Foolish

Better broaching for singlehanders

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After singlehanded broaching lots and lots and lots of times, I’ve learned a few lessons that I thought I’d pass along. You can download my paper here:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7718709_68878570_6221527

And don’t forget the paper I wrote on the invaluable gybing without shifting the pole here:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7718709_68878570_6206596

And my older paper on meal planning for improved performance in long distance singlehanded voyages here:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7718709_68878570_6823572

Have fun!

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Thanks very much Foolish,

I like your writing style, it's enjoyable, and I appreciate the efforts.

Cheers,

SB

 

 

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Foolish - Awesome, an "ah ha" moment soon as a read it!  Very much appreciated, been doing the opposite and  burning up a lot of amps as the AP fights to bring the bow back down.   This will give me a lot more confidence to push the boat on a run with the full chute.   Gotta try the gybing without shifting the pole.

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top tip when gybing a symmetric spinnaker is to keep the sail under the mast head - ie heel the boat to the side you want the sail to fill on. 
if you want teh sail to set to Starboard heel the boat to starboard as the sail 'hangs' off the mast... sounds too simple to be true but if boat/mast is heeling to the wrong side it gets messy. use  weight of crew/stacked sails/ water ballast to heel the boat ....makes it all sooo much easier

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The articles were very informative, well organized and easy to read.  That said, I had to buy your book “Singlehanded Sailing”.  Another exceptional reference.  Thank you for sharing all your insights and hard earned knowledge and making it fun to read and easy to understand.  

Thank you, Terry, Olson 29

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Great advice - I have just read it again, and I certainly agree you can't be afraid of a broach! Since I went to assymetric only I have found I broach less (if at all) and I have a tack line back to the cockpit that I can fire (with a martin breaker) to let the tack off completely - boat pops up, aim downwind with autopilot and pull kite back in. Otherwise as you say the spinnaker will keep you pinned down, even with vang off and mainsheet off. Interestingly with a big fat head main and big assys, in anything over 15 knots I can get down (or have to get down) to 170 - 180, in full control. I could never trust my autopilot enough when using symmetric spinnaker.

Thanks again for your articles and book - they have both given me ideas and also confirmed many things I have learnt myself over the last 20 years.

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On 5/13/2020 at 8:18 PM, C4ISR said:

The articles were very informative, well organized and easy to read.

 

On 5/13/2020 at 9:44 PM, mccroc said:

Great advice - I have just read it again, and I certainly agree you can't be afraid of a broach!

Thanks very much for the kind comments guys.  I hope you get a chance to watch the gybing video I just posted in another thread:

 

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Hey Foolish, You ever rig your tether to change helm or sheet to stop the boat if you go swimming?  

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20 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Hey Foolish, You ever rig your tether to change helm or sheet to stop the boat if you go swimming?  

I've got a remote control for my Pelagic autopilot. So if I'm dragging along side on my tether, I can point the boat into the wind with just a few clicks.

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Have you ever thought about arranging the jacklines in the center of the boat, at least forward of the cockpit, to lessen the chance of going over and being dragged along the side?

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3 hours ago, Switchtack said:

Have you ever thought about arranging the jacklines in the center of the boat, at least forward of the cockpit, to lessen the chance of going over and being dragged along the side?

I strongly believe that you must NOT unclip at any point when going forward, so having any positioning of the jacklines that I must unclip from to get to the bow is a bad idea.  The problem is that sometimes, just when you think it will be safe and why bother clipping on again when the water is smooth, you will not re-clip onto the bow jackline.  That's the one time when you'll go over the side.   Remember, you won't fall off in a bad storm when you are being extra careful.  You will fall off on a nice sunny day when you just are not being particularly careful.  That's what jacklines are for!

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On 5/20/2020 at 1:15 PM, Foolish said:

I strongly believe that you must NOT unclip at any point when going forward, so having any positioning of the jacklines that I must unclip from to get to the bow is a bad idea.  The problem is that sometimes, just when you think it will be safe and why bother clipping on again when the water is smooth, you will not re-clip onto the bow jackline.  That's the one time when you'll go over the side.   Remember, you won't fall off in a bad storm when you are being extra careful.  You will fall off on a nice sunny day when you just are not being particularly careful.  That's what jacklines are for!

With a short/long tether you shouldn't ever have to be unclipped. I run mine from my my babystay pad-eye to my cabin top cleats on both sides. No need to unclip to get to the bow but I do have to go inside of the shrouds which took some getting used to. I can get everywhere except the furler without using the long tether which prevents me from being able to go over the lifelines. If I need to get to the furler I have to use the long tether but can short tether myself at the bow when I get there. One benefit of the jacklines being inside of the shrouds is if I do fall off going to the bow the tether would be effectively shortened and keep me out of the water unless the top lifeline broke.

Haven't created a decent spot to tether myself within the cockpit. I've been tying off to the binnacle out of habit but I'm not 100% sure it wouldn't rip off if I had a big tumble. I figure a  folding pad-eye in front of the binnacle and one right under the wheel would allow me and crew to tether on within the cockpit.

No remote for my autopilot so I'd be pretty fucked if I did go over. I keep my handheld VHF w/GPS fixed to my PFD and the tether has a snapshackle I could release if I was drowning. Not a ton of hope for survival if I was in the middle of the strait but it's better than hopes and prayers.

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On 5/20/2020 at 4:41 PM, Foolish said:

I've got a remote control for my Pelagic autopilot. So if I'm dragging along side on my tether, I can point the boat into the wind with just a few clicks.

I have heard this argument a number of times but I must say I'm skeptical of how possible it is in practice.

I don't know the Pelagic pilot but my Raymarine remote (S100) is very fussy about being close to the transmitter when pairing and I suspect would not be able to start up and pair from in the water (or close to it).

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9 hours ago, Snowden said:

I have heard this argument a number of times but I must say I'm skeptical of how possible it is in practice.

I don't know the Pelagic pilot but my Raymarine remote (S100) is very fussy about being close to the transmitter when pairing and I suspect would not be able to start up and pair from in the water (or close to it).

Can't speak for other systems Snow, but I can attest to NKE being approx 50 mtrs. Haven't actually thought about using the directional buttons if I went overboard, as its primary function is to just put the boat in irons if your further away than that. But it does makes sense if your still attached hanging off a tether.

   

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11 hours ago, climenuts said:

Haven't created a decent spot to tether myself within the cockpit. I've been tying off to the binnacle out of habit but I'm not 100% sure it wouldn't rip off if I had a big tumble. I figure a  folding pad-eye in front of the binnacle and one right under the wheel would allow me and crew to tether on within the cockpit.

I recently did a 2 x 400 mile trip on a 13 metre tiller-steered yacht. We had 25 - 30 on the beam, and got knocked a couple of times. I realised that a single tether was not going to stop me going to the leeward side should we get knocked fully over, so i added a second shorter tether to the windward rail. Glad i did - at around 3 in the morning we got knocked completely flat - had i not had the two tethers i would have been in the water to leeward - as it was I was under water for longer than I expected! I was alone on deck.

On my own boat I have three pad eyes in the cockpit for clipping on. I have been amazed how much I get thrown around by the tiller in a big sea.

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I'm really happy that there are lots of good ideas for tethers.  I've always said that if I get sent over the lifelines, I'd much rather be dragging beside the boat and fighting for my life than watching the boat sail away and waiting to die for 2 hours in the cold water, all the while thinking what an idiot I'd been.

22 hours ago, Snowden said:

I don't know the Pelagic pilot but my Raymarine remote (S100) is very fussy about being close to the transmitter when pairing and I suspect would not be able to start up and pair from in the water (or close to it)

My Pelagic remote is always connected with the autopilot, and I know that I can work it from the bow of the boat. So I don't think there would be any problem with working it from alongside.  (It would be worth a test at the dock though.)  I use the buttons on the remote much more often than I use the buttons on the auto itself. 

23 hours ago, climenuts said:

With a short/long tether you shouldn't ever have to be unclipped.

A key reason why I use this length of tether is that it allows me to tack or gybe and move from side to side without having to unclip.  I'm often in quick tack situations and its nice to move side to side without worrying about the tether. 

Have fun!

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My pelagic remote is a garage door opener, not sure how waterproof it is.

I have a similar setup with a madman marine remote control on a ray autopilot, found some clear name tag covers on a neck leash that seal well, so I leave the remote in one of these around my neck.

they are the ones they give out at conferences, also come in packs of a dozen at the stationary store..

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18 hours ago, olaf hart said:

My pelagic remote is a garage door opener, not sure how waterproof it is.

I have used Madman remotes in the past, both the earlier version and the "waterproof" version. I've found that there is no such thing as a waterproof remote, no matter what anyone says.  Heck, I'm sailing in pouring rain with the remote clipped to my harness.   So now I have my Pelagic remote safely enclosed in a soft cellphone pouch.   Works much better.   Something like this:

 

Cell Phone Pouch.jpg

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On 5/26/2020 at 12:22 AM, shaggybaxter said:

Can't speak for other systems Snow, but I can attest to NKE being approx 50 mtrs. Haven't actually thought about using the directional buttons if I went overboard, as its primary function is to just put the boat in irons if your further away than that. But it does makes sense if your still attached hanging off a tether.

   

Have you ever tried out the MOB function on the NKE gear @shaggybaxter? A 40' boat doing 9kts into wind+current carrying a lot of way must get pretty far away from the poor solo sod gone over the side before coming to a stop - and then how long can the pilot hold the boat in irons with no steerage? Suppose you might get lucky and have it fall off on the opposite tack, auto-heave-to? Of course, all this seems a lot better than watching a boat continuing on towards the horizon.

Regardless, the NKE gear, and especially their pilot really seems to be the dogs bollocks.

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1 hour ago, cianclarke said:

Have you ever tried out the MOB function on the NKE gear @shaggybaxter? A 40' boat doing 9kts into wind+current carrying a lot of way must get pretty far away from the poor solo sod gone over the side before coming to a stop - and then how long can the pilot hold the boat in irons with no steerage? Suppose you might get lucky and have it fall off on the opposite tack, auto-heave-to? Of course, all this seems a lot better than watching a boat continuing on towards the horizon.

 Regardless, the NKE gear, and especially their pilot really seems to be the dogs bollocks.

G'day Cian,

Aside from testing at the dock, I've had some inadvertent exposure to it! I went through a period where you'd be happily on the helm merrily punting along when suddenly the boat would snap to port or starboard which caused a few moments of consternation! It's not a gentle turn either, it turns hard. It turned out to be the wrist pendant battery was running low which was causing the autopilot to trigger, so my fault, not the kit :blink:.

Reading the manual at the time, there are two modes, with no wind direction input the helm is put hard over into a  continuous circle and with wind direction the helm puts her into irons. I remember though finding an under engine or sail setting somewhere in the config which I thought had a bearing on which mode, so I dunno if I had an old manual or just misconstrued it. I haven't looked into it since, this thread has reminded me to go back and revisit it. 

Regards how long it will hold it, that's a good question. The way I see it there are three possible outcomes;

  • The boat has just enough way on so the helm keeps moving the rudder to hold it head to wind. All good, but unlikely. 
  • The boat tacks after going into irons, the helm goes hard over to compensate. The autopilot will go into alarm and lock the rudder if it sits against the stops for too long, so without touching any sails the boat is now in in heave to mode as you mention. The jib is backed, the main is normal and the rudder is hard against the stops driving the boat to windward. All good.
  • The boat doesn't tack after going into irons and just falls away. The helm will go to the stops , alarm and lock driving the boat to windward with a normal sail plan, so it will luff again. All good.   

What is not good, is in the latter example above, what happens if it goes into irons again and this time it tacks, but now with a locked helm? I need to work that one out.  

Doing the numbers once, to travel 50m at 10 knots takes about 5 seconds, so by the time you head has broken the surface you should see the boat luffing. But to swim even 50m in gear without boots would be a good minute plus, so Foolish'  idea whilst being dragged by your tether of punching the controls on your wrist doesn't sound like a bad option by comparison.  You can trigger the MOB mode from the pendant too, so its not like you have to think which directional button  to push as your getting drowned being skull dragged along beside your boat. 

Regards the pendant being waterproof, I would bet my left nut on it. I've swum with it before, there is no visible opening and you can't even open the bastard thing to replace the battery yourself, you have to send it to an NKE dealer for that.

I'll have another look at the config options and report back, it's something I should remember and know.

Cheers.                 

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Two tethers...a long one and a short one. In the SF Bay or if it's benign, I use the long one. If it's snotty outside the Gate, I use both.  My boat doesn't have handholds along the side of the cabin top.  I'm thinking about installing some.

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On 5/28/2020 at 10:13 AM, shaggybaxter said:

G'day Cian,

Aside from testing at the dock, I've had some inadvertent exposure to it! I went through a period where you'd be happily on the helm merrily punting along when suddenly the boat would snap to port or starboard which caused a few moments of consternation! It's not a gentle turn either, it turns hard. It turned out to be the wrist pendant battery was running low which was causing the autopilot to trigger, so my fault, not the kit :blink:.

Reading the manual at the time, there are two modes, with no wind direction input the helm is put hard over into a  continuous circle and with wind direction the helm puts her into irons. I remember though finding an under engine or sail setting somewhere in the config which I thought had a bearing on which mode, so I dunno if I had an old manual or just misconstrued it. I haven't looked into it since, this thread has reminded me to go back and revisit it. 

Regards how long it will hold it, that's a good question. The way I see it there are three possible outcomes;

  • The boat has just enough way on so the helm keeps moving the rudder to hold it head to wind. All good, but unlikely. 
  • The boat tacks after going into irons, the helm goes hard over to compensate. The autopilot will go into alarm and lock the rudder if it sits against the stops for too long, so without touching any sails the boat is now in in heave to mode as you mention. The jib is backed, the main is normal and the rudder is hard against the stops driving the boat to windward. All good.
  • The boat doesn't tack after going into irons and just falls away. The helm will go to the stops , alarm and lock driving the boat to windward with a normal sail plan, so it will luff again. All good.   

What is not good, is in the latter example above, what happens if it goes into irons again and this time it tacks, but now with a locked helm? I need to work that one out.  

Doing the numbers once, to travel 50m at 10 knots takes about 5 seconds, so by the time you head has broken the surface you should see the boat luffing. But to swim even 50m in gear without boots would be a good minute plus, so Foolish'  idea whilst being dragged by your tether of punching the controls on your wrist doesn't sound like a bad option by comparison.  You can trigger the MOB mode from the pendant too, so its not like you have to think which directional button  to push as your getting drowned being skull dragged along beside your boat. 

Regards the pendant being waterproof, I would bet my left nut on it. I've swum with it before, there is no visible opening and you can't even open the bastard thing to replace the battery yourself, you have to send it to an NKE dealer for that.

I'll have another look at the config options and report back, it's something I should remember and know.

Cheers.                 

Cheers for the reply - reinforces that I'd love an NKE system on a boat some day. 
Of course, all this seems like no replacement for stay on the fackin' boat.. 

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On 11/2/2019 at 5:00 PM, Foolish said:

After singlehanded broaching lots and lots and lots of times, I’ve learned a few lessons that I thought I’d pass along. You can download my paper here:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7718709_68878570_6221527

And don’t forget the paper I wrote on the invaluable gybing without shifting the pole here:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7718709_68878570_6206596

And my older paper on meal planning for improved performance in long distance singlehanded voyages here:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7718709_68878570_6823572

Have fun!

Thank Foolish,

 

Just ordered your book - looking forward to reading it.

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On 11/2/2019 at 1:00 PM, Foolish said:

After singlehanded broaching lots and lots and lots of times, I’ve learned a few lessons that I thought I’d pass along. You can download my paper here:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7718709_68878570_6221527

And don’t forget the paper I wrote on the invaluable gybing without shifting the pole here:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7718709_68878570_6206596
oat was masthead and di
And my older paper on meal planning for improved performance in long distance singlehanded voyages here:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7718709_68878570_6823572

Have fun!

Fully agree with you, don't blow the guy or halyard in a round-up.  Chinese gibes are real killers, so I've learned that fractional rig boats don't behave this way.

Our first keel boat was masthead and would round down.  2nd boat (Wiley 34) fractional rig in over 20 years racing NEVER rounded down.  When I first sailed the boat, we rigged a preventer to the boom to prevent an accedintal gybe.  First heavy air round-up boom dragged in the eater and preventer gear wend BANG.  Never rigged it again !!

W34 grsc99.jpg

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On 11/2/2019 at 5:00 PM, Foolish said:

After singlehanded broaching lots and lots and lots of times, I’ve learned a few lessons that I thought I’d pass along. You can download my paper here:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7718709_68878570_6221527

And don’t forget the paper I wrote on the invaluable gybing without shifting the pole here:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7718709_68878570_6206596

And my older paper on meal planning for improved performance in long distance singlehanded voyages here:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7718709_68878570_6823572

Have fun!

Hi Foolish,

Just read your paper on meal planning, lots of things almost right about it and quite a lot not.  For a detailed understanding of the roles of insulin and glucose you may be interested in this a book by Dr Ian Gallen; Type 1 Diabetes: Clinical Management of the Athlete.  It's a great starter for 10 and hits on a number of the issues you've collated in your paper.

For more I would then suggest a study of the data on keto/fasting and their impacts.

Adaption to a ketogenic primary fuelling approach to endurance activity is very well documented.

For the uninitiated, all this means is; stop eating carbs, only eat protein/fats and your body will transition to burning ketones in preference to glucose, preserving glucose stores in the liver for 'explosive' need and keeping a regular and consistent energy supply to the brain which will then not be competing with insulin mediated glucose need elsewhere.

Insulin causes, and initiates, multiple cascading regulatory and counter-regulatory responses in the body. Minimising insulin expression to glucagon control has whole body benefits.

 

 

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1 hour ago, BeerMonkey said:

Just read your paper on meal planning, lots of things almost right about it and quite a lot not. 

My challenge with this paper was to come up with meal planning that was beneficial AND realistic.  My son is a real keto diet fan and we had several discussions about it while I was considering the topic.  So, I had to think that sailors are going to want to eat carbs, especially on long voyages like across the Pacific or around the world.    So if they want carbs, at least I can get them to consider complex carbs.  I just did not think that the average sailor would want to switch over to a keto diet; I sure know that I wouldn't do it. 

I spoke to a number of sports nutrition experts about this topic while I was writing it.  I just could not get their minds to switch away from ultra-marathon running.  As I say over and over again in the study, the problem is fatigue and lethargy, not simply physical exhaustion (although that is a part of it.)  It was after a lot of searching I came up with the somewhat better comparison of long distance dog sled racing.  I believe that mine is the first ever paper on this particular problem.   I have since re-written the paper for long distance truck drivers, and it has been published in trucker magazines. 

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3 hours ago, BeerMonkey said:

For the uninitiated, all this means is; stop eating carbs, only eat protein/fats and your body will transition to burning ketones in preference to glucose, preserving glucose stores in the liver for 'explosive' need and keeping a regular and consistent energy supply to the brain which will then not be competing with insulin mediated glucose need elsewhere.

Insulin causes, and initiates, multiple cascading regulatory and counter-regulatory responses in the body. Minimising insulin expression to glucagon control has whole body benefits.

 

Are we really going to do the whole keto vs normal diet thing here? I get enough of this on fitness forums.

Adapting to a ketogenic diet means giving up a lot of things that most people don't want to, IIRC 50g a day maximum of carbs for most people? The beer I'm drinking now covers half that allowance, a good size banana will use up almost the full lot.
And adapting to a Ketogenic diet on short notice for a race is hardly practical either.

When ketogenic endurance athletes start beating the ones that eat high carb at the absolute top echelons (Olympics etc) then Its maybe worth taking notice, but for most people just eating a healthier and more balanced diet will make huge improvements to energy levels throughout the day.

And in the actual study of world class athletes they did, high carb held the advantage.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7272074/

Of course if low carb makes it easier to stick to a diet then go for it, but it seems to be banded about as some universal panacea.

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Nothing has improved my energy level throughout the day like going to 3 cups of coffee.

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7 hours ago, Teener said:

Nothing has improved my energy level throughout the day like going to 3 cups of coffee.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-002-1217-9

 

Effects of caffeine, sleep loss, and stress on cognitive performance and mood during U.S. Navy SEAL training

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This is a good paper, but for the long distance Solo sailing here on the Great Lakes there is a big difference is the environment as compared to a Transpac. Its cold up here! In the seven Solo Macs I've done, the temps range between the low 40's to upper 50's most, if not all, the time.

 

Also, has anyone found any studies specifically addressing nutrition and long term polyphasic sleep cycles?

 

I would think an intake of fats might actually be something one needs to increase somewhat...

 

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8 minutes ago, sidmon said:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-002-1217-9

 

Effects of caffeine, sleep loss, and stress on cognitive performance and mood during U.S. Navy SEAL training 

That link now leads to a paywall for the full report...

Try this one:

http://jtoomim.org/brain-training/Effects of caffeine, sleep loss, and stress on cognitive performance and mood during US Navy SEAL training.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, MiddayGun said:

Are we really going to do the whole keto vs normal diet thing here? I get enough of this on fitness forums.

Adapting to a ketogenic diet means giving up a lot of things that most people don't want to, IIRC 50g a day maximum of carbs for most people? The beer I'm drinking now covers half that allowance, a good size banana will use up almost the full lot.
And adapting to a Ketogenic diet on short notice for a race is hardly practical either.

When ketogenic endurance athletes start beating the ones that eat high carb at the absolute top echelons (Olympics etc) then Its maybe worth taking notice, but for most people just eating a healthier and more balanced diet will make huge improvements to energy levels throughout the day.

And in the actual study of world class athletes they did, high carb held the advantage.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7272074/

Of course if low carb makes it easier to stick to a diet then go for it, but it seems to be banded about as some universal panacea.

Nope - not interested.  There is no debate.  The question being answered was about fatigue, lethargy and ability to focus in what is, to use your own analogy, an endurance event/lifestyle as opposed to a sprint.

FYI - adapting to keto take 48hrs.  Being 'competitive' takes rather longer and will be a function of your own attitude/skill.  Ketogenic endurance athletes are beating hight-carb ones - perhaps you've read the work of Prof. Tim Noakes?

The paper you cite - really?  Have you actually read it?

As to what people are or aren't 'willing' to give up - well, if its a competition I guess that comes down to how much you want to win, if it's life, then hey - whatever floats your boat. An informed choice is the best choice.  Rubbishing some of the choices isn't particularly helpful or informative.

If you are genuinely interested in why keto is of intertest you could also study the work of Dr. Joseph Kraft, the 'father' of the insulin assey https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5708305/ (should get you strated).

 

His models are being born out in all studies so far, which should worry a lot of people.

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59 minutes ago, BeerMonkey said:

Nope - not interested.  There is no debate.  The question being answered was about fatigue, lethargy and ability to focus in what is, to use your own analogy, an endurance event/lifestyle as opposed to a sprint.

If there is no debate  then maybe we should end it here.
The study is referring to endurance. Not to sprinting.

1 hour ago, BeerMonkey said:

 

FYI - adapting to keto take 48hrs.  Being 'competitive' takes rather longer and will be a function of your own attitude/skill.  Ketogenic endurance athletes are beating hight-carb ones - perhaps you've read the work of Prof. Tim Noakes?

 

Some Keto diet athletes might be beating high carb ones, but is it the diet? Or are they just better atheletes. Usain Bolt famously ate 100 chicken nuggets a day at the Beijing Olympics, but I doubt many people will try and point at that as his reason for success. He's was just a better athlete. As I said if the Keto diet works for you and others than by all means follow it, but its not a necessity for elite level performance.
AFAIK from following the races, no one in the Vendee / Volvo Ocean & Mini Transat world is eating low carb high fat, and they're basically the elite of solo sailing, if the advantages were so marked then I'm sure they would take advantage.

And 48 hours? I  would like to see a study on that, I've been following low carb / primal / paleo / keto for years, I even followed one for around 6 months, it took much longer than 48 hours for me to get adapted to it. And the vast amount of people I've read diaries of seem to need at least 2 weeks, the process might start after 2 days. I've not seen a study on this, so if you have a link to one that would be an interesting read.

1 hour ago, BeerMonkey said:

As to what people are or aren't 'willing' to give up - well, if its a competition I guess that comes down to how much you want to win, if it's life, then hey - whatever floats your boat. An informed choice is the best choice.  Rubbishing some of the choices isn't particularly helpful or informative.

This is a website of mostly beer can racers and cruisers, the top level guys that are on here won't be taking their dietary advice from this topic. (Which is incidentally about broaching so no idea how we ended up on this drift)
Disagreeing with you isn't rubbishing a choice.

1 hour ago, BeerMonkey said:

Being 'competitive' takes rather longer and will be a function of your own attitude/skill.

And practice. Lots of practice. In fact for our sport Diet comes last of all. (in this sport)

1 hour ago, BeerMonkey said:

The question being answered was about fatigue, lethargy and ability to focus

All 3 of which are far more likely to be caused sleep deprivation. Something I've not heard Keto adherents claim it can solve. (yet)

Honestly though, comparing a controlled Keto diet to what most people eat then your going to come up with a favorable conclusion, its not exactly a fair comparison of a diet with carbs and one without. Just switching to a healthy a diet & with regular exercise will make a huge difference to most people, it doesn't need to be Keto. Fatigue & lethargy aren't a foregone conclusion when following a high(er) carb diet, if someone fuels their race on chocolate and cereal then yeah they will most likely crash.

Sorry if I'm coming across as an asshole here, but it seems that every time I hear Keto described as the 'solution' by the latest low carb evangelical the author of whatever piece it is likes to talk about how before Keto  they 'crashed' after every meal, had 'No energy all the time', walked through life with a 'brain fog' etc. And how switching to Keto fixed it all.
And if it did good for them, but they seem to assume the rest of us are feeling the same way, which just isn't true.

1 hour ago, BeerMonkey said:

His models are being born out in all studies so far, which should worry a lot of people.

OK but we're talking sport / event specific here. The diet is often different from what is optimal day to day.

I guess you follow a Keto diet?

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1 hour ago, BeerMonkey said:

If you are genuinely interested in why keto is of intertest you could also study the work of Dr. Joseph Kraft, the 'father' of the insulin assey https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5708305/ (should get you strated).

1975 research on a few people, with notes that show it is a circle of a few researchers in the old days... Never a good sign. Old theories are often used for a new myth. Mix them up with new numbers but keep it based on results of the old research... a flawed conclusion is easy to make. Some times old research can be good but in this case there is non new research showing it works, strong evidence for diabetic persons is all. Over a few months...With side effects on cholesterol that you do not want. Some people are making millions... till the next myth comes. Probably based on 1980's research :)

Noakes, the guy that said to a mother of a baby she should put him on Keto, without any research done on the effects on babies. Better call him a tunnel vision person.
Leenstra’s tweet said: “@ProfTimNoakes @SalCreed is LCHF eating ok for breastfeeding mums? Worried about all the dairy+cauliflower = wind for babies??”
Noakes replied: “Baby doesn’t eat the dairy and cauliflower. Just very healthy high-fat breast milk. Key is to ween [sic] baby onto LCHF.”
Dangerous as shit to advice something to a growing baby without research....

And yes, for years on very strict food intake, more then 90% of a supermarket is for me off limits. You get used to that and find new foods to like.

My personal food rules for offshore racing;
! damn easy to prepare
!! damn full off energy that last
!!! damn easy to dispose off but controllable in time of disposal. No time to sit on the loo with a book, or having diarrhea. Go for Bristol nr 4.

One problem sailors often experience is less intake of water, and combined with Keto...

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3 hours ago, MiddayGun said:

If there is no debate  then maybe we should end it here.
The study is referring to endurance. Not to sprinting.

Some Keto diet athletes might be beating high carb ones, but is it the diet? Or are they just better atheletes. Usain Bolt famously ate 100 chicken nuggets a day at the Beijing Olympics, but I doubt many people will try and point at that as his reason for success. He's was just a better athlete. As I said if the Keto diet works for you and others than by all means follow it, but its not a necessity for elite level performance.
AFAIK from following the races, no one in the Vendee / Volvo Ocean & Mini Transat world is eating low carb high fat, and they're basically the elite of solo sailing, if the advantages were so marked then I'm sure they would take advantage.

And 48 hours? I  would like to see a study on that, I've been following low carb / primal / paleo / keto for years, I even followed one for around 6 months, it took much longer than 48 hours for me to get adapted to it. And the vast amount of people I've read diaries of seem to need at least 2 weeks, the process might start after 2 days. I've not seen a study on this, so if you have a link to one that would be an interesting read.

This is a website of mostly beer can racers and cruisers, the top level guys that are on here won't be taking their dietary advice from this topic. (Which is incidentally about broaching so no idea how we ended up on this drift)
Disagreeing with you isn't rubbishing a choice.

And practice. Lots of practice. In fact for our sport Diet comes last of all. (in this sport)

All 3 of which are far more likely to be caused sleep deprivation. Something I've not heard Keto adherents claim it can solve. (yet)

Honestly though, comparing a controlled Keto diet to what most people eat then your going to come up with a favorable conclusion, its not exactly a fair comparison of a diet with carbs and one without. Just switching to a healthy a diet & with regular exercise will make a huge difference to most people, it doesn't need to be Keto. Fatigue & lethargy aren't a foregone conclusion when following a high(er) carb diet, if someone fuels their race on chocolate and cereal then yeah they will most likely crash.

Sorry if I'm coming across as an asshole here, but it seems that every time I hear Keto described as the 'solution' by the latest low carb evangelical the author of whatever piece it is likes to talk about how before Keto  they 'crashed' after every meal, had 'No energy all the time', walked through life with a 'brain fog' etc. And how switching to Keto fixed it all.
And if it did good for them, but they seem to assume the rest of us are feeling the same way, which just isn't true.

OK but we're talking sport / event specific here. The diet is often different from what is optimal day to day.

I guess you follow a Keto diet?

Actually, no, I don't subscribe to keto.  However, I am well versed in the science of it. 

Like I said, wasn't attempting to start a debate on the merits/otherwise of keto v anything else.  The danger is in ascribing values to 'diets' that are unsupportable, given the myriad of other factors that impact on 'performance'.

Energy availability to the body and cerebral function are well understood, if not well synthesised.  Very few and far between are those who have made a study of more than one discipline.  Endocrinologists don't study liver function, diet, digestion or nutrition, for example and 'sports nutritionists' don't appear to study anything. Dieticians are mostly working off an ideology invented in the 1970s by the sugar industry and everyone and their dog has a 'miracle cure' diet book to sell.

FYI, the adaption to keto in 48hrs is predicated on a nil by mouth except water fast.  I would agree that otherwise, simply reducing CHO to sub c50g/day can be a drawn out exercise.

Lots of stuff out there by reputable folk (Dr Jason Fung for instance) on fasting, keto adaption etc.

Agree, by the way, on the evangelical keto bollocks.

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4 hours ago, BeerMonkey said:

reputable folk  like Dr Jason Fung

One of the guys making money of it.
Try too find on his website the clinical trail results or scientific results. Very hard. He mentions 50 research papers that prove Keto...He mentions only one research that gives one Strong Evidence (Fung's words), and if you read that trail, strong evidence is way off.
The British Journal of Nutrition 2016: Effects of low-carbohydrate diets v. low-fat diets on body weight and cardiovascular risk factors: a meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials [strong evidence]

I hate scammers like this.

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On 7/31/2020 at 2:21 PM, Teener said:

Nothing has improved my energy level throughout the day like going to 3 cups of coffee. 

Yes.  When I did my study I quoted a paper about testing on Australian truck drivers.  If I recall, they found a 50% reduction in accidents among drivers who drank coffee/tea.  I would look at truck driving as very similar to long distance singlehanding, with long periods of nothing going on followed by sudden required changes. So absolutely caffeine is recommended.  The Navy paper appears to recognize this. 

Regarding the total diet; yes, a good, rounded healthy diet is recommended.  The only changes that I suggest are moving away from simple carbs into complex carbs. So whole grain rice rather than white rice (Uncle Bens even makes an instant whole grain rice), Whole grain breads rather than white breads, NO Red Bull or other caffeine drinks because they are loaded with sugar.  Read the paper for the entire list of recommendations.

One thing not mentioned in this thread is heat.  Heat is a killer on fatigue/lethargy and heat is a real problem on the Transpac. I highly recommend coming up with solutions.

 

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