Roleur

Why hasn't a J/111 raced to Hawaii yet?

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This still puzzles me.  Seems like it would be a fun boat for that course.  I know there were some rudder problems, but that seems to be sorted.  

Anyone?

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J111 lost a rudder in Buffalo late this summer.  

A long way from being sorted, I'm afraid.

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1 hour ago, NYBOZO1 said:

J111 lost a rudder in Buffalo late this summer.  

A long way from being sorted, I'm afraid.

By sorted, I meant the ones the broke have been replaced. I sure wouldn’t sail to Hawaii on the original rudder, but lots have a new rudder now. 

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22 hours ago, Roleur said:

By sorted, I meant the ones the broke have been replaced. I sure wouldn’t sail to Hawaii on the original rudder, but lots have a new rudder now. 

I know of one J/111 that is on it's 3rd or 4th rudder.  They finally gave up on trying to stay within the one design rules for the current rudder.  On the bright side if you ever want to know what works best for E-rudder set-ups ask these guys, no one has more experience in that department.

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6 hours ago, ZeeZee said:

What sort of problems did these owners have with the rudder?

rudder post failures

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So many rudder post failures that I've personally lost count. Django sank because of one, Blast in Nova Scotia had a similar issue. And those are just the ones I've heard of. 

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6 hours ago, jackolantern said:

So many rudder post failures that I've personally lost count. Django sank because of one, Blast in Nova Scotia had a similar issue. And those are just the ones I've heard of. 

I know of 2 other failures.  One rudder was replaced by a Larry Tuttle/Waterat rudder and has been sailed hard since without issues.  

From my original post, I was assuming these issues had been addressed and were no longer a concern.  Maybe that was an incorrect assumption.  

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I own hull #8 and have raced the shit out of it for 9 seasons, still have the original rudder.  Obviously YMMV but I don't think they're falling out of boats left and right.

Regarding sailing one to Hawaii, I would consider it if a concerted effort to make the boat as watertight as possible were undertaken.  111's are wet boats in general and if you're on your ear in a seaway for an extended length of time you'll definitely want to add in some additional capabilities over and above than the spec bilge pump to get water out of the boat.  

 

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3 hours ago, firestarter said:

I own hull #8 and have raced the shit out of it for 9 seasons, still have the original rudder.  Obviously YMMV but I don't think they're falling out of boats left and right.

Regarding sailing one to Hawaii, I would consider it if a concerted effort to make the boat as watertight as possible were undertaken.  111's are wet boats in general and if you're on your ear in a seaway for an extended length of time you'll definitely want to add in some additional capabilities over and above than the spec bilge pump to get water out of the boat.  

 

Have you ever taken out your 111 for a sustained amount of time in the same conditions that claimed the rig off your other ride?

So I went back out and did a little more research. Came up with some more to add to the Django and Blast failures. 

65 Red Roses, based on this article. https://sailish.com/index.php/tag/round-saltspring-race/

Eagles Dare, from here http://jaybirddog.blogspot.com/2015/07/bermuda-1-2-seamanship-award.html

Swiftness, at the Big Boat Series 2017. http://www.pressure-drop.us/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47542

Assuming Roleur is talking about Red Roses as one of his two, then the boat in Buffalo, plus the boat mentioned upthread thats on rudder 3/4.... are we up to a tally of 8 J/111s with major rudder failures? 

 

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The two I mentioned are on your list.  I believe all of the 5 boats named had their failures in 2017 or earlier.  Have there been any since 2017?  

What's the story on the 3-4 failures on one boat?  Seems anomalous.  

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16 hours ago, firestarter said:

Regarding sailing one to Hawaii, I would consider it if a concerted effort to make the boat as watertight as possible were undertaken.  111's are wet boats in general and if you're on your ear in a seaway for an extended length of time you'll definitely want to add in some additional capabilities over and above than the spec bilge pump to get water out of the boat.

We've done both Fastnet, Middle Sea Race and a number of other offshore races w #69, and think it works reasonably well. Wouldn't think twice about bringing it to Hawaii.

I got three pieces of advice from the guys who did Round Britan and Ireland in one (and encountered three storms along the way); "keep it dry, keep it dry, keep it dry":lol:

We've sealed the bow hatch (anchor locker), built a decent "race sprayhood" over the companionway and put a canvas "wall"  to separate the navstation from the companionway.  This keeps the boat dry, and the bilge pump might run for a few minutes at the time even in really rough weather.

Naturally, you can't beat the thrill of a J/125, but I'm pretty confident that we could give a J/121 a run for the money downwind in 18-22 knots of wind. And looking at the results from the last Transpac, you should have a shot at winning your class?

We have some logistics to get to the west coast, so we might have to wait to 2023 B)

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11 hours ago, Roleur said:

The two I mentioned are on your list.  I believe all of the 5 boats named had their failures in 2017 or earlier.  Have there been any since 2017?  

What's the story on the 3-4 failures on one boat?  Seems anomalous.  

Only 2 or 3 rudder failures, they are on the 3rd (or 4th) rudder now.  I don't remember the specifics of each rudder failure, I know it was more than one and I think it was 3 but not entirely sure I'm remembering that correctly, definitely at least 2 failures though.  It's not my boat or one I've been on, I just happen to know someone who has sailed on the boat.  Last failure was within the last year.  Sorry I can't remember more details and it doesn't feel right for me to say what boat or mention any names.

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You do realize that back in the old days rudders were not supposed to fail at all  

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Rudders are never supposed to fail....

...but have been failing since the first rudder replaced the steering oar as a means to steer the boat.

The real question here is has the problem in the early boats truly been sorted/solved.  It appears so, as all stories of failure seem to be on early boats...but I haven’t heard a definitive answer yet either...

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There were other less publicized issues with early hulls as well but they were sorted.    

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On 11/5/2019 at 1:20 AM, jackolantern said:

Have you ever taken out your 111 for a sustained amount of time in the same conditions that claimed the rig off your other ride?

So I went back out and did a little more research. Came up with some more to add to the Django and Blast failures. 

65 Red Roses, based on this article. https://sailish.com/index.php/tag/round-saltspring-race/

Eagles Dare, from here http://jaybirddog.blogspot.com/2015/07/bermuda-1-2-seamanship-award.html

Swiftness, at the Big Boat Series 2017. http://www.pressure-drop.us/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47542

Assuming Roleur is talking about Red Roses as one of his two, then the boat in Buffalo, plus the boat mentioned upthread thats on rudder 3/4.... are we up to a tally of 8 J/111s with major rudder failures? 

 

Did the A2N on Velocity in 2013, starting in a tropical storm and finishing in another storm that was nasty but not quite tropical and had the rig pumping for many hours going into the finish.  3 Mac races under our belts too, including the gear (and gut) buster in 2017.  We've been in 25+ plenty and for long periods of time and have a couple thousand miles in the boat without rudder issues.  Prospector lost its rig in reaching in 25ish and 8-10' rollers due to a sheared hanger pin, those kind of conditions aren't unfamiliar to us on the 111.  Like I said, YMMV - maybe we've gotten lucky but we've race the boat extensively for as long as 111's have been racing.

 

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Just to provide another data point, I crew on Freedom J111 #84.  Prior to coming to the states she was British Solider, a boat used for offshore training in the UK.  During that time she did thousands of miles off shore, IIRC the website site said she had over 10,000 miles.  I'm not sure if another J111 has had as many hard miles as her, she certainly looked that way when she got here.  All she's needed since coming to the Great Lakes is a paint job and new sails.

No rudder issues on Freedom besides replacing the steering cables, certainly no problems with the post.   We haven't had long sustained periods of rough weather or pressure on the rig and hull.. perhaps 8-10 hours at most.  All of this is not to say the boat wouldn't have similar rudder problems, before this thread came up I had heard about past boats with rudder problems.  Count Freedom as another lucky rudder post J/111, we just need to work on getting as lucky in the race results!

EDIT:  Of the list of rudder failures on the J/111 I'd be interested in knowing the breakdown of French built boats vs Rhode Island built boats.

 

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12 minutes ago, glexpress said:

Just to provide another data point, I crew on Freedom J111 #84.  Prior to coming to the states she was British Solider, a boat used for offshore training in the UK.  During that time she did thousands of miles off shore, IIRC the website site said she had over 10,000 miles.  I'm not sure if another J111 has had as many hard miles as her, she certainly looked that way when she got here.  All she's needed since coming to the Great Lakes is a paint job and new sails.

I got British Solider's "RBIR Lessons Learnt" and that was a proper shakedown, and I was surprised they didn't break more things...

Blur now got >15.000 nm on her log. Most of them with the pedal to the metal.

Or as my insurance company said when the mast track came off last year; "we've seen your videos" :lol:

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15 hours ago, Blur said:

I got British Solider's "RBIR Lessons Learnt" and that was a proper shakedown, and I was surprised they didn't break more things...

Blur now got >15.000 nm on her log. Most of them with the pedal to the metal.

Or as my insurance company said when the mast track came off last year; "we've seen your videos" :lol:

You need to find an insurance provider who doesn't sail!  :ph34r:

First because of this thread and now your post I feel compelled to inspect a rudder post, mast track and rig fittings in the spring!

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2 J/111’s (French built) that have done 5+ full seasons in Cape Town where it’s regularly blowing 25+ and races don’t get called of often at all. The boats have not suffered any major issues as far as I know. One did a delivery from Cape Town to Durban last year, 832 nm ,where she is now based. 

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I friend of mine did this years transpac on a J121 (there are probably others in the forums who raced the same boat) and apparently there was a scary moment when the plastic gaiter around the rudder stuck was bulging with water and should anything have happened to that gaiter the boat would likely have gone down

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On 11/18/2019 at 1:47 AM, JL92S said:

I friend of mine did this years transpac on a J121 (there are probably others in the forums who raced the same boat) and apparently there was a scary moment when the plastic gaiter around the rudder stuck was bulging with water and should anything have happened to that gaiter the boat would likely have gone down  leaked a bit until they backed off and repaired it.

Fixed it for you.

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would seem like one could take an old sail and make a kevlar "gaitor" that laced around the plastic gaiter to reinforce it/keep it from bulging???

 

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6 hours ago, Trevor B said:

Fixed it for you.

*fixed it for them

their words and not mine! Apparently there’s a collar around the stock that sits against the bearing and is epoxied in place(??) this collar had cracked and shifted causing the rudder to drop and was only being supported from the top by the steering gear, as a result there was water pissing in and the rudder hanging looser and lower than it otherwise would have been. This was just feedback I got from the race!

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