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I wonder if some of the local owners will get a refund from the Cat 3 on there boats for there stellar performances?;):o

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They should!

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1 hour ago, Grinder said:

Their

You got my point

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On 10/23/2019 at 6:12 PM, jackolantern said:

What’s this meltdown?

yeah, what he said

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Quote

 

J/88 Class Lots Of Drama

The seven-boat J/88 class had a somewhat acrimonious regatta. It was very close racing amongst the top four boats with just a few points separating them after seven races onSaturday. Those teams were Tim Wade’s WINDSONG, John & Jordan Leahey’s DUTCH, Andy & Sarah Graff’s EXILE, and Ben Marden’s BANTER. However, after racing on Saturday, both DUTCH and EXILE protested BANTER for using a different spinnaker in race 7 after shredding their primary kite in race 6. While it is permitted to carry two spinnakers under J/88 class rules and use them, it turned out the second spinnaker on BANTER was too big by a few square feet. Instead of simply DSQ’ing BANTER for just the one race, the Jury inexplicably tossed them out of ALL 7 races! To further add fuel to the fires amongst the top four boats, WINDSONG protested EXILE in race 7 and got them DSQ’d for extending their pole too early on the spinnaker set. The next day, Jorgen Christiansen’s USA 75 protested EXILE in race 8 for the exact same infringement and got them DSQ’d again.

As consequence of those Jury Room proceedings, Marden’s BANTER team withdrew from the regatta and Christiansen’s USA 75 team withdrew from the first seven races in sympathy and solidarity for the BANTER team. A very dramatic and poignant outcome for the J/88 scoring table!  
(comment:  proper term after finishing a race is to "retire", not "withdraw".)

The outcome of all the protest room drama was that Tim Wade’s WINDSONG won the regatta with three 1sts, five 2nds, and a DNC in the ninth and last race for 21 pts total (they had already won on points by winning race 8). Second was the Leahey’s DUTCH team with 28 pts and third went to Todd Patton’s BLONDIE 2 with 32 pts.

 

this is from the Chicago Area III thread.

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3 hours ago, ryley said:

 

this is from the Chicago Area III thread.

Hack's

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On 10/23/2019 at 4:50 PM, marcus brutus said:

After the meltdown at the Verve Cup Regaatta, it's no surprise that all Lake Michigan boats were AWOL.

Do you actually know any of the 88 owners?  Have you spoken with them about why they didn't go?  I can assure you the absence of Chicago J88s had absolutely nothing to do with the drama at the Verve.  Stop stirring up stupid shit when you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

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16 minutes ago, Looper said:

Do you actually know any of the 88 owners?  Have you spoken with them about why they didn't go?  I can assure you the absence of Chicago J88s had absolutely nothing to do with the drama at the Verve.  Stop stirring up stupid shit when you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

so why didn't they go?

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1 minute ago, ryley said:

so why didn't they go?

I'm not going to speak for other owners as I'm not one of them.  I can just say that it wasn't the Verve.

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Fair enough. I hope whatever it is they figure it out - class hasn't been around long enough for it to fracture already. 

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does the J88 class have a history of traveling well to major NA regattas?  

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The J/30 class has provided loaner boats to out of towners that have qualified in their local area and would like to participate in the national championship. That has worked pretty well.

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I'd say that the 88 class did a decent job of that, with the 88 "COURAGEOUS" coming out from San Francisco and sailing on Nevermore, a boat from Riverside YC in Connecticut. 

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35 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

I'd say that the 88 class did a decent job of that, with the 88 "COURAGEOUS" coming out from San Francisco and sailing on Nevermore, a boat from Riverside YC in Connecticut. 

That and two more... "Oh Jee" and "Yonder" were both chartered by SF teams

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On 10/28/2019 at 12:00 PM, ryley said:

so why didn't they go?

kill-you.jpg

Hint: “Swiss cheese”, “laptop computer”, “swimming pool”.

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Morning Anarchists!  

We missed an epic NAs from the sounds of it.   

To answer your question,  for the Lake Michigan Fleet of the three boats that normally travel - Exile has a ill family member and is trying to stay close to home for the next few months, Blondie 2 had conflicts with the work schedule for the owners, and Dutch - we were planning on going but my wife won a legal award and attended a conference in DC while I watched our 10 month old on the home front.  Iris, our class president, even organized a nanny to get us out there, but traveling alone with the 10 month old and trying to race a regatta did not seem like my best idea.   Timing was not great this year, though we all wanted to race. 

We're working on getting some boats out to J-Fest & NOODs, followed by CRW.  We also have a couple boats headed to winter on Lake Norman.  

Check out our new fleet website here, work in progress but stay tuned for updates: https://www.j88fleet4.com/ And Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/690782364425723/

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On 10/28/2019 at 10:39 AM, Looper said:

Do you actually know any of the 88 owners?  Have you spoken with them about why they didn't go?  I can assure you the absence of Chicago J88s had absolutely nothing to do with the drama at the Verve.  Stop stirring up stupid shit when you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Why are you incapable of a civil discourse with anyone who dares to disagree with your opinions?

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I was merely transitioning the discussion from conjecture and innuendo to fact (not my opinion).  I maintain that you have no idea what you are talking about.  You have demonstrated that on several fronts.  

How would you feel if someone brought forward a bunch of disparaging comments and opinions about the choices you've made with your contributions to the sport?
 

 

26 minutes ago, marcus brutus said:

Why are you incapable of a civil discourse with anyone who dares to disagree with your opinions?

 

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5 hours ago, Looper said:
6 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Why are you incapable of a civil discourse with anyone who dares to disagree with your opinions?

 

5 hours ago, Looper said:

I was merely transitioning the discussion from conjecture and innuendo to fact (not my opinion).  I maintain that you have no idea what you are talking about.  You have demonstrated that on several fronts.  

How would you feel if someone brought forward a bunch of disparaging comments and opinions about the choices you've made with your contributions to the sport?

 

The question remains; why are you incapable of a civil discourse with anyone who dares to disagree with your interpretation of facts?

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7 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Why are you incapable of a civil discourse with anyone who dares to disagree with your opinions?

I know one of, and sailed with one the J/88 owners you were rude about and agree, you’re an asshole with no facts. 

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

I know one of, and sailed with one the J/88 owners you were rude about and agree, you’re an asshole with no facts. 

I don't think he's an asshole, he comes off as a child.

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Why would anyone want to race in a class of whiners that are red flag happy? I raced against Espo for years, and I do not recall us having one protest..settle that shit on the water!

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Updated information regarding Verve Cup Regatta J/88 Class protests.

J/88 Class Lots Of Drama

The seven-boat J/88 class had a somewhat acrimonious regatta. It was very close racing amongst the top four boats with just a few points separating them after seven races on Saturday. Those teams were Tim Wade’s WINDSONG, John & Jordan Leahey’s DUTCH, Andy & Sarah Graff’s EXILE, and Ben Marden’s BANTER. However, after racing on Saturday, both DUTCH and EXILE protested BANTER for using a different spinnaker in race 7 after shredding their primary kite in race 6. While it is permitted to carry two spinnakers under J/88 class rules and use them, it turned out the second spinnaker on BANTER was too big by a few square feet. Instead of simply DSQ’ing BANTER for just the one race, the Jury inexplicably tossed them out of ALL 7 races! To further add fuel to the fires amongst the top four boats, WINDSONG protested EXILE in race 7 and got them DSQ’d for extending their pole too early on the spinnaker set. The next day, Jorgen Christiansen’s USA 75 protested EXILE in race 8 for the exact same infringement and got them DSQ’d again.

As consequence of those Jury Room proceedings, Marden’s BANTER team withdrew from the regatta and Christiansen’s USA 75 team withdrew from the first seven races in sympathy and solidarity for the BANTER team. A very dramatic and poignant outcome for the J/88 scoring table!  
(comment:  proper term after finishing a race is to "retire", not "withdraw".)

The outcome of all the protest room drama was that Tim Wade’s WINDSONG won the regatta with three 1sts, five 2nds, and a DNC in the ninth and last race for 21 pts total (they had already won on points by winning race 8). Second was the Leahey’s DUTCH team with 28 pts and third went to Todd Patton’s BLONDIE 2 with 32 pts.
 

 

 
ac·ri·mo·ni·ous
/ˌakrəˈmōnēəs/
 
adjective
 
  1. (typically of speech or a debate) angry and bitter.
    "an acrimonious dispute about wages"

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On 10/30/2019 at 11:41 AM, leahey09 said:

Morning Anarchists!  

We missed an epic NAs from the sounds of it.   

To answer your question,  for the Lake Michigan Fleet of the three boats that normally travel - Exile has a ill family member and is trying to stay close to home for the next few months, Blondie 2 had conflicts with the work schedule for the owners, and Dutch - we were planning on going but my wife won a legal award and attended a conference in DC while I watched our 10 month old on the home front.  Iris, our class president, even organized a nanny to get us out there, but traveling alone with the 10 month old and trying to race a regatta did not seem like my best idea.   Timing was not great this year, though we all wanted to race. 

We're working on getting some boats out to J-Fest & NOODs, followed by CRW.  We also have a couple boats headed to winter on Lake Norman.  

Check out our new fleet website here, work in progress but stay tuned for updates: https://www.j88fleet4.com/ And Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/690782364425723/

Time with the 10 month old will never be regretted.

CRW will be great fun

How did you feel about Banter being thrown out from all 7 races rather than just the one race? What prompted your protest in the first place?

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Is it too early to use  "Wingnuts" or is that still reserved for us 105'ers?

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How can you hold a protest about a pole being out early at the mark if all the sprit poles are 6+" different in length!? That means that even if some poles are in they're 6" further forward than other peoples poles! :ph34r:

 

I need someone to tape tape a copy of the class rules to the back of their transom to help us clarify this issue.

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5 hours ago, IPLore said:

Time with the 10 month old will never be regretted.

CRW will be great fun

How did you feel about Banter being thrown out from all 7 races rather than just the one race? What prompted your protest in the first place?

 

As a young class we have some growing pains to tackle and we're learning.  As a class we're the ones writing the rules, agreeing, and sailing by those rules.   

The basic principle of sportsmanship & the rules; Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce.

In this case there was confusion around the wording of class rule and the end result was disappointing for all parties involved - there is no winner when this occurs and no one wants to have a regatta end that way.   

The owners sat down for season ending dinner and discussed how to prevent an incident like this going forward.  Mainly, taking the time to talk and listen to each other (in calm fashion) at the dock before going to the room.  If you are not calm manner, bring in another owner to arbitrate.  

The fleet owners and crew here are a small community - we're all friends and spend a lot of time together -sailing, hanging out, talking,  drinking, texting, emailing, and helping each other not only with the 88 but other boats we sailing and even activities outside sailing.   Its awesome to be part of a growing fleet and with any young/new fleet we have some growing pains. 

We're learning and are making improvements to the fleet/class going forward.  We only have so much time for sailing - anything we can do make it better is a win.  

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2 hours ago, leahey09 said:

 

As a young class we have some growing pains to tackle and we're learning.  As a class we're the ones writing the rules, agreeing, and sailing by those rules.   

The basic principle of sportsmanship & the rules; Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce.

In this case there was confusion around the wording of class rule and the end result was disappointing for all parties involved - there is no winner when this occurs and no one wants to have a regatta end that way.   

The owners sat down for season ending dinner and discussed how to prevent an incident like this going forward.  Mainly, taking the time to talk and listen to each other (in calm fashion) at the dock before going to the room.  If you are not calm manner, bring in another owner to arbitrate.  

The fleet owners and crew here are a small community - we're all friends and spend a lot of time together -sailing, hanging out, talking,  drinking, texting, emailing, and helping each other not only with the 88 but other boats we sailing and even activities outside sailing.   Its awesome to be part of a growing fleet and with any young/new fleet we have some growing pains. 

We're learning and are making improvements to the fleet/class going forward.  We only have so much time for sailing - anything we can do make it better is a win.  

As someone with a front row seat (on the rail) in the Chicago 88 fleet and an observer of the actions and reactions of this season's CYC Verve Cup I've got a few points to add...

Sailboat racing as a whole is dying. This is not my opinion, it's just simple math when considering the fleet consolation and the participation data over the past 20 years. There are lots of reasons for this including economics, changes in generational interests, and cultural shifts that can be debated but the original point holds true. I found myself being part of this statistic going from as an avid racer here in the city in the 2000's doing all Macs, weekend buoys, frostbiting, and winter circuits then eventually losing interest in the "sport".

The arrival of the J/88 here in Chicago in 2016 reversed that for me. Finally there was a big-boat that handled like a dinghy and it was attracting x-college and x-V15 sailors who all but abandoned racing to get back on the horse. The level of competition was strong right out of the box with familiar faces that hadn't been seen on the water in years. The fleet level of BS was basically none existent as club politics, blue blazers, and mount gay hats were for the old people on the bigger boats. The J/88 sailors weren't interested in that, they just wanted to go racing. The next two years the fleet continued to grow with new blood on the helms and the rails. Boats were turning away crew as they had to much demand then empty seats, something other fleets haven't experienced in decades. The NAs was even held here last year with 16 boats on the line with world class competition and top notch tacticians sprinkled throughout the fleet.   

The beginning of this season was no different and built the the previous season's momentum with a further addition to the fleet. The atmosphere was inclusive and assistance was common between owners and crew. Boat masts went up and down much like a "barn raising" and it was very common for group emails among the fleet to rally boats out on a Wednesday night and load level crew between the fleet to ensure everyone turned up on the line. All of this happened organically for one simple reason, people were having FUN.

That all changed at the Verve Cup when the good graces were thrown out the window. The idea of winning at any cost was on full display and the best strategy to win became eliminating boats (literally) from the regatta instead of beating them out on the race course. That was the truly the day the music died for the fleet in my opinion. The FUN has left the building and the impact on participation level for the remainder of the season was very evident.

Regarding the protest, a rule was mistakenly broken in one race (ripped primary A1 kite on last leg of Race 6 and flew old 2014 Wed Night A1 kite for only Race 7 when class rules states you carry and fly only one of each size) that resulted in that boat being thrown out of all 7 races to that point in the regatta. This wasn't something the judges arrived at on their own, the protest form requested "DSQ from Race 7 and probably all previous races".  This was the only way to take the fastest boat in the fleet out of contention and it worked, perfectly. Common sense suggests a throw out of only Race 7 but sadly the rest in history and the utopia was short lived...

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2 hours ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

As someone with a front row seat (on the rail) in the Chicago 88 fleet and an observer of the actions and reactions of this season's CYC Verve Cup I've got a few points to add...

Sailboat racing as a whole is dying. This is not my opinion, it's just simple math when considering the fleet consolation and the participation data over the past 20 years. There are lots of reasons for this including economics, changes in generational interests, and cultural shifts that can be debated but the original point holds true. I found myself being part of this statistic going from as an avid racer here in the city in the 2000's doing all Macs, weekend buoys, frostbiting, and winter circuits then eventually losing interest in the "sport".

The arrival of the J/88 here in Chicago in 2016 reversed that for me. Finally there was a big-boat that handled like a dinghy and it was attracting x-college and x-V15 sailors who all but abandoned racing to get back on the horse. The level of competition was strong right out of the box with familiar faces that hadn't been seen on the water in years. The fleet level of BS was basically none existent as club politics, blue blazers, and mount gay hats were for the old people on the bigger boats. The J/88 sailors weren't interested in that, they just wanted to go racing. The next two years the fleet continued to grow with new blood on the helms and the rails. Boats were turning away crew as they had to much demand then empty seats, something other fleets haven't experienced in decades. The NAs was even held here last year with 16 boats on the line with world class competition and top notch tacticians sprinkled throughout the fleet.   

The beginning of this season was no different and built the the previous season's momentum with a further addition to the fleet. The atmosphere was inclusive and assistance was common between owners and crew. Boat masts went up and down much like a "barn raising" and it was very common for group emails among the fleet to rally boats out on a Wednesday night and load level crew between the fleet to ensure everyone turned up on the line. All of this happened organically for one simple reason, people were having FUN.

That all changed at the Verve Cup when the good graces were thrown out the window. The idea of winning at any cost was on full display and the best strategy to win became eliminating boats (literally) from the regatta instead of beating them out on the race course. That was the truly the day the music died for the fleet in my opinion. The FUN has left the building and the impact on participation level for the remainder of the season was very evident.

Regarding the protest, a rule was mistakenly broken in one race (ripped primary A1 kite on last leg of Race 6 and flew old 2014 Wed Night A1 kite for only Race 7 when class rules states you carry and fly only one of each size) that resulted in that boat being thrown out of all 7 races to that point in the regatta. This wasn't something the judges arrived at on their own, the protest form requested "DSQ from Race 7 and probably all previous races".  This was the only way to take the fastest boat in the fleet out of contention and it worked, perfectly. Common sense suggests a throw out of only Race 7 but sadly the rest in history and the utopia was short lived...

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.
 

 

In 2018 I almost purchased J/88 "RAGING BULL" from Holland. The price (~$90,000) was right but the prohibitive deck cargo shipping cost killed that deal and saved me from the 2019 Verve Cup Regatta debacle; thank God. Sometimes it is better to be lucky than to be smart.

 

 

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4 hours ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

That all changed at the Verve Cup when the good graces were thrown out the window. The idea of winning at any cost was on full display and the best strategy to win became eliminating boats (literally) from the regatta instead of beating them out on the race course. That was the truly the day the music died for the fleet in my opinion. The FUN has left the building and the impact on participation level for the remainder of the season was very evident.

J/88 is essentially over. Next!

jump_the_shark.jpg

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Far from dead— USA 5 is under contract and headed to Lake Michigan.

Stay tuned for some double-handed distance events to be announced soon.

Stretch goal is to add 5 boats to the Lake Michigan boat this offseason. 

We are just getting started!

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

...resulted in that boat being thrown out of all 7 races to that point in the regatta. This wasn't something the judges arrived at on their own, the protest form requested "DSQ from Race 7 and probably all previous races".

Since when is a jury required to accept the protestor's "solution"? I'm not a judge, I only play one on the water, but the Jury could just have DSQ'd the boat from the race where the infraction occurred. In fact, it is out of the ordinary for the described infraction to result in DSQ for all races in the series, unless there was evidence of some kind of improper behavior/configuration for all races in the series. This doesn't pass the smell test.

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On 11/1/2019 at 12:13 PM, leahey09 said:

 

As a young class we have some growing pains to tackle and we're learning.  As a class we're the ones writing the rules, agreeing, and sailing by those rules.  

But it's not like the J88 is the first class to wrestle with the rules regarding extension of the sprit at a mark or oversize spinnakers. The J70, J80, and (dare I say it) J105's  - just to mention J-Boat examples, have all dealt with this long ago and there are well-established workable  and understandable rules to cover these scenarios. Why is the J88 class re-inventing the wheel? I thik most J88 owners are well aware of these other classes and how these same rules work in this context.

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3 hours ago, JoeO said:

But it's not like the J88 is the first class to wrestle with the rules regarding extension of the sprit at a mark or oversize spinnakers. The J70, J80, and (dare I say it) J105's  - just to mention J-Boat examples, have all dealt with this long ago and there are well-established workable  and understandable rules to cover these scenarios. Why is the J88 class re-inventing the wheel? I thik most J88 owners are well aware of these other classes and how these same rules work in this context.

you are 100% correct - we are looking at other classes.  The 105 rule and the Melges 32 rule have been discussed.

 

 

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I still dont understand why Banter was thrown out of all 7 races.

It appears Banter replaced a shredded spinnaker in race 7 but in races 1-6, she sailed with a class legal spinnaker.

Leahey.....you were there and you were party to the protest, I am interested enough in the J88 to ask the two questions;

(1) Why was Banter thrown out of races 1-6?

(2) Why did Banter's fellow competitors/friends/community want Banter thrown out of the regatta?  Were they somehow not part of the group that hangs out together?

On 11/1/2019 at 1:13 PM, leahey09 said:

The fleet owners and crew here are a small community - we're all friends and spend a lot of time together -sailing, hanging out, talking,  drinking, texting, emailing, and helping each other

If I purchased a J88, towed it all the way to Lake Michigan, and made a silly mistake in race 5 , would I be disqualified from race 1-4?  How draconian are J88 class rules?

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

I still dont understand why Banter was thrown out of all 7 races.

It appears Banter replaced a shredded spinnaker in race 7 but in races 1-6, she sailed with a class legal spinnaker.

Leahey.....you were there and you were party to the protest, I am interested enough in the J88 to ask the two questions;

(1) Why was Banter thrown out of races 1-6?

(2) Why did Banter's fellow competitors/friends/community want Banter thrown out of the regatta?  Were they somehow not part of the group that hangs out together?

If I purchased a J88, towed it all the way to Lake Michigan, and made a silly mistake in race 5 , would I be disqualified from race 1-4?  How draconian are J88 class rules?

Great questions. Those who are curious hope for candid answers, especially since it appears that none of the many protests involved the right of way rules.

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If the rule includes not carrying more than one, it sounds like they were carrying two for all those races. Change the rule or leave the spare in the truck.

I sailed on a J/88 here on Lake Champlain several times. It was a nice boat, but the owners ended up selling it off the Lake.

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On 10/31/2019 at 4:23 PM, Monkey said:

I know one of, and sailed with one the J/88 owners you were rude about and agree, you’re an asshole with no facts. 

Go over to the Vanguard 15 thread for a good chuckle 

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16 minutes ago, Streetwise said:

If the rule includes not carrying more than one, it sounds like they were carrying two for all those races. Change the rule or leave the spare in the truck.

I sailed on a J/88 here on Lake Champlain several times. It was a nice boat, but the owners ended up selling it off the Lake.

5.3 Sails carried on board and used for J/88 Class or Fleet sanctioned events for inshore buoy racing shall be limited to no more than five sails: one Class mainsail, one Class #1 jib, one Class #2 jib, one Class #1 spinnaker and one Class #2 spinnaker. When in use, jibs are required to be attached to the furling system and capable of being furled. Each Class sail shall comply without exception with the provisions of these Rules.

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1 hour ago, VWAP said:
2 hours ago, Streetwise said:

If the rule includes not carrying more than one, it sounds like they were carrying two for all those races. Change the rule or leave the spare in the truck.

I sailed on a J/88 here on Lake Champlain several times. It was a nice boat, but the owners ended up selling it off the Lake.

5.3 Sails carried on board and used for J/88 Class or Fleet sanctioned events for inshore buoy racing shall be limited to no more than five sails: one Class mainsail, one Class #1 jib, one Class #2 jib, one Class #1 spinnaker and one Class #2 spinnaker. When in use, jibs are required to be attached to the furling system and capable of being furled. Each Class sail shall comply without exception with the provisions of these Rules.

mr. speedo never fails to demonstrate the abysmal degree of his ignorance.

https://tenor.com/view/speedo-speedoguy-bobs-burgers-vegan-gif-9930193

Had the big blowhard "private investigator by day" bothered to read J/88 Fleet 4 – Lake Michigan Region Rules, he would have known that:

5.3 Sails carried on board and used for fleet sanctioned buoy racing for any given day of racing shall be limited to no more than five: one Class mainsail, one Class #1 jib, one Class #2 jib, one Class #1 spinnaker and one Class #2 spinnaker. When in use, jibs are required to be attached to the furling system and capable of being furled. This changes the class rule to allow the substitution of sails on subsequent days of racing for the same event.

https://www.j88fleet4.com/fleetrules

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d92a734994e1a0143c5908c/t/5d939cf28cde5045a2d045d2/1569955059223/J88_Fleet4Rules.pdf

Due to potential ambiguity in the last sentence,  P/C could only logically determine that during Race #7 the protested boat used a different spinnaker but of the same size as used in previous races.

 

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On 11/1/2019 at 5:49 PM, Svanen said:

J/88 is essentially over. Next!

I doubt that, but... if any go up for sale, hail me.  

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4 hours ago, Skid51 said:

 ... if any go up for sale, hail me.  

No need to wait; there are plenty of j/88s on the market with asking price as low as $90,540.

7 are here:   https://www.boats.com/boats-for-sale/?make=j-boats&model=j-88

4 more here:  https://www.smartmarineguide.com/boats-for-sale/j-boats-j-88-j88-j-88-j-88

1 more here:   http://marketplace.sail1design.com/classified/j88-for-sale-listing-2432.aspx

1 more here:   https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2014/j-boats-j-88-3462287/
 1 more here: http://www.sailcal.com/boats-for-sale/2014-j-boats-j-88-alameda-california-7231260/

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10 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

mr. speedo never fails to demonstrate the abysmal degree of his ignorance.

https://tenor.com/view/speedo-speedoguy-bobs-burgers-vegan-gif-9930193

Had the big blowhard "private investigator by day" bothered to read J/88 Fleet 4 – Lake Michigan Region Rules, he would have known that:

5.3 Sails carried on board and used for fleet sanctioned buoy racing for any given day of racing shall be limited to no more than five: one Class mainsail, one Class #1 jib, one Class #2 jib, one Class #1 spinnaker and one Class #2 spinnaker. When in use, jibs are required to be attached to the furling system and capable of being furled. This changes the class rule to allow the substitution of sails on subsequent days of racing for the same event.

https://www.j88fleet4.com/fleetrules

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d92a734994e1a0143c5908c/t/5d939cf28cde5045a2d045d2/1569955059223/J88_Fleet4Rules.pdf

Due to potential ambiguity in the last sentence,  P/C could only logically determine that during Race #7 the protested boat used a different spinnaker but of the same size as used in previous races.

 

"subsequent days"

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2 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

No need to wait; there are plenty of j/88s on the market with asking price as low as $90,540.

Thanks M-Bru for the market snapshot.  This one  http://www.sailcal.com/boats-for-sale/2014-j-boats-j-88-alameda-california-7231260  has a completely different layout.   Much more weekendy with a larger galley area, a sink added to the head area,  a door between saloon and head, and a physical wall between v-berth and head.   Were these factory options or a one-off customization?  

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21 hours ago, Streetwise said:

Change the rule or leave the spare in the truck.

This. I usually carry a spare A2 on my boat because leaving it "at the dock" means for most of my races that a torn chute ends my day, not just my race. Even in Marblehead, a round trip from most of the racing areas to the *nearest* dock is around 5 miles or more, so figure an hour assuming you've got shore people who can meet you with the spare. For me it's worse if I'm racing in marblehead and I have to go home for a kite - my dock's 15 miles away so that's basically game over for that day. Fortunately under our bylaws we're allowed 3 spinnakers on board and there's no restrictions on which ones.

I'm not sure what the J88 class gains by limiting the spinnakers to 2 different sized ones carried aboard. As long as the spinnakers on board are measured in, allowing spares seems prudent.

The bigger issue of course is what stayoutofthemiddle's post pointed out - the 'win at all costs' mentality. No class rule fix will fix that.

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21 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

5.3 Sails carried on board and used for fleet sanctioned buoy racing for any given day of racing shall be limited to no more than five: one Class mainsail, one Class #1 jib, one Class #2 jib, one Class #1 spinnaker and one Class #2 spinnaker. When in use, jibs are required to be attached to the furling system and capable of being furled. This changes the class rule to allow the substitution of sails on subsequent days of racing for the same event.

 

 

The key phrase is that the surplus spinnaker must be "used" to be illegal.  There is nothing in this class rule that prevents a boat from carrying the surplus weight of old sails or a back up sail to get home with, or a storm jib. You just cant use two of the same sail during one day of racing.

Since some of the 7 races occurred on the prior day and since Banter only broke the rule in one race, I confess I am still nonplussed why Banter was disqualified from all 7 races.

 

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23 hours ago, Streetwise said:

If the rule includes not carrying more than one, it sounds like they were carrying two for all those races. Change the rule or leave the spare in the truck.

I sailed on a J/88 here on Lake Champlain several times. It was a nice boat, but the owners ended up selling it off the Lake.

As I read the rule, it prevents a J88 from using more than one sail of the same type on one day. 

Streetwise......I see the Viper logo.......if one of your Viper fleet shredded their chute, rushed ashore to pick up an old chute......and made it back in time for the last race. How many protest flags in your fleet? 

I am 2 months away from retirement.....intent on fulfilling a promise to my wife that we would spend summers in the NE (where she is from) .....and looking at one design sport boats.

 

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Our only sail restrictions are basically that you cannot own more than one set from a given year. So there wouldn't be a problem.

I probably shouldn't have waded into this thread. I just posted my thoughts on that bit of rule, but I'm not making any judgements on sportsmanship, or the event in question. If I was in the J/88 class, I would probably want to look at that rule.

Feel free to PM me about Vipers or Lake Champlain.

Cheers

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16 minutes ago, IPLore said:

 

I am 2 months away from retirement.....intent on fulfilling a promise to my wife that we would spend summers in the NE (where she is from) .....and looking at one design sport boats.

 

Viper, Lots of old dudes  people  in the class

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On 11/3/2019 at 10:43 AM, VWAP said:

5.3 Sails carried on board and used for J/88 Class or Fleet sanctioned events for inshore buoy racing shall be limited to no more than five sails: one Class mainsail, one Class #1 jib, one Class #2 jib, one Class #1 spinnaker and one Class #2 spinnaker. When in use, jibs are required to be attached to the furling system and capable of being furled. Each Class sail shall comply without exception with the provisions of these Rules.

I wonder what a poll of boats at 2019 NA's would reveal about spinnakers used during the regatta. On the heavy day did anyone use anything but their Class #1 spinnaker? On the light day(s) did anyone use anything but their Class #1 spinnaker? If the answer to these questions is no, maybe it's time for the class to reconsider rule 5.3...

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5 hours ago, ryley said:

This. I usually carry a spare A2 on my boat because leaving it "at the dock" means for most of my races that a torn chute ends my day, not just my race. Even in Marblehead, a round trip from most of the racing areas to the *nearest* dock is around 5 miles or more, so figure an hour assuming you've got shore people who can meet you with the spare. For me it's worse if I'm racing in marblehead and I have to go home for a kite - my dock's 15 miles away so that's basically game over for that day. Fortunately under our bylaws we're allowed 3 spinnakers on board and there's no restrictions on which ones.

I'm not sure what the J88 class gains by limiting the spinnakers to 2 different sized ones carried aboard. As long as the spinnakers on board are measured in, allowing spares seems prudent.

The bigger issue of course is what stayoutofthemiddle's post pointed out - the 'win at all costs' mentality. No class rule fix will fix that.

seems logical to just use the J105 rule of two kites on board and don't delineate which size they must be.  same with their sprit rules.

 

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3 hours ago, bloodshot said:

seems logical to just use the J105 rule of two kites on board and don't delineate which size they must be.  same with their sprit rules.

 

There are some odd differences between these classes for what are essentially the same basic boat. As far as having more than one kite on the boat, that means that a new owner who purchased a new boat does not have to wait for their kites to "age" in order to have spares

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21 minutes ago, RATM said:

 

There are some odd differences between these classes for what are essentially the same basic boat. As far as having more than one kite on the boat, that means that a new owner who purchased a new boat does not have to wait for their kites to "age" in order to have spares

You don't have to wait for anything to age in order to have spares

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23 minutes ago, RATM said:

 

There are some odd differences between these classes for what are essentially the same basic boat. As far as having more than one kite on the boat, that means that a new owner who purchased a new boat does not have to wait for their kites to "age" in order to have spares

I thought J Boats writes the initial class rules anyway.  If so, weird that these choices were made.

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8 hours ago, Streetwise said:

Feel free to PM me about Vipers or Lake Champlain.

Cheers

Vermont?  I'm sure it is beautiful but I'm a Southern good ole boy and I think my blood is too thin for those Arctic climes.

This was a promise I made nearly 30 years ago.   I might try and  persuade her that Annapolis is North East of here but I have a feeling that the short list is  CT, RI or MA. 

As to boats, I will spend some time compiling a short list but it is likely going to include : J70, Melges 20, Viper 640, GP 26 ........or maybe 2 x Lasers :)......and perhaps the J88 which does seem like a good amount of boat for the money although probably requires rustling up too many crew.  

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12 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Vermont?  I'm sure it is beautiful but I'm a Southern good ole boy and I think my blood is too thin for those Arctic climes.

This was a promise I made nearly 30 years ago.   I might try and  persuade her that Annapolis is North East of here but I have a feeling that the short list is  CT, RI or MA. 

As to boats, I will spend some time compiling a short list but it is likely going to include : J70, Melges 20, Viper 640, GP 26 ........or maybe 2 x Lasers :)......and perhaps the J88 which does seem like a good amount of boat for the money although probably requires rustling up too many crew.  

You do realize you are going in the wrong direction? You may be the only one in the country to voluntarily retire in CT. 

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22 hours ago, Streetwise said:

Where did #31 Alchemy end up?

I am sorry to have lost track of hull #31, but will inform you if it resurfaces.

 

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6 minutes ago, MakePHRFGreatAgain said:

You do realize you are going in the wrong direction? You may be the only one in the country to voluntarily retire in CT. 

Stoppe, the humorre is notte sharred beyonde WLIS.  Pleasae stoppe.  We looke so terribelle when you do thisse.

You oure my brothere, I gette thet...........       plesae...                  :)               

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9 minutes ago, marcus brutus said:

I am sorry to have lost track of hull #31, but will inform you if it resurfaces.

 

Lake Norman from a PM, and I think the POs mentioned that.

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10 hours ago, samsonite said:

I wonder what a poll of boats at 2019 NA's would reveal about spinnakers used during the regatta. On the heavy day did anyone use anything but their Class #1 spinnaker? On the light day(s) did anyone use anything but their Class #1 spinnaker? If the answer to these questions is no, maybe it's time for the class to reconsider rule 5.3...

If there is an issue class members can and should  look at the class rules. Of interest here looking at what M.B. tried to write on this it is clear these simple rules are difficult for some to understand. They might need to somehow simplify the rules so certain people can understand them .

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On 11/1/2019 at 12:13 PM, leahey09 said:

As a young class we have some growing pains to tackle and we're learning.  As a class we're the ones writing the rules, agreeing, and sailing by those rules.   

The basic principle of sportsmanship & the rules; Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce.

In this case there was confusion around the wording of class rule and the end result was disappointing for all parties involved - there is no winner when this occurs and no one wants to have a regatta end that way.   

The owners sat down for season ending dinner and discussed how to prevent an incident like this going forward.  Mainly, taking the time to talk and listen to each other (in calm fashion) at the dock before going to the room.  If you are not calm manner, bring in another owner to arbitrate.  

The fleet owners and crew here are a small community - we're all friends and spend a lot of time together -sailing, hanging out, talking,  drinking, texting, emailing, and helping each other not only with the 88 but other boats we sailing and even activities outside sailing.   Its awesome to be part of a growing fleet and with any young/new fleet we have some growing pains. 

We're learning and are making improvements to the fleet/class going forward.  We only have so much time for sailing - anything we can do make it better is a win.  

Perusing through the LMPHRF website

https://lmphrf.org/index.php/display-a-handicap,

I was surprised to find that none of the 11 J/88s from Lake Michigan Fleet #4 had a valid 2019 Rating Certificate that is required to enter, race, and be scored in a PHRF Section such as

https://yachtscoring.com/event_results_cumulative.cfm?eID=9446     

or

https://yachtscoring.com/event_results_detail.cfm?Race_Number=1&eID=9477

or 

https://www.ssyc.org/queens-cup/2019-queens-cup-race-results/1740-qc2019-final-queens-cup-phrf-results-updated-on-6-29-19/file

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2019 J/88 LMPHRF handicaps

Ignore the 2018 issued certificates

Sail # Yacht Name Yacht Type Issued on BHCP HCP DHCP NSHCP CL  
 
21 Banter J/88 2018-04-24 84 141 138 162 8  
USA 82 Blondie 2 J/88 2018-02-03 84 81 78 111 9  
USA 29 Dutch J/88 2018-08-29 84 84 81 111 9  
88 Exile J/88 2018-04-27 84 84 81 111 8  
83 Hokey Smoke J/88 2018-03-27 84 81 78 108 8  
28 Legacy J/88 2018-04-14 84 87 84 114 8  
12 Rambler J/88 2018-02-17 84 84 81 111 8  
USA 38 Slot Machine J/88 2018-01-31 84 84 81 111 8  
USA 89 Slyaza II J/88 2018-04-30 84 81 78 108 8  
USA 30 Windsong J/88 2018-02-12 84          

 

21 Banter J/88 2019-03-17 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate
USA82 Blondie 2 J/88 2019-04-11 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate
USA29 Dutch J/88 2019-05-08 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate
88 Exile J/88 2019-02-15 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate
75 J88 J/88 2019-08-26 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate
12 Misty J/88 2019-06-19 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate
USA89 Slyaza II J/88 2019-03-26 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate

 

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2 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

2019 J/88 LMPHRF handicaps

Ignore the 2018 issued certificates

Sail # Yacht Name Yacht Type Issued on BHCP HCP DHCP NSHCP CL  
 
21 Banter J/88 2018-04-24 84 141 138 162 8  
USA 82 Blondie 2 J/88 2018-02-03 84 81 78 111 9  
USA 29 Dutch J/88 2018-08-29 84 84 81 111 9  
88 Exile J/88 2018-04-27 84 84 81 111 8  
83 Hokey Smoke J/88 2018-03-27 84 81 78 108 8  
28 Legacy J/88 2018-04-14 84 87 84 114 8  
12 Rambler J/88 2018-02-17 84 84 81 111 8  
USA 38 Slot Machine J/88 2018-01-31 84 84 81 111 8  
USA 89 Slyaza II J/88 2018-04-30 84 81 78 108 8  
USA 30 Windsong J/88 2018-02-12 84          

 

21 Banter J/88 2019-03-17 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate
USA82 Blondie 2 J/88 2019-04-11 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate
USA29 Dutch J/88 2019-05-08 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate
88 Exile J/88 2019-02-15 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate
75 J88 J/88 2019-08-26 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate
12 Misty J/88 2019-06-19 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate
USA89 Slyaza II J/88 2019-03-26 84 84 81 114 8 View the Certificate

 

Many thanks for your clarification, jerseyguy.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

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32 minutes ago, marcus brutus said:

Many thanks for your clarification, jerseyguy.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

No culpas necessary, maxima or otherwise

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