Sign in to follow this  
TrailingEdge

Musto Sucks

Recommended Posts

I chose to put this topic in main Anarchy, because everyone needs to see this, rather than just the Gear Anarchy people.

Musto has been known as one of the "best" products you can buy for sailing for decades. Everyone you used to talk to would say the same thing, everyone who worked in the industry would buy it, most real sailors had it, etc. Well here comes the problem with Musto besides that my stuff is currently leaking, they do not stand behind their products anymore, period. The new warranty process put in place, is the most asinine thing I have every heard of. Maybe it is the fact that Helly Hansen bought it, but I just don't know anymore

My current kit includes Musto Mpx Race Jacket, Musto MPX Salopettes, Musto MPX Offshore Jacket, and Musto MPX Smock. 

Problems and Warranty differences

1. MPX Race Jacket zipper does not function properly. I have cleaned it, sanded it lightly to make sure it wasn't dirty still, washed it out regularly, used zip care products etc. From the time I bought this jacket, to current model they have changed the zippers. The reason being, they knew the zipper was shit plain and simple. I know multiple people who had the same problem, they tried to warranty their jacket, and Musto would not do anything about it. So I knew what was going to happen, but since most of us don't have $775 to buy a new jacket every few years, I tried anyway as I think 5 years is a good run, but still expect more out of a jacket.  In fact, they denied my warranty claim, as I now have a jacket that I am afraid every time I try to zip it, it will rip apart due to the force needed. However, even with all that, it wasn't even that bad of a warranty process. This all happened right before they changed everything. The process was, go to the store you bought the gear, they contact Musto, they work with their reps, and then figure out what the best way forward is after inspection. All things considered, one would agree this warranty process was easy for customers. 

2. Out in shitty weather this weekend, blowing 25-30, rain pouring, and low and behold, there is a puddle in my right sleeve of my MPX Smock. This is a smock, that I wear twice a year at most, and clearly, is not worn out at all as it is 4 years old. Once we got back to the dock, I took it off and inspected how wet I was to determine if it was just coming down the seal, or if it was leaking. As I had the seals at the arms, and neck cranked down, one would expect a little dampness on the sleeve at the bottom, and around the collar. As expected, there was, however not bad, and everywhere else I was dry. My right arm though, was completely soaked, with a small dry spot between the lower part of my wrist, it was soaked all the way up past the elbow, and dry from the shoulders down to that spot. With that, I knew it wasn't just coming in at the seal. Now comes the fun part. The store I bought it at, said they no longer can do the warranty claims as Musto has changed the process. As explained you now have to go directly to Musto, so I did. To begin with, this is even a fucked up process. One would expect a retailer actually be able to help, but nope, so that change sucks when you are in the US, and it is a UK company. After days of no response, Musto finally sends an email back and says, you have to send it to a Gore-Tex approved facility since that is the process for products using Gore-Tex. In their response, they include you can send it to a company in Scotland. I am in the US, did you not read the fucking email Musto? Furthermore, I did not buy the product from Gore-Tex, I bought the product, with the Musto tag in it. I don't care you used the Gore-Tex fabric, but my contract is with you as the manufacturer, not with the fabric company you used. To expect customers from around the world to box it up, and ship it to a company you have never heard of is a huge lack of customer support, and almost a fuck you, find someone else to deal with it. Furthermore, it feels like a giant cop out. How would they even know it was the fabric, maybe it was faulty construction at the seam.

That being said, I just don't know if I can even support Musto anymore if they are going to keep up this shit. Yes every company has problems with gear. However, it is how you treat customers, which dictates how long a customer stays with your product. They certainly are not doing anyone any favors, and ultimately seem to be okay with pushing people away. I would urge everyone to take this into consideration, before they spend the dollars. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My understanding is the marine foul weather gear business is struggling pretty hard these days.  Might be related to the big boat sailing business?  You typically only see sailors wearing the Musto gear.

Bet power boaters are wearing stuff you can get from REI, North Face and other outdoor outerwear manufacturers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FYI, this is standard protocol for garments in the outdoor industry. If the jacket does not fail due to a seam or other manufacturing defect, it goes to Gore. In the end if the Gore-Tex is an issue they will give you a credit with Musto. I’m going through  this process due to a pair of HPX bibs delaminating in the chest area. Used 20 long days over the past two years. Also I’ve done this in the past with Mtn Hardware and Arc Teryx, and yes it’s a PIA. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You mentioned Helly Hansen.  They were sold to Canadian Tire Corp in 2018, after being sold by InvestCorp in 2006 (I believe).  The conglomerates continue to pool like drops of spilled liquid mercury.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. SOP for outdoor gear. This is not a new warranty process for MUSTO, you simply made them mail it to the folks for you. I've been sending mine to a gore facility in Seattle for the last two decades.

2. If the zipper bugs you, go to your local repair store. Any major metro has a shop worth its salt that will fix. We've got a bomb outdoors repair store in town. She can fix any zipper, ten seconds flat. If not, $30 and a new one is in next week. There's local help for that. Saved me a ton of time on multiple jackets and sleeping bags.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My 5 year old HPX is mint, reason being that its so expensive that I keep using the shitty Gill and Henry Loyd gear so I can save the gold plated stuff for special occasions, in other word a bit of a waste of money as I dont do ocean races.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Small great company sold to big company sold to bigger company.  Quality/service disappears.  SHOCKED.

 

Thanks for the post OP. Now I know I need to take really, really good care of my already 8-year old 1500$ worth of kit.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's a shame they've devolved like this. I don't know of any other foulie manufacturer that has had this long a run of good reputation go south so fast. I've got a pair of mpx bibs that have been going strong for 15 years now. I'll keep patching the holes and rips with duck tape until they fall apart. they're probably seen a few hundred days use with a lot of offshore miles. Bought a new pair in London a couple years ago at their big store in the Embankment. They are now my Sunday go to meeting foulies ... big MPX offshore jacket I bought at the same time has already sprouted a couple leaks along a seam. it's not the Gore-Tex.. it's the put-together.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are now owned by Canadian Tire, which is you've ever owned any of their tools you know it's not a good thing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In June I purchased a new Musto MPX jacket pre- Transpac to replace my knackered old MPX jacket that maybe had ten years plus use in Transpacs, Pac Cups and Mexico races plus whatever else I was doing. In September I bought new MPX bibs to replace 10 year old+  salopettes.  Did the Ostend race on a 51'  which ended up being a 6 hour fire hose reach.  They both worked perfectly.  I fully expect to get 10 plus years of use out of them.

Your mileage will vary!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a feeling this has a lot to do with prop 65 and companies switching materials that are prop 65 complaint. I think this is going to affect all all outer ware in the near term, I would hold off on all new outerwear if you can. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, alctel said:

They are now owned by Canadian Tire, which is you've ever owned any of their tools you know it's not a good thing

 

3 hours ago, Geff said:

You mentioned Helly Hansen.  They were sold to Canadian Tire Corp in 2018, after being sold by InvestCorp in 2006 (I believe).  The conglomerates continue to pool like drops of spilled liquid mercury.

Um...yeah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't understand why oilskins are so damn expensive.  They're on a par with a bespoke suit, made to measure from quality cloth with all the neat features, plus an extra pair of trousers.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Whinging Pom said:

I can't understand why oilskins are so damn expensive.  They're on a par with a bespoke suit, made to measure from quality cloth with all the neat features, plus an extra pair of trousers.

 

 

Yeah but try pissing in your suit and see how it goes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Whinging Pom said:

I can't understand why oilskins are so damn expensive.  They're on a par with a bespoke suit, made to measure from quality cloth with all the neat features, plus an extra pair of trousers.

Tiny, tiny, tiny market compared to outdoor hiking etc companies. So zero buying power with Gore, no discounts for large orders.

Standard story. Small makers with a small business; original owner/family want to cash out and so sell to VC, who need to scale up to justify the acquisition. Quality falls. See Musto, HL, Sperry(?) etc... Are Zhik next

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My number 1 jacket is just one mum & dad bought as a souvenir in Canada for $100, it’s not a sailing jacket. 
 

Its about 10% less waterproof than my $500 GILL OS2 jacket which I think is pretty average. It soaks through easily & it has 4.6 out of 5 stars on google, apparently. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Musto  gear looks fabulous but I wouldn't get it wet. I just pop down below if it starts raining.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Presuming Ed said:

Tiny, tiny, tiny market compared to ...

Small market comprised of the “leisure class” who spend silly amounts of money on recreational toys (boats, sails etc.) and often belong to expensive clubs. Most marketing analysis would suggest you can extract the most value from the "yachting segment" with premium pricing rather than going for value pricing and large volume (that is not there).

I find looking for markets with similar functional needs but bigger volumes and greater price sensitivity often works well for my humble needs – I can get pretty functional stuff for much less. I’m old enough the “cool factor” matters not. I’ve sometimes been seen in camo base layers etc. I rarely have the cool all black look – black is the new black, in fact I often am in clashing colours. But I’m in comfortable, breathable, dry stuff that works.

I look in hunting suppliers and commercial fisheries suppliers. Commercial fishers are out in unpleasant weather, care about their comfort and exert themselves – criteria not far off sailing needs.

I’m not talking:

  image.png

I’m thinking more:

NA-BI227_SALMON_DV_20100930185231.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Yeah but try pissing in your suit and see how it goes.

I wait until I piss myself out before I step into the extra pair of trousers. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cycling, Sailing and Golf are all good at extracting huge amounts of money from their participants to dress up in stupid clothing. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don’t forget Climate protesting

May not be expensive to you, but it’s all they’ve got and they’re putting it on the line to make a statement. Like hippy brand awareness

 

7D078E43-4746-48D5-8539-DCDB1BA62C20.png

C3C174C3-FF9F-4B33-80F5-D50ABB1F043F.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Cycling, Sailing and Golf are all good at extracting huge amounts of money from their participants to dress up in stupid clothing. 

I cycle along with sailing. I haven't spent $100 on my winter cycling gear in the past 5 years because I bought reasonably good stuff when it was on sale online.

So I would like to know from the crowd that knows via experience:  What is the best-value foul weather gear available today?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Presuming Ed said:

Tiny, tiny, tiny market compared to

Helly Hansen.  When we were in Norway recently (wearing our Musto gear), every workman - road workers, dock workers, deckhands, oil workers, tradesmen - wore Helly Hansen.  Every souvenir store  (even on the Hurtigruten ships) sold Helly Hansen.  The shopping centres and sports shops all sold Helly Hansen.  Helly Hansen were ubiquitous.  It astounded me how much larger than Musto they were.  The Scandis know Musto (several times we were identified as sailors because of our Musto gear), but they all wear HH.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Item 1. I also purchased a MPX race jacket with a "defective" zipper. It is a pain, but once zipped, it is good to go. Been meaning to take it to a local tailor to see if the zipper can be replaced,  but I just wear my old Musto gear instead. 15 year old smock still works fine. Any recommendations for replacing the zip?

 

BTW, I never pay any attention to warranties, especially the ones that cost extra. Either you stand behind your product, or you don't. The zipper, on the other hand,  is probably my fault for ordering it online before trying.  Zipper was shit from day one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You need to specify YKK watertight outdoor zippers. YKK is a virtual monopoly of high quality zippers and also leases manufacturing machinery to produce zippers to other zipper manufacturers. 
 

IOW. If it isn’t YKK it isn’t a good zipper. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Cycling, Sailing and Golf are all good at extracting huge amounts of money from their participants to dress up in stupid clothing. 

+ Equestrian sports.  A horsey friend of mine came sailing and was very surprised to see me wearing a jacket with 'Musto' on it...they try to sell to the equestrian mob but the gear's considered pricey even by their standards.

I get best value out of wearing my jacket skiing (when it isn't raining)...also provides a great conversation starter with other yachties when riding the lifts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Cycling, Sailing and Golf are all good at extracting huge amounts of money from their participants to dress up in stupid clothing. 

Two out of three ain't bad for me.  And no way am I chasing a small white ball around the country side.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KC375 said:

 

I look in hunting suppliers and commercial fisheries suppliers. Commercial fishers are out in unpleasant weather, care about their comfort and exert themselves – criteria not far off sailing needs.

 

I nabbed a pair of Le Chameau Neptune boots at a commercial fisheries supplier for a quarter of the price that normal "yachting" retailers sold them at. They were so cheap that I actually questioned if their price was correct.

My local fisheries supplier closed down many moons ago, but as a kid it was always my first port of call when trying to find poor man's sailing gear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PITA said:

+ Equestrian sports.  A horsey friend of mine came sailing and was very surprised to see me wearing a jacket with 'Musto' on it...they try to sell to the equestrian mob but the gear's considered pricey even by their standards.

I get best value out of wearing my jacket skiing (when it isn't raining)...also provides a great conversation starter with other yachties when riding the lifts.

I have been wearing my wet weather leggings for skiing for years. The Japanese keep asking were can they buy them. The work a treat for skiers that spend as much time on there arse as me.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I went across the English Channel a few years ago on an IMOCA with a skipper who had done the Vendee Globe a few years ago in a much older boat with none of the cockpit protection of the modern boats.  He said there was only one brand which measured up for the Southern Ocean...Guy Cotten, as used by offshore fishermen.  

Go figure...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of my crew has bought the cotton stuff - had to import it from france i think. good from all accounts

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, PITA said:

+ Equestrian sports.  A horsey friend of mine came sailing and was very surprised to see me wearing a jacket with 'Musto' on it...they try to sell to the equestrian mob but the gear's considered pricey even by their standards.

I get best value out of wearing my jacket skiing (when it isn't raining)...also provides a great conversation starter with other yachties when riding the lifts.

They're trying to get into the shooting world as well................... no thanks.

https://www.musto.com/en_GB/mens/coats-and-jackets/shooting/

Image result for musto shooting jacket"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They've been selling shooting stuff for about as long as the horse kit.

AIUI, the story is that Keith's daughter was into ponies, so Keith was getting dragged along to pony club, gymkhanas etc. Discovered that the choice for green coats was PVC or waxed cottton - Barbour and similar. Thought "I'm not wearing that... there might be a market here." And it's a short step from green coats for horse people to green coats for shooters.

Also AIUI, they pretty much bet the whole company on a container full of Polartec fleece when Malden Mills first started making it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Yeah but try pissing in your suit and see how it goes.

It givers you a warm feeling but no-one really notices?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not just UK companies offering bad warrantee service to US customers, the screen fell off my 3 month old apple watch, they told me to go and fuck myself.  

Just saying...

I find the Gill inshore stuff is not the most comfortable, or the longest lasting, but better value, so less painful to replace every 2 years.  Been sailing for 30 years, never had a set of 'waterproofs' dry after 1 year, no matter who makes them or how much they charge, just try to not get angry about it any more, or believe any of the overblown hype they keep spouting.

Is it just me, or are most manufacturers becoming as honest and accountable as politicians?  When did I stop being a loyal customer, and started being a mark?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Varan said:

Item 1. I also purchased a MPX race jacket with a "defective" zipper. It is a pain, but once zipped, it is good to go. Been meaning to take it to a local tailor to see if the zipper can be replaced,  but I just wear my old Musto gear instead. 15 year old smock still works fine. Any recommendations for replacing the zip?

 

BTW, I never pay any attention to warranties, especially the ones that cost extra. Either you stand behind your product, or you don't. The zipper, on the other hand,  is probably my fault for ordering it online before trying.  Zipper was shit from day one. 

I suggest you get in touch with Rainy Pass Repair in Seattle if you want a new zipper, http://rainypass.com/shop-info/ The best gear repair place in the US. I taken a ton of gear to them and the alterations or fixes have been perfect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, maxstaylock said:

... Been sailing for 30 years, never had a set of 'waterproofs' dry after 1 year, no matter who makes them or how much they charge, just try to not get angry about it any more, or believe any of the overblown hype they keep spouting.

Line 7 was some durable shit!

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

Line 7 was some durable shit!

 

My Line 7 Challenge jacket (white) was purchased new for the 1981 Hobart. I think I finally threw it out in about 2004. Went through a few overalls in that time but the jacket stayed usable for a very long time. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, maxstaylock said:

It's not just UK companies offering bad warrantee service to US customers, the screen fell off my 3 month old apple watch, they told me to go and fuck myself.  

Just saying...

I find the Gill inshore stuff is not the most comfortable, or the longest lasting, but better value, so less painful to replace every 2 years.  Been sailing for 30 years, never had a set of 'waterproofs' dry after 1 year, no matter who makes them or how much they charge, just try to not get angry about it any more, or believe any of the overblown hype they keep spouting.

Is it just me, or are most manufacturers becoming as honest and accountable as politicians?  When did I stop being a loyal customer, and started being a mark?

Agree with this...the trouble is when you’re 2000 miles from nowhere with wet foulies that are supposedly top of the line from any of the manufacturers, warranty help doesn’t cut it. I will say that Zhik U.S stands behind their products, as does Ronstan and some other smaller brands. I bring Ronstan up as I think the aussies have enough home-grown market to stay in business.

 So what gear holds up new in 2019? Sounds like the H/H line may be good, as stated above they cater to real nasty everyday conditions then tailor some products to sailors needs. My HH ski jacket has similar construction to the best sailing jackets and is dry as a bone, with plenty of flexibility. This is the version the ski guides at the big mountains use, so top of the line.

Oh, one other rambling thought, the big boys carry a few extra sets of gear and typically get new for each leg of a VOR or something like a transatlantic.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dry and hard wearing and cheap OR breathable.

As others have said, if you want to be dry offshore, just pick whatever brand the local fishermen / workboat guys use, it's Guy Cotten in France, but everywhere has many manufacturers competing for a larger market than sailors.  Lasts 10 years, high vis for safety, lets you laugh at the green stuff.  Might need an old dish towel round the neck. Cheap as chips.  But you sweat like a paedo in a playground when you work.  So cheap inshore breathable gear for day sailing, replaced often, and a good old set of tarps for when you need to face the worst.  Same for boots, keep Goretex for inside the safe water mark, if you need to show off, or move quickly.  But when you need to be waterproof, be waterproof.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've given up on buying new stuff. Tried gill, henri lloyd, helly hanson> X,000s spent. I now rely on 40 year old Line 7; at least I know I'll be dry. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dry?  The salt water may be on the outside,  but around here you can swim in the sweat inside.

And yes I did use the line & stuff,  probably did my first 10 -12 Hobarts in 2 sets of it,  AND I had the fancy lined ones and still ended up wet from sweat.

That are warm though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/1/2019 at 8:56 PM, samc99us said:

Agree with this...the trouble is when you’re 2000 miles from nowhere with wet foulies that are supposedly top of the line from any of the manufacturers, warranty help doesn’t cut it.

You've nailed it, the problem with the retail market is they're really struggling to stay profitable and it's easy to embrace the same attitude of there competitors and that helps dictate what the warranty and quality will be (Product obsolescence), that's not a good feeling when taking that type of gear offshore wondering if it will hold up?  It's almost like they've forgotten the ones who really need the gear and not have it fail. Almost all sailing gear and fabrics are now made in Asia.

The OP write up is what is needed to help these companies stay honest with there quality and warranty. They're just trying to get away with what the retail market will bear instead of making gear they can confidential stand behind for many years and hence give it a long warranty. That kind of quality and attitude is what makes the gear shine 2000 miles offshore but that would be way more expensive to produce.

I had some issues with my very favorite & very expensive Dubarry gore-tex leather sailing boots, to my surprise they said I'm out of warranty but they'll give me a 20% discount for a new pair which is useless as you can buy them for less everywhere else, I asked what the warranty is and they said it's now for only 1 year! How could I possibly trust a company selling $400 sailing boots but will only stand behind them for 1 year warranty ? It's not the same Dubarry and doesn't give me too much confidence buying a new pair, taking them offshore wondering how long will these last? Will they even last 2 yrs? Maybe

There are some truly amazing new fabrics by Gore and by other similar companies that are very robust and exceptional compared to previous generations but you won't see them in the retail market; there're way too expensive so Gore supplies there retail clients much cheaper fabric to help them stay competitive/profitable. If you want the very best & durable Gore-Tex gear, just look at the private military clothing lines. Even Patagonia (Lost Arrow Project) and Arc'Teryx (Leaf) produce usa made lines for this very private & lucrative market, the prices are crazy, crazy high and heavily in demand, they make Musto foulie prices look cheap. This also applies to some pro sailing teams sponsored by foulie companies, they get the gucci robust Gore fabrics, all handmade and double checked (I've been lucky race with it and still have) but you won't find it in the retail models sold in stores even though they look the same.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spent 15 years commercial fishing and always used HH or Grundens, no leaks, good value

Boating recreationally and Sailing since a kid and always used HH or Grundens, no leaks, good value

Did buy my wife a top of the line Gill Jacket and Pant set, use them lightly but very good.

Like anything, as products change ownership so does quality and customer service, too bad for Musto.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, spectator said:

You've nailed it, the problem with the retail market is they're really struggling to stay profitable and it's easy to embrace the same attitude of there competitors and that helps dictate what the warranty and quality will be (Product obsolescence), that's not a good feeling when taking that type of gear offshore wondering if it will hold up?  It's almost like they've forgotten the ones who really need the gear and not have it fail. Almost all sailing gear and fabrics are now made in Asia.

The OP write up is what is needed to help these companies stay honest with there quality and warranty. They're just trying to get away with what the retail market will bear instead of making gear they can confidential stand behind for many years and hence give it a long warranty. That kind of quality and attitude is what makes the gear shine 2000 miles offshore but that would be way more expensive to produce.

I had some issues with my very favorite & very expensive Dubarry gore-tex leather sailing boots, to my surprise they said I'm out of warranty but they'll give me a 20% discount for a new pair which is useless as you can buy them for less everywhere else, I asked what the warranty is and they said it's now for only 1 year! How could I possibly trust a company selling $400 sailing boots but will only stand behind them for 1 year warranty ? It's not the same Dubarry and doesn't give me too much confidence buying a new pair, taking them offshore wondering how long will these last? Will they even last 2 yrs? Maybe

There are some truly amazing new fabrics by Gore and by other similar companies that are very robust and exceptional compared to previous generations but you won't see them in the retail market; there're way too expensive so Gore supplies there retail clients much cheaper fabric to help them stay competitive/profitable. If you want the very best & durable Gore-Tex gear, just look at the private military clothing lines. Even Patagonia (Lost Arrow Project) and Arc'Teryx (Leaf) produce usa made lines for this very private & lucrative market, the prices are crazy, crazy high and heavily in demand, they make Musto foulie prices look cheap. This also applies to some pro sailing teams sponsored by foulie companies, they get the gucci robust Gore fabrics, all handmade and double checked (I've been lucky race with it and still have) but you won't find it in the retail models sold in stores even though they look the same.

All of this. Musto now has the warranty on their site for 2 years only. Once those two years expire, they state, Gore picks up the warranty  with their "Guaranteed to Keep you Dry" policy. So even if it isn't the fabric after 2 years, and actual construction starts failing, there is nothing which will cover you.  No one, should expect to replace a $775 MPX Race Jacket every 2 years, that is insane. Musto previously, and other companies used to say for the life of the garment, While that ambiguity left it open for interpretation, most people think a item of these prices, should last considerably longer than 5 years, yet alone the 2 they offer now.  If it is a design defect that shows up later, it is not their problem any longer. That seems to be an issue in the OP. They certainly did change the zippers over the model years, maybe that doesn't happen unless their is a problem, but us customers will never know.

For my own sake, I decided to look into this further in case anything in the future arises. Below is what happens when you contact Gore. Which, even at first look, feels like you are getting the run around. Who has an initial receipt these days? Furthermore, if you look into the fine print on their website, they will only cover your costs to your purchase price via a credit to the manufacturer. While sure, that is 100% of what you paid and semi-reasonable, every year these products are going up in price. That $400  item you bought is now, $600. For a something that should not have failed, you still would be on the hook for $200. Even if Musto were to offer you cost on a new one, that still is a lot of money for people.  I don't see this changing, but it certainly would be nice to have a company stand by their product and customer base, without always looking at the bottom line, profit.

Thank you for contacting GORE-TEX Brand Services.  Please provide us with some additional information so that we can handle your case with the highest level of efficiency and accuracy. Before we take a look at your item, we will need to establish some initial information to determine the item’s overall condition. This is important because the item to be returned must have useful life left and not be excessively damaged or worn-out.

 Please answer the questions below to the best of your ability:

 Brand?

 Style or model name? 

 GORE-TEX technology, if known?  (This information can often be found on the sleeve or tag.)

 Size of the item? 

 Where did you purchase the item?

 What year did you purchase the product/s?

 What was the price you paid including tax?

 Please attach a copy of your initial receipt.

 How have you cared for the item? (Washing, care instructions, etc.)

 Is the item damaged? (tears, punctures, heavy abrasion etc.) If so please explain.

 Where is the specific location/s you are experiencing the leak/ delamination?

 Please describe the conditions or activity in which you experienced the leak or noticed the delamination.

 Please attach pictures of the item’s current condition (front, back, and inside), the area/s of leakage, any damaged areas, tread on the soles (for footwear), our GORE-TEX tag, and the manufacturer's tag.

 * PLEASE NOTE* Pictures may need to be sent in multiple emails if the attachment size exceeds 10MB. Attachments 10MB and smaller can be received without issue.

 Please provide your mailing address. If you prefer the option to receive a call related to you case, please provide your phone number, if not previously provided.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a mostly rubbery Grundens rain smock.  I'm dry as a bone... as long as I remember to strip off a layer before it goes on.  Cheap and dry, unless you start sweating.  Then it's like swimming in a ZipLoc bag of bacon and cheddar soup.

Grundens also seems to be piloting a bunch of Goretex stuff. I think Fawcetts had some at the Annapolis boat show.  It looks to cost about as much as Gil, maybe a little less.  It will surely be a hit with the fishing set and looks like it might be sailor friendly.  I'm going to try it because I'm pretty disappointed with the low/midrange stuff (Gil, Henry Loyd) stuff I've tried so far and am hearing a lot of mixed news about Musto.  (Caveat that the HL I've tried is newer stuff, not the legendary old HL, and Gil is, well, Gill, pretty good not great). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, trimfast said:

All of this. Musto now has the warranty on their site for 2 years only. Once those two years expire, they state, Gore picks up the warranty  with their "Guaranteed to Keep you Dry" policy. So even if it isn't the fabric after 2 years, and actual construction starts failing, there is nothing which will cover you.  No one, should expect to replace a $775 MPX Race Jacket every 2 years, that is insane. Musto previously, and other companies used to say for the life of the garment, While that ambiguity left it open for interpretation, most people think a item of these prices, should last considerably longer than 5 years, yet alone the 2 they offer now.  If it is a design defect that shows up later, it is not their problem any longer. That seems to be an issue in the OP. They certainly did change the zippers over the model years, maybe that doesn't happen unless their is a problem, but us customers will never know.

For my own sake, I decided to look into this further in case anything in the future arises. Below is what happens when you contact Gore. Which, even at first look, feels like you are getting the run around. Who has an initial receipt these days? Furthermore, if you look into the fine print on their website, they will only cover your costs to your purchase price via a credit to the manufacturer. While sure, that is 100% of what you paid and semi-reasonable, every year these products are going up in price. That $400  item you bought is now, $600. For a something that should not have failed, you still would be on the hook for $200. Even if Musto were to offer you cost on a new one, that still is a lot of money for people.  I don't see this changing, but it certainly would be nice to have a company stand by their product and customer base, without always looking at the bottom line, profit.

Thank you for contacting GORE-TEX Brand Services.  Please provide us with some additional information so that we can handle your case with the highest level of efficiency and accuracy. Before we take a look at your item, we will need to establish some initial information to determine the item’s overall condition. This is important because the item to be returned must have useful life left and not be excessively damaged or worn-out.

 Please answer the questions below to the best of your ability:

 Brand?

 Style or model name? 

 GORE-TEX technology, if known?  (This information can often be found on the sleeve or tag.)

 Size of the item? 

 Where did you purchase the item?

 What year did you purchase the product/s?

 What was the price you paid including tax?

 Please attach a copy of your initial receipt.

 How have you cared for the item? (Washing, care instructions, etc.)

 Is the item damaged? (tears, punctures, heavy abrasion etc.) If so please explain.

 Where is the specific location/s you are experiencing the leak/ delamination?

 Please describe the conditions or activity in which you experienced the leak or noticed the delamination.

 Please attach pictures of the item’s current condition (front, back, and inside), the area/s of leakage, any damaged areas, tread on the soles (for footwear), our GORE-TEX tag, and the manufacturer's tag.

 * PLEASE NOTE* Pictures may need to be sent in multiple emails if the attachment size exceeds 10MB. Attachments 10MB and smaller can be received without issue.

 Please provide your mailing address. If you prefer the option to receive a call related to you case, please provide your phone number, if not previously provided.

Wow, that just makes me want to look for alternatives to Goretex. Fortunately there are some (looks like event, neoshell and dryvent are all in the running).

some of the brands to look out for, and how they differ from Gore-Tex.

  • eVent: The most high-profile Gore-Tex alternative, made using an ePTFE (ie. stretched teflon) membrane that's similar to Gore-Tex. Initially developed by BHA group but eventually acquired by GE Energy (ripe for 30 rock parody) and licensed to clothing manufactures to be sold under different names.
  • Sympatex: Waterproof, windproof, and breathable membrane made from a "closed" polyther-polyester copolymer. It differs from eVent and Gore-Tex in that it doesn't have micropores for breathability--water vapor is passed through by way of an absorption and evaporation process.
  • Omni-Dry: Columbia sportswear's proprietary fabric.
  • NeoShell: Another recent major competitor to Gore-Tex, by Polartec. Claims to be the most breathable waterproof fabric on the market by not requiring high heat or pressure for air flow.
  • OutDry and Dry. Q: Proprietary technologies owned by Mountain Hardware clothing company. OutDry omits extra layers between the breathable membrane and outer shell, so water is not kept in the garment. Dry Q. lets moisture and air pass without getting warm. and uses technology licensed from GE's eVent.
  • HyVent: The North Face's own proprietary fabric.
  • H2No: Made by Patagonia, uses polyester and polyurethane laminates to achieve waterproofing and breathability. Reportedly very durable.
  • MemBrain: Similar to H2No in that it uses a polyurethane polymer laminate, but doesn't "breathe" as well as Gore-Tex.

Ski wear comparison that rates event, neoshell and dryvent pretty high

Another from outdoor jacket view

Unfortunately not yet targetted at sailing market.

If making a warranty claim with Goretex, never hurts to let them know you are aware of alternatives and that the Goretex claim process makes the alternatives more attractive

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, KC375 said:

Wow, that just makes me want to look for alternatives to Goretex. Fortunately there are some (looks like event, neoshell and dryvent are all in the running).

some of the brands to look out for, and how they differ from Gore-Tex.

  • eVent: The most high-profile Gore-Tex alternative, made using an ePTFE (ie. stretched teflon) membrane that's similar to Gore-Tex. Initially developed by BHA group but eventually acquired by GE Energy (ripe for 30 rock parody) and licensed to clothing manufactures to be sold under different names.
  • Sympatex: Waterproof, windproof, and breathable membrane made from a "closed" polyther-polyester copolymer. It differs from eVent and Gore-Tex in that it doesn't have micropores for breathability--water vapor is passed through by way of an absorption and evaporation process.
  • Omni-Dry: Columbia sportswear's proprietary fabric.
  • NeoShell: Another recent major competitor to Gore-Tex, by Polartec. Claims to be the most breathable waterproof fabric on the market by not requiring high heat or pressure for air flow.
  • OutDry and Dry. Q: Proprietary technologies owned by Mountain Hardware clothing company. OutDry omits extra layers between the breathable membrane and outer shell, so water is not kept in the garment. Dry Q. lets moisture and air pass without getting warm. and uses technology licensed from GE's eVent.
  • HyVent: The North Face's own proprietary fabric.
  • H2No: Made by Patagonia, uses polyester and polyurethane laminates to achieve waterproofing and breathability. Reportedly very durable.
  • MemBrain: Similar to H2No in that it uses a polyurethane polymer laminate, but doesn't "breathe" as well as Gore-Tex.

Ski wear comparison that rates event, neoshell and dryvent pretty high

Another from outdoor jacket view

Unfortunately not yet targetted at sailing market.

If making a warranty claim with Goretex, never hurts to let them know you are aware of alternatives and that the Goretex claim process makes the alternatives more attractive

 

The problem is finding alternative non sailing clothing shells to save money is that it's not as durable as good Musto/Gill level sailing gear. I do a lot of climbing and long distance mountain running in bad weather and constantly searching for good gear. Even my really good and expensive mountain climbing shells are no where near as durable or as tough as my sailing gear nor do they have the seals to prevent water ingress, they would get trashed if worn while racing. You can use them but there's no way they will last as long especially in a racing environment or while working around the boat fixing things while sailing offshore.

And this is the problem with the list above, almost all of them are going after the outdoor retail market and do not offer the thicker and much more durable breathable fabrics that you need in sailing gear. Also need to take into account, the much thicker and more friction resistant shell fabrics needed in sailing are exponentially more expensive than the lightweight Gore-tex fabric you see in a Arc'Teryx jacket. Friction wear on shell fabrics is a big deal in sailing and when adding that feature to a fabric that also has to be breathable & waterproof cranks up the price considerably which then effects how much they can spend making the jacket.

The one alternative clothing that can be relevant for sailing is kayaking gear. You can find some really good breathable smocks for super cheap prices on Amazon and eBay but far from perfect and you will need to do a lot of hunting for the right features. I have a custom made team issue Musto MPX racing smock with thick gucci Gore 3 layer stretchable fabric (I love it) that's very similar to a Kayak top.

I guess the issue with OP is that the general sailing public have not been willing to pay the super high prices for good & tough sailing gear with good long warranty's so companies stopped offering it to keep profits up even though it still seems expensive but it would probably cost around 50% more for a real warranty and everything they would need to do to that item in order to last the length of the warranty. I have no idea what the answer is but it totally sucks using gear that quickly fails and super short & bad warranty's are the worst especially when you think you paid a lot.

Voicing your opinion and letting the companies know publicly that they need to do much better and that they are failing does help, especially when many others (public) see it and respond as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When in trouble, a Tyvek under your leaky oilskin can save the day!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, trimfast said:

All of this. Musto now has the warranty on their site for 2 years only. Once those two years expire, they state, Gore picks up the warranty  with their "Guaranteed to Keep you Dry" policy. So even if it isn't the fabric after 2 years, and actual construction starts failing, there is nothing which will cover you.  No one, should expect to replace a $775 MPX Race Jacket every 2 years, that is insane. Musto previously, and other companies used to say for the life of the garment, While that ambiguity left it open for interpretation, most people think a item of these prices, should last considerably longer than 5 years, yet alone the 2 they offer now.  If it is a design defect that shows up later, it is not their problem any longer. That seems to be an issue in the OP. They certainly did change the zippers over the model years, maybe that doesn't happen unless their is a problem, but us customers will never know.

For my own sake, I decided to look into this further in case anything in the future arises. Below is what happens when you contact Gore. Which, even at first look, feels like you are getting the run around. Who has an initial receipt these days? Furthermore, if you look into the fine print on their website, they will only cover your costs to your purchase price via a credit to the manufacturer. While sure, that is 100% of what you paid and semi-reasonable, every year these products are going up in price. That $400  item you bought is now, $600. For a something that should not have failed, you still would be on the hook for $200. Even if Musto were to offer you cost on a new one, that still is a lot of money for people.  I don't see this changing, but it certainly would be nice to have a company stand by their product and customer base, without always looking at the bottom line, profit.

Thank you for contacting GORE-TEX Brand Services.  Please provide us with some additional information so that we can handle your case with the highest level of efficiency and accuracy. Before we take a look at your item, we will need to establish some initial information to determine the item’s overall condition. This is important because the item to be returned must have useful life left and not be excessively damaged or worn-out.

 Please answer the questions below to the best of your ability:

 Brand?

 Style or model name? 

 GORE-TEX technology, if known?  (This information can often be found on the sleeve or tag.)

 Size of the item? 

 Where did you purchase the item?

 What year did you purchase the product/s?

 What was the price you paid including tax?

 Please attach a copy of your initial receipt.

 How have you cared for the item? (Washing, care instructions, etc.)

 Is the item damaged? (tears, punctures, heavy abrasion etc.) If so please explain.

 Where is the specific location/s you are experiencing the leak/ delamination?

 Please describe the conditions or activity in which you experienced the leak or noticed the delamination.

 Please attach pictures of the item’s current condition (front, back, and inside), the area/s of leakage, any damaged areas, tread on the soles (for footwear), our GORE-TEX tag, and the manufacturer's tag.

 * PLEASE NOTE* Pictures may need to be sent in multiple emails if the attachment size exceeds 10MB. Attachments 10MB and smaller can be received without issue.

 Please provide your mailing address. If you prefer the option to receive a call related to you case, please provide your phone number, if not previously provided.

Earlier this year I returned a pair of Musto MPX trousers as they leaked.  Musto asked me to send them to Scottish mountain gear, which I did, and they did a report.  At that point Musto washed their hands of it as it was delaminating material.  Disappointing, and a change from previous experience, but they told me to take it up with Gore.  Armed with the report from SMG I had a few email exchanged, the biggest issue seemed to be why did I send it to them, rather than Gore tex, to which I answered "because Musto, whom I bought it from, told me to" several times. 

But in the end they came good, told me to buy a new pair up to a certain value (that was more than they currently cost...) and then sent me the money once I showed them the receipt.

In short, the process is more of a drag than in years past when I used to just put gear in the post to Musto with a short note saying "Dear Musto, these leak" and then wait for new gear to arrive.... But I still got my leaking gear replaced with brand new gear.   

I'd just like the gear not to leak after 3 years....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Leon Leonwood Bean built a great Main business by backing his product with a money back guarantee. He had to replace his first year of production as the glue was defective – but the reputation for standing behind his product laid the foundation for an enduring business.

Similarly Lands End which started out supplying sailing gear built their reputation on their satisfaction guaranteed return policy.

It seems Musto is headed in the opposite direction ... offering less and less backing for their product as @Flaming describes.

Maybe they can do that as they appear to have no/little competition in the top end sailing gear.

 @spectator describes well – there are some close or approximate substitutes for Musto in top end sailing gear – but not really full substitutes. Once you’ve shrunk the market by taking out those that will accept “good enough” substitutes you are left with an ultra small market...a microscopic market compared to “outdoor wear”

Even at a premium price, even from a dominant market position, it is hard to make much money from a tiny market with demanding requirements.

The history of businesses serving demanding niche markets is that they learn there is much more money to be made in selling t-shirts (Abercrombie and Fitch) or generic outdoor wear (Lands End and LL Bean) than in the demanding sporting goods market.

Musto is in vulnerable position. They either need a broad mass market offering to cover their fixed costs or they need to dominate and delight at a premium price point the small hard core offshore sailing market.

It is one thing to serve really well a small demanding market at a substantial premium. It is far riskier to charge a premium price to a demanding market and leave that market casting around for a better supplier...sooner or later one will emerge (Guy Cotten decides to step up or even more dangerous a large outdoor line decides that serving the offshore sailing market will create a boost to the brand image and can afford to do so a “loss leader”.

In the mean time it's a drag if you need really really good offshore sailing stuff. Maybe you should do as Leon Leonwood did and go into the business.

I feel your pain but those of us that sympathise with your travails are part of a diminishingly small slice of life on earth.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anyone tried the Mustang Survival wear?  It'd be difficult to get here in Oz, I imagine, so one would want to be pretty committed before doing so...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/2/2019 at 10:22 AM, Geff said:

Line 7 RULED!

You were generally wetter inside the jacket than it was wet outside.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, olaf hart said:

You were generally wetter inside the jacket than it was wet outside.

Kept the water on which ever side it started on.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/5/2019 at 5:01 PM, PITA said:

Has anyone tried the Mustang Survival wear?  It'd be difficult to get here in Oz, I imagine, so one would want to be pretty committed before doing so...

Hi @PITA - yes, I have. Mustang Survival is the one of the only brands that has access to the military versions of Gore, and the only real player in the marine space with that license that I know of. Their EP line is so freakn' good because they have access to that special material. I know they've been building US and Canadian coast guard and military drysuits for years so their stuff is legit. The rest of their line is super bomber.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this