inebriated

sandbagging

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last cup it was pretty clear after the ac50's had been launched that at least ETNZ had not shown their full package at all in their ac45's

seeing as these are the equivalent to the 45's from the last cup, could you guys imagine that anyone is holding huge game-breakers back from their boats while there is still time to make changes to major parts of their race boats?

or do teams know less about this class than they did about the ac50 and are putting all their ideas into boat one

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In sailing, in depends where the bags are, might well be an advantage...

I guess they want to test anything for which they want to validate correlation with simulation or which has major impact on boat handling/behavior, as well as anything which need testing to be refine on boat 2. That probably makes a pretty long list.

If they feel some items can bring extra performance and don't affect the above, can be added to the boat without much need to test/correlation/getting used to. They might keep those for later but this list is probably much shorter than the above given that the concept is totally new and there is so much to understand.

Easy to see based on the 4 boats revealed. If one design is better than the other 3, the team testing that design has an advantage even if the other teams copy + some evolution, they won't have correlation and testing data.

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6 hours ago, inebriated said:

last cup it was pretty clear after the ac50's had been launched that at least ETNZ had not shown their full package at all in their ac45's

seeing as these are the equivalent to the 45's from the last cup, could you guys imagine that anyone is holding huge game-breakers back from their boats while there is still time to make changes to major parts of their race boats?

or do teams know less about this class than they did about the ac50 and are putting all their ideas into boat one

I guess it depends on how you look at the role of these early boats.  The learning curve will be so steep that the moment in time these boats represent will feel like a very long time ago once the 2nd generation is launched.

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15 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

There is no reason for actual sandbagging, certainly not during the ACWS as the four Superteams are all building a 2nd Boat. It might have become an Issue if you're only allowed to built one Boat like last time.

i'd tend to disagree with you

for all purposes, the team's alst ac45's were essentially what these boat ones are for

the ACWS racing doesn't count for anything really

we saw that ETNZ held back their bikes from the ac45

and i'd be willing to bet that it was to hide the idea so no other team could copy them

and i would also be willing to bet that teams would of copied them had they of put the bikes on the 45

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No point showing off your best stuff until after the other guys' boats are locked and loaded. 

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Yeah, they're all learning with this first boat so they really do not have anything to sandbag with. Even with the small surrogate boats they have to see if what they learned there scales up to the big boat. Once concepts on these boats are worked-out then you could see some sandbagging later.

These boats are still too much of a freak in my opinion.

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18 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Ask yourself a Question: Why would any of the 4 Super (Teams) sandbagging at least with their 1st Boat when they still have a 2nd Boat in waiting? And the 2nd Generation Boats of this class will be significantly faster compared to the 1st Generation Boats. There is no reason for sandbagging with the 1st Gen Boats.

to hide a big advantage form the other teams until the other teams go in a different direction and invest into boat 2

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1 hour ago, inebriated said:

to hide a big advantage form the other teams until the other teams go in a different direction and invest into boat 2

Like s mOuntain bike behind the helmsman?

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6 minutes ago, barfy said:

Like s mOuntain bike behind the helmsman?

yeah man, the unicycle had so much thaught put into it, truly inspirational

crazy to think that years of development into the "mountain bike" was wasted when they scrapped it for a few extra kg's

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It's a good question, because there seems to be strong pros and cons. A big lesson of the last 2 Cups for NZ has been the benefit of not playing all the cards to early). OTOH new ideas in this radical class need to be validated.

I reckon for anything that needs modelling they can't rev frequently - hulls and foils for example, they'd have built something along the lines of the target so they can validate.

For systems stuff that doesn't need modelling and can by rule be revised (and I'm not sure exactly what falls under that rule, but I'd be thinking mainsail configs, any setup tricks like the bikes), they'd try to hold that back if at all possible.

But who knows! Quite possible that with a focus on handling and systems in boat 1 a team might have gone with a massive red herring for hull shape...

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On 10/19/2019 at 12:00 AM, inebriated said:

i'd tend to disagree with you

for all purposes, the team's alst ac45's were essentially what these boat ones are for

the ACWS racing doesn't count for anything really

we saw that ETNZ held back their bikes from the ac45

and i'd be willing to bet that it was to hide the idea so no other team could copy them

and i would also be willing to bet that teams would of copied them had they of put the bikes on the 45

I don't know that ETNZ necessarily "held back their bikes from the AC45". ETNZ's AC45 was actually Luna Rossa's that they acquired (along with LR's design data for the aborted AC62) after LR pulled out of AC35 over the design rule changes. My guess is more that ETNZ wasn't trying to hide the pedal grinders as much as they were trying to not spend additional funds on the grinding pedestals on an already complete AC45...

The added bonus in doing so was that no one was going to see the bike idea until it was too late to do anything about it...

But yes, I do agree that other boats would have had pedal grinders if they saw another team doing it successfully early on. Hell, Oracle tried to add a set of unicycle pedals in the back of the boat for the tactician to aid in building hydro pressure/stored energy...

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6 hours ago, Brutal said:

I don't know that ETNZ necessarily "held back their bikes from the AC45"

I'm pretty sure they did. Remember the padded jackets to pretend their grinder were bulking up. They've also stated that it was a big secret and only on a need to know basis within the team. 

They really didn't want to let that cat out of the bag too early.

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6 minutes ago, trig42 said:

I'm pretty sure they did. Remember the padded jackets to pretend their grinder were bulking up. They've also stated that it was a big secret and only on a need to know basis within the team. 

They really didn't want to let that cat out of the bag too early.

While I agree they didn't want to show anything until it was too late to be copied, I don't think the Kiwis intentionally kept the pedal grinders off the test boat. I seriously doubt that they had any intention of burning any of their already limited funds for AC35 on retrofitting a boat that would never see a racecourse. They had the manpower available to test with traditional grinding pedestals, so save the money on the trainer retrofit and the idea for the actual racer. It's sound strategy.

As for keeping it need to know, "loose lips, sink ships."

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My understanding is that;
ETNZ in AC35 could refill their ONE reservoir at will, and OR could not so a tacking dual would have stopped OR from foiling - never used becaused they did not need to.
The no look Gybe was only one of a number of skills aimed at reducing the opposition's ability to cover and spoil their wind - it was only used twice and most did not notice it the first time.
Their skill in the start box was left until the actual challenge - feed Jimmy's ego then ate him for breakfast.
They liked to loose the start then test themselves and learn ways to pass, (using their superior VMG (my observation and I await Stringray's analysis)).

These are the thoughts of a dedicated Fanboy who suggests "Sandbagging won ETNZ the Cup!"

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10 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

They liked to loose the start then test themselves and learn ways to pass, (using their superior VMG

im not sure they 'liked ' to lose

it looked to me they were just trying to stay away from any possible damage a starting box duel might cause ( she was using damaged foils at that stage )   .. and losing the start wasnt a big enough reason to counter that

it also looked like that while they appeared to lose the start .. it was never by much and they were usually leading when rounding the first mark on that short leg

until the last race .. where they hooked jimmy and left him floundering in their wake

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My memory was that they were usually second to the first mark as they optimized for upwind not reach. so they had to learn to pass.

Pete sandbagged the start and the reach so they could practice passing even in the challenger series.  (IMHO emphasized!) 

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55 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

y memory was that they were usually second to the first mark as they optimized for upwind not reach. so they had to learn to pass.

 your probably right

but i shall ( enjoy hugely ) check them out .. just to see and make sure

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2 hours ago, Kiwing said:

My understanding is that;
ETNZ in AC35 could refill their ONE reservoir at will, and OR could not so a tacking dual would have stopped OR from foiling - never used becaused they did not need to.
The no look Gybe was only one of a number of skills aimed at reducing the opposition's ability to cover and spoil their wind - it was only used twice and most did not notice it the first time.
Their skill in the start box was left until the actual challenge - feed Jimmy's ego then ate him for breakfast.
They liked to loose the start then test themselves and learn ways to pass, (using their superior VMG (my observation and I await Stringray's analysis)).

These are the thoughts of a dedicated Fanboy who suggests "Sandbagging won ETNZ the Cup!"

Ha, ha. Not too far from the reality either, IMO.

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My recollection was the the rule allowed 3 accumulators, one in each hull for foils and one in the centre pod for the wing.

Everyone bar ETNZ used 3, ETNZ used 2, omitting the centre pod one. Everyone else was recharging their foil accumulators before the races with other crew, and couldn't recharge during racing. They were limited to the number of manouvres they could do.

The ETNZ bikes gave them greater flexibility and saved weight.

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5 hours ago, trig42 said:

I'm pretty sure they did. Remember the padded jackets to pretend their grinder were bulking up. They've also stated that it was a big secret and only on a need to know basis within the team. 

 They really didn't want to let that cat out of the bag too early.

do you have a photo of them wearing the padded jackets?

i never heard about that back in 2017 but i love it!

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4 hours ago, Kiwing said:

My memory was that they were usually second to the first mark as they optimized for upwind not reach. so they had to learn to pass.

Pete sandbagged the start and the reach so they could practice passing even in the challenger series.  (IMHO emphasized!) 

ETNZ went to Perth to practice their match racing skills on M32's. They actually smashed the local, world ranked, hardened match racers experienced in sailing M32's. They were more than a match for Jimmy and handed him his ass on a plate in more than one pre-start...

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8 hours ago, trig42 said:

Remember the padded jackets to pretend their grinder were bulking up.

I missed this at the time and have seen it mentioned here more than once... anyone got a link?

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12 hours ago, Kiwing said:

My memory was that they were usually second to the first mark as they optimized for upwind not reach. so they had to learn to pass.

Pete sandbagged the start and the reach so they could practice passing even in the challenger series.  (IMHO emphasized!) 

just watched all the starts

unfortunately as i expected i couldn't stop and watched all the races start to finish as well ( thanks for the impetus it was as expected thoroughly enjoyable .. even the loss )

 

commentators gave the starts 8 / 2 to burling

i gave it 5 to burling and 3 even starts

etnz led at the first mark 6 times ..  oracle 2 times ... even 1 time

 

again .. thanks .. it was great to watch

 

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6 hours ago, phill_nz said:

just watched all the starts

unfortunately as i expected i couldn't stop and watched all the races start to finish as well ( thanks for the impetus it was as expected thoroughly enjoyable .. even the loss )

 

commentators gave the starts 8 / 2 to burling

i gave it 5 to burling and 3 even starts

etnz led at the first mark 6 times ..  oracle 2 times ... even 1 time

 

again .. thanks .. it was great to watch

 

OR was OCS in two of the starts, right? After one of them they said they’d had an electronics issue with their timer.

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No motivation for winning other than sailors are competitors.
Great motivation for teams to learn about others and themselves, and what racing these beasts will be like?

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