eurochild

Wind Limits - Where are they

Recommended Posts

(I've harped on about this in a couple of team threads but it's not really team specific)

You can make the case that the AC75 class is a bit mad, and that the class and other factors have lead to reduced participation in AC36, some delays in schedule, and so on. However that aside, the regatta seems to be being planned in a reasonably straightforward and above board sort of way. (Could be a bit of NZ bias there - but bear with me, criticism to follow...)

I can't understand how we've got this far without wind limits being defined.

The story as I understand it

- even if wind limits are defined, AC design is often perceived as a gamble on wind. With the boats often being so close in design, guessing which end of the range to design for is often made out to be of critical importance.

- wind in Auckland in summer isn't that predictable at the best of times

- with the AC75 class, assumptions about time spent in displacement vs transition vs foiling may mean that wind range has an even greater impact on design. The variation in boat 1 designs doesn't do this theory any harm

- it seems to be conventional wisdom that due to build duration, the teams would currently be well into designing their race boats. There's the Dalton quote that gets thrown around that the winning decisions have probably already been made.

- ETNZ have been sailing their boat in low wind, including with a code zero. Some say they are trying to establish a viable lower limit for foiling.

- commentary on this situation from the other teams seems a bit muted. There's a comment from Nick Holroyd in this article, but he hardly seems to be panicking about it; https://mailchi.mp/tipandshaft/tip-shaft-45-nholroyd-everybody-is-watching-everybody-how-the-organisers-of-the-vende-globe-expanded-the-list-of-registered-skippers?e=e564adae35 . From the situation above, I'd think that the other teams would be well within their rights to nudge ETNZ along with a bit of a moan.

- discussion is mostly about what's the viable lower limit to avoid a displacement drift-fest. There's also the question of how high you can go without either making these boats significantly more dangerous or damage prone, or expanding the range enough that the design becomes even more of a gamble.

So, my question is, how to square this circle. 1. The limits seem crucial to design. 2. There are no limits yet and second boats are in progress. 3. The other teams aren't visibly up in arms.

What's missing here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anybody team who wants wind limits needs to take their boat out in over 20 knots and share with the group how dangerous it is.  There is literally zero on data on this at the moment making it pretty much impossible to decide on a safe upper limit without being overly conservative and thereby benefiting designs aiming for lower wind performance.

The last thing we want is a repeat of the 33 knots suddenly becomes 23 knots because some teams can't (or choose not to) design safe boats fiasco from San Francisco!!

  • Like 3
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a NE of 33 knots in the Hauraki Gulf the waves are very large but if you move to the "back paddock" the conditions would be quite acceptable.

In a SW at 33 knots in the Hauraki Gulf the waves are much smaller so you would choose your race track based on the tidal flow and you would avoid Rangitoto Channel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to Gladwell there are unlikely to be wind limits. Instead they'll just move to a different course if it is too high or too low. How that will exactly be determined is a bit of a mystery. In the protocol there is something about not be able to change your boat once the regatta starts. This should encourage teams to build a good all around boat, not one designed for a particular extreme in conditions. The skiff designs seem to fit that criteria better than the scows IMO.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

According to Gladwell there are unlikely to be wind limits. Instead they'll just move to a different course if it is too high or too low. How that will exactly be determined is a bit of a mystery. In the protocol there is something about not be able to change your boat once the regatta starts. This should encourage teams to build a good all around boat, not one designed for a particular extreme in conditions. The skiff designs seem to fit that criteria better than the scows IMO.

there has to be some sort of wind limits

what if it's going 50 knots?

it's never sailable then

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, inebriated said:

what if it's going 50 knots?

On the most sheltered course (back paddock) it would be very hard to get that sort of wind speed, unless conditions were uber freakish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just set the rules that both teams need to mutually agree to cancel a race. There won't be two teams agreeing except if the conditions are really unsuitable for sailing.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Along with the proximity to public, consideration has been given to minimising race day cancellations due to too much wind or swell as was seen in the 34th America’s Cup in San Francisco.  The course area, directly between Eastern Beach and Waiheke Island provides a sheltered, all wind direction race course and was the training ground of Emirates Team New Zealand for their successful 35th America’s Cup challenge in Bermuda."

ETNZ have been sailing in this area in the last two days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Silly from Gladwell. The Match Conditions according to the AC Protocol Section 18 have to be known to all Teams before or on 20th of December 2019 which obviously includes the Wind Limits.

Stupid fucking Gladwell.  He's so dumb.  I don't care if Nick Holroyd has come out publicly and said he doesn't know the wind limits. Everyone knows the wind limits! 

They were published on the 20th of December, 201.... Oh.hang on....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Stupid fucking Gladwell.  He's so dumb.  I don't care if Nick Holroyd has come out publicly and said he doesn't know the wind limits. Everyone knows the wind limits! 

They were published on the 20th of December, 201.... Oh.hang on....

That's the point.

Why is thread even in existence?

The due date for publication of the wind limits is the 20th of December. That's been known for ages, it's not some new announcement. All the teams know this it's not some new attempt to screw anyone over.

So everyone is just going to have to wait.

Patience grasshopper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, inebriated said:

there has to be some sort of wind limits

what if it's going 50 knots?

it's never sailable then

Exactly, so thats a pretty silly question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The Match Conditions according to the AC Protocol Section 18 have to be known to all Teams before or on 20th of December 2019 which obviously includes the Wind Limits.

Thanks for the pointer. That text is here:

image.png.420e9d2d2374ac2130dfbd19e4c894d1.png

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eQ2K8qXKCneH6UsLoXTWXgqZ-YH1i6H9/view

Section 18 then talks about Challenger Series conditions being a variation of these.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Boybland said:

Anybody team who wants wind limits needs to take their boat out in over 20 knots and share with the group how dangerous it is.  There is literally zero on data on this at the moment making it pretty much impossible to decide on a safe upper limit without being overly conservative and thereby benefiting designs aiming for lower wind performance.

The last thing we want is a repeat of the 33 knots suddenly becomes 23 knots because some teams can't (or choose not to) design safe boats fiasco from San Francisco!!

I call Bullsh!t.  

So the models and simulator have enough data to design an entirely new class of boat, but they don't have any idea what will happen when the winds exceed 20 knots?  That is ridiculous.  

And don't be playing innocent or naive with the reason for the changes in SF.  A sailor died!  Being arrogant of your "superior design" and inferring that it was intentional is repulsive.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

According to Gladwell there are unlikely to be wind limits. Instead they'll just move to a different course if it is too high or too low. How that will exactly be determined is a bit of a mystery. In the protocol there is something about not be able to change your boat once the regatta starts. This should encourage teams to build a good all around boat, not one designed for a particular extreme in conditions. The skiff designs seem to fit that criteria better than the scows IMO.

But there should be rules or guidelines on what would cause them to change and when.  Otherwise, it is just a game of the home team changing to what ever course best suits their boat based upon the conditions that day.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Herfy said:

there should be rules or guidelines on what would cause them to change and when.

Sure, you'd think their would some sort of guidelines. The independent race committee I'd expect would be making those decisions and not the defender.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ETNZ's 72 sailed through a tornado? but it could not safely sail above 20 knots I call Bullshit !!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

20 hours ago, Lakrass said:

Just set the rules that both teams need to mutually agree to cancel a race. There won't be two teams agreeing except if the conditions are really unsuitable for sailing.

That doesn't really work does it? It will just end up in brinksmanship.

i.e. "I reckon my boat will drift faster than yours" or "I reckon your boat will break before mine".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Woolfy said:

All the teams know this it's not some new attempt to screw anyone over.

So everyone is just going to have to wait.

Patience grasshopper.

We as SA readers can wait.

The problem is that the challengers are 1 1/2 boats into a 2 boat design process that costs tens of millions of dollars, and they won't know their wind range target for up to 2 more months. 

Meanwhile ETNZ may have a pretty good idea about what the rules will be and what they are designing to. (Edit: And can anyway just frame the range to suit their boat.)

If I was a designer on a challenger I don't think I'd be feeling too patient, and would possibly be feeling a bit screwed over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

not as screwed over as having them change when you are already at the finals venue and are happy with the existing ones

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

What are the wind limits for VOR?

IIRC, the start in Auckland was postponed in about 35kn, for logistical reasons.

What I've heard is that once in the southern ocean, the real pro's batten down the hatches at 50kn sharp.

1447882450_giphy(2).gif.8ef6f03c144ebb739cc956a230524fe3.gif

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Herfy said:

I call Bullsh!t.  

So the models and simulator have enough data to design an entirely new class of boat, but they don't have any idea what will happen when the winds exceed 20 knots?  That is ridiculous.  

And don't be playing innocent or naive with the reason for the changes in SF.  A sailor died!  Being arrogant of your "superior design" and inferring that it was intentional is repulsive.

Your mentioning an event that had two seperate major incidents one involving a fatalilty both involving boats that clearly couldn't deal with anything close to the set wind limits while simultaneously argueing it is impossible not to know how a brand new high performance class of yacht will perform in heavier conditions.

I call bullshit on your I call bullshit.

We have four completely different designs to the same rule, how does the ETNZ simulator for example know how the INEOS boat performs in 30 knots?  The answer is it doesn't, in fact it probably doesn't even know anything close to 100% how the ETNZ boat will perform, sure it might know how fast it will be in ideal or predictable conditions, the weather rarely plays that game fairly though.

You either pick a conservative boat (bit late for that now) or set a really conservative limit or you get some real world data first.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Herfy said:

And don't be playing innocent or naive with the reason for the changes in SF.  A sailor died!  Being arrogant of your "superior design" and inferring that it was intentional is repulsive.

I don't think he meant intentional-criminally liable. The blue boat was under strength for a foiling boat. There was a consultation with all teams contributing load test data. This was then used to bring the blue boat up to these standards (presumably). All boats then were sailed without structural mishap. The accident was terrible.

This could be some of the reasoning behind one designing the arms. Big responsibility, but 3x over working loads should be ok.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm interested.  If this group were to set wind limits today, what would show that there was no bias in the decision making process?

If the defender and challenger mutually agreed 0-25knots with a 25 minute time limit, does that unfairly advantage anyone?  If it does, what limits would be fair?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

I'm interested.  If this group were to set wind limits today, what would show that there was no bias in the decision making process?

If the defender and challenger mutually agreed 0-25knots with a 25 minute time limit, does that unfairly advantage anyone?  If it does, what limits would be fair?

Any wind limit now may be considered suspicious as the defender may have known it in advance, it should have been given before designing the boat.

However, now other competitors had to design a yacht for all wind possibilities, 0-30 kts +  a  time limit would be the fairest. The length of the race should be ajusted to allow to finish it in 4 kts of wind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I One-Thousand Percent agree with you here. I'm still very suspicious about this new Class of Boat. I stated in numerous Threads here on SA even before they got completed (The Boats I mean) that I think it's UNSAFE to sail these Boats above 25 Knots.

So, before a brand new class of boat was even built, you knew enough about them to decide that they would be unsafe above 25 knots.

Not much of an innovator are you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Well, the AC 72 Class was raced in the AC 2013 Match between 0-23 +/- a Tidal Correction. But they were a more stable Platform.

AC 75 = Very unstable Platform in higher Winds IMO. May be it should be even around 20.

I'll take your opinion for what it's worth.

IIRC you're not a sailor? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

If you would have a 1 to 1 Conversation with someone like Ben Ainslie who is helming the Ineos Boat he would come to the same conclusion. Look, these Boats do not need to be pushed on the edge of Destruction. It's about having fun sailing but it's also about safety so ETNZ/LR have to balance these two items and let them come together as safely as possible. The higher the upper wind range is, the more catastrophic it ends should something happen.

"Its about having fun sailing"

Last time I checked it's about winning the AC. 

If 20kt is the limit, we are going to have a lot of days where there is no "fun" to be had at all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

It's also about keeping the Sailors Safe and not being in a Demolition Derby. I am sure the CoR/D will reach a consensus on the Wind Limits.

Your random capitalisation reminds me of a certain golden one.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just watching the videos so far I don't see any danger to the sailors !

All this doom and gloom has turned out to be Wow it looks so easy Wow Wow!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me the sea state is much more likely to cause dangerous conditions than wind strength. With soft sails that I understand could be reduced or reefed, it should be possible to safely sail up to 30kn provided one of the courses is sheltered from big swells or steep chop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally wouldn't mind seeing these boats in a bit of a blow, and a decent chop. Throw in some swell as well.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BOI Guy said:

Pretty sure God sets the wind limits on the day

And here's me thinking it is the sun and its effect on air.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so your going with that reality argument again huh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

I personally wouldn't mind seeing these boats in a bit of a blow, and a decent chop. Throw in some swell as well.

Smashing walls of water over the umpire boats. Yeah, sounds good!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

It's also about keeping the Sailors Safe and not being in a Demolition Derby. 

You must really hate SGP then...

Oh wait

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Horn Rock said:
So ETNZ and LR know about the (non) wind limits but the other 2 teams have no idea? Nick Holroyd already pointed out how this is his number 1 design issue for Ineos.
Hide or report this

Trying to out people is a big-time No-No on SA. Posters have been banned for exactly that reason because posters are given the luxury of privacy should they choose that option around here.... Fair warning.

Yes I do often follow TE’s shows and yes, sometimes he will choose to bring up comments posted during the show, to add to the discussion topics. In this case, yes he used my comment to pose the question to his guest RG, and it was worth a listen. All good.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Trying to out people is a big-time No-No on SA.

Appreciate your concerns and I've hidden that post. It wasn't your ID I was interested in, but your comments suggesting ETNZ were "crooked". So you're still a bit of a fuckwit.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Appreciate your concerns and I've hidden that post.

Appreciated.

The subject of wind limits is, according even to Holroyd, a very big issue. From what I can tell nothing prevents ETNZ from announcing them ahead of Dec 20 and so, given how imminent the B2 decisions are, perhaps they should step up and let the others know. Or are they clinging to that secret as an (arguably unfair) advantage? Shrug - It’s a reasonably fair Q to ask. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The subject of wind limits is, according even to Holroyd, a very big issue.

I'm sure it is for Nick. I haven't watched the show, did he specify which end of the limits he had issue with?

7 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

From what I can tell nothing prevents ETNZ from announcing them ahead of Dec 20

Bit of a stretch to say ETNZ aren't "stepping up" when they're still abiding by the rules. If they break the rules, fair enough, go to town on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On0/Dogballs/2019 at 3:57 AM, Boybland said:

Your mentioning an event that had two seperate major incidents one involving a fatalilty both involving boats that clearly couldn't deal with anything close to the set wind limits while simultaneously argueing it is impossible not to know how a brand new high performance class of yacht will perform in heavier conditions.

I call bullshit on your I call bullshit.

We have four completely different designs to the same rule, how does the ETNZ simulator for example know how the INEOS boat performs in 30 knots?  The answer is it doesn't, in fact it probably doesn't even know anything close to 100% how the ETNZ boat will perform, sure it might know how fast it will be in ideal or predictable conditions, the weather rarely plays that game fairly though.

You either pick a conservative boat (bit late for that now) or set a really conservative limit or you get some real world data first.

 

My point of responding to you comment about SF was to show how ridiculous it was. 

Now back to this AC.

The wind limit isn’t set based upon each team’s limitations, so NZ does not need to the capabilities of each boat to set the rules.   Some on SA have already deemed 50 knots as obviously too high, so what is a safe limit?  40 knots, 30 knots?  

Team NZ is made up of life long sailors that understand that dangerous and unnecessary risk is taken when the winds get too high.  They designed the boat and know the stress limits that are engineered into the boats.  I hear they have the greatest simulator ever built and that it can predict every situation. Surely, they can take a good estimate at the wind limits and give the other team a target to aim at.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Horn Rock said:

I'm sure it is for Nick. I haven't watched the show, did he specify which end of the limits he had issue with?

He was talking about it in the recent Tip n Shaft article.

I actually forget RG’s exact response on the show yesterday, think it was along the lines of how there are 5 courses announced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

think it was along the lines of how there are 5 courses announced.

This, and the fact that the rules state you can't change the boat once the regatta is under way, is a huge hint that a good all around boat is required. Fair warning IMO. Build a boat dialed in to one extreme is a big gamble, and you do it at your own peril.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Herfy said:

My point of responding to you comment about SF was to show how ridiculous it was. 

Now back to this AC.

The wind limit isn’t set based upon each team’s limitations, so NZ does not need to the capabilities of each boat to set the rules.   Some on SA have already deemed 50 knots as obviously too high, so what is a safe limit?  40 knots, 30 knots?  

Team NZ is made up of life long sailors that understand that dangerous and unnecessary risk is taken when the winds get too high.  They designed the boat and know the stress limits that are engineered into the boats.  I hear they have the greatest simulator ever built and that it can predict every situation. Surely, they can take a good estimate at the wind limits and give the other team a target to aim at.  

The silmulator didn't even manage to accurately predict the stress limit of the foils...

I agree they could give an estimate, but if you give an estimate and change it later, isn't that kind of pointless? We know in all likelyhood 90% of racing is likely to occur somewhere between 5 and 25 knots due to prevailing conditions unless one of the limits is inside that range, that seems very unlikely!

I do think they should be giving wind limits before teams start laying down second boats though, that way teams can have a few slightly different options on the table, but wasn't the final release date for rules 21 December this year or there abouts? I assume the day after that is go time for build on boat 2 for everybody.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

This, and the fact that the rules state you can't change the boat once the regatta is under way, is a huge hint that a good all around boat is required. Fair warning IMO. Build a boat dialed in to one extreme is a big gamble, and you do it at your own peril.

True but it’s a much bigger gamble if you aren’t aware of what extreme the Defender is going to target! Specialized will be much faster than all-around - within those sweet-spots.

You get to design-choose and then build only four foil arm fairings and then six foil wings among all the other restrictions.. If one design is optimized perfectly for what the window is, it will be a blowout.

Would be nice if Cagliari gave us some hints about who has it rightest but with  no points on the line there will be zero incentive for anyone to sport their best sails, foils, or anything else. Might as well send a B team while keeping focus back at home on the Rave Boat;  ETNZ did much the same during much of the previous two cycles’ large amount of ACWS racing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Average gives an indication but doesn't mean much. More specific historic data requires to pay, do somebody has hit for the last years in January, Feb, March ?

Obviously a boat designed for 5 to 16 would not be the same than for 5 to 30, or 10 to 20

Capture3.PNG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Boybland said:

The silmulator didn't even manage to accurately predict the stress limit of the foils...

I agree they could give an estimate, but if you give an estimate and change it later, isn't that kind of pointless? We know in all likelyhood 90% of racing is likely to occur somewhere between 5 and 25 knots due to prevailing conditions unless one of the limits is inside that range, that seems very unlikely!

I do think they should be giving wind limits before teams start laying down second boats though, that way teams can have a few slightly different options on the table, but wasn't the final release date for rules 21 December this year or there abouts? I assume the day after that is go time for build on boat 2 for everybody.

But each team can only make a total of 6 foils and they have already used up 2 by launching the first boat.  So set it as 5 - 25, whatever, and be done with it.  Is the race going to be a less competitive or valid if they later feel it should have been 8 - 28, or a high of 30?  No, just go ahead and set the limits and make it fair for all teams.  Right now, only NZ has an idea what limits they are considering and thus can optimize their design for that range.  Every other team is in the dark and has to guess what the targets may be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Herfy said:

But each team can only make a total of 6 foils and they have already used up 2 by launching the first boat.  So set it as 5 - 25, whatever, and be done with it.  Is the race going to be a less competitive or valid if they later feel it should have been 8 - 28, or a high of 30?  No, just go ahead and set the limits and make it fair for all teams.  Right now, only NZ has an idea what limits they are considering and thus can optimize their design for that range.  Every other team is in the dark and has to guess what the targets may be.

Tin foil hat conspiracy theory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

it’s a much bigger gamble if you aren’t aware of what extreme the Defender is going to target!

I don't think the Defender is going to target an extreme. Their boat will be designed to perform in a fairly wide range from light, through moderate, to a bit of a blow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

I don't think the Defender is going to target an extreme. Their boat will be designed to perform in a fairly wide range from light, through moderate, to a bit of a blow.

Only they know what sweet-spot they are after - and that is a big problem for everyone else! Read Holroyd again if you want it from the very top.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Only they know what sweet-spot they are after

Like I keep saying, they're not designing for a particular sweet spot, but a broad range that would work in a no wind limits frame work. If the other teams target a narrow range then that's on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

they're not designing for a particular sweet spot, but a broad range that would work in a no wind limits frame work.

Ah, what makes you tell that ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Ah, what makes you tell that ?

Something GD said in an interview about building a good all around boat. ETNZ sailors have for years always stressed to designers that they want a boat that'll sail in all conditions, as opposed to a boat shoe horned into one corner of the rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/24/2019 at 10:26 AM, Boybland said:

The silmulator didn't even manage to accurately predict the stress limit of the foils...

Bermuda?

They were forced to take the foils outside of range as winds lifted and they didn't have time to swap...

There's nothing to suggest they didn't know it was outside of envelope...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Horn Rock said:

Something GD said in an interview about building a good all around boat. ETNZ sailors have for years always stressed to designers that they want a boat that'll sail in all conditions, as opposed to a boat shoe horned into one corner of the rule.

do we know he is telling the truth?

not that he's a mad liar but he wouldn't give anythin away

regardless, i would be surprised if ETNZ put out crazy wind limits but they should be well out by now seeing as the first boats are launched and designs for the second boats are well under development

it would be a farce if they released the wind limits too late for challengers to design around

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Like I keep saying, they're not designing for a particular sweet spot, but a broad range that would work in a no wind limits frame work. If the other teams target a narrow range then that's on them.

The sweet spot will be the conditions de jour. No modding for every days forecast. Build a boat for Auckland late summer. If the race director has reason to believe the conditions are dangerous, call it off. RD is a judge, when you enter a judged event you put your fate in the hands of the judge. Simple. Like IM, unpartial.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, inebriated said:

it would be a farce if they released the wind limits too late for challengers to design around

Guess we'll know on Dec20 when the match conditions are published.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Ah, what makes you tell that ?

Ask your bud dg when they will write the race conditions rules. I think he says Dec

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just quit trying to makes excuses on why there is no need to set the limits yet.  Set the limits and no one has to make any assumptions.  It is not rocket science, it makes it look like NZ is not being straight forward with everyone!  
 

- They set limits on the length of the boats without knowing what they would do in real life sailing.

- They set limits on the length of the foils without knowing what they would do in real life sailing.

- They set limits on the weight of the foils without knowing what they would do in real life sailing.

- They set limits on the number of crew without knowing what they would do in real life sailing.

- They set limits on the size of the sails without knowing what they would do in real life sailing.

- They set limits on the weight of the boats without knowing what they would do in real life sailing.

etc, etc, etc.  no excuses  for them to delay setting the wind limits

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Herf, it Dec 20 as per the prot. If they didn't like that they shouldn't have signed on. Seems only Ineos is worried, and that might be because they've designed a boat for breezy conditions. That's okay they get a second crack at it. Wouldn't be surprised if their second boat is a bit different than their first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Hey Herf, it Dec 20 as per the prot. 

Exactly.

It's been in black and white for a long time, why all the whining? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, rh3000 said:

Bermuda?

They were forced to take the foils outside of range as winds lifted and they didn't have time to swap...

There's nothing to suggest they didn't know it was outside of envelope...

Actually I meant the AC75 foil arms (missed the word in the orginal post) which had to be completely redesigned the simulation was so bad compared to the real world tests.  It pretty graphically illustrates that some things will be pretty accurate in simulation while others for a variety of reasons can be a long way from reality, especially when you are building something absolutely revolutionary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 the simulation was so bad compared to the real world tests. 

Maybe engineering load sim for a complicated composite structure is different than the sim that solves hydro and balance between forces, like the sailing bit. Not expounding but the"simulation" can be used in so many cases these days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Boybland said:

Actually I meant the AC75 foil arms (missed the word in the orginal post) which had to be completely redesigned the simulation was so bad compared to the real world tests.  It pretty graphically illustrates that some things will be pretty accurate in simulation while others for a variety of reasons can be a long way from reality, especially when you are building something absolutely revolutionary.

You mean persicos engineering calcs? Arm wasn't really revolutionary, and from what we heard even some human minds were skeptical it would work... ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Herfy said:

Just quit trying to makes excuses on why there is no need to set the limits yet.  Set the limits and no one has to make any assumptions.  It is not rocket science, it makes it look like NZ is not being straight forward with everyone!  
 

- They set limits on the length of the boats without knowing what they would do in real life sailing.

December 20th as per the protocol

- They set limits on the length of the foils without knowing what they would do in real life sailing.

December 20th as per the protocol

- They set limits on the weight of the foils without knowing what they would do in real life sailing.

December 20th as per the protocol

- They set limits on the number of crew without knowing what they would do in real life sailing.

December 20th as per the protocol

- They set limits on the size of the sails without knowing what they would do in real life sailing.

December 20th as per the protocol

- They set limits on the weight of the boats without knowing what they would do in real life sailing.

December 20th as per the protocol

etc, etc, etc.  no excuses  for them to delay setting the wind limits

December 20th as per the protocol

December 20th as per the protocol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BOI Guy said:

apparently you can simulate sex, real world tests sounds better to me.

Yes you can, and beats the real fucking thing. It never has an headache.

But a simulator that does the structural engineering, that's new to me. Real world tests proved to be more conclusive.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/25/2019 at 11:15 AM, Horn Rock said:

I don't think the Defender is going to target an extreme. 

Indeed. SR woz up to customary misschiff, in this kayss, to  " put forward an argument whose validity requires that its own conclusion be true.

Also called petitio principii, the fallacy is an attempt to support a claim with a premise that itself presupposes the claim."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Only they know what sweet-spot they are after - and that is a big problem for everyone else! Read Holroyd again if you want it from the very top.

And hear, SR dubbelz down on prev fallassy, and whisks in this wun:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, snaerk said:

Also called petitio principii, the fallacy is an attempt to support a claim with a premise that itself presupposes the claim."

Nicely described Snaerky. You have to watch Stingers, but I'm on to him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, snaerk said:

And hear, SR combynz prev fallassy with  this wun:

So basically he's talking bullshit, adding more bullshit, then trying to pass it off as someone else's bullshit?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

C’mon guys, do you really believe that the rules about the Match conditions don’t freaking matter?

Lamo! 
 

Again: What is the very first issue Holroyd brings up??? 
 

Big Hint: It was not the price of a hot dog on the Auckland waterfront.. The top issue is Wind Speed! ETNZ is refusing to share it, despite the 6-frkn month delay..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So what Holroyd says is bullshit ? and it is not only for wind limits:

"There are few bits of information to which we are not privy to, like the wind limits might be etc., and two, we had five months from class rule to launching boat 1, they undoubtedly had this concept in their simulator a lot longer than that, I was taking to them in October the year before so they probably had six months more. "

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

"There are few bits of information to which we are not privy to, like the wind limits

 

Duh!!! :D D’ya think?
 

Designs are abso-fucking-luty about about hitting advantageous sweet spots. An ‘all-around’ boat has none of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

C’mon guys, do you really believe that the rules about the Match conditions don’t freaking matter?

No one is suggesting the rules don't matter. ETNZ don't need to cave into Ineo's chief designer goading them to supply info not yet required under the protocol. Holroyd is attempting to project his agenda onto the Defender. He can wait like everyone else. Stand tough ETNZ. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

If we listen to TE Ben is not amused by the FCS problems either..

Correction - by their problems with the FCS.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Horn Rock said:

No one is suggesting the rules don't matter. ETNZ don't need to cave into Ineo's chief designer goading them to supply info not yet required under the protocol. Holroyd is attempting to project his agenda onto the Defender. He can wait like everyone else. Stand tough ETNZ. 

Come on, waiting teams to begin constructing their match boat before providing the conditions of the match is not correct. What would have you said if Oracle had done the same ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Horn Rock said:

Correction - by their problems with the FCS.

At one point TE spoke of "teams", but I don't know if he is correct on that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

What would have you said if Oracle had done the same ?

Come on do we really need to go down that dark and gloomy tunnel? Just ask LR what they think of Oracle's rule fiddling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

they undoubtedly had this concept in their simulator a lot longer than that, 

Nailed it, that is the whole problem with ETNZ doing the design secretively in-house. Without the AC35 bribery from LR, it would never have happened this way. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ETNZ don't even decide the wind limits on their own, Holroyd should be talking to his local representative involved in the decision, i.e. the COR.  He has until the December 20 to do so, best get in early though before the Yanks do and probably best to use Italian to avoid any lost in translation moments.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Boybland said:

Actually I meant the AC75 foil arms (missed the word in the orginal post) which had to be completely redesigned the simulation was so bad compared to the real world tests.  It pretty graphically illustrates that some things will be pretty accurate in simulation while others for a variety of reasons can be a long way from reality, especially when you are building something absolutely revolutionary.

I think you are getting confused.  The engineering and simulation established the strength requirements for the foil arms.  Then a group of engineers failed to designed the foil arms to met the requirements.  The requirements were not wrong as you imply, but the original design was flawed.  Another group of engineers designed the next set of foil arms that did meet the same requirements that came out of the simulation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

TE spoke

With respect to Tom, he has no official authority in this matter and his conjecture does not drive the protocols timeline.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Come on, waiting teams to begin constructing their match boat before providing the conditions of the match is not correct. What would have you said if Oracle had done the same ?

Which teams have begun constructing boat 2? That would seem a bit silly given December 20 is 8 weeks away and the racing that matters isn't until 2021...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

that is the whole problem with ETNZ doing the design secretively in-house.

You're projecting again. There was no problem with the Kiwis/Italians design procedure.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

No one is suggesting the rules don't matter. ETNZ don't need to cave into Ineo's chief designer goading them to supply info not yet required under the protocol. Holroyd is attempting to project his agenda onto the Defender. He can wait like everyone else. Stand tough ETNZ. 

Yes but the freakin’ timeline got slipped. Nobody has more than a week max on their B1’s now and they have to make imminent B2 design/build decisions with no idea  what ludicrousy ETNZ might spring on them too late in the game? 
 

It doesn’t smell right. What if ETNZ and LR, with suspiciously similar designs, decide on an 8 knot wind range? The other  two are, unlike in recent AC’s, completely powerless to influence those decisions. Add to that the tight financial ties between ETNZ and LR, and their resulting motivation to f everyone else, well then.. shrug!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites