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Vendee Globe 2020

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so since TNZ in the last AC developed the idea of pedaling rather than grinding why has no one else picked it up? The only other person I know that went the pedal route is Franck Cammas when he solo'ed his Groupama X.

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Being able to sit strapped in the cockpit and grind or let line out without having to stand does sound like a competitive advantage on the foiling imocas. 

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1 hour ago, Speng said:

so since TNZ in the last AC developed the idea of pedaling rather than grinding why has no one else picked it up? The only other person I know that went the pedal route is Franck Cammas when he solo'ed his Groupama X.

Perhaps they see the greater heeling angle as a problem, or headroom above the cranks?  Perhaps they are not aware of recumbent bicycles.  That position should deal with both issues, if the rotation axis is longitudinal and there is a seat on either side.

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11 hours ago, Potter said:

2. Did they really mean to put that footage out? Him fixing stuff... That isn't broken, and on the foredeck with no headsail up. Saying 'we are back in the game', but he wasn't in a race. I am assuming bits of this footage will be put out with various stories at some point during the VG.... 

Looks like material that gets filmed and stuck into the image bank for later use. The more the merrier so that we don't get that one clip over and over again. :)

There was at similar thing going on during the Volvo, for a while access to media got restricted hard after a few YT channels just uploaded the raw videos.

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Time to focus. So what is available in terms of trackers? Forss, are you still listening? Yours was the best!

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13 hours ago, Speng said:

so since TNZ in the last AC developed the idea of pedaling rather than grinding why has no one else picked it up? The only other person I know that went the pedal route is Franck Cammas when he solo'ed his Groupama X.

Isabelle (also) uses pedals: 

 

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17 hours ago, staysail said:

A couple of photos from a quick look round the pontoons yesterday. From the structural point of view and on the basis of "if it looks right it probably is.." then I really have my doubts about the foils on HB and on Arkea.
Also it was the first tine I have seen the foils on Corum, which look a bit more sensible to me. HB is very impressive to look at but the idea of sailing round the world in that thing, especially the very hot regions? not for the faint-hearted! 

Must say I find the Corum ones strange, why would you reduce the cross section area at the root where you structurally need it the most?

Regarding HB foils: I guess what they were aiming for was to have a similar amount of lift at different lean angles

Regarding HB cockpit: yes, in the tropics it will be fffing hot inside; but how much time do they spend in hot regions and how much in very cold/wet ones? I think the fully closed cockpit makes a lot of sense ...

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11 hours ago, yl75 said:

video tour of the pontoons with all the boats :

 

 

Good little overview of the fleet. Its cool to see all the different generations and the changing design. 

L'occitane foils look to exit much higher up the boat than the rest of the fleet. Any suggestions as to why? Is it to get separation of the foil from the hull? Or is it too be able to retract out of the water. 

Hugo boss looks like a weapon!

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Hugo Boss looks to be the only boat with outriggers?  Serious advantage if so. Hard to believe they kept such a weapon secret. Maybe why they train separately. 

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1 minute ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Hugo Boss looks to be the only boat with outriggers?  Serious advantage if so. Hard to believe they kept such a weapon secret. Maybe why they train separately. 

It's no secret. Lots of boats have the reaching struts. 

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4 hours ago, oioi said:

Hugo boss looks like a weapon!

She looks a rocket ship alright. Fingers crossed for, Alex for a UFO or serious incident-free go-around.

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I visited the Vendée Globe village today with a friend of mine. We were extremely lucky to see Jérémie Beyou doing a little Q&A session with gests in front of Charal, good questions were asked to Jérémie and we got some informative answers :

- V3 foils : the team wanted a mix of the precedent versions, capable of high speeds and high flights like V1 while being self-stabilizing like V2. They took the V1 shape and redesigned the end. Here is a article on the Charal sailing team were he explains it (only in french unfortunatly) : https://www.charalsailingteam.fr/vendee-globe-imoca-charal-jeremie-beyou/

- Foils comparison : small 2016 foils induce less drag than the big 2020 ones and Jérémie said that boats equiped with those small foils might be able to reach higher Vmax in strong wind conditions compared to the 2020 foilers. On the other hand, bigger 2020 foils allow the foilers to accelerate earlier in light wind conditions, meaning higher average speeds overall. He said that some teams have developped foils profiles that are able to twist under load, reducing their AoA and therefore reducing drag and increasing the speed, but Charal team chose not to built their foils like this because the manufacturing process was too complex and they were concern with the reliability of such foils.

- Highest Vmax : they have picked at 38 knots but have never reached 40 knots and above.

- Cockpit comparison between Charal and Hugo Boss : In Jérémie's opinion, the only real benefit of the fully enclosed Hugo Boss cockpit is a weight saving compared to more traditionnal designs, as the cockpit serves a structural purpose. He feels like he is protected enough in his boat (he said that he could be in t-shirt like on hugo boss). Fully enclosed Hugo Boss cockpit creates a lot of blind spots where you cannot see the sail, and he think that cameras can't replace direct sight as they deform the image therefore the perception of the sail. Also a closed cockpit can be challenging when raising or unfurling a sail, as he sometimes needs to go back and forth several times between the cockpit area and the front of the boat, to untangle a sail or to grind. The difficulty of access to the pink cockpit might not help in this regard. Jérémie said the best solution might be an hybrid between Charal cockpit ease of access and visibility and HB cockpit level of protection.

- Race duration for the 2020 foilers : Charal team ran virtual simulations of the race with weather data from the last 2 decades, the duration results were all between 60 and 70 days, so Jérémie will only be taking 70 days of food on his boat.

 

Also we saw the HB crew installing fences on the last third of the foils, perhaps to deal with caviation of ventilation problems happening on the end. This means that HB wont be able to fully retract his foil out of the water.

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2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

It's no secret. Lots of boats have the reaching struts. 

I think his are just more obvious to an observer as they are stick out when sitting on deck since there isn’t much else there or places to tuck them. 

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I'm not so sure about the access facility aspect between cockpit and front of the boat, is it really easier/quicker on Charal than HB ?

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33 minutes ago, yl75 said:

I'm not so sure about the access facility aspect between cockpit and front of the boat, is it really easier/quicker on Charal than HB ?

Probably not. But, Jérémie is hardly likely to talk up, Hugo Boss. He's likely to have marked out, Alex as his most serious rival. 

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On 10/23/2020 at 9:51 PM, yl75 said:

video tour of the pontoons with all the boats :

 

 

Great tour.  The big take away for me is that the bigger the foils, the more fenders you need.

HB vs L' Occitane in this house.

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9 hours ago, c_me said:

Also we saw the HB crew installing fences on the last third of the foils, perhaps to deal with caviation of ventilation problems happening on the end. This means that HB wont be able to fully retract his foil out of the water.

It doesn't inspire confidence that they're tweaking the foils this late in the game.

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On 10/23/2020 at 10:04 PM, Speng said:

so since TNZ in the last AC developed the idea of pedaling rather than grinding why has no one else picked it up? The only other person I know that went the pedal route is Franck Cammas when he solo'ed his Groupama X.

ETNZ cyclors were developed in part to free up hands for manipulating controls whilst sailing a boat with a much higher degree of electronic controls, IMOCA are only allowed to have hydraulics for the keel and the rudder yaw, everything else is manual controlled, e.g. sheet on a winch, this combined with the fact that grinding takes place much less frequently (as ETNZ would have been cycling the whole time to keep the pressure up), where as IMOCA skippers are only grinding to change or trim a sail, were you need to be able to access the pit etc frequently, I'm not sure the ergonomics play out, as you point out a couple of IMOCA skippers have had one for grinding up/down the main, but I think that was in the days of top handle sheet winches etc.

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12 hours ago, c_me said:

I visited the Vendée Globe village today with a friend of mine. We were extremely lucky to see Jérémie Beyou doing a little Q&A session with gests in front of Charal, good questions were asked to Jérémie and we got some informative answers :

- V3 foils : the team wanted a mix of the precedent versions, capable of high speeds and high flights like V1 while being self-stabilizing like V2. They took the V1 shape and redesigned the end. Here is a article on the Charal sailing team were he explains it (only in french unfortunatly) : https://www.charalsailingteam.fr/vendee-globe-imoca-charal-jeremie-beyou/

- Foils comparison : small 2016 foils induce less drag than the big 2020 ones and Jérémie said that boats equiped with those small foils might be able to reach higher Vmax in strong wind conditions compared to the 2020 foilers. On the other hand, bigger 2020 foils allow the foilers to accelerate earlier in light wind conditions, meaning higher average speeds overall. He said that some teams have developped foils profiles that are able to twist under load, reducing their AoA and therefore reducing drag and increasing the speed, but Charal team chose not to built their foils like this because the manufacturing process was too complex and they were concern with the reliability of such foils.

- Highest Vmax : they have picked at 38 knots but have never reached 40 knots and above.

- Cockpit comparison between Charal and Hugo Boss : In Jérémie's opinion, the only real benefit of the fully enclosed Hugo Boss cockpit is a weight saving compared to more traditionnal designs, as the cockpit serves a structural purpose. He feels like he is protected enough in his boat (he said that he could be in t-shirt like on hugo boss). Fully enclosed Hugo Boss cockpit creates a lot of blind spots where you cannot see the sail, and he think that cameras can't replace direct sight as they deform the image therefore the perception of the sail. Also a closed cockpit can be challenging when raising or unfurling a sail, as he sometimes needs to go back and forth several times between the cockpit area and the front of the boat, to untangle a sail or to grind. The difficulty of access to the pink cockpit might not help in this regard. Jérémie said the best solution might be an hybrid between Charal cockpit ease of access and visibility and HB cockpit level of protection.

- Race duration for the 2020 foilers : Charal team ran virtual simulations of the race with weather data from the last 2 decades, the duration results were all between 60 and 70 days, so Jérémie will only be taking 70 days of food on his boat.

 

Also we saw the HB crew installing fences on the last third of the foils, perhaps to deal with caviation of ventilation problems happening on the end. This means that HB wont be able to fully retract his foil out of the water.

What was the situation exactly ? Who were these guests ? Journalists or not only ? How many ?

And c'était en français je suppose, right ? ;)

Overall I'm not very convinced regarding the critics of Alex cockpit although maybe true for the blind spots

The fences on a third of HB foils is quite some news also.

And did Arkea had its two foils ?

By the way,  the Alex "raw" video has been taken out of youtube (or made private)

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Another tour of the boats by David Sineau, Sam Davies team manager, the automatic English subtitles seem to work quite well on this one  :

 

 

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I don´t have any subtitles neither here nor on youtube. how did you get them?

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8 minutes ago, ET1 said:

I don´t have any subtitles neither here nor on youtube. how did you get them?

YouTube-subtitles.jpg

You have to click on the little rectangle icon (on the bottom right above) to activate the subtitles, and then on wheel/settings icon right of the rectangle to select the target language.

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3 hours ago, yl75 said:

What was the situation exactly ? Who were these guests ? Journalists or not only ? How many ?

And c'était en français je suppose, right ? ;)

Overall I'm not very convinced regarding the critics of Alex cockpit although maybe true for the blind spots

The fences on a third of HB foils is quite some news also.

And did Arkea had its two foils ?

By the way,  the Alex "raw" video has been taken out of youtube (or made private)

Hard to tell who they were, but based on the way Jérémie was talking to them (using generalistic words, explaining basics like standard masts and keels, principle of foiling) and the "naive" questions we deduced that they were employees of the Charal company doing a private tour with JB. They were not taking notes or recording either.

Oui ! C'était en français, we only saw french skippers and no internationals.

I too think that HB solution is great, AT is one of the most experienced skipper of the VG and this cockpit would have not made it on the boat if it did not represent a improvement over the more traditionnal cockpits. I believe that it is possible to adapt to the lack of visibility over the sails (imoca are already lacking visibility compared to other race boats) using cameras and other means. But I also believe that the HB cockpit design could be improved to give a better access and to increase the direct visibility.

Yes Arkea had the two foils installed ! and we were impressed by their size. They are bigger than the HB foils (bigger radius and longer chord) and maybe the biggest of all the boats.

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On 10/23/2020 at 8:34 PM, staysail said:

Its not just the structural design details we don't know, but what is interesting especially for this race, is the manner in which the skippers willhave to manage the position and adjustments these appendages are capable of.
Just by eyeballing them however it is pretty obvious that the HB and Arkea foils are radically different from most of the others so it will be interesting both to see how they perform and which (if any) fail to survive.

yeah it is good to think outside the box. 

Miffy mentioned 787 wing but it is incomparable to boat foils. As we talk about hydro versus aerodynamics. The 787 wing is built to prevent side moving just like a F1 car. It has to keep the plane on the same path. 

Boat foils dealing with a more hard matter like water unlike air and has own different function. So basically Corum foil acts like an extra keel then you add the real keel which forms A shape which is clever. A Swept wing will occasionally brake the boat more often than straight foil. It will be interesting to wath the race. Im sure foil technology will keep developing next few years. 

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4 hours ago, yl75 said:

Another tour of the boats by David Sineau, Sam Davies team manager, the automatic English subtitles seem to work quite well on this one  :

 

 

Very good video. Interesting that Sam Davis' team has decided to shorten the rig and lighten the keel to get a more balanced match with the foils.

 

 

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As far as the predictions game:

I am assuming a boat of the latest generation will win this one (sorry, Sam Davis and Kevin Escoffier).  Below my interpretation of where the various teams are at.

I go for Charal, Hugo Boss and Apivia as the 3 on the podium. But then again, you would also expect at least 1 of them to be forced to retire, because that is the way things go in this race (no folks, not necessarily Alex Thomson;) ).

Below my impression of the different teams, for what it is worth.

Charal – My favourite for the win. Most time sailing of this generation of IMOCAs, which in my book counts for a lot. Had time to evaluate multiple sets of foils, presumably sails as well. Beyou knows the race and has experience from a lot of other big events to draw on.

Hugo Boss – Unless the boat is really in a class of its own (which it may just be, having pushed quite far into some corners), It seems the time the campaign had to take off sailing due to the damage in last year’s TJV will mean the whole affair is slightly undercooked. Having said that, Thomson does know what it takes to get very far in this race and will push very hard indeed.

Apivia – Seems a well prepared and drama free campaign, which is always good. Won the Transat JV. Supported by Gabart’s company. First vendee, may not be an outright favourite, but I think Dalin will be on the podium.

L’occident – Boat surely looks cool and fast. It is also very new, and I am a great believer in time on the water...  Tripon is an unknown to me, though I am sure he is a great sailor like all others who get a campaign like this together.  Unless Manuard has really cracked the code, I am not expecting L’occidant to win.

Linkedout – Seems a slightly underfunded effort, which is usually not quite enough to win an event like this. Has started the race before, so that counts for him. May do well, but I think it will some boats in front of him hitting OFNIs or having other issues to get a podium.

Arkea-Paprec – Simon’s CV is impressive enough. Juan K, for all the people who seem to dislike him on the forum does come out with some fast boats from time to time. However, skipper is new to the VG (not that stopped Gabart…) not an outright favourite to my feeling, but there is also no real reason why he would not do very well.

Corum L’Epargne – Reads like the campaign has everything it needs to be highly competitive, except for preparation time. Inclined to give Troussel the “Dark horse” title for this edition.

DMG Mori – Boat is good, Shiraishi is not inexperienced as a sailor, but also less experienced then the others. I expect him to do better than most expect, but not on the podium.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, yl75 said:

And did Arkea had its two foils ?

"Sébastien Simon received his second foil on Thursday for his Arkea Paprec."

See reference here: https://www.sail-world.com/news/232654/15-days-to-the-start-of-the-Vendee-Globe

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On 10/23/2020 at 4:04 PM, Speng said:

so since TNZ in the last AC developed the idea of pedaling rather than grinding why has no one else picked it up? The only other person I know that went the pedal route is Franck Cammas when he solo'ed his Groupama X.

Isabelle Joschke (spelling?) on MACSF, has pedals on the lower portion of her pedestal/grinder. She can sit low on either starboard side or port side and pedal like on a recumbent bike.

Thighs and buttocks are our biggest muscles; makes sense to me to use them if you can set the ergonomics so it is not an hindrance the rest of the time. You may use your arms for a quick adjustment of a sheet, but winching the main sail halyard  after you shake a reef? You may be happy to have an alternative to those sore shoulders and arms...

The lady is 1.6m high (5' 3") and weighs 50 kg (110 lbs) ... This may be part of the explanation.

image.png.847a212d37593c50a9432b80c1a277e2.png

On other parts of the videos, one can see that the pedals are removed...

 

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Interesting SAIL WORLD article on autopilots and the effects of greater AWS sailing on design aspects of IMOCA60's. (Apologies if this has been posted earlier.)

Eg: "Changes to the way in which skippers trim the sails has in turn meant subtle changes to deck layouts and specifications to ensure that they can keep their boats at their optimum performance. Some of the core design features of the hull and underwater appendages have also changed as a result. 

The growing number in the IMOCA60 fleet that are capable of sustained boat speeds in excess of 30knots means that designers have been forced to balance rudder blades in such a way to avoid them becoming dangerously twitchy at speed. But this makes them difficult to handle manually at lower speeds where the helm becomes much heavier. This not only means stronger components and mountings for the autopilot are required, but makes manual steering much harder.

The extraordinary development in foils and the performance leap in certain conditions that has followed has also been a big factor. Such is the nature of this new development at the leading edge of the sport that there is no form guide."

https://www.sail-world.com/news/232360/Autopilots-quietly-revolutionising-solo-racing

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1 hour ago, Laurent said:

Isabelle Joschke (spelling?) on MACSF, has pedals on the lower portion of her pedestal/grinder. She can sit low on either starboard side or port side and pedal like on a recumbent bike.

 

#.jpg

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18 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Great tour.  The big take away for me is that the bigger the foils, the more fenders you need.

HB vs L' Occitane in this house.

+1 on the latter 

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9 hours ago, Zander said:

L’occident – Boat surely looks cool and fast. It is also very new, and I am a great believer in time on the water...  Tripon is an unknown to me, though I am sure he is a great sailor like all others who get a campaign like this together.  Unless Manuard has really cracked the code, I am not expecting L’occidant to win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just a small remark , it's "l'occitane" not "l'occident" ;) ,  "occitane" meaning more or less "south" in French, from when there was two main group of languages,  "langue d'oc" or "occitan" in the south, and "langue d'oïl" in the north.

(whereas "occident" means the "western world", like in English)

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16 hours ago, yl75 said:

What was the situation exactly ? Who were these guests ? Journalists or not only ? How many ?

And c'était en français je suppose, right ? ;)

Overall I'm not very convinced regarding the critics of Alex cockpit although maybe true for the blind spots

The fences on a third of HB foils is quite some news also.

And did Arkea had its two foils ?

By the way,  the Alex "raw" video has been taken out of youtube (or made private)

RE the ATR video-, I had that book marked to watch on the TV last night....Fucking spewing....phone screen didn’t do it justice 

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9 minutes ago, yl75 said:

Alex raw video is still (or back) on dailymotion :

 

 

Great find!  Thanks mate 

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14 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Interesting SAIL WORLD article on autopilots and the effects of greater AWS sailing on design aspects of IMOCA60's. (Apologies if this has been posted earlier.)

Eg: "Changes to the way in which skippers trim the sails has in turn meant subtle changes to deck layouts and specifications to ensure that they can keep their boats at their optimum performance. Some of the core design features of the hull and underwater appendages have also changed as a result. 

The growing number in the IMOCA60 fleet that are capable of sustained boat speeds in excess of 30knots means that designers have been forced to balance rudder blades in such a way to avoid them becoming dangerously twitchy at speed. But this makes them difficult to handle manually at lower speeds where the helm becomes much heavier. This not only means stronger components and mountings for the autopilot are required, but makes manual steering much harder.

The extraordinary development in foils and the performance leap in certain conditions that has followed has also been a big factor. Such is the nature of this new development at the leading edge of the sport that there is no form guide."

https://www.sail-world.com/news/232360/Autopilots-quietly-revolutionising-solo-racing

Increasing article. No mention on the impact of all these changes on power requirements,  but these must be going up considerably as well. Is the fleet going with a mixture of generator, watt and sea, solar? Did i read right that hb was going without the generator?

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17 hours ago, Zander said:

Hugo Boss – Unless the boat is really in a class of its own (which it may just be, having pushed quite far into some corners), It seems the time the campaign had to take off sailing due to the damage in last year’s TJV will mean the whole affair is slightly undercooked. Having said that, Thomson does know what it takes to get very far in this race and will push very hard indeed.

I've chatted recently with a few people who have been involved in this project (as contractors, not direct HB employees) and they've all said that Alex should be fastest by a good margin and that he also has more 'up his sleeve' in terms of cameras and sensors (and maybe more handling systems but not sure). I'm sure some of this is bias having been involved in the project but there is a strong feeling that the new HB is a rocket.

Whilst Charal has clearly got more time on the water it is starting to feel like this is Alex's race to lose - they've thrown the ball way out there and seemingly got it right so now it's down to reliability and crew errors...

 

Based on this, here's my predictions;

1. HB

2. Charal

3. Apivia

L'Occitane - love the new design approach but think they'll have a breakage. If not then this design could be a real challenger if Armel get's his routing correct.

Arkea-paprec - can't trust reliability of foils, expecting a breakage

LinkedOut and Corum - both potential challengers but lack of budget/preparation puts them outside the top 3 

DMG Mori - dark horse, unlikely to really challenge for top position but with new gen boat if he can keep steady and in one piece then he could sneak a podium after others tumble..

PRB and Initiatives Coeur -  they simply can't keep pace with latest gen boats over this distance. I expect V Riou to finish and would love to see Sam Davies place in top 5 (allowing for attrition of some new gen boats). 

Banque pop - Clarice is awesome and seems to get her routing spot on, first to finish of daggerboard boats and I expect ahead of some foiling boats after poor weather choices and breakages...

 

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25 minutes ago, oioi said:

Increasing article. No mention on the impact of all these changes on power requirements,  but these must be going up considerably as well. Is the fleet going with a mixture of generator, watt and sea, solar? Did i read right that hb was going without the generator?

In below article, Hermann says the energy consumption of this year Imocas has doubled compared to previous edition (fibre optics sensors, oscar, cameras, etc ..) he has solar plus hydrogens plus generator and is targetting around 50 liters of diesel.

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2 hours ago, NZK said:

PRB and Initiatives Coeur -  they simply can't keep pace with latest gen boats over this distance. I expect V Riou to finish and would love to see Sam Davies place in top 5 (allowing for attrition of some new gen boats).

It is Kevin who will be skippering PRB this time around - Riou is in the project management game now :)

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Just now, Miffy said:

It is Kevin who will be skippering PRB this time around - Riou is in the project management game now :)

Shit - good spot, little bit out of date there....

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2 hours ago, NZK said:

I've chatted recently with a few people who have been involved in this project (as contractors, not direct HB employees) and they've all said that Alex should be fastest by a good margin and that he also has more 'up his sleeve' in terms of cameras and sensors (and maybe more handling systems but not sure). I'm sure some of this is bias having been involved in the project but there is a strong feeling that the new HB is a rocket.

Whilst Charal has clearly got more time on the water it is starting to feel like this is Alex's race to lose - they've thrown the ball way out there and seemingly got it right so now it's down to reliability and crew errors...

 

Based on this, here's my predictions;

1. HB

2. Charal

3. Apivia

L'Occitane - love the new design approach but think they'll have a breakage. If not then this design could be a real challenger if Armel get's his routing correct.

Arkea-paprec - can't trust reliability of foils, expecting a breakage

LinkedOut and Corum - both potential challengers but lack of budget/preparation puts them outside the top 3 

DMG Mori - dark horse, unlikely to really challenge for top position but with new gen boat if he can keep steady and in one piece then he could sneak a podium after others tumble..

PRB and Initiatives Coeur -  they simply can't keep pace with latest gen boats over this distance. I expect V Riou to finish and would love to see Sam Davies place in top 5 (allowing for attrition of some new gen boats). 

Banque pop - Clarice is awesome and seems to get her routing spot on, first to finish of daggerboard boats and I expect ahead of some foiling boats after poor weather choices and breakages...

 

If you reckon Arkea foils will have reliability issues, expecting a breakage, why don't you have the same concerns re HB?

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28 minutes ago, staysail said:

If you reckon Arkea foils will have reliability issues, expecting a breakage, why don't you have the same concerns re HB?

Arkea has broken 2 complete sets of foils and is the first foray into imoca foiling by Juan K. Hugo Boss has broken no foils and is the result of VPLP's multiple generation development. Not similarly situated boats at all.

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35 minutes ago, staysail said:

If you reckon Arkea foils will have reliability issues, expecting a breakage, why don't you have the same concerns re HB?

I think @Miffy summed this up nicely...

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42 minutes ago, NZK said:

I think @Miffy summed this up nicely...

Where Miffy says "Hugo Boss has broken no foils" one could add "but hasn't been seen competing in many races yet." Many of the other boats with relatively new and large foils have actually done quite a few races with them by now, some of which have included some quite rough conditions and Arkea stands out for me as the "unlucky" one for foil breakage. Also Juan K. rightly or wrongly, always seems to be given a hard time on SA!

Just trying to be objective amongst the huge HB fan club here, but surely the foils on HB and those on Arkea have many similarities. For example, chord, thickness, length, area, center of area when extended, etc. and are both very different from almost all others for which chord and thickness reduces towards the ends, center of area is closer to the boat and flexibility increases towards the tips (like for a fast aeroplane wing). Presumably the loadings will be essentially the same on both HB and Arkea? Those on HB presumably could even be a bit higher if HB is faster? so unless there is some magic in the structural engineering and manufacturing of HB's foils which has escaped the Arkea team, for me the risk would seem very similar for both boats. Arkea could even have an advantage having seen how their previous broken ones failed?

Harking back to 2008-9 and looking at the only 30% finishing fraction then, and trying to be objective, I reckon the individual odds for any particular new generation boat getting to the finish must be way less than 50/50. For me there is no clear odds on favourite for the race win but based on actual racing performances Charal and Apivia are the ones most likely to get round and so one of those two might win.

The guessing game which makes this race so fascinating!

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Hugo Boss has indeed done fewer miles than they wanted to - but at least their v1 & v2 foils held up longer than under 50 hours. There's nothing "random" or unlucky about Arkea's foil problems - they broke one before the TJV, broke another during the TJV; installed new foils after rebuilding their foil adjustment system - then broke those foils too. They decided to regroup, hire new foil builders and outside expertise to evaluate their foil problems. There's just too much setback IMO to overcome. 

Hugo Boss & Arkea aren't even sister boats - Charal v2 foils & Hugo Boss foils had a similar evolution; and Hugo Boss & Charal's boat modifications have filtered thru VPLP to their respective programs to improve reliability. The number of miles Charal has been able to put in, or Hugo Boss 2016 really shows how much design exp matter IMO. A lot of the upgraded boats have had to rebuild their hull core material - Manuard's new boat has had to deal with bow reinforcement. Corum has had delamination issues in the bow. I don't think it is an accident that the boats with the most number of miles and relatively trouble free existence are VPLP or Verdier. 

But we could all be wrong - maybe Charal, Hugo Boss, Apivia and Linkedout all hit whales and suddenly the 2020 VG becomes a race old gen boats can podium in.

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20 hours ago, OPAL said:

HB network of 9 cameras. Looks like he's got the works, should be interesting.

https://twitter.com/BellLabs/status/1319383355943718912

People keep saying he's missing out on seeing the sails. We've finally admitted that the autopilots are faster than humans most of the time. With everything I've seen the AC/TP52 running, isn't it fair to say he's likely to have some shape/trim analysis available through those same cameras? The two amidship appear to be gimballed to get the same view I've seen of the rig/sail analysis videos. Not sure what the power requirements are, but could very easily do a little "red/green" based angle? Then he'd be a true hamster in a wheel! :D:ph34r:

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1 hour ago, Roller Skates said:

People keep saying he's missing out on seeing the sails. We've finally admitted that the autopilots are faster than humans most of the time. With everything I've seen the AC/TP52 running, isn't it fair to say he's likely to have some shape/trim analysis available through those same cameras? The two amidship appear to be gimballed to get the same view I've seen of the rig/sail analysis videos. Not sure what the power requirements are, but could very easily do a little "red/green" based angle? Then he'd be a true hamster in a wheel! :D:ph34r:

Indeed. The game has changed in so many ways, as we have read.

What hasn't changed much, is all the crap littering the ocean. And avoiding that shit pretty much comes down to luck. I'm hoping they all get real lucky this go-around.

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17 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Indeed. The game has changed in so many ways, as we have read.

What hasn't changed much, is all the crap littering the ocean. And avoiding that shit pretty much comes down to luck. I'm hoping they all get real lucky this go-around.

A lot of the "crap" they're hitting are marine mammals that can no longer avoid the foiling boats but for obvious reasons people don't want to openly discuss hitting dolphins or whales. There's more southern ocean marine wildlife now than the last 100 years... and shipping are hitting them.

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3 hours ago, Miffy said:

Hugo Boss has indeed done fewer miles than they wanted to - but at least their v1 & v2 foils held up longer than under 50 hours. There's nothing "random" or unlucky about Arkea's foil problems - they broke one before the TJV, broke another during the TJV; installed new foils after rebuilding their foil adjustment system - then broke those foils too. They decided to regroup, hire new foil builders and outside expertise to evaluate their foil problems. There's just too much setback IMO to overcome. 

Hugo Boss & Arkea aren't even sister boats - Charal v2 foils & Hugo Boss foils had a similar evolution; and Hugo Boss & Charal's boat modifications have filtered thru VPLP to their respective programs to improve reliability. The number of miles Charal has been able to put in, or Hugo Boss 2016 really shows how much design exp matter IMO. A lot of the upgraded boats have had to rebuild their hull core material - Manuard's new boat has had to deal with bow reinforcement. Corum has had delamination issues in the bow. I don't think it is an accident that the boats with the most number of miles and relatively trouble free existence are VPLP or Verdier. 

But we could all be wrong - maybe Charal, Hugo Boss, Apivia and Linkedout all hit whales and suddenly the 2020 VG becomes a race old gen boats can podium in.

In my own experience, the "objects" struck by underwater appendages "out there" are in the vast majority inanimate. wood, as in logs, limbs, and sawn beams, fishing gear, weed, containers, icebergs, and berg bits, and such. All of the singlehanders sailing in the Figaro are familiar with primatily weed. Fish, rays, and marine mammals, while a threat, are the minority. And could be said are more prevalent in tropical waters, than the southern ocean. 

The un-protected foils are more vulnerable than say a rudder, in line with a fixed keel. The swiss army knife configuration of modern sailboat design, mono, or multihull, has a much greater likelihood of contact with any of those objects. Whether organic, or man made. Can be said there are probably more objects "out there" than in the past 50 years. 

The fused kick up rudders are a response to that threat. The rest of the foils, on all the boats, have an equal chance of being struck, and damaged. It's interesting that the majority of failures, through the years, have been through engineering issues, rather that from striking an object. 

The speed of the flying, foiling, boats this Vendee is probably a greater factor in damage from objects than in the past, as the number of foils each boat is allowed has been fixed for quite a while. 

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23 minutes ago, Miffy said:

A lot of the "crap" they're hitting are marine mammals that can no longer avoid the foiling boats but for obvious reasons people don't want to openly discuss hitting dolphins or whales. There's more southern ocean marine wildlife now than the last 100 years... and shipping are hitting them.

There seems to me to be little point talking about it, Miffy.

What's to be done? Slow the boats down again? Go for a massive whale cull? Get out of the worlds oceans altogether?

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Beats me - seems like a challenge marine biologists and acoustic scientists will best figure out. 

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2 hours ago, Roller Skates said:

People keep saying he's missing out on seeing the sails. We've finally admitted that the autopilots are faster than humans most of the time. With everything I've seen the AC/TP52 running, isn't it fair to say he's likely to have some shape/trim analysis available through those same cameras? The two amidship appear to be gimballed to get the same view I've seen of the rig/sail analysis videos. Not sure what the power requirements are, but could very easily do a little "red/green" based angle? Then he'd be a true hamster in a wheel! :D:ph34r:

I wonder what has happened to meragitée "TrimControl" or e-telltales :

 

It seems quite obvious that these kind of sensors (or let's say some air flow sail sensors of some sort) could bring great benefits, but didn't hear anything about them for this VG edition

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4 hours ago, Roller Skates said:

People keep saying he's missing out on seeing the sails. We've finally admitted that the autopilots are faster than humans most of the time. With everything I've seen the AC/TP52 running, isn't it fair to say he's likely to have some shape/trim analysis available through those same cameras? The two amidship appear to be gimballed to get the same view I've seen of the rig/sail analysis videos. Not sure what the power requirements are, but could very easily do a little "red/green" based angle? Then he'd be a true hamster in a wheel! :D:ph34r:

if you think a second... all those windows on HB will give great visibility esp of the  sails,   And knowing Pete, and been on the boat, i bet the sail view in fact better than sitting 20ft away in a 'standard cockpit'.  Also remember these days at the highest level racing they sail to 'the numbers' and no longer stick a finger in the air and adjust to see what happens

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7 hours ago, staysail said:

 Also Juan K. rightly or wrongly, always seems to be given a hard time on SA!

Just trying to be objective amongst the huge HB fan club here, but surely the foils on HB and those on Arkea have many similarities. For example, chord, thickness, length, area, center of area when extended, etc. and are both very different from almost all others for which chord and thickness reduces towards the ends, center of area is closer to the boat and flexibility increases towards the tips (like for a fast aeroplane wing). Presumably the loadings will be essentially the same on both HB and Arkea? Those on HB presumably could even be a bit higher if HB is faster? so unless there is some magic in the structural engineering and manufacturing of HB's foils which has escaped the Arkea team, for me the risk would seem very similar for both boats. Arkea could even have an advantage having seen how their previous broken ones failed?

Harking back to 2008-9 and looking at the only 30% finishing fraction then, and trying to be objective, I reckon the individual odds for any particular new generation boat getting to the finish must be way less than 50/50. For me there is no clear odds on favourite for the race win but based on actual racing performances Charal and Apivia are the ones most likely to get round and so one of those two might win.

The guessing game which makes this race so fascinating!

Don't know whether Juan K. designs are better or worse on average than ones from VPLP or Verdier. But it's surely not great to have a skipper of one of your designs say something like that:
 

Quote

“Over the past two years, we have broken three of our foils, two during the Transat Jacques Vabre, and one last July. We are in an innovative technical sport. The foils develop a lot of power. The loads we initially calculated were not the right ones. We examined this in more depth before arriving at this V3. "

https://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/news/19853/arkea-paprec-has-two-v3-foils-now

Regarding similarity of Arkea and HB's foils: they might look similar on the outside but may be structurally very different. They are from 2 different design teams so I'd be surprised if they are similar given that HB and Arkea may have different sailplans and definitely have different hull concepts.

I guess you have a point that new designs have a higher risk of not making it to the finish line. But IIRC it's also true that the last 2 VG's were won by newly designed boats.

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15 hours ago, yl75 said:

Alex raw video is still (or back) on dailymotion :

 

 

Gone!

I wonder what is being protected.  I suspect that a cat was let out of the bag in the video.

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14 hours ago, Roller Skates said:

People keep saying he's missing out on seeing the sails. We've finally admitted that the autopilots are faster than humans most of the time. With everything I've seen the AC/TP52 running, isn't it fair to say he's likely to have some shape/trim analysis available through those same cameras? The two amidship appear to be gimballed to get the same view I've seen of the rig/sail analysis videos. Not sure what the power requirements are, but could very easily do a little "red/green" based angle? Then he'd be a true hamster in a wheel! :D:ph34r:

Here's a theory:

I think the HB team may have just crossed the line away from the 'romanticized'/traditional ocean racing style of previous Vendee's and put it squarely in the same ball park as the AC in terms of the technological approach. Fully enclosed cockpit, multiple sensor/camera arrays and even VR/headset systems to view and control sails and foils with windows for not much more than not going fucking mental inside your 35 knot operations centre.....

IMOCA boats have been getting more and more technical and reliant on sensors to manage rig and hull loads plus cockpits become more enclosed as speeds and deck-wash increase but the new HB is the first to seemingly throw the ball completely into the 'technology' paddock. If successful I reckon this could be a similar switch in IMOCA designs as we saw in the Cup with the AC72s/AC50s into the foiling and 'oil pumping' generation and with the switch will come the same split in opinions of whether it counts as 'real' sailing or just button pushing and grinding. 

Admittedly with the variety in the IMOCA/Vendee fleets in terms of budgets this won't be an immediate and all-encompassing switch but I think for top teams it might be the case (the Ultimes are pretty much going this way too looking at recent deckhouse designs - except Thomas Colville who likes to stick his head out of the sunroof at 40knots like an excited labrador).  

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18 hours ago, staysail said:

Where Miffy says "Hugo Boss has broken no foils" one could add "but hasn't been seen competing in many races yet." Many of the other boats with relatively new and large foils have actually done quite a few races with them by now, some of which have included some quite rough conditions and Arkea stands out for me as the "unlucky" one for foil breakage. Also Juan K. rightly or wrongly, always seems to be given a hard time on SA!

Just trying to be objective amongst the huge HB fan club here, but surely the foils on HB and those on Arkea have many similarities. For example, chord, thickness, length, area, center of area when extended, etc. and are both very different from almost all others for which chord and thickness reduces towards the ends, center of area is closer to the boat and flexibility increases towards the tips (like for a fast aeroplane wing). Presumably the loadings will be essentially the same on both HB and Arkea? Those on HB presumably could even be a bit higher if HB is faster? so unless there is some magic in the structural engineering and manufacturing of HB's foils which has escaped the Arkea team, for me the risk would seem very similar for both boats. Arkea could even have an advantage having seen how their previous broken ones failed?

Harking back to 2008-9 and looking at the only 30% finishing fraction then, and trying to be objective, I reckon the individual odds for any particular new generation boat getting to the finish must be way less than 50/50. For me there is no clear odds on favourite for the race win but based on actual racing performances Charal and Apivia are the ones most likely to get round and so one of those two might win.

The guessing game which makes this race so fascinating!

Look the same is far from work or behave the same, especially when made out of carbon. Arkea foils have been reinforce but it is by adding layers of carbon on top of the existing, it's not structurally as strong as building the same at once. Depending on the optimization (shape and materials) vs load, there can be very significant differences in the performances and resistance of similar looking foils.

On the other hand, it's better to break them before the race, it gave time to Arkea to address the issue. Let's hope they have learned their lessons and those will hold. The concern is not that they broke a foil, since they might have underestimated load or its characteristics but that should have been studied and addressed for second pair which it wasn't. That clearly put a question mark about their understanding of the loading and their ability to optimize construction of their foils accordingly.

Don't wish them any more breakage and I rank Corum and L'Occitane higher in my risk table but we'll see. Unlikely that all boats will finish but we might still see record ratio of finishers/starters.

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12 hours ago, minca3 said:

Regarding similarity of Arkea and HB's foils: they might look similar on the outside but may be structurally very different. They are from 2 different design teams so I'd be surprised if they are similar given that HB and Arkea may have different sailplans and definitely have different hull concepts.


I guess you have a point that new designs have a higher risk of not making it to the finish line. But IIRC it's also true that the last 2 VG's were won by newly designed boats.

Structurally different, maybe, but structurally "very different"?


Comparing two hydrofoil cross section beams, both of constant and similar external envelope cross section area, approximately the same maximum thickness and chord dimensions and having the same basic load-bearing material of construction, i.e. carbon fibre, the structure designers for Arkea and HB are constrained pretty tightly with design options to build a foil with a specific target strength, flexibility and weight. And if both boats have similar all up weight and similar target speeds, the lift forces they expect from the foil must be very similar for each. It will be very interesting to see if HB foil design holds up for the distance.


Anyone know why Corum went for foils of a very different concept from those on Arkea?

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19 minutes ago, staysail said:

Structurally different, maybe, but structurally "very different"?

See the AC threads, but the first pass at doing foil arms for the AC75 did not pass their load test, so they failed and the teams redesigned the structure internally, the resulting arms look externally very similar to the ones that failed but with a completely different laminate schedule they are structurally very different, heavier and stronger.

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21 minutes ago, staysail said:

Anyone know why Corum went for foils of a very different concept from those on Arkea?

Arkea's original foils caused a rule interpretation by the class outlawing them, and they were subsequently modified to pass class rules again, Corum was a later build and presumedly skipped the invalid foil configuration?

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1 hour ago, JonRowe said:

See the AC threads, but the first pass at doing foil arms for the AC75 did not pass their load test, so they failed and the teams redesigned the structure internally, the resulting arms look externally very similar to the ones that failed but with a completely different laminate schedule they are structurally very different, heavier and stronger.

Sure but with a known and very similar cross section for a load-bearing beam (i.e. Arkea and HB)  there is a very limited choice as to where the load bearing material can be placed within the cross section and how it can be oriented. With their size and shape similarities HB and Arkea both need to come up with essentially the same answers in terms of strength and flexibility, weight also being a consideration. Sure if a designer has underestimated the loads and made a foil which is too light the foil will break. If the cross section is big enough it can be built stronger and heavier without changing the section. If however the concept is flawed, for example if the overall lifting surface area is too great for the length and thickness, it could be impossible, with the allowed materials, to make a strong enough assembly.
The race will be the proving ground!

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Staysail,

  I think the key point is the HB team has actual foiling loads from their 2016 boat, while the Arkea team was starting from scratch, as was their designer. If they managed to reuse the tooling between v2 and v3 I don’t know, but there can be a significant amount of additional structure added not only to the laminate but to the shear web to make a design that appears too thin work with the existing 6 figure tooling.

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HB foils are full (as in solid) carbon since V1.

Arkea tried 2 versions of hollow foils before reverting to (mostly) full foils for V3. Which quite certainly cost them a lot in bulb weight as well, because of the increased weight of the foils...

Structurally, hollow means that there are shear webs inside the profile. Full means that the solid material itself is the "shear web".

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1 hour ago, JonRowe said:

Arkea's original foils caused a rule interpretation by the class outlawing them, and they were subsequently modified to pass class rules again, Corum was a later build and presumedly skipped the invalid foil configuration?

The issue was their foil control system - once it became known before the start of the TJV, an interpretation question was raised and by Arkea’s system was not in compliance. 

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6 hours ago, NZK said:

Here's a theory:

I think the HB team may have just crossed the line away from the 'romanticized'/traditional ocean racing style of previous Vendee's and put it squarely in the same ball park as the AC in terms of the technological approach. Fully enclosed cockpit, multiple sensor/camera arrays and even VR/headset systems to view and control sails and foils with windows for not much more than not going fucking mental inside your 35 knot operations centre.....

IMOCA boats have been getting more and more technical and reliant on sensors to manage rig and hull loads plus cockpits become more enclosed as speeds and deck-wash increase but the new HB is the first to seemingly throw the ball completely into the 'technology' paddock. If successful I reckon this could be a similar switch in IMOCA designs as we saw in the Cup with the AC72s/AC50s into the foiling and 'oil pumping' generation and with the switch will come the same split in opinions of whether it counts as 'real' sailing or just button pushing and grinding. 

Admittedly with the variety in the IMOCA/Vendee fleets in terms of budgets this won't be an immediate and all-encompassing switch but I think for top teams it might be the case (the Ultimes are pretty much going this way too looking at recent deckhouse designs - except Thomas Colville who likes to stick his head out of the sunroof at 40knots like an excited labrador).  

There was a big moment for a bit where Joyon went the opposite route, and had some serious success for a decade. Streamlining down to the essentials. I'm very much excited to see the "compression" after this cycle. What works? What are the real energy needs? What can be repaired at sea?

After how many electrical failures we've seen in past versions - more complexity isn't necessarily a good thing.

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19 minutes ago, Roller Skates said:

There was a big moment for a bit where Joyon went the opposite route, and had some serious success for a decade. Streamlining down to the essentials. I'm very much excited to see the "compression" after this cycle. What works? What are the real energy needs? What can be repaired at sea?

After how many electrical failures we've seen in past versions - more complexity isn't necessarily a good thing.

I was wondering after I wrote this whether there would be a push-back from some of the French sailors against the technology? This is perhaps being a bit judgmental and I think given the campaigns run by Charal, L'Occitane etc they'd be willing to commit to whatever is proven to be fastest. 

Also, yes - electrical reliability is set to be a huge factor. Hopefully Boss (and the other teams) have made enough allowances for redundancies.... 

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http://www.courseaularge.com/vendee-globe-sauts-technologiques-impressionnants.html

vg2020-20200716-charal-vg-bi-gl-6072-basse-definition-vi.jpg

If we compare with the previous Vendée Globe, the changes are concentrated in three main areas: instrumentation, which hardly existed four years ago, and which, thanks to numerous sensors, gives you time real loads which weigh, for example, on the foils , the rudders and all the cables; automatic pilots, which allow the boat to be steered according to several parameters desired by the skipper, via what is called a system of overlays, specially designed by the team; communication, with new more reliable antennas and above all allowing better throughput.

You don't have to be an engineer to get an IMOCA moving quickly, but it's a plus to have technical background or you need experience. By dint of sailing,  you are able to detect when it exceeds the limits of the boat and therefore when it needs to ease off, even before the alarms sound. It is obvious that in terms of IT and electronics, our profession has changed compared to the first Vendée Globe. You also spend less time composing the boat or repairing fittings, because the equipment is more reliable and the crew's readiness is higher. "

I'm from the GPS generation and Grib files, but when I prepared for my first Vendée Globe in 2008 with Pierre Lasnier, he wanted to teach me how to do the tour of the world without a grib file in case I had been deprived of it. So to predict the weather forecast based on the barometer, the water temperature, the shape of the clouds… And in the end, I had to use all of that for the (last) Vendée Globe. At first, I wondered how I was going to do it and gradually it almost became a game. "

Today, everyone is talking about the shapes of the foils, the performance of the boats, but two weeks before the start of the Vendée Globe, you begin to realize that it's still a crazy adventure, that you will find yourself at the top of the cliff and that you will have to jump. And there it is only the mind but also physics, because the new boats, built around foils, and therefore able to fly in many conditions, have become much more demanding than their predecessors were, requiring a very high level of sport preparation ...

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Regarding technology, which skippers do you think are the most of a"handyman" type, and in which domain ?

Kevin for sure is, at least for deck gear and composite stuff, not sure about electronics and computers/software.

Jeremie says in an interview that the "bricolage stuff" is not his forte, (it was compared to Gabart and Armel, who both have an engineering degree and also are quite handy), but that he has made progress.

How about Alex ?

However now with the quality communication channels they have, they are allowed to have shore assisstance, and so can receive detailed trouble shooting or fixing procedures I think.

Parlier repairing his mast in NZ was something ! :

http://www.thmartinez.com/folio/339/media/D46BYHKDG361LYRY01CD2U/yves-parlier-fra-vendee-globe-2000-01.html

With heat for the epoxy from lamps :

http://www.thmartinez.com/folio/339/media/8Q5I6227U46IELG09SB52Z/yves-parlier-fra-vendee-globe-2000-01.html

http://www.thmartinez.com/folio/339/yves-parlier-vendee-globe-exclusives-images.html

He also built a raft to go grab some mussels, as he was allowed to go to shore below the upper tide limit :

http://www.thmartinez.com/folio/339/media/ZSAFYJ9O39N15F35BA6DT3/yves-parlier-fra-vendee-globe-2000-01.html

The size of the satellite antenna of the time is also impressive :

http://www.thmartinez.com/folio/339/media/6P10X44BET43P2291T2D3D/yves-parlier-fra-vendee-globe-2000-01.html

(mich dej starting his engine with themain sheet as well, and winning the race doing it as well).

 

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I think a lot of it will just simply depend on the depth of the support team - there are so many items that can go wrong these days, having the spares already pre-installed or bypass procedure designed and documented will make any sleep deprived skipper seem brilliant. 

Didn't update the firmware before leaving & robustly testing it and run into a bug or incompatibility issue with something as silly as a datum change? Not much you can do about it once under way no?

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2 hours ago, Miffy said:

I think a lot of it will just simply depend on the depth of the support team - there are so many items that can go wrong these days, having the spares already pre-installed or bypass procedure designed and documented will make any sleep deprived skipper seem brilliant. 

 

The pre race 'PPPPP' and the spares taken will be very important.
These very impt spares that are going on the Vendee  come from darkest depths of Northumberland... namely English Oak i logged a number of years ago and is also used in our new house   So i will be there in tree,  if not body :-)

IMG_7278[111].jpg

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2 hours ago, SSolo said:

The pre race 'PPPPP' and the spares taken will be very important.

Proper Prior Preparation Potentially Prevents Piss Poor Performance? You missed a few;)

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On 10/24/2020 at 12:21 AM, WetSnail said:

Perhaps they see the greater heeling angle as a problem, or headroom above the cranks?  Perhaps they are not aware of recumbent bicycles.  That position should deal with both issues, if the rotation axis is longitudinal and there is a seat on either side.

Recumbent bicycles are faster because they are more aerodynamic but for extracting sheer power from a human, the upright position works better. So I am not convinced that recumbent would work well to operate a winch grinder.

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Recumbent bicycles are faster because they are more aerodynamic but for extracting sheer power from a human, the upright position works better. So I am not convinced that recumbent would work well to operate a winch grinder.

It sort of depends - before the UCI decided definitively to kill tech development in the 1990s - we look at various options for sponsorship opportunities in the cycling industry and one of the areas explored and researched was power development analysis (assuming riders being able to train to the bike and it being geared appropriately). In a recumbent you don't have such strong power stroke cycling and you're forced to pedal elliptically like optimal cycling pedal stroke that pros and high quality amateurs do instinctively. In a traditional frame, particularly with any sort of climbing - a lot of people default to power stroking like they're a reciprocating piston right leg left leg - you get higher instantaneous peak wattage but averaged out thru the entire climb, there's really no power benefit.

Whenever we see smaller sailers trying to operate the coffee grinder that isn't height spec correctly or geared too high - they have the problem of being unable to maintain the elliptical grinding once the line tension gets beyond their leverage/weight/strength/gear combo and they're trying to power stroke it 30 degrees at a time. If a workable power transfer custom build apparatus is provided so they can use their legs? That's an easy extra 100-200 watts most able bodied healthy adults can muster over their very well trained arms.

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49 minutes ago, Miffy said:

It sort of depends - before the UCI decided definitively to kill tech development in the 1990s - we look at various options for sponsorship opportunities in the cycling industry and one of the areas explored and researched was power development analysis (assuming riders being able to train to the bike and it being geared appropriately). In a recumbent you don't have such strong power stroke cycling and you're forced to pedal elliptically like optimal cycling pedal stroke that pros and high quality amateurs do instinctively. In a traditional frame, particularly with any sort of climbing - a lot of people default to power stroking like they're a reciprocating piston right leg left leg - you get higher instantaneous peak wattage but averaged out thru the entire climb, there's really no power benefit.

Whenever we see smaller sailers trying to operate the coffee grinder that isn't height spec correctly or geared too high - they have the problem of being unable to maintain the elliptical grinding once the line tension gets beyond their leverage/weight/strength/gear combo and they're trying to power stroke it 30 degrees at a time. If a workable power transfer custom build apparatus is provided so they can use their legs? That's an easy extra 100-200 watts most able bodied healthy adults can muster over their very well trained arms.

Yes, gearing and training can definitely help. TBH I am still skeptic as I have 10s of 1000s of cycling miles under my belt, mainly long distance (that is low wattage for a very long time!) and I've cycled alongside recumbent riders and more interestingly alongside people who sometimes switch from one to the other. IME they are faster and go further on the bent because they can output a steady wattage very efficiently with less drag but when it is time to climb a hill even if they spin their legs like mad their peak output power is less.

I am surprised that nobody has tried to adapt some form of ergometer to use human power. OK, you get discontinuous power strokes but with your legs and arms working together you can decide to either take it long and steady or fast and furious.

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16 minutes ago, Varan said:

 Kevin Escoffier interview

I would like to be in front of all the boats of the older generation, and if in the process I am able to also put a new boat or two behind... I will!

He's carrying a spare rudder!

I'll wager 50 imaginary standardized economic units that PRB finishes ahead of all older boats except initiatives coeur & maliza & finishes ahead of DMG-Mori, Corum and Arkea Paprec

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3 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Yes, gearing and training can definitely help. TBH I am still skeptic as I have 10s of 1000s of cycling miles under my belt, mainly long distance (that is low wattage for a very long time!) and I've cycled alongside recumbent riders and more interestingly alongside people who sometimes switch from one to the other. IME they are faster and go further on the bent because they can output a steady wattage very efficiently with less drag but when it is time to climb a hill even if they spin their legs like mad their peak output power is less.

I am surprised that nobody has tried to adapt some form of ergometer to use human power. OK, you get discontinuous power strokes but with your legs and arms working together you can decide to either take it long and steady or fast and furious.

Have to keep in mind - most people who ride recumbent these days are our friends with accessibility requirements and while aerodynamically they're in a better condition, physically a lot of them are older, dealing with back/shoulder disabilities. 

In re eliminating deadspace during the stroke... there's always these power pedals/rotor cranks and all these various gizmos promising to provide some mechanical advantage or train the rider to pedal in a better complete circle. I'm almost certain they recycle the same ideas in diff packaging every 10 years to get more amateurs to part with their money thinking this is how they're going to make it

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5 minutes ago, Miffy said:

In re eliminating deadspace during the stroke... there's always these power pedals/rotor cranks and all these various gizmos promising to provide some mechanical advantage or train the rider to pedal in a better complete circle. I'm almost certain they recycle the same ideas in diff packaging every 10 years to get more amateurs to part with their money thinking this is how they're going to make it

For the deadspace, I was talking of the ergometer (rowing machine).