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Herman said:

Thank you, and plus one. It’s beyond me that a man with his seamanship and race skills is not on a latest generation foiler. Anyone knows here why he is not?

Sarcasm ON

If you want to find big sponsor money, it is better to be a young twenty something good looking girl (aka Clarisse Cremer) than an old salt 60+ scrubby sailor, even if you have a list of sail victories and podium as long as he has...

 

Sarcasm OFF

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Varan said:

Thank you for your routings. I, for one, really appreciate your efforts. Go Le Cam go!

Yes I agree, Herman I have learned a lot from you and appreciate your efforts and also attitude 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Herman said:

Thank you, and plus one. It’s beyond me that a man with his seamanship and race skills is not on a latest generation foiler. Anyone knows here why he is not?

I suspect he knows himself. I also cannot imagine le cam being in an office in Paris sucking up to a finance firm or start up asking for six million euros to do the Vendée Globe and not losing himself. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beyou and Tripon (and the rest of the back half of the fleet) have to figure the south Atlantic is going to be a couple days kinder to them on elapsed time than it has been to the front half...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, eliboat said:

Using a vacuum bag doesn’t mean that you get a primary or chemical bond.  You can achieve that only if you bind something to something else within a certain time frame before the laminate you’re bonding to is fully cured.  You will get a chemical bond regardless of using a bag in this case, although a bag, if used properly, will give you around 15 psi of pressure on the bond.  

Yup. Totally correct.  I should have checked myself before rushing out to work.  What I really meant to say is that one will get a much stronger adhesive bond with the pressure applied by vacuum bagging.  Thanks for the correction.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nine years and 10,000 miles. Sounds like Hugo Boss got some great exposure out of those marketing dollars. 

2 hours ago, stief said:

yeah, yeah. And in 9 years . . . .

Wreck found after drifting for 9 years and 10,000 miles in the Southern Ocean is Alex Thomson’s Hugo Boss

 

Alex Thomson's Hugo Boss, abandoned in 2006 when the keel head broke, has been found 10,000 miles away after 9 years drifting in the Southern Ocean 

Screen-Shot-2016-02-22-at-18.05.00-copy.

These photos of the shipwrecked hull of Alex Thomson’s Hugo Boss were taken in February in Patagonia during a kayak expedition by Chilean adventurer Cristian Donoso. Donoso discovered the yacht nine years after Thomson abandoned the yacht in a last-minute rescue and over 10,000 nautical miles from where the yacht was last seen.

Thomson abandoned the boat 1,000 miles from Cape Town during the solo Velux 5 Oceans race and was rescued by Mike Golding in the Southern Indian Ocean in November 2006. The section of the canting keel head that to attached the rams snapped off so that the keel was swinging freely.

Read Mike Golding’s dramatic retelling of how he carried out the rescue and how it very nearly went wrong.

He and his team agreed that keel failure was imminent, and Mike Golding in Ecover returned into headwinds to make a dramatic and difficult rescue.

Alex Thomson's 2006 Hugo Boss

Alex Thomson’s 2006 Hugo Boss

The discovery nearly a decade later shows that the main part of the hull travelled over 10,000 nautical miles round the world on wind and currents to end up in a remote part of the Bernardo O’Higgins National Park in Chile. The hull would seem to have survived because the keel did, indeed, detach from the hull. The cockpit area has also broken off and the mast, deck hardware, standing and running rigging is all gone.

Stewart Hosford, managing director of Alex Thomson Racing says: “We could not believe it could go so far when we assumed it had sunk!  To date, we not been contacted by anyone, and it is owned by the insurance company, but of course if it needs to be removed or dealt with we will support that in whatever way we can and offer assistance.”

https://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/elaine-bunting/wreck-found-after-drifting-for-9-years-and-10000-miles-in-the-southern-ocean-is-alex-thomsons-hugo-boss-70470

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JLCwine2.thumb.jpg.e2cf03e2f73c53d38107d2619a1d4347.jpg

King Jean and his prefered custom 2010 repairing material :lol:  (it adds a lot of weight and needs to solve it)

JLCwine1.thumb.jpg.a4d5a69193cdf72b876455d3d51616c3.jpgJLCwine1b.thumb.jpg.650ed18cf58dbc0cc1c36537d482a37a.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lot of people speculating the repairs won't be as strong etc etc? I would assume they spec'd a stronger than usual fix to allow for that. If Alex intends on racing and trying to win it's the only way forward. I keep saying this but the designers don't listen, add some extra structure/weight so the boat can make it around the course without breaking. So far the Verdier boats are doing that? I'm not convinced Theta was responsible for the damage? Let's see how this plays out? The odds are against him but with the southern Ocean ahead who's to know? Staying positive is the only way you can complete this race.................

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Lot of people speculating the repairs won't be as strong etc etc? I would assume they spec'd a stronger than usual fix to allow for that. 

Yeah, I don't know why people that do not know how strong it was to begin with can say with such confidence that a repair will be weaker than it was originally. Safe to assume I think that the structure was made to be as light as possible with a relatively small safety factor. They were wrong, obviously.

The same people that are responsible for the design are now advising how to repair - I think they just might have it in mind to overdo the repair in order to keep it from breaking again. Those people are saying that it will be stronger than original. They are far more informed about the details than we are, so either they are correct, they are lying or they are incompetent.

Repairs are commonly stronger than the original structure, sometimes too strong - moving the failure point to a different, even less favorable location. Not suggesting at all that will be the case with AT...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Thread Killer said:

Yeah, I don't know why people that do not know how strong it was to begin with can say with such confidence that a repair will be weaker than it was originally. Safe to assume I think that the structure was made to be as light as possible with a relatively small safety factor. They were wrong, obviously.

The same people that are responsible for the design are now advising how to repair - I think they just might have it in mind to overdo the repair in order to keep it from breaking again. Those people are saying that it will be stronger than original. They are far more informed about the details than we are, so either they are correct, they are lying or they are incompetent.

Repairs are commonly stronger than the original structure, sometimes too strong - moving the failure point to a different, even less favorable location. Not suggesting at all that will be the case with AT...

Exactly I would say some heads are on the chopping block if this is simply a structural failure? The repair would want to hold and given the light conditions can be implemented successfully. Also the repair would take into account a strategy for the Southern Ocean perhaps? They would want Hugo Boss to successfully navigate through the SO and hope for some damage to the other boats? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was reading all these pronouncements about the structural integrity of the repaired boat with great amusement. Sentiment began with "it's fucked and Dalin will have to sail over and fish Thomson out of his life raft" to "it's not repairable" to "it's not going to last".  As someone who works with carbon fiber in for radiotherapy applications, that part looks like stock foam core sheet that's been routed into the shape and then capped with a sheet or two to protect the foam. Such foam panels are not likely to be that thick, eg thinner than the 4mm solid sheet he was looking at bonding in there, but who knows. We shall see. 

For a period in the mid 90's a friend of mine spent a fortune on the most exotic mountain bikes of the time, including the X-shaped, carbon tubed Trimble. My friend, an ex-wrestler was big and strong like bull, and tended to break things, including the ultra-light Trimble. He was good at carbon and epoxy though and he pointed out that the repairs were extremely successful because every time it broke and he repaired it, the next time it broke in a different spot. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, stief said:

Wish Paul Larsen would add his "Pip's advisor" and  "composite expert" comments into the thread. Interesting reactions about Alex's damage

Yes; Paul was pretty restrained and careful in his comments and reaction to the damage, which Conrad seemed clearly aware of and eager to move on...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a positive note for Alex if the repairs are successful and the boat can get through the southern ocean at Alex's normal pace then he has a very good chance of getting a 2nd. I'm assuming one of the Verdier twins will sustain some damage. (I won't say which one). He should be faster than the older gen boats ahead or with him now. That put's him in 2nd place if I am right? To win I think he'll need one of two things to happen. 1 = The Verdier boat or boats park up and he compresses into a position to race them or alternatively both of them sustain damage. My gut feeling is 2nd is his best chance but with such a long way to go and with the Verdier boats using foils that are prone to UFO damage anything is possible. I know I shouldn't be pre-empting this so early but thats what my crystal ball says... :D

P.S. Or I am completely wrong and his boat breaks again and this is last hurrah at the Vendee with a parting message for the structural designers.!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Yup. Totally correct.  I should have checked myself before rushing out to work.  What I really meant to say is that one will get a much stronger adhesive bond with the pressure applied by vacuum bagging.  Thanks for the correction.

I don't think that's true. There are a lot of things one can do to increase bond strength, but pressure is not necessarily one of them.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah typically epoxy wants a fairly thick glue line. Some adhesives like polyurethanes or resorcinal glue want lots of clamping pressure, but not epoxy.

It might help to ensure the whole area is firmly held in place while it glues, but a few clamps will do the trick with the small patches he is using.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

I don't think that's true. There are a lot of things one can do to increase bond strength, but pressure is not necessarily one of them.

I thought the main advantage of Vacuum Bagging was removing air rather than strength. Off course removing the air pressures the bonding resin into place. Extra strength would be achieved by extra material. In Alex's case couldn't they have have used some sort of temporary frame to brace the bow and share the load? Not ideal off course but with the SO coming perhaps sensible?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

I thought the main advantage of Vacuum Bagging was removing air rather than strength. 

I think the main advantage is it allows for the least amount of resin to be used. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Thread Killer said:

I think the main advantage is it allows for the least amount of resin to be used. 

No. The main advantage of using a vacuum bag is uniform pressure over the repair site.  When one is developing mechanical adhesion the last thing one wants is a void of little to no adhesion.

Having repaired the chain stay on my road bike which definitely qualifies as a small patch, vacuum bag clamping was essential.  

Btw, having watched the last several Vids of repair with I think the last one with a headsail unfurled, the 0400 update does not look good from a speed standpoint.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

No. The main advantage of using a vacuum bag is uniform pressure over the repair site. 

Minimum amount of resin and uniform pressure are not mutually exclusive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It sounds like some guys are interchanging laminating carbon cloth with epoxy resin and the use of epoxy resin as an adhesive to bond premade parts.

They are two different processes, that can use the same resin, but they have different sets of rules/ theories/ practical approaches.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it interesting that Louis Burton has struck out to the SSW, chasing the incoming low pressure system, something I though was a viable options days ago.

What worries me about AT atm is his lack of boat speed, compared to all the boats around him. I hope all is well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a little bit surprised that no one else has followed Louis Burton on his Southerly route.  It's a big play, but I'm guessing he'll be jumping ahead in the fleet if the High Pressure zone cooperates... it's almost like he's pulling an Alex

Charlie Dalin and Thomas are exciting to watch as they work through this section of the course. Trying to watch their updates in French, makes me wish my knowledge of French was broader then counting from 1-10.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Hitchhiker said:

No. The main advantage of using a vacuum bag is uniform pressure over the repair site.  When one is developing mechanical adhesion the last thing one wants is a void of little to no adhesion.

Having repaired the chain stay on my road bike which definitely qualifies as a small patch, vacuum bag clamping was essential.  

Btw, having watched the last several Vids of repair with I think the last one with a headsail unfurled, the 0400 update does not look good from a speed standpoint.

I think he still has another day of repairs to do, so pedal not down yet. We will see

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

I think he still has another day of repairs to do, so pedal not down yet. We will see

Yes his dropped off and it became obvious was doing stage 2 of repairs. Had to wait for Stage 1 to cure. By the time he gets going again he'll have the JuanK boat to catch Arkea it will surely overtake him now? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Laurent said:

Sarcasm ON

If you want to find big sponsor money, it is better to be a young twenty something good looking girl (aka Clarisse Cremer) than an old salt 60+ scrubby sailor, even if you have a list of sail victories and podium as long as he has...

 

Sarcasm OFF

 

8 hours ago, Miffy said:

I suspect he knows himself. I also cannot imagine le cam being in an office in Paris sucking up to a finance firm or start up asking for six million euros to do the Vendée Globe and not losing himself. 

It's a pity the sponsors don't want an old white male to push these days, except in the USA for non-sport related fields :rolleyes:. And JLC on his knees for a CEO is not an image I want in my head either. But tjeez, the man deserves such a boat imho so he can retire with a VG on his name. Probably next round will be to late, so go JLC!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Rafael said:

Now that's a weather update report and routing analisis, whoa... Thank you!

 

8 hours ago, loneshark64 said:

Yes I agree, Herman I have learned a lot from you and appreciate your efforts and also attitude 

Thanks, appreciated. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Rafael said:

JLCwine2.thumb.jpg.e2cf03e2f73c53d38107d2619a1d4347.jpg

King Jean and his prefered custom 2010 repairing material :lol:  (it adds a lot of weight and needs to solve it)

JLCwine1.thumb.jpg.a4d5a69193cdf72b876455d3d51616c3.jpgJLCwine1b.thumb.jpg.650ed18cf58dbc0cc1c36537d482a37a.jpg

Forgot to attach the clac clac clac video

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Rafael said:

JLCwine2.thumb.jpg.e2cf03e2f73c53d38107d2619a1d4347.jpg

King Jean and his prefered custom 2010 repairing material :lol:  (it adds a lot of weight and needs to solve it)

JLCwine1.thumb.jpg.a4d5a69193cdf72b876455d3d51616c3.jpgJLCwine1b.thumb.jpg.650ed18cf58dbc0cc1c36537d482a37a.jpg

There is not one chateau AOC in France that does see marketing opportunities here? :lol:

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, tDot said:

I'm a little bit surprised that no one else has followed Louis Burton on his Southerly route.  It's a big play, but I'm guessing he'll be jumping ahead in the fleet if the High Pressure zone cooperates... it's almost like he's pulling an Alex

Charlie Dalin and Thomas are exciting to watch as they work through this section of the course. Trying to watch their updates in French, makes me wish my knowledge of French was broader then counting from 1-10.

Alex is also heading South, together with Sam Davies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not true old guys can't get sponsored, look at Joyon who is three years older than Le Cam, or Peyron for that matter.  One challenge with this Vendee thing is because it's still an adventure race, which has a fair component of luck, it seems you want to win it and then go do something else. The career trajectory is more like mountaineering than say F1, and it's unfortunate we don't have Gabart or Le Cleach in this race with the current leaders. I know ultimes and all that but as we've established, ultimes are...tricky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites