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Brexit WTF, WTF

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The tragedy is that the UK does have systemic advantages. Some of the best scientists. Superb research infrastructure left over from EMA days. Every edge imaginable. So the real question is not if they have skipped a vital 3rd trial scrutiny to approve a vaccine but how did they end up with the worst health and economic outcomes? Well, because they have people like BJ and Gove, and their minions like Williamson, Rees Mogg, Sunak at the helm. Take it to the chin is now take a vaccine for 400.000 people and hope the rest will come after Jan 1.
Or Oxford to the rescue.
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1 hour ago, LeoV said:
The tragedy is that the UK does have systemic advantages. Some of the best scientists. Superb research infrastructure left over from EMA days. Every edge imaginable. So the real question is not if they have skipped a vital 3rd trial scrutiny to approve a vaccine but how did they end up with the worst health and economic outcomes? Well, because they have people like BJ and Gove, and their minions like Williamson, Rees Mogg, Sunak at the helm. Take it to the chin is now take a vaccine for 400.000 people and hope the rest will come after Jan 1.
Or Oxford to the rescue.

The tradgedy is not to blame those at the top, but the unaccountable mess the NHS is in, its the ultimate untouchible organisation to a politician wanting to keep their job.

All we hear is the NHS needs more money and more resources yet my wife has literally been into the local hospital this morning for a follow up to an operation she had last year. The department she went to is fully staffed and not a person other than her in there. The surgeon and his sidekick almost over eager to talk and see her such is the lack of patients. Twelve months ago it was like a busy emergency ward.

What a difference and surely if there are no patients for whatever reasons, then can we not divert some of these staff to the frontline vaccination programme without all of the cries we hear of lack of staff for this purpose.

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So in short, for small and medium sized business, for NI order German Bratwurst instead of UK sausages.
And this is the simplified one, double this kind of shit needed at UK EU border, and computer system says no at the moment.

When this come out during a seminar this MP Stewart reacted;
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3 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

All we hear is the NHS needs more money and more resources yet my wife has literally been into the local hospital this morning for a follow up to an operation she had last year. The department she went to is fully staffed and not a person other than her in there. The surgeon and his sidekick almost over eager to talk and see her such is the lack of patients. Twelve months ago it was like a busy emergency ward

Not my experience of the NHS...

Also, the NHS is one of the most cost effective health system in the world, check it out.

What I don't understand with people like you, is why don't you move to a place like Colombia or Ethiopia. The state is quasi inexistent, taxes are low, one has to pay for things that we take for granted in Europe such as health or safety, but visibly that's what you guys want. It took us generations to build civil and stable societies and you want to destroy them whereas you are just a plane journey away from your idealised utopia. Get on yer bike and leave those who are busy building a nice society get on with their job!

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Brexit fever is on today

Since this morning the ports in north france are congested, a combination of less ferries due to corona and companies getting convinced it will be a no deal or bad deal brexit so trying to get as much as possible stuff across channel before things turn really bad, volumes going in direction of the UK are at this moment about double the normal volume

Result : trucks are parked on the motorway up to Belgian border, motorway totally congested, trucks diverted via inland routes instead of the normal coastal A10 route.

Somewhere in this queue there might be a couple of trucks with Pfizer vaccines, now just hope they are not stuck too long as their temperature is a fucking big liability

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6 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Not my experience of the NHS...

Also, the NHS is one of the most cost effective health system in the world, check it out.

What I don't understand with people like you, is why don't you move to a place like Colombia or Ethiopia. The state is quasi inexistent, taxes are low, one has to pay for things that we take for granted in Europe such as health or safety, but visibly that's what you guys want. It took us generations to build civil and stable societies and you want to destroy them whereas you are just a plane journey away from your idealised utopia. Get on yer bike and leave those who are busy building a nice society get on with their job!

But Panoramix, we are leaving you in France to your utopia, thats why you live in France and not the UK, why complain when 17 million said that utopia wasn't for them, let them go and just trade with them, winner on both sides.

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12 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

But Panoramix, we are leaving you in France to your utopia, thats why you live in France and not the UK, why complain when 17 million said that utopia wasn't for them, let them go and just trade with them, winner on both sides.

Last time I checked, the NHS was in the UK.

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23 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Last time I checked, the NHS was in the UK.

So what you are saying is that you live in France but travel back to the UK for your health issues ? Sorry I thought the French health system was equal if not better than the NHS ?

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28 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

So what you are saying is that you live in France but travel back to the UK for your health issues ? Sorry I thought the French health system was equal if not better than the NHS ?

I've lived for 10 years in the UK, this is where my children were born, the girlfriend of a colleague was a junior doctor who was working really hard and I know how the NHS works.

So France paid for my studies and I paid taxes in the UK for 10 years... you should be happy.

The big difference between you and me is that I took the ferry when I decided that I would get a better deal elsewhere. You keep advocating for 3rd world country solutions in the UK whereas you could perfectly emigrate to a place with no public healthcare facilities which you seem to favour.

My wife is from Colombia in South America, I've spent lot of time there and I know exactly how bad families feel when they can't afford healthcare. That is just the way it is there, you have real money you get top quality healthcare, you are middle class you pay a fortune (more than UK NI contributions as lot of middle men need to make a living) to get OK healthcare (that's a lot worse than the NHS in case you were wondering), you are poor you die. If the NHS get dismantled Rees Mogg, his Etonian friends and his family will secure top quality healthcare plus they will become even richer as they will find ways to profit from middle-class families relying on crappy insurance schemes to get healthcare. I am not inventing it for some "project fear" operation, this is what happens in countries like Colombia. But anyway the British establishment got away with Brexit so now their next target is the NHS and they've calculated that there will be people like you to vote them in. I have to recognise that they are clever and know how to manipulate voters...

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The Tory backbench revolt against tiered lockdown and morons that cite their own experience getting a NHS dick extension with no problem or NHS capacity levels are below last year / not under real pressure etc, so where's the problem????

Running a hospital at the moment is much more complex & difficult than normal due to COVID-19.That doesn’t show up in usual national data or personal experiences that these fuckwits are currently quoting.

FACT. Pre-covid NHS already had large demand supply mismatch. Insufficient hospital beds. 100,000 staff vacancies. Despite frontline efforts, worst A&E/elective surgery performance in a decade. Huge overstretch in last winter (late Dec-Feb) bad respiratory numbers for last 5 yrs. 

This problem suddenly just didn't dissapear like magic or did it. With Covid elective surgery requiring acute care cancelled. Acute care occupancy varies by region between 80% snd 100%.

Due to staffing losses and staff off work due to Covid the supply of general and acute care beds this year is less than last year.

Infection control mean hospitals have to create three separate areas: red for covid, amber for patients waiting for test results and green for non covid.  Amount of lost capacity will vary by trust but all hospitals reporting capacity loss of somewhere between 5% and 20%.

Demand for theatre space hugely outstripping supply. Surgery slower due to need to don, doff and work in cumbersome PPE.

Then, as soon as number of covid patients rises, wards have to be turned from elective surgery recovery into covid wards.

The reality that today's 85% bed occupancy is equivalent to normal 95% bed occupancy. 

The list goes on and on. 

The bullshitters keep on bullshitting.

 

 

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8 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

...snip/

Now I know it would be a mistake to use Wayne as a sample Brit. 

/snip...

Whatever about being a sample, he's definitely a simple Brit.

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26 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

The big difference between you and me is that I took the ferry when I decided that I would get a better deal elsewhere. You keep advocating for 3rd world country solutions in the UK whereas you could perfectly emigrate to a place with no public healthcare facilities which you seem to favour.

So you have lived in the UK for 10 years and yet you still have your location as Rennes, mmmm so you are still a Frenchman at heart but living and taking all the privilidges that the UK gives you. Thats somewhat strange to me, I always adopt the attitude that if I wish to live somewhere, then I become a citizen of that place and support it whole heartidly. It was you after all that decided that the UK was better for you than France and yet you are not willing to support the democratic will of the UK, instead prioritising Frances needs over the UK, even stranger.

No I don't advocate 3rd world country solutions to anywhere, thats in your head only. Equally do I think the NHS is a wonderful organisation which has its place in the UK. Sure its a wonderful thing that has had almost unlimited money thrown at it to give health benefits to all those that use it, whats wrong not to like with that idea. Equally having worked around the fringes of the NHS where I have seen waste and largesse and with friends who are doctors, nurses and ancillaries anecdotes, it has become bloated and not as efficient as it could be. It needs to be rethought to bring about a change of tack to become much more decentralised much like Germany and others. Being big and grand we need to expect more from probably the fifth biggest employer in the world, it is not always effective and could do much better.

Can I ask you a question, which health system would you sooner have, the French or the UK's ?

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31 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The bullshitters keep on bullshitting.

Maybe, but I would include you in that zone as well, all you have done with your large Jack exposse of the NHS is to confirm that it is not operating efficiently and then saying everyone else is bullshitting to score political points, but not you.

Todays visit by my wife just confirms that, the surgeon was not doing what he should have been doing, surgery. Instead he was sitting in the ward waiting for patients to appear magically, which the powers to be at the top had decided that he shouldn't be doing elective surgery, just in case we have a Covid crisis in the area, which we haven't.

Extroadinary times, sadly the NHS and in particular NHE have not been able to raise their game to cope with the new demands brought about with this pandemic.

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If something like this is nutted out both sides will declare a win.

What will happen when Brexiteers work out all it is, is the same number of boats fishing in the same places and the same number and type of fish being caught ....except in effect some UK and EU fisherman will just swap boats and licenses?

Ha ha.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

So you have lived in the UK for 10 years and yet you still have your location as Rennes, mmmm so you are still a Frenchman at heart but living and taking all the privilidges that the UK gives you.

Sorry, my fingers slipped on the keyboard, I meant I lived in England...

I am currently in Rennes and I am really glad that I don't have to deal with this Brexit malarkey... I will leave you to it.

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Just now, Panoramix said:

Sorry, my fingers slipped on the keyboard, I meant I lived in England...

I am currently in Rennes and I am really glad that I don't have to deal with this Brexit malarkey... I will leave you to it.

So which health system do you prefer, the French or English ?

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2 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Sorry, my fingers slipped on the keyboard, I meant I lived in England...

I am currently in Rennes and I am really glad that I don't have to deal with this Brexit malarkey... I will leave you to it.

No apology required. What you said could mean past tense easily. Seemed clear to me. Mr Conspiracy Theory of course jumps in for the hell of it, and, as ever, has zero to contribute.

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Just now, cms said:

Mr Conspiracy Theory of course jumps in

Whoah up thats John Sparrow territory, where's any hint of I think there's a conspiracy.

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For once, I have seen Whyne's post, so, as a one off, I will reply politely.

In February 2017 my back problems deteriorated. Changed GP and saw the new one early April. MRI scan 3 days later, appointment with surgeon 2 weeks after that, operated for the first time late June. Further surgery, related and unrelated in 2018 and 2020. So far, since April 2017 I have had 13 MRI scans, 7 CAT scans, 1 PET scan, numerous ultra sound scans and more X-Rays than you could imagine. I now have 13 levels of my spine held together with titanium, a bigger passage burnt through my prostate, I have seen neurologists, angeologists, cardiologists .... Physio has been +/- 2 sessions a week since 2015.

Other than small sums I have paid for single room, and the most high powered surgeon's extra charges, everything has been covered by the standard state system and my "mutuelle" top up insurance (approx £55 per month).

Would I have had this treatment as quickly in UK on the NHS? You all know the answer. And the quality of care has been great. The NHS was a world leader, but that was years ago. Emergency cover in UK is still great, but in the public system, just about everything else has gone down the crapper.

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18 minutes ago, cms said:

No apology required. What you said could mean past tense easily. Seemed clear to me. Mr Conspiracy Theory of course jumps in for the hell of it, and, as ever, has zero to contribute.

Thanks, he managed to make me think I got it wrong....

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Glad I won't see his next dribble, so don't quote him please. Let him fester alone.

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16 minutes ago, cms said:

Would I have had this treatment as quickly in UK on the NHS? You all know the answer. 

That is actually a hard question. Certainly not after 2010 when Tory's ripped the guts out of the NHS and other ancillary sectors. Might have go back even further.

So bad now with staff lost to Brexit, Covid could not have chosen a better time to strike. 

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14 minutes ago, cms said:

Would I have had this treatment as quickly in UK on the NHS? You all know the answer. And the quality of care has been great. The NHS was a world leader, but that was years ago. Emergency cover in UK is still great, but in the public system, just about everything else has gone down the crapper.

So we have break through, CuMS thinks I am right, the NHS is not what it was despite the record amount of money that is being thrown out at it.

Now all we need is Jack is to admit he's a bullshitting colonel hindsight and CuMS is not his wee accolyte and job done :D

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@Waynemarlow

It depends...

If I were homeless - British (though we got better at making sure that everybody is covered)

For surgery - French, our docs are really good at it...

For emergency care - Between being brought by firefighters to a French hospital and British paramedics to a  British hospital, I might take the latter

As a taxpayer - British (French one is more expensive and too complicated to be efficient)

I think that the NHS is a great organisation that is surviving voluntary mismanagement by the government. If it was more loved by British politicians, it could be the greatest health service on earth. Sadly they decided to use it as a ball to play political football with it.

6 minutes ago, cms said:

Glad I won't see his next dribble, so don't quote him please. Let him fester alone.

Quote removed... :D

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9 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Certainly not after 2010 when Tory's ripped the guts out of the NHS and other ancillary sectors. Might have go back even further.

image.png.b96ce098e3631e0367d0693128899489.png

I wonder what the date was on that letter, oh its all the Tories fault.

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23 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

@Waynemarlow

It depends...

If I were homeless - British (though we got better at making sure that everybody is covered)

For surgery - French, our docs are really good at it...

For emergency care - Between being brought by firefighters to a French hospital and British paramedics to a  British hospital, I might take the latter

As a taxpayer - British (French one is more expensive and too complicated to be efficient)

I think that the NHS is a great organisation that is surviving voluntary mismanagement by the government. If it was more loved by British politicians, it could be the greatest health service on earth. Sadly they decided to use it as a ball to play political football with it.

Quote removed... :D

Having travelled and visited France regularly, I would say you have pretty much got things right, except the bit about the mismanagement by the government of the NHS, sorry its the sacred cow of the metropolitan elete and every liberal media reporter, it needs change deperately to regain its former glory ( and it could be great again ) and that can only be done from within such is its size. But who would dare take the risk to offend every metropolitan elete and liberal media reporter by instigating change.

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@Waynemarlow

Despite the issues, the NHS is one of the cheapest public healthcare system per patient around the world, there is a limit to running organisations on tight budgets. It tends to cost more money to countries (like France) where the health system is run for profit in part. My local hospital was mostly owned by doctors but is now owned at 70% by financial shareholders (https://www.vivalto-sante.com/en/the-group/shareholders/investor-shareholders/ )

These people expect profit and we are footing the bill... Selling off bit of the NHS to be "run by efficient private enterprises" will have the same effect of price hikes and quality of care is going down according to medical staff who go on strikes (unlike some other professions, medical staff normally don't strike in France...).

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10 hours ago, LeoV said:

JGH do no respond to the troll with personal stories, he will abuse them, it is the way he is.

Even better, nobody respond at all........he's reaching peak trolling level from the little I can see, leave him to his echo chamber.

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Skankhunt 42...

Talks seem to have blown up, if Barnier leaves the UK tomorrow it looks like it is the end.

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Yep, and Barniers team will stay in London this weekend, having a piss. Probably without Barnier.

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2 hours ago, LeoV said:

Yep, and Barniers team will stay in London this weekend, having a piss. Probably without Barnier.

Xmas shopping, as mentioned before

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Something happened that soured the mood. And not between Barnier an Frost, but in a room where the talks were about LPF.
Or the UK give in a bit on LPF and EU said that is not enough, throwing the UK off, or EU changed tack in UK eyes, which could mean a real change or something the UK still did not think about. And we will not know what went on.

From politico;
How Brexit negotiations work:
The chief negotiators hold high-level talks which are not that relevant to the detail, while officials disperse into breakout rooms to discuss different policy areas and later hammer out the fine points in legal texts. “You have discussions where both sides share texts, they discuss the texts, they work through what’s common and what’s different and try and have a bit of back and forth about what can be agreed,” Ruparel explained. The top brass, including the PM, can step in to resolve the big political issues.

Pressure cooker: “It definitely gets tense and heated at times,” he said. “We got very frustrated with each other and even the officials got frustrated with each other and found each other difficult. I think that’s normal.” He added that when the stakes are high, the trust and communication between the top person in the room and the prime minister is crucial. “That feedback loop is not always perfect,” he said. “How well that’s working will be really important.”

How to stop leaks: “I basically stopped taking any calls from journalists because you can’t really have conversations without giving it away,” Ruparel said. Meanwhile, the two sides would discuss what would be said in public about the talks, because a deal has to be sellable on both sides without souring the relationship.

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Looks like some cracks are appearing in European unity....

https://www.ouest-france.fr/europe/grande-bretagne/brexit/brexit-la-france-n-exclut-pas-de-mettre-son-veto-en-cas-de-mauvais-accord-7072743

According to Ouest-France, France is talking of vetoing a deal if not enough is done for fishermen whereas Germany absolutely wants a deal.

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That is not new, that is 4.5 years old. With no leaks and the promise to keep it secret what has been told in talks press repeats the same thing over and over, on both sides.
 And Fish is so nice to use, very tangible.
https://iea.org.uk/fisheries-are-not-worth-sacrificing-a-post-brexit-deal-over/

In EU parliament new text is drown up and talked about to change Art 50. Lessons learned.

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Reading up, Barnier is millimetres from his red lines, but did not cross them. EU countries said, be careful not to cross them.
So no signs of sell out on the EU side :)

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Fishing was always a red herring, for both sides. A small issue compared to the really important one, but nevertheless an issue which could be used as a public opinion weapon brandished in warlike fashion against the enemy. Castex comments in Boulogne are pretty much what people with common sense have known all along. A new deal about access to UK waters will be needed, and it will mean a reduction for boats from some EU countries. But it is a multi-faceted subject, with discussion possible on fish spawning grounds, feeding grounds, migration patterns, fish caught by which nations and consumed by which nations, fish processed where, by whom, with fish landed by which nations in which nations, fish consumed in which nations, by type and quantity.. It is a complicated subject, but with plenty of angles to examine where consensus can be found. The one curved ball that the UK threw and do not want to catch is that it is their own domestic quotas policy which has caused the perceived destruction of UK fleet.

But, in the end, a red herring, which can be solved FAR more easily than the tough stuff on LPF.

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On fish, they play with that all in the negotiating room, lots of possibilities and problems.
And with LPF and governance.
People like Korteweg are calling the UK tactics Boris's Boomerang, UK compromise but on the other hand toughen other stuff, which hits back with the EU demanding more governance. WAB and IMB, and on fish, UK says  EU more quota then nothing (keep 18% from past 65%), but British waters from 6 to 12 Miles and no EU boats there. EU reaction; you are kidding, that is not the basis of UNCLOS.
Lets get more EU quota on EU consumed fish, and you get more quota on UK consumed fish. If not, no access tariff free. And no yearly talks about it, but a long standing relationship.

EU just does not want to lay down and roll over. UK sticking to May's red lines with a bit of compromise shown and then legislation to make said compromise difficult.
EU on their red lines but not willing to cross them. Next week this is the last week the UK held any advantage to getting a deal. And both sides do not trust each other, that is clear.

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This weekend Johnson has a big decision which doesn't seem to have been given much airplay. 

Detail here.

Next week the UK gov introduce the Finance Bill with yet more powers to break international law, on top of those in the UKIM Bill. This a money bill that gives HOL no means to stop.

The EU are not going to prosecute any agreement with someone seeking to break it. Barnier has told EU ambassadors this on Wednesday.

1. If Johnson allows Finance Bill to continue unamended EU negotiations are OVER.

OR

2. If he amends Finance Bill to keep EU negotiations alive, then huge loss of face. Backbench in revolt and countdown to his leadership being OVER starts. 

He is screwed.

This farce may only have days left and it's all over.

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Yep, Thursday EU meeting and Finance Bill will be known I think. Anyway only 17 working days left, business is loving it.

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8 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

This weekend Johnson has a big decision which doesn't seem to have been given much airplay. 

...

This farce may only have days left and it's all over.

Wishful thinking I fear, Jack. Reluctant though I am to reference WW2 rhetoric, this looks more like the end of the beginning to me. Dark days ahead.

Cheers,

                W.

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3 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:
14 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

This weekend Johnson has a big decision which doesn't seem to have been given much airplay. 

...This farce may only have days left and it's all over.

Wishful thinking I fear, Jack. Reluctant though I am to reference WW2 rhetoric, this looks more like the end of the beginning to me. Dark days ahead.

Cheers,

                W.

 

Leo and I raise you. :D

6 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Yep, Thursday EU meeting and Finance Bill will be known I think.

 

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Bets are open;
Next Friday 1400 hr UTC, that will be the time it will be clear.
Kipper for the winner.

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Interesting interview with McAllistair on the Beeb at lunch, seems the EU will meet over the Xmas New Year period if needed, maybe that 23:59 on the 31st where a great victory is announced by both sides may still be on.

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1 hour ago, LeoV said:

Bets are open;
Next Friday 1400 hr UTC, that will be the time it will be clear.
Kipper for the winner.

Final reading and vote in HOC is Wednesday and EU meet Thursday. 

Thursday 1600 UTC (and EU announce so enough time for evening news and Fridays papers.) 

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Geez Jack, thanks so much for reminding about my marriage...

3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

The funniest woman in Britain.

snip/

 

Actually, this whole brexit thingmy feels very familiar.  As in familial familiar.

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36 minutes ago, crashdog said:

Geez Jack, thanks so much for reminding about my marriage...

She appears to be an expert on things relationship and legal.

 

 

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Same situation today on the motorway to Calais, endless lorry congestion, a normal transit from here would take 6 to 7 hours, now they count on an average of 24 hours which means that veg that is supposed to be shipped out now for tomorrow morning's early market will be one day late. Apparently our fries are top of the list at this moment, the UK seems to be hellbent on stocking up as much as possible on frozen fries ... might make sense, if they keep their fish then they must have more fries, batter, newspapers and vinegar, yikes.

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Barnier;

After one week of intense negotiations in London, together with @DavidGHFrost, we agreed today that the conditions for an agreement are not met, due to significant divergences on level playing field, governance and fisheries.
We agreed to pause the talks in order to brief our Principals on the state of play of the negotiations. President @vonderleyen and Prime Minister Johnson will discuss the state of play tomorrow afternoon.
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Thanks Leo.  That is unbelievable.  Predictable, yes.  But its hardly as complicated a negotiation as required to end apartheid, or to re-unite Germany or, for that matter, to establish the peace of Westphalia in the Holy Roman Empire.  This will require a rewrite of the textbooks on negotiation in international affairs.

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And VDL can do nothing then hold on to the red lines of the EU mandate, but BJ has absolute control and can override his own red lines. So VDL can do nothin more then;
Hi mr Johnson, we are on the limits, I can not move, can you ?

So endgame is on.
 

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BUMP 

Winner winner kipper dinner

Nominate your time and day for when the outcome is clear....

Get in quick .....could be as early as this weekend if Boris folds

8 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:
9 hours ago, LeoV said:

Bets are open;
Next Friday 1400 hr UTC, that will be the time it will be clear.
Kipper for the winner.

Final reading and vote in HOC is Wednesday and EU meet Thursday. 

Thursday 1600 UTC (and EU announce so enough time for evening news and Fridays papers.)

 

 

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1 hour ago, LeoV said:

Hi mr Johnson, we are on the limits, I can not move, can you ?

So endgame is on.

Yup, there’s still some way to go in the machinations of the politics of what should have been a deal that suited all. 

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Jack, I think is not funny for many. So I am sorry to put it up.

If you are in the UK you have to live with this...
Today, Channel 4 news; Tory MP Andrew Bridgen says the problem with the Brexit talks is that the UK is not negotiating with the countries it trades with.

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3 hours ago, LeoV said:

Barnier;

After one week of intense negotiations in London, together with @DavidGHFrost, we agreed today that the conditions for an agreement are not met, due to significant divergences on level playing field, governance and fisheries.
We agreed to pause the talks in order to brief our Principals on the state of play of the negotiations. President @vonderleyen and Prime Minister Johnson will discuss the state of play tomorrow afternoon.

Then we have .......

Frost's tweet on 27 November a week ago. 

"But for a deal to be possible it must fully respect UK sovereignty.

That is not just a word - it has practical consequences. That includes: controlling our borders; deciding ourselves on a robust and principled subsidy control system; and controlling our fishing waters."

_____________________

So tomorrow afternoon VDL and BumFace. 

VDL; Boris what is this "UK sovereignty" thing your man keeps fucking banging on about? 

BJ; Ursula it is the untrammelled right of the UK to do anything it wants, anytime it wants.

VDL; OK Boris nice catching up, good luck with that, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, I'm off. 

BJ (stammering); But.. but .Ursula what about our agreement? 

VDL; But you just just said you couldn't have an agreement Boris....it would take away your sovereignty..bye and please don't call me after tomorrow, its too late after that as we have had enough of your bloviating shit.

VDL goes off line ....blank Zoom screen.

BJ. Ogh no ...now I'm fucked

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33 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Today, Channel 4 news; Tory MP Andrew Bridgen says the problem with the Brexit talks is that the UK is not negotiating with the countries it trades with.

Back to 2016.....David Davis ..Liam Fox I forget who???

The UK would negotiate country by EU country. 

 

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The EU may also want to play a long term game. BoJo won't stay PM for ever and a bit of Brexit chaos might eventually mellow the Brits a bit....

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