eurochild

Wind Limits - Where are they

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15 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Come on do we really need to go down that dark and gloomy tunnel? Just ask LR what they think of Oracle's rule fiddling.

Different, LR was mad because of a new boat that was equal to all, so much that the defender lost. According to TFE Ben is mad because they had to construct a yacht without knowing the conditions of the race and use supplied material that does not work properly for him.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Ben is mad

Oh my. Not time for a "dear husband" letter already?

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12 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Did we ever had a Defender who is refusing to share the "Match Conditions" this late in the Cup Cycle? I can't remember!

What do you mean? Like bringing out a cat to "defend" against a mono?

 

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Different, LR was mad because of a new boat that was equal to all, so much that the defender lost. According to TFE Ben is mad because they had to construct a yacht without knowing the conditions of the race and use supplied material that does not work properly for him.

Why has he signed up then at all? He (Ineos, the team) did know before entering that the wind limits will be published until Dec. 20. If this is seen as an issue, why is the fracker team a participant? They could have entered SGP or any other regatta series. Tsk...

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Teams starting to come up with excuses already? or is it just their "supporters"

AB's just got smoked, so anythings possible. 

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1 hour ago, BOI Guy said:

Teams starting to come up with excuses already? or is it just their "supporters"

Holroyd from Ineos and the MIT gal from AM have brought up the subject. What better authorities are necessary?

My guess is that if the 6-month delay hadn’t happened then the B1’s would not have been launched right up against the oncoming winter for, yep, exactly those two teams. They now, after not many sailing days, have to take their B1’s to warmer climes and the sailing time lost means that less that can be learned from their B1’s than would otherwise have happened absent the delay; with key decisions for B2 due very-very soon in spite of that problem. Hard to design an ‘overall’ boat with such limited sail-time done and with conditions still being withheld.

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5 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

According to TFE Ben is mad because they had to construct a yacht without knowing the conditions of the race and use supplied material that does not work properly for him.

So we look to Tom for insights into Ben's mind? That aside, the conditions in Auckland are not some huge secret that nobody knows about except the locals and ETNZ.

1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Hard to design an ‘overall’ boat with such limited sail-time done and with conditions still being withheld.

Too early to be hitting the panic button IMO. They've either got to trust their own assumptions and see it through, or take a little inspiration from the defender and adjust accordingly. Either way, they've still got options.

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Excepted for DoG match, when is the last time we had a protocol where competitors had to build their yacht without knowing the race conditions/wind limits ? Genuine question.

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12 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@Stingray~ & @Tornado-Cat,

Did we ever had a Defender who is refusing to share the "Match Conditions" this late in the Cup Cycle? I can't remember!

Oracle waited until everyone had designed, built, tested and setup in San Fran before they got their lap dog Jethro Murray to change the wind conditions that we're more suited to their design. 

But I wouldn't expect you remember as your memory proves to be very selective from your postings.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Excepted for DoG match, when is the last time we had a protocol where competitors had to build their yacht without knowing the race conditions/wind limits ? Genuine question.

AC34 was much worse than that, the defender gave the wind limits of 3 to 30 knots so that the challengers had to make their boats strong enough to handle near storm conditions only to have the wind and wave requirements changed by the defender so that the top end was more suited to their design and the bottom end had a course that was too long to be sailed within the time limit at a wind strength of 12 knots which cost the challenger the cup.

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

AC34 was much worse than that, the defender gave the wind limits of 3 to 30 knots so that the challengers had to make their boats strong enough to handle near storm conditions only to have the wind and wave requirements changed by the defender so that the top end was more suited to their design and the bottom end had a course that was too long to be sailed within the time limit at a wind strength of 12 knots which cost the challenger the cup.

I think they changed the wind limits because it was clear that no boat could handle a capsize without being nearly written off, and a dude DIED.

i don't agree on that lighter stuff, pretty dog by oracle, but you can't seriously think that they should have raced in 30 knots 

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^ one boat had sailed in a tornado so proved it could sail in 33 knots.

Any boat not prepared or designed for those conditions needed to default.

The sailor who died, died because of faulty design and manufacture.

It was too much to the defenders advantage to believe any other reason for the reduction.  Sure the coast guard was the people who had their arms twisted to issue the demand!!

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19 minutes ago, inebriated said:

I think they changed the wind limits because it was clear that no boat could handle a capsize without being nearly written off, and a dude DIED.

i don't agree on that lighter stuff, pretty dog by oracle, but you can't seriously think that they should have raced in 30 knots 

Are you suggesting that the protocol should have been ignored and common sense should prevailed? The common sense bit seems to sound like what they are doing for AC36.

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1 hour ago, Kiwing said:

^ one boat had sailed in a tornado so proved it could sail in 33 knots.

Any boat not prepared or designed for those conditions needed to default.

The sailor who died, died because of faulty design and manufacture.

It was too much to the defenders advantage to believe any other reason for the reduction.  Sure the coast guard was the people who had their arms twisted to issue the demand!!

Bold: This, this and a hundred times this. The accident had nothing to do whatsoever with wind strength.

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7 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

AC34 was much worse than that, the defender gave the wind limits of 3 to 30 knots so that the challengers had to make their boats strong enough to handle near storm conditions only to have the wind and wave requirements changed by the defender so that the top end was more suited to their design and the bottom end had a course that was too long to be sailed within the time limit at a wind strength of 12 knots which cost the challenger the cup.

Thanks Terry, this one I know, I was there and, IMO, it changed the issue of the match and winner.

So this is an exemple of a modification of the limits within the process, we know the AC33 episode when Alinghi raced in conditions for which she had not been designed, we know the "at your own bottom" clause which achieved the same.

But do we have any modern exemple where challengers had to construct yachts without knowing the race conditions ?

 

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34 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

...................
But do we have any modern exemple where challengers had to construct yachts without knowing the race conditions ?

 

TC they only have to look up the public records to find out the wind conditions they will race in so they can construct their yachts knowing the wind conditions

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56 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

TC they only have to look up the public records to find out the wind conditions they will race in so they can construct their yachts knowing the wind conditions

Kiwing, this is the exact argument used by Oracle fans at the time, that they had designed the right boat for the SF conditions, but have seen that wind and time limits made the difference.

Challengers know the  wind conditions stats but don't if they will chose the lower, middle or higher limits.

TNZ will have to chose between wide limits to increase the possibility of TV broadcast, lower ones for safety, middle ones for close racing, or those that fit their boat best. Who knows ?
 

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TC what say they use a race time limit to define their lower limit - probably dictated by TV not them?

And they use consensus of all teams to agree on and upper limit or have none?

Would that be fair?  and this is what will happen most likely IMHO.

Scare mongers are suggesting the ETNZ will set wind limits to suit themselves.  I can not see this happening?

talk after the event to see if this is a fair defense?

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9 hours ago, Kiwing said:

It was too much to the defenders advantage to believe any other reason for the reduction. 

Nope, OR turned out to be the faster boat in the higher WS conditions.

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5 hours ago, Kiwing said:

TC what say they use a race time limit to define their lower limit - probably dictated by TV not them?

 

TV imposes time limits, then the length of the course is a disguised minimum wind limit.

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So if they sharten the race to make it finishable in the time limit then they would be acting they way I expect them to.

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17 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

Are you suggesting that the protocol should have been ignored and common sense should prevailed? The common sense bit seems to sound like what they are doing for AC36.

i think that ETNZ should set a wind limit as early as possible and then if they find out that the wind limits are too high for the boats, they consult the challengers and change it accordingly.

i don't agree with how oracle changed the wind limits completely.

i don't think that the decision was too awful to reduce the upper wind limit, after a guy dies i think something publicly has to be done to show the audience that they are taking steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.

was it the best decision? i'm not sure, maybe they could have changed the class rule some more to ensure safer boats?

i think it was a bit suspect that the change in the wind limits helped them significantly. it was clear that their boat was less suited for the extremes of the wind limits compared to ETNZ's.

do i think it was purely to save their asses come the match? no,  i think it was a bit of a knee jerk reaction after they say how hard the boats were to control on the foils in really strong winds, and how unsafe they were so they made a rule change to make it clear to the layman that they were improving the safety of the racing for the sailors. The advantage to them was a  byproduct of which they reaped the benefits.

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How many times can you say "I think" in one post?

Usually when someone comes up to me and starts off like that, my response is no you don't. And I'm pretty sure ETNZ don't give a shit about what you think either.

Maybe get someone else to think about it for you and then explain it real carefully

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19 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

Are you suggesting that the protocol should have been ignored and common sense should prevailed? The common sense bit seems to sound like what they are doing for AC36.

Take off your fanboy glasses and look at it from another view point.  If it was common sense they would release the limits and be done with it.  Ya, ya, ya, wait til December... but why not give the other teams the same info that they are already using to design their boat.  

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Because the other teams have the same wind limits as ETNZ.

They already know them.

Boy it takes thick heads a long while to get it.

@Herfy if the protocol is different to the limits Nature provides then we shall Humbly apologize and bow to your superior knowledge!

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45 minutes ago, Herfy said:

Take off your fanboy glasses and look at it from another view point.  If it was common sense they would release the limits and be done with it.  Ya, ya, ya, wait til December... but why not give the other teams the same info that they are already using to design their boat.  

Common sense (and the rules) say the RNZYS can't release wind limits until the COR agree to them, your certain it's actually ETNZ holding things up? I haven't heard the Italians putting up any numbers yet.

Common sense also says the most likely info used to design their boat is the statistical weather information and combined decades of experience sailing in Auckland, The first is something easily accessible to all other teams, the later, well unfortunately that IP common sense says is expected to be exclusive to a team.

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I'm kinda curious about all the 'interest' in the absence of declared wind limits.  Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems many see conspiracy where I see common sense.  And a greater opportunity for certainty by not racing ahead to publish untested limits.   And yes, I'm kiwi, so I probably would... but for what it's worth...

As I understand it, the requirement is to announce The Match Conditions (incl wind limits) on or before 20 Dec, 2019.  It stands to reason that if there's a known date for an announcement, then that's when the details are likely to emerge - in whatever form they may.  In the case of wind limits whether upper/lower wind strength, race length, course length/location for wind direction/strength etc.

So my question is :

Is it any better to set a limit from the outset that designers rely upon and that subsequently needs (or 'needs' as per AC35, dare I say) to be changed?

Would it be worse if that change came along mid-design, or maybe mid-build, or perhaps post-build for Boat 1?  Or any of those over for Boat 2...? 

With a new (and untested until the past month or so) design I can well imagine even the best designers didn't really know the range of conditions these vessels could safely be sailed or more to the point, raced in.  Everyone will have had a view and no doubt the simulators tell a story to those on the inside too - but getting boats on the water and putting them to the test is the one way to provide objective data concerning all the questions posed since the class rule was published - and data that can help calibrate and improve the accuracy of simulators moving forward - in turn adding to the certainty of teams designing their Boat 2's.

No matter how good the simulators are (or aren't) this is not only a new race class, but a whole new type of boat to anything before it - certainly in the AC. And even the best designers with the best simulators will have learned much about how to better calibrate their simulators over the past month or so. And perhaps which design directions to head in for the boat 2's they're no doubt working hard on now. We've all read all manner of theories here and elsewhere of what would happen to AC75's in sub-5 knots or over 15/20/25/30 knot winds, most of them by (probably) well meaning individuals but equally by people exercising their sense of impending doom or adrenalin-fueled excitement over the prospect of AC36 in these boats. What the last month has shown is just how wide of the mark most of us were, in so many ways.

Hell, maybe the December date for the match conditions means each team can have an active voice in that discussion to help frame wind limits collectively (I know, I know :)) but that would mitigate the stench that some see this issue being. And for all that, the more we see of these boats flying, and the rate at which the teams are bringing these new charges into a fuller sense of their capabilities with each sail, the more one can see that wind limits may not be upper/lower at all - but be framed in other ways.

To me, the experience derived in these boats from launch to December - and the discussion no doubt being had among the syndicates in the background meantime, are the basis for arriving at robust match conditions that will hopefully bear scrutiny over time and deal with challenges without the need for wholesale change of any condition between announcement and the match coming to its conclusion.

 

 

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3 hours ago, BOI Guy said:

How many times can you say "I think" in one post?

Usually when someone comes up to me and starts off like that, my response is no you don't. And I'm pretty sure ETNZ don't give a shit about what you think either.

 Maybe get someone else to think about it for you and then explain it real carefully

fuck off sock

let me give you a tip, nobody gives a shit about anything said on here

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2 hours ago, Herfy said:

Take off your fanboy glasses and look at it from another view point.  If it was common sense they would release the limits and be done with it.  Ya, ya, ya, wait til December... but why not give the other teams the same info that they are already using to design their boat.  

this

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The decision about which course to designate is likely one made by the RC on race day (fair enough) but which course gets selected could play a ‘conditions’ role too, right?
In SF and Bermuda there was some course variability but not nearly as much as what these 5 in the Gulf depict. 

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On 10/29/2019 at 3:52 AM, Stingray~ said:

The decision about which course to designate is likely one made by the RC on race day (fair enough) but which course gets selected could play a ‘conditions’ role too, right?
In SF and Bermuda there was some course variability but not nearly as much as what these 5 in the Gulf depict. 

There's only so many race course variations to choose from on a lake.

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On 10/28/2019 at 11:52 PM, Stingray~ said:

The decision about which course to designate is likely one made by the RC on race day (fair enough) but which course gets selected could play a ‘conditions’ role too, right?
In SF and Bermuda there was some course variability but not nearly as much as what these 5 in the Gulf depict. 

This is a good thing.

There are 5 courses available to an independent body to select to try and ensure good racing occurs on as many possible days.

They are simply trying to provide as many good days racing as possible with the least number of missed days.

There is not some magic feature of one course versus another, other than the fact racing will tend to be in conditions closer to the statistical averages for Auckland because you can always try and pick the course likely to have the most consistent wind.

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1 hour ago, Boybland said:

There are 5 courses available to an independent body to select to try and ensure good racing occurs on as many possible days.

They are simply trying to provide as many good days racing as possible with the least number of missed days.

There is not some magic feature of one course versus another, other than the fact racing will tend to be in conditions closer to the statistical averages for Auckland because you can always try and pick the course likely to have the most consistent wind.

The problem is to know the criteria of selection of the "independant body":

- maximise the number of racing days ?

- chose the course with the most consistent wind ?

- chose the safer course ?

- chose the course with most wind ?

- chose the course with waves ? flat water ?

They have all rights to chose one or a few but it should be made public by dec 20th otherwise they will favour one boat or another depending of the criteria they chose.

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Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

The problem is to know the criteria of selection of the "independant body":

- maximise the number of racing days ?

- chose the course with most consistent wind ?

- chose the safer course ?

- chose the course with most wind ?

- chose the course with waves ? flat water ?

They have all rights to chose one or a few but it should be made public by dec 20th otherwise they will favour one boat or another depending of the criteria they chose.

Safe to say the top two are probably the priority and are pretty much the same thing in most cases anyway.

With considerations for number 3 on very windy days, but it won't be the safest course every time, it would be a safe course that satisfies 1 & 2.

Neither of the last two are likely to be taken into consideration unless they impact the first three.

This is an independent body who's only real job is to ensure racing occurs as often and consistently as possible, the results of their decisions will be pretty much the same for everybody.

90% of the time the choice is only going to be between two courses anyway due to the fact they are on 90 degree offsets and clearly for different wind directions.

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2 hours ago, Boybland said:

Safe to say the top two are probably the priority and are pretty much the same thing in most cases anyway.

With considerations for number 3 on very windy days, but it won't be the safest course every time, it would be a safe course that satisfies 1 & 2.

Neither of the last two are likely to be taken into consideration unless they impact the first three.

This is an independent body who's only real job is to ensure racing occurs as often and consistently as possible, the results of their decisions will be pretty much the same for everybody.

90% of the time the choice is only going to be between two courses anyway due to the fact they are on 90 degree offsets and clearly for different wind directions.

Well said.

I think some people here forget that Auckland has been an AC arena before. All of these teams will have done their due dilligence on expected conditions. There is a ton of historical data to work out the regular norms  as well as the distribution of the Bell shaped curve.

The most important part is that Auckland does not have super stable (contintental) type of weather patterns - so variability is a given.

Correct, this is not San Fran or San Diego where stability or predictability in weather patterns are more dominant.

But the hand wringing and underlying theme that this is some Machiavellian plot by the defenders to develop a 132 year old hold of the trophy is not appropriate.

So there is stuff you dont like, or dont agree with; and a shit load of stuff you dont understand or are not privvy to - Well, go out win the Cup and then you can be arbiter of what will or wont happen in the next cycle......  

The Challengers understand those principles, so maybe more people around here should as well.

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So Grant Simmer has been stirring this particular pot, now that they’ve seen the other boats, and suggested that ETNZ (and Prada?) are going to manipulate the wind limits to avoid racing in light airs. He’s clear in suggesting that the INEOS and AM boats have a wider wind range. 
 

So, before the limits are agreed and announced, what represents a fair wind range, now that we’ve seen the boats sailing in a range of conditions?

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3 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

So Grant Simmer has been stirring this particular pot, now that they’ve seen the other boats, and suggested that ETNZ (and Prada?) are going to manipulate the wind limits to avoid racing in light airs. He’s clear in suggesting that the INEOS and AM boats have a wider wind range. 
 

So, before the limits are agreed and announced, what represents a fair wind range, now that we’ve seen the boats sailing in a range of conditions?

The best videos we have so far are amateur vids of ETNZ and they seem to foil in only 8 knots but we’ve not seen them do air-born tacks in that light a breeze so far. We’ve also seen them sailing well with a J1 in around 25 knots, with minimal splash downs. My guess is they can perform very well from 8 to 25?

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My two cents,

I think the boats should be able to race as low as 5 knots, although the tidal and topographic aspects of Auckland Harbour mean that racing could get pretty shitty.  A time limit and some measurement of wind stability becomes pretty important, making it complex and confusing from a telecast point of view. 7-8 knots probably starts to mark a point where racing is fair.

 

The only reason I see for an upper limit is safety. Given the flat water they can use (particularly in the back paddock), I don’t think we’ve seen any reason why they can’t go as high as 30knots.  Maybe 25 steady with gusts above?  Again, the topography of Auckland means that it might get pretty puffy, but they have the option to move around if the conditions are expected to be at the high end.

So, start in an average of 7, with a time limit (no wind stability measure) and anything under 25 that doesn’t have gusts above 32.

I’ll probably be as equally wrong as the rest of you.

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3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

5 knots! LOL. They wouldn't get their Hull out of the water in 5 knots. Maybe the Cats would but certainly not these Monos. 7-8 knots seems reasonable to me.

They can apparently in 6 knots of breeze, and these are B1. They may very well lift out in 5 knots by the time B2 comes out of the shed.

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7 - 8 is too high for ETNZ, you don't optomise for early lift off and then negate that entirely by picking conditions everyone can easily foil in!

5 knots seems much more likely to me for a lower limit.

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If they are ALL falling off the foils then the one fastest to keep going and get back up...

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26 minutes ago, Boybland said:

7 - 8 is too high for ETNZ, you don't optomise for early lift off and then negate that entirely by picking conditions everyone can easily foil in!

5 knots seems much more likely to me for a lower limit.

But Grant Simmer says that his boat is better optimised first light airs. So 7-8 would be fine, right?

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46 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

5 knots! LOL. They wouldn't get their Hull out of the water in 5 knots. Maybe the Cats would but certainly not these Monos. 7-8 knots seems reasonable to me.

Why is racing in displacement mode out of the question?

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48 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

How do you gybe or tack in displacement mode? Please tell us!

Typically by turning the wheel. That turns the rudder (which is the back one) and the flow of the water around the rudder turns the boat. 
 

Sorry, I’d clearly over estimated you. 

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7 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

The best videos we have so far are amateur vids of ETNZ and they seem to foil in only 8 knots but we’ve not seen them do air-born tacks in that light a breeze so far. We’ve also seen them sailing well with a J1 in around 25 knots, with minimal splash downs. My guess is they can perform very well from 8 to 25?

What does it matter? If one design proves to be better at the transition it will win races if the others are struggling, but yacht design being what it is it will probably be slower at some other situation.  Even Oracle won a race at Bermuda when it found conditions where it was faster.

The variable conditions that take place in Auckland will ensure that all strengths will have a chance.

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7 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

So, before the limits are agreed and announced, what represents a fair wind range, now that we’ve seen the boats sailing in a range of conditions?

The only fair wind limits would have been to tell all the teams before designing B1.

Now, the most equal would be to let the weather condition decide, which means 4 kts to 30, or 4 to 25 with gust up to 32.

Safety would be under each team responsability with the choice of racing or not with their design. They could take the risk or winning or breaking, that is the spirit of ocean races.

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The only fair wind limits would have been to tell all the teams before designing B1.

Now, the most equal would be to let the weather condition decide, which means 4 kts to 30, or 4 to 25 with gust up to 32.

Safety would be under each team responsability with the choice of racing or not with their design. They could take the risk or winning or breaking, that is the spirit of ocean races.

Damn, 5,000 judges out of work, and we get another judge and jury.

Don't quit your day job pepe.

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14 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Now, the most equal would be to let the weather condition decide, which means 4 kts to 30, or 4 to 25 with gust up to 32.

4 knots seems a bit low, but otherwise, I’d be happy with that.

 

15 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Safety would be under each team responsability with the choice of racing or not with their design. They could take the risk or winning or breaking, that is the spirit of ocean races.

Yip, I’d agree with that (without the spelling mistake), but then I suspect it will be generally accepted that no one will pull out of racing, and some safety limits will be put in place.  Nothing less than the 25 gushing 32 though.

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

4 knots seems a bit low, but otherwise, I’d be happy with that.

 

Yip, I’d agree with that (without the spelling mistake), but then I suspect it will be generally accepted that no one will pull out of racing, and some safety limits will be put in place.  Nothing less than the 25 gushing 32 though.

Really I think that's a bad idea. Remember last cycle, the limits may have been too high. Dalton braved the huge fine to say the boats were overpowered.  Bits falling off, more survival than sailing. Nathan running off the course becausE he couldn't tack the boat. The sail plan is set in stone, let the cor/d decide with input from the teams. Ocean sailing makes folk take some smart risk assessment decisions, especially with no rescue available. It would be a bad look to

A: set limits so high there was an accident (close in bda)

B: set them too low for good racing (SF)

C: set them high and then have to drop them (SF)

There has been very little grumbling except on here, obviously low wind performance will be key with only having a superficial knowledge of the venue. The one foil fits all conditions clause will dictate most design choices.

 

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6 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Haha, the NZ Thread is gone!:D

It's irresponsible to race the AC 75 in 25+ knots.

Indeed it is, because you chose to out another poster in that thread.
Thanks mate, great effort for the whole community.
Your "haha" speaks volumes...

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One would assume we'll know the wind limits in about three weeks:

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Just now, axolotl said:

One would assume we'll know the wind limits in about three weeks:

Clipboard01.thumb.gif.fbc621cb2d00bdd133240a60443631b6.gif

Apparently thats unfair.

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2 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Given how the Defender & Challenger of Record have operated thus far we will just get a cryptic Press Release if we even get one.

Good.

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Just now, dg_sailingfan said:

There is a general lack of Information & Transperancy during the AC36 Cycle by the Defender & the Challenger of Record.

It reminds me a little bit of the last Volvo. Everyone kind of knew what happened to Vestas 11th Hour Racing with that Fishing Boat in the approach to Hong Kong but it took Volvo Days to answer calls what would happen next and if they would be able to race Leg 6. The Volvo Media stayed completely silent and most of Race Fans has to search for Press Articles because of the lack of Information.

And we're experiencing the same here somwhat with the 36th AC Cycle.

Lack of information to who? Do you know exactly what the teams have/ haven't been told? No. So you have no idea how transparent the communication lines are. The AC is a need to know basis. SA doesn't need to know.

Guess what... Sailing Anarchy is an internet forum. No matter how important you think you are...You aren't. Daniel Gruhn is a nobody, you don't need to know.

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11 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

There is a general lack of Information & Transperancy during the AC36 Cycle by the Defender & the Challenger of Record.

It reminds me a little bit of the last Volvo. Everyone kind of knew what happened to Vestas 11th Hour Racing with that Fishing Boat in the approach to Hong Kong but it took Volvo Days to answer calls what would happen next and if they would be able to race Leg 6. The Volvo Media stayed completely silent and most of Race Fans has to search for Press Articles because of the lack of Information.

And we're experiencing the same here somwhat with the 36th AC Cycle.

Yip. It’s just like that time when someone died. 

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Just now, dg_sailingfan said:

If I am unimportant so are you.

Even Sailing Fans need some planning. For starters I am considering attending the ACWS in Portsmouth (if that ever gets publicly confirmed) in June and have to plan my vacation/holidays accordingly. I can't just wave my hand to the CEO of the Company I work for and say "I'm going on vacation. I'm seeing you in two weeks". But the apparent lack of Info makes it increasingly hard to make any plans.

Yes, I am. But I'm not the one complaining about not knowing anything. Jesus, June is 7 months away. If you can't plan 7 months out, thats your problem, and its nothing to do with the AC. Its already been confirmed for the end of June...FFS there's plenty of time, so stop blaming everyone else for your 1) not having a life outside the AC, and 2) Your inability to plan your life. Thats your responsibility, not the Defenders.

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12 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

If I am unimportant so are you.

Even Sailing Fans need some planning. For starters I am considering attending the ACWS in Portsmouth (if that ever gets publicly confirmed) in June and have to plan my vacation/holidays accordingly. I can't just wave my hand to the CEO of the Company I work for and say "I'm going on vacation. I'm seeing you in two weeks". But the apparent lack of Info makes it increasingly hard to make any plans.

I wouldn’t take it so personally if I were you. 

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

Indeed it is, because you chose to out another poster in that thread.
Thanks mate, great effort for the whole community.
Your "haha" speaks volumes...

WTF happen? 

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14 minutes ago, Herfy said:

WTF happen? 

There was a post which supposedly showed the identity and (Facebook?) page and photo of a poster here. 
 

Whether or not that’s the reason why the thread was pulled, I don’t know. 

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2 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Why shouldn't I? This guy continues to get onto me for the last 2 years.

Only our thin-skinned Kiwi friends are allowed to out people or take shit personally. Get with the fucking program.

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3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Why shouldn't I? This guy continues to get onto me for the last 2 years.

No, I meant that you shouldn’t take it personally that they haven’t publicised dates, just to screw with your holiday. 

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6 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

There was a post which supposedly showed the identity and (Facebook?) page and photo of a poster here. 
 

Whether or not that’s the reason why the thread was pulled, I don’t know. 

Can't they just purge the info, reopen the thread and ban the offender?  What if the point of an AC thread if we don't have a discussion on the NZ team?

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29 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

No, it hasn't. I'm not putting a huge stock in what a certain Richard Gladwell is saying as he has been wrong numerous times before.

Speaking of Wind Limits: They haven't even confirmed the "Limits" for the ACWS next year and we've just have 4 1/2 months to the 1st Race in Cagliari.

Is it stipulated in the protocol that they must? If not, who cares.

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3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

LOL, Racing a Series without Wind Limits is quite something!

You may be new this but not all regattas have wind limits.

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What about e.g. 2003 or 2007. Were there wind limits in the protocol, or did racing/cancelation depend on the RC decision?

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The original DoG requirement to sail the yacht there on her own bottom probably obviated a DoG wind limit requirement. (And yes I know that's past.) :)

 

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1 minute ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Yes, but that was a DoG Match. Ya can't throw that into a Multi-Challenger Event. Every multi-challenge modern AC dating back to 1983 when Australia II won it had Wind Limits.

Could you provide evidence?

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54 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Only our thin-skinned Kiwi friends are allowed to out people or take shit personally. Get with the fucking program.

Rightly or wrongly, outing people is one of the cardinal sins at SA... the rules apply to everyone... unless you out yourself by using your full real name

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2 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Indeed it is, because you chose to out another poster in that thread.
Thanks mate, great effort for the whole community.
Your "haha" speaks volumes...

I suspect the thread will return once the post as been reviewed and edited...

I also suspect some poor Vater will be trying to understand why their son is desperate to suddenly change to a new internet service provider...

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2 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@Rennmaus,

AC32 (Valencia) had a Wind Limit of 8 to 22 Knots for the last Round of the IACC Yachts.

I haven't found any evidence for this statement either.
Nor for AC31, but I am still looking for the protocols and SIs.
IIRC, it was the RC that decided whether to race or not, and there were no pre-agreed, written limits. But I may be wrong, that's why I want to have a proof.

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Wind limits are an excuse. An excuse to find something...anything to bitch about. Fact of the matter is, the protocol states when the wind limits must be announced. That date has not yet come around.

If teams are waiting on that announcement before designing their boat 2, they will have put themselves well behind. 

If the teams learned anything from 2013, its wind limits, whether high or low, can and have been changed in the past, therefor, it is a futile exercise to design your boat to a specified wind range which may change as was proved with "The Tractor". She was originally designed for the stipulated 5 knots to 33 knot range specified in the protocol, and once the goal posts shifted, she no longer was fit for purpose, and from then on had to make the best of a bad situation, which is exactly how Kevin Shoebridge spoke of that campaign and that series as being "a car crash in slow motion" they got out in front and then tried to stay there, but the longer the series went on, the more the writing was on the wall. They had a boat which was slower than their opposition. Whether the Oracle AC72 could withstand the 5 knots to 33 knots in the protocol has been debated, but both teams nose-dived that cycle. One bounced back up and finished the race, the other was significantly damaged and was out of action for a long time.

Wind limits are irrelevant to the teams. They always have been. Case and point in Bermuda, Oracle knew the wind limits, but they didn't design to them, and neither did ETNZ, they designed to the optimal condition they thought was prevalent in Bermuda, which was light air, then had to survive the top end, Something which proved too difficult for them in the Semi Final. 

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

You may be new this but not all regattas have wind limits.

Wrong.  All regattas have wind limits; either there's no wind at all so no boats can cross the start line,  or it's so windy the committee boat cannot set the start line (or even leave the dock).

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15 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

You are wrong once again. The Rules of AC36 are vastly different compared to AC34 and AC35. In 2013 & 2017 during the Cup Racing Period on the Off Days you could go back to the Teams Lab and try to find a way to make your Boat go faster. That is thrown out of the window. The configuation for the Match (6th to 21st March 2021) is set and you have to live with it and all the consequences that come with it.

Here is what INEOS Chief Designer Nick Holroyd said in a published Interview on the Teams Website September 7th:

NH: One of the things that is going to be really difficult about this boat is the fact that we can’t make any changes during the Cup racing period. This is a big change to the rules of the last Cup where we all got used to the paradigm of designing foils specifically for a condition or a rig specifically for a condition. This time we are going to be fixed and, you know, five days before the Cup we will have to define our configuration and that is going to get us through the entire Cup. The Cup’s a ten-day window and so you talk about sort of 15 days out, there is no way you can forecast weather across that time scale. 

So actually what is hard about this boat is trying to make it the kind of all-purpose boat that goes well in every condition. To identify what are the key aspects of the boat that goes well in light air, what are the key aspects of a boat that will go well in the average wind speed in Auckland, and how do I still go well and survive in really breezy conditions? Those are some of the hardest trade-offs we will make.

Holroyd is basically contracting everything you said here. With these sort of Cup Rules particular on Wind Limits it's in a way impossible for any Challenger to have a shot winning this thing. To design a Boat for a 15 Day-Period is almost impossible to do as eluded by Holroyd and that's why INEOS is probably so eager to find out what the Wind Limits look like and so do other Challengers.

Thats because in 2013, the rule was basically wide open. Coupled with a seemingly bottomless budget, Oracle were able to make wholesale changes to their boat in between racing. In 2017, the rule was so tight, that wholesale changes weren't able to be made in between racing, which is why stealth worked for ETNZ in Bermuda. That had nothing to do with wind limits, and everything to do with (in the case of Oracle) possible overconfidence and mistakes made early on in the campaign. 

You quote Nick Holroyd, and not taking anything away from the guy, as he is a great designer, but he was also the guy who said when asked about upwind foiling in 2013 "I don't think thats something we're necessarily looking very hard at" - it turned out it was the very area where Oracle was able to pass them in, both in design and on the race course.

You say "To design a boat for a 15 day period is almost impossible" - Turned out ETNZ did exactly that! And thats the difference between winning and losing isn't it! One team says its impossible, the other team goes and makes the impossible possible.

When the first photo's came out of the ETNZ AC72 foiling in Auckland, no one thought it was possible, and everyone thought the photo was photoshopped, when infact it wasn't, and now foiling is just part of sailing. When the idea of a foiling monohull was proposed, most thought it too wasn't possible, and now there are 4 of them.

When the bikes were introduced Oracle said "The system won't pay for itself" - turned out it very much did pay for itself.

 

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6 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

So,

Are you saying that ETNZ didn't go back to their Lab during AC35 in Bermuda and looked how to match Oracle? Unbelievable!

With these sort of AC Match Rules there is no way a Challenger can win this when you even can't change the moding of the Boats in between Race Weekends.

You can basically say "Congrats Emirates Team New Zealand for winning the 36th America's Cup" here.

Remember the whole thing about "Taking days off" After the first week, Jimmy at the presser after the 5 day gap said "Ya know, we saw these guys taking days off and we made a commitment inside the team to use all of the time we could to make the boat faster" so obviously the Kiwi's felt confident about where they were sitting at that stage. If they felt they were behind, or felt they weren't fast enough, they certainly would not have given the team some days off, and if they did, the team certainly would not have taken them.

What the Kiwi's did in the shed for those 5 days, no one except them will know, but when Jimmy brought up the "taking days off" spiel Pete fired back and said "it was an opportunity for the Shore crew to get on top of a job list"

Moral of the story is you may not be able to build new things, but you CAN change the way you sail, and you can change the modes of the boat in between, but ultimately, as it always is, the winner of the Cup is very much defined by the decisions made early on in the campaign. And that was no better proved than in Bermuda. 

No one can say for certain yet who is going to win this time. We haven't seen any boat 2's launched yet, so just shut up with your conspiracy theories, because they've all been debunked. Every single one of them.

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12 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Quite to the contrary. Your Theories have been debunked always.

I now can fully understand why Grant Simmer, Nick Holroyd and presumbly the American Magic Designers as well want these Wind Limits ASAP.

Your Theory that you're well behind if you're waiting for the Wind Limits has already being debunked.

The B2's of the Challengers won't hit the Auckland Water until October 2020 at the earliest, maybe even later meaning you can wait until the Wind Limits are released before start building B2.

During AC32 Valencia the 4 Superteams (Alinghi, BMW Oracle, Luna Rossa and ETNZ) didn't launch their 2nd Generation of IACC v5 Boats until March 2007.

"Your Theories have been debunked always" just because you say something doesn't make it true.

I'm sure you can understand because all you've ever done is bag this whole cycle and everything about it since the start, from the boats, to the teams, to the venue, to pretty much everyone involved in the AC being useless and/ or a liar to safety to now this...the wind limits.

Genius, you have to design a boat before you build a boat. Which means if you're building to the wind limits, you have to design to them first. If the wind limits are as key to the design phase as you say they are, then surely you'd have to wait to for the wind limits to design the boat...right? - Debunked. 

Thats because the IACC rule was nearing the end of its development evolution. The teams were looking for tenths of a knot instead of 1,2,3,4 + knots gain.

The polars and targets and optimal performance of the IACC class was well known by then. 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Read what Holroyd said. The guy has a very good Point. Grant Simmer maybe right after all that ETNZ is trying to manipulate the Wind Limits.

???  Um, my point was no matter the wind limits no regatta race will start in calm (0kn) wind conditions, and no race will start if the Committee boat cannot set a start line because of extreme conditions.  Is that not true?  Maybe you were responding to another's post.

Concerning what Holroyd said of course the Defender will delay the no race wind limits definition to gain boat design advantage prior to declaring the windspeed limits.  It's only three weeks before the wind limits are declared so boat #2 can be optimized for them.  His point is that no configuration changes during the Cup races is a game changer, which I agree with.  Fundamentally the AC is (was?) a development class.  If you meet the Class Rule for each race,  you should be able to mod between each race for the next day's expected conditions (subject to equipment cost saving restrictions).  Not good.

The windspeed Conditions are important, but I suspect a low of 5-8kn and a high of 25-30kn will be published soon, and all the competitors have  suspected this.  So it's a non issue.

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1 minute ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Richard Gladwell, the Chief Editor of Sail World NZ said in a Post a couple of months ago that there might be no Wind Limit at all. Hope that's not true.

I totally agree with you that the AC is a Development Boat (Class) and Race and it should stay that way. For the AC Match in Auckland 2021 we will be restricted and that's bad. I guess ETNZ wanted to eliminate the big jumps OTUSA made in San Fran 2013.

.

Yup, that's a bad thing.  These foiling monohulls with soft sails  and very restricted appendages rules limit innovation, but I suspect some competitors may find an edge.  We shall see.  I was stunned the cyclers were a big advantage last Cup but that a was human powered only Cup system so they prevailed.  Now they'll have Li-Ion batteries for foil transitions, and God knows what else.

Personally, the last pure Cup was decades ago where the crew powered the boat, no exceptions.  It's a sailboat race,  not a powerboat race.  But I'm old school.

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4 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

When I have time I will. It's tough to get to old Documents so it may take some considerable time.

Sounds good. We want to make sure you get this right. Don’t hurry. 

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12 hours ago, rh3000 said:

I suspect the thread will return once the post as been reviewed and edited...

I also suspect some poor Vater will be trying to understand why their son is desperate to suddenly change to a new internet service provider...

But there's only one huge troll with special English deficiencies...actually two but only one is a toddlertoddler.

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15 hours ago, Herfy said:

Come clean, did you out someone?  Man up if you did.

Yes, he did. 

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6 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@Herfy,

Yes, I admit it. I did out Forourselves.

Partly because For repeatedly personally attacked me, call me an idiot and other things, outed me in before Richard Gladwell when I just had this honest conversation with him a couple of months ago see here:

 

 

Well you're a fucking moron.

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29 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@Herfy,

Yes, I admit it. I did out Forourselves.

Partly because For repeatedly personally attacked me, call me an idiot and other things, outed me in before Richard Gladwell when I just had this honest conversation with him a couple of months ago see here:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/209387-the-americas-cup-world-series-2020/&do=findComment&comment=6716520

I'm not going to tolerate Personal Attacks from that guy anymore so it was a bit out of Revenge.

And I also fire out a Warning to the User r