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Brexit WTF, WTF

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

And now the Over 65's turn.

EMZA4-SXYAAPcPC.jpeg

EMZA4-TW4AIJ8x0.jpeg

 

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

If only 50-64 year-olds could vote now starting to square up

CON: 421 (50%)
LAB: 149 (17%)
SNP: 47 (4%)
LDM: 9 (12%)
PLC: 4 (0.5%)
GRN: 1 (3%)

Northern Ireland: DUP 8, SF 6, SDLP 2, ALL 1, UUP 1.

Conservative Majority of 192.

EMY6VTzX0AADF1H.jpeg

 

58 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 And final one if only 25-49 year-olds could vote:

LAB: 310 (43%)
CON: 240 (34%)
SNP: 56 (5%)
LDM: 21 (13%)
PLC: 3 (0.5%)
GRN: 1 (3%)

Northern Ireland: DUP 8, SF 7, SDLP 2, ALL 1.

Labour 16 short of a Majority

EMY6OYpWwAU8VAj.jpeg

 

Jack, you idiot, 

the only thing these statistics prove is that when one is young, dumb and full of cum they/we are more liberal minded but then most of them/us grow up and in doing so gain a better understanding of life and change their opinions.

 

Obviously you’re one of the idiots that never grew up :D

 

 

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^^^^^^^

Seaworm you actually missed 18 - 24's or do you think the UK voting age is 25? As a man who prides himself on his own intelligence you surely say some dumb fuck things.

There is no "statistical proof" to actual outcome obviously offered by the map author or myself. To think it was nnis not a good sign.

As said it is simply representative of vote of one sub-segment. I could of posted a chart of geo located 3 legged mice and that would still be representative of the vote.

If there is some correlation with the above and actual election outcome then maybe it is location of seat changes and the Tories target voters called "Workington Man"  being a northern male over the age of 45 without a university degree, who enjoys rugby league, and who had previously supported Labour but voted for Brexit in the 2016 referendum. 

8 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

This is how the election would have looked if only 18-24 year-olds could vote: 5 years on they move up the ladder and a new lot comes in behind and at the other end of the scale some die, many Con voters.

LAB: 544 (56%)
SNP: 58 (5%)
LDM: 22 (11%)
CON: 4 (21%)
GRN: 1 (4%)
PLC: 1 (0.5%)
IND: 1

Labour Majority of 438 Seats.

EMZbVt4XYAAk1EC.jpeg

 

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The word "pitch" here is very apt.

The Johnson Government are going to be in full time marketing mode for next 5 years spending tens of millions telling everyone via glossy productions with heart pulling sound tracks that make you tack the Union Jack to the chimney, of how great things are going and the future is just fuckin rosy. 

That is a lot easier that doing real life governing. Even the mundane like this Northern Hotline shit, is mutton dressed up as lamb....each MP already has the phone number of all other MP's.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The word "pitch" here is very apt.

The Johnson Government are going to be in full time marketing mode for next 5 years spending tens of millions telling everyone via glossy productions with heart pulling sound tracks that make you tack the Union Jack to the chimney, of how great things are going and the future is just fuckin rosy. 

That is a lot easier that doing real life governing. Even the mundane like this Northern Hotline shit, is mutton dressed up as lamb....each MP already has the phone number of all other MP's.

 

 

Propaganda machine is only just cranking up.......just wait. 

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25 minutes ago, mad said:

Propaganda machine is only just cranking up.......just wait. 

OK. I shall wait.

(Though I have a sneaky suspicion that Boris et al have already been engaging in a bit of propaganda, which would make what Mad said... ...never mind.) 

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5 hours ago, spankoka said:

I guess convoys during two world wars were a wasted effort then. 

I recall convoys bringing more than foodstuffs, including a bunch of armaments while the work forces was heavily engaged in shooting at Germans.

And, the point of the convoys is that with proper planning you can probably supply most of the UK via Halifax and Sydney NS. 

 

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Can't believe that the bendy banana myth is still going on...

No idea if your bananas bend, when facing myths, this was about shape 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/3443343/EU-to-allow-sale-of-odd-shaped-fruit-and-vegetables.html

"

But the notorious regulation which dictates that "straight" bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature" will remain in place because "no objections from banana growers, buyers, traders or consumers have been received regarding this requirement".

The rules are being dropped to cut red tape after growing protests from supermarkets, grocers, and farmers, including the Prince of Wales, who have been forced to throw away produce that does not measure up to exacting requirements drawn up by eurocrats decades ago.

An estimated 20 per cent of the British harvest is thrown away to comply with the EU regulations, rules which have been calculated to add as much as 40 per cent to the price of some vegetables, such as carrots.

"Nature does not always comply with a perfectly rounded apple and poker-straight carrot. People should be given the chance to buy odd-shaped fruit and veg as they taste just as good," said NFU Horticulture" 

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Propaganda machine is only just cranking up.......just wait. 

Those scrutinising the Johnson Government's Brexit plans (if indeed they get any detail under secrecy provisions passed at 2nd Reading on Friday) should recast this 1984 vid of a shopping frenzy on the north side of the Irish border. Turn it into post Brexit shopping in France where the Governments response is simply every Briton deserves a chance to buy some wine once in a while.

1984 was interesting times. Young Irish shopgirl sacked for not checking out Sth African grapefruit as an apathaid protest, Thatcher secret mine closure list nearly 4 times greater than that publicised and secret talks to change Irish border with pending Anglo Irish Treaty.

Back to the Customs border guards striking. Nearly 10 years later they were out of a job with introduction of the EU Single Market.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

No idea if your bananas bend, when facing myths, this was about shape 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/3443343/EU-to-allow-sale-of-odd-shaped-fruit-and-vegetables.html

"

But the notorious regulation which dictates that "straight" bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature" will remain in place because "no objections from banana growers, buyers, traders or consumers have been received regarding this requirement".

The rules are being dropped to cut red tape after growing protests from supermarkets, grocers, and farmers, including the Prince of Wales, who have been forced to throw away produce that does not measure up to exacting requirements drawn up by eurocrats decades ago.

An estimated 20 per cent of the British harvest is thrown away to comply with the EU regulations, rules which have been calculated to add as much as 40 per cent to the price of some vegetables, such as carrots.

"Nature does not always comply with a perfectly rounded apple and poker-straight carrot. People should be given the chance to buy odd-shaped fruit and veg as they taste just as good," said NFU Horticulture" 

From 2008. I couldn’t see anymore as it’s behind a paywall. 

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

^^^^^^^

Seaworm you actually missed 18 - 24's or do you think the UK voting age is 25?

.

As per usual, the point flies over your head which I suppose is not surprising since you’ve got your head  permanently stuck up your arse.

My point one more time:

Young people generally speaking are clueless about the reality of life and as such tend to vote idealistically but as they age and mature they change their perspective and therefore their minds on issues.

 

The graphs and statistics you posted and which I quoted are proof of that and not what you think you gobshite.

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9 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

....

No need to go full protectionist, just match that of the EU and other trading partners. I recall something from the past about the shape of bananas being of historic interest... 

....

 

The banana myth, along with apple myth and a gazillion other lies about the EU perpetrated often enough by Boris Johnson when he claimed to be a journalist.

You might want to familiarize yourself with this debunking list Euromyths A-Z index

This one of particular interest

Brussels bans barmaids from baring chests

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2 minutes ago, KC375 said:

The banana myth, along with apple myth and a gazillion other lies about the EU perpetrated often enough by Boris Johnson when he claimed to be a journalist.

You might want to familiarize yourself with this debunking list Euromyths A-Z index

This one of particular interest

Brussels bans barmaids from baring chests

Brexit just keeps on giving.

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42 minutes ago, Sea warrior said:

 My point one more time: 

Young people generally speaking are clueless....

I'm guessing this repeating thing is a speech impediment, bad fall?

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10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

From 2021 Eurostat will have to make it a Top 20 to get one EU poor mention.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

well... there's pretty good evidence of why BREXIT makes sense, the EU cities are doing much better than rural UK. 

It will be just as fucked there after Brexit. The problem is that the UK is London centric. Just look at how they devolved power to the "home countries" They created Scottish and NI parliaments, but no English parliament.

Of course EU cities are doing better than UK rural, that's only logical. It's London's fault that 9 of 10 poorest ares are in the UK.

 

What's next, you will be blaming Canada for Trump?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOR38552MJA

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16 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

...Just look at how they devolved power to the "home countries."They created Scottish and NI parliaments, but no English parliament...

Not all power is devolved to Union parliament's.

Also seperate parliament's pre union. Pre Union Scottish Parliament 1600's to 1700's. Stormont around 10 years after creation of Irish Free State in 1922. Devolved as we know them today obviously latter day creations. English Parliament 13th Century until joined with Scots in 18th Century to form GB Parliament. Not sure what adding a seperate England Parliament into Westminister would achieve as it functions pretty much as one anyway when you pull out devolved bits that Union MP's are excluded from.

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5 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

No idea if your bananas bend, when facing myths, this was about shape 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/3443343/EU-to-allow-sale-of-odd-shaped-fruit-and-vegetables.html

"

But the notorious regulation which dictates that "straight" bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature" will remain in place because "no objections from banana growers, buyers, traders or consumers have been received regarding this requirement".

The rules are being dropped to cut red tape after growing protests from supermarkets, grocers, and farmers, including the Prince of Wales, who have been forced to throw away produce that does not measure up to exacting requirements drawn up by eurocrats decades ago.

An estimated 20 per cent of the British harvest is thrown away to comply with the EU regulations, rules which have been calculated to add as much as 40 per cent to the price of some vegetables, such as carrots.

"Nature does not always comply with a perfectly rounded apple and poker-straight carrot. People should be given the chance to buy odd-shaped fruit and veg as they taste just as good," said NFU Horticulture" 

AS if the Telegraph was honest about European matters. This is the paper Boris Johnson was working for when he was a EU journalist....

Here is the actual text, tells me where it bans bendy bananas : http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:1994R2257:20060217:EN:PDF

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6 hours ago, Sea warrior said:

As per usual, the point flies over your head which I suppose is not surprising since you’ve got your head  permanently stuck up your arse.

My point one more time:

Young people generally speaking are clueless about the reality of life and as such tend to vote idealistically but as they age and mature they change their perspective and therefore their minds on issues.

Why young people are allowed to change their mind and who they vote for, but not people who voted for brexit?

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25 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

Why young people are allowed to change their mind and who they vote for, but not people who voted for brexit?

Obviously by the election result, most Brexiteers held their ground and a good few Remainers held their noses and voted for fair play, if that wasn't the case, Boris would not have had as as large majority as he got.

Something you guys on this forum thread really underestimate, the core UK voter is as stubborn as a mule, once they make up their minds, its almost improbable for them to reverse that decision, something the media, the London bubble and those who get all their information from the internet, just can't understand.

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Just now, Waynemarlow said:

Obviously by the election result, most Brexiteers held their ground and a good few Remainers held their noses and voted for fair play, if that wasn't the case, Boris would not have had as as large majority as he got.

The Conservatives, (or Boris if you wish to pretend the UK is American) got 44% of the vote. Meaning if some remainers "held their noses" and voted Tory, then many more leavers ran for the hills from his lies. 

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The bendy banana myth gives a good insight. Wayne and friends, even faced with incontrovertible truth, still see the issue as a fiendish EU plot, imposing stupid rules on the sensible Brits. EU bashing and blaming has taken on religious fervour.

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17 minutes ago, cms said:

The bendy banana myth gives a good insight. Wayne and friends, even faced with incontrovertible truth, still see the issue as a fiendish EU plot, imposing stupid rules on the sensible Brits. EU bashing and blaming has taken on religious fervour.

Only an ex Brit gone all Froggy would state such utter drivel.

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33 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

The Conservatives, (or Boris if you wish to pretend the UK is American) got 44% of the vote. Meaning if some remainers "held their noses" and voted Tory, then many more leavers ran for the hills from his lies. 

Psssst don't tell anyone, but there might have been a few who voted for labour and might have voted "Out".

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Quote

Ken Clarke has warned Boris Johnson he must “stop campaigning and get on with governing”, condemning the prime minister for seemingly having no detailed plans for a final Brexit deal, or for other vital issues such as social care.

The veteran former Conservative MP, who stepped down from parliament at the election having been stripped of the Tory whip shortly beforehand, said Johnson should replace advisers such as Dominic Cummings with people who were able to govern.

Clarke said that while Johnson’s 80-strong majority meant he was able to run the country more or less as he chose, Clarke told BBC Radio 5 he had seen few signs yet of any coherent policy programme.

“Governing the country is more than going around saying, ‘Oooh, 2020 is going to be a golden year, and we’re going to be global Britain,’” he said. “At the moment we’ve got a stagnant, fragile economy, an angry, discontented population. It’s a very dangerous world out there in many, many ways.”

Clarke said Johnson’s policy vagueness was particularly acute on Brexit: “I could never get out of Boris – and nobody so far could get out of Boris – what he has in mind for the eventual deal. To say they’re generalities is an understatement.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/22/boris-johnson-told-to-stop-campaigning-and-start-governing-ken-clarke-brexit

 

Starting to sound like 5 years of Trump style leadership coming up!1

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1 hour ago, Waynemarlow said:

Psssst don't tell anyone, but there might have been a few who voted for labour and might have voted "Out".

I’m just that out you can’t draw brexit correlations with the party votes, that’s all.

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15 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

I’m just that out you can’t draw brexit correlations with the party votes, that’s all.

So why intimate that as Boris got 44% " Meaning if some remainers "held their noses" and voted Tory, then many more leavers ran for the hills from his lies. "

Sort of sums up a percentage of posters on this thread who know diddly squat other than to throw in any insult you can and then call it all Boris's lies.

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10 hours ago, Sea warrior said:

 

Young people generally speaking are clueless about the reality of life and as such tend to vote idealistically but as they age and mature they change their perspective and therefore their minds on issues.

 

*Needs Citation*

The graph simply proves that young people voted differently to old people. The rest is purely your opinion. 


Plenty of young people at the age of 25 have been working 9 years, on shit money struggling to afford housing, pretty sure they're more in touch with the realities of life today then pensioners who retired at 55 or earlier with two houses, have been out of work longer than they were ever in it but still think 'those millennials' are all just layabouts who have it easy. 


Did you know that its not until after the 30-39 that you see any conservative majority in the demographic?
Voting%20intention%20by%20age%20October%202019-01.png

 

Let me guess, those people in their mid thirties don't know shit about life either. 

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31 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

So why intimate that as Boris got 44% " Meaning if some remainers "held their noses" and voted Tory, then many more leavers ran for the hills from his lies. "

Sort of sums up a percentage of posters on this thread who know diddly squat other than to throw in any insult you can and then call it all Boris's lies.

I was refuting your claim

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10 hours ago, KC375 said:

The banana myth, along with apple myth and a gazillion other lies about the EU perpetrated often enough by Boris Johnson when he claimed to be a journalist.

You might want to familiarize yourself with this debunking list Euromyths A-Z index

This one of particular interest

Brussels bans barmaids from baring chests

Quote

Myth: Curved bananas have been banned by Brussels bureaucrats, with shops ordered not to sell fruit which is too small or abnormally bent.
Sources: The Sun, Daily Mirror, Daily Mail, Daily Express (21 September 1994)

Truth: Yes … and no. Curved bananas have not been banned. In fact, as with the supposed banning of curved cucumbers, the Commission regulation classifies bananas according to quality and size for the sake of easing the trade of bananas internationally.

Sounds like the propaganda arm of the EU has been/is very busy conditioning the population. 

They even give you a website that tries to reassure you that they are in fact benign in their regulations. 

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9 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

 

It will be just as fucked there after Brexit. The problem is that the UK is London centric. Just look at how they devolved power to the "home countries" They created Scottish and NI parliaments, but no English parliament.

Of course EU cities are doing better than UK rural, that's only logical. It's London's fault that 9 of 10 poorest ares are in the UK.

  

What's next, you will be blaming Canada for Trump?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOR38552MJA

Agreed, the UK needs to pay attention to their "Flyover" population, though you probably refer to them as the "roll over" being so rail centric.

Running the country for the tastes of the large metropolitan area(s) gives you the mess that California is in. 

And as for Trump, not anything to do with Canada, we only blame them for comic relief on South Park.  Trump was and will be elected by the backash against the urban pandering going on. With the Electoral college there's a bit more of a safety against the tyranny of the majority. 

Much Like Scotland, Canada doesn't really have a lot of choices, and they simultaneously benefit from being carried along and complain bitterly that they don't get to steer. \

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3 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Sounds like the propaganda arm of the EU has been/is very busy conditioning the population. 

They even give you a website that tries to reassure you that they are in fact benign in their regulations. 

Quote

On 29 July 2008, the European Commission held a preliminary vote concerning the repeal of certain regulations related to the quality of specific fruit and vegetables that included provisions related to size and shape. According to the Commission's press release, "In this era of high prices and growing demand, it makes no sense to throw these products away or destroy them." The Agriculture Commissioner stated, "This is a concrete example of our drive to cut red tape and I will continue to push until it goes through. [...] It shouldn't be the EU's job to regulate these things. It is far better to leave it to market operators."[10] Regulation 1221/2008 took effect as of 1 July 2009. Though neither the press release cited above nor Regulation 1221/2008 made any mention of bananas or Regulation 2257/94, some reports of the changes treated them as including the banana quality standards regulation and contained explicit or apparent references to this regulation, using expressions such as "the infamous 'straight banana' ruling".[11][12] Some sources have claimed this to be an admission that the original regulations did indeed ban "bent bananas",[13][14] or that it was accepted that it was "a farce".[15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_Regulation_(EC)_No._2257/94

Quote

EU rules do not ban any kind of banana, no matter how straight or curved it may be. What they do, however, is classify the pricing of bananas according to their shape: The best ones must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature;" the next best can have "slight defects of shape;" and the cheapest or poorest quality can display "defects of shape." And though this grading scheme might discriminate against a perfectly good but defectively shaped banana, it hardly amounts to a ban.

 

The bendy banana saga is perhaps the most notorious of what has come to be known as the Euromyth. Over the last two decades, British tabloids have exploited the U.K.'s deeply ambivalent relationship with the European Union by publishing exaggerated, funny and often completely unfounded stories about how the "barmy bureaucrats in Brussels" are out to destroy old English traditions and the British way of life. Coming up with creative scaremongering is something of a national pastime for the press.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/06/21/482952581/bendy-bananas-and-barmaid-bosoms-the-u-k-s-crazy-anti-eu-food-myths

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18 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

 Having said that, as already mentioned there is the 'goldfish bowl' effect, assumptive thinking which provides ample influence. Cultural influence is not random. In my view many mistake peer pressure for a conspiracy.

 

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4 hours ago, Upp3 said:

Why young people are allowed to change their mind and who they vote for, but not people who voted for brexit?

Jeez!! What a stupid question. (And you remoaners had the audacity to call the leavers the dumb ones)

The people were allowed to change their minds about Brexit you numpty, that was what the GE was for, and guess what? many did change their minds apparently because the tories won in a landslide this time.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Panoramix said:

AS if the Telegraph was honest about European matters. This is the paper Boris Johnson was working for when he was a EU journalist....

Here is the actual text, tells me where it bans bendy bananas : http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:1994R2257:20060217:EN:PDF

This is the beauty of a well written specification, it is exclusionary without needing to state the bias, you simply select characteristics that are trivial and make them mandatory, knowing that the competition can't meet them. The US Govt did this with requirement for error correcting memory back in the day, that practically excluded Macintosh computers without ever mentioning them. 

 

—▼B II. QUALITY This standard defines the quality requirements to be met by unripened green bananas after preparation and packaging. A. Minimum requirements

with the stalk intact, without bending, fungal damage or dessication, — with pistils removed, — free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers,

"Who defines abnormal and malformation:"  if the banana doesn't look like what you are used to seeing from YOUR colonies, then it's not normal. 

This was particularly interesting: I would have to have more data on who's banana's are being excluded or down graded. 

The reference fruit for measurement of the length and grade is: — the median finger on the outer row of the hand, — the finger next to the cut sectioning the hand, on the outer row of the cluster. The minimum length permitted is 14 cm and the minimum grade permitted is 27 mm. ▼M3 As an exception to the third paragraph, bananas produced in Madeira, the Azores, the Algarve, Crete, Lakonia and Cyprus which are less than 14 cm in length may be marketed in the Community but must be classified in Cl

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19 minutes ago, mad said:

So you simply classify the other guy's stuff as inferior, and of course few will market it. It's more subtle than an outright ban, and actually more effective. 

The British tabloids and their counter parts Der Speigel and probably a few French/Italian/Belgian fishwrappers that I couldn't name are sensationalist. No surprise there. More ad revenue when you sell outrage than you sell compliance. 

Even now the marketing campaigns of the various factions rely on strong emotional appeals instead of reason. That's politics

 

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48 minutes ago, MiddayGun said:

*Needs Citation*

The graph simply proves that young people voted differently to old people. The rest is purely your opinion. 

That’s the trouble with you lot, you are incapable of thinking for yourselves And rely totally on “links” and “graphs” provided by others.

Only an idiot would deny that generally speaking, as people get older they get wiser and with the gained knowledge and  experience, they change their minds on subjects and issues.

At least the intelligent ones will which leaves you lot at a disadvantage.

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12 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

This is the beauty of a well written specification, it is exclusionary without needing to state the bias, you simply select characteristics that are trivial and make them mandatory, knowing that the competition can't meet them. The US Govt did this with requirement for error correcting memory back in the day, that practically excluded Macintosh computers without ever mentioning them. 

 

—▼B II. QUALITY This standard defines the quality requirements to be met by unripened green bananas after preparation and packaging. A. Minimum requirements

with the stalk intact, without bending, fungal damage or dessication, — with pistils removed, — free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers,

"Who defines abnormal and malformation:"  if the banana doesn't look like what you are used to seeing from YOUR colonies, then it's not normal. 

This was particularly interesting: I would have to have more data on who's banana's are being excluded or down graded. 

The reference fruit for measurement of the length and grade is: — the median finger on the outer row of the hand, — the finger next to the cut sectioning the hand, on the outer row of the cluster. The minimum length permitted is 14 cm and the minimum grade permitted is 27 mm. ▼M3 As an exception to the third paragraph, bananas produced in Madeira, the Azores, the Algarve, Crete, Lakonia and Cyprus which are less than 14 cm in length may be marketed in the Community but must be classified in Cl

Great example of selective reading.

It just says that the stalk (not the banana) must be unbent, I am not a banana expert but that's probably to avoid rot as obviously if you bend the stalk it will damage it and open a path for fungi to get in. That's not about the banana shape, just about not damaging the stalk.

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1 minute ago, Panoramix said:

Great example of selective reading.

It just says that the stalk (not the banana) must be unbent, I am not a banana expert but that's probably to avoid rot as obviously if you bend the stalk it will damage it and open a path for fungi to get in. That's not about the banana shape, just about not damaging the stalk.

free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers, 

apparently was not sufficiently notable for you... 

perhaps if the font is larger and red? 

Free from Malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers,

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I rest my banana (case). Insult from Wayne and pseudo denial from Lioness. Facts are irrelevant to these people. Lioness is often more rational, but Wayne needs help.

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Just now, LionessRacing said:

free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers, 

apparently was not sufficiently notable for you... 

perhaps if the font is larger and red? 

Free from Malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers,

free from abnormal curvature is not straight banana nor curved bananas as most bananas are curved and some are straight!

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12 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

No idea if your bananas bend, when facing myths, this was about shape 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/3443343/EU-to-allow-sale-of-odd-shaped-fruit-and-vegetables.html

 ...

 People should be given the chance to buy odd-shaped fruit and veg as they taste just as good...

 

6 hours ago, Panoramix said:

AS if the Telegraph was honest about European matters. This is the paper Boris Johnson was working for when he was a EU journalist....

Here is the actual text, tells me where it bans bendy bananas : http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:1994R2257:20060217:EN:PDF

The whole bendy banana thing, or as actually written in the regs “free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers” illustrates the insanity on both sides of the EU – Brexit muddle.

The UK press, and in response the EU, have made an industry of EU myths. The intentional spreading of lies and false narrative to generate revenue is an expected business model if you publish novels. It is immoral if you position yourself as a member of the news media.

On the other hand 2,000 words used to define the attributes of marketable bananas, is well, just bananas. How much effort went into writing and promulgating the regulations? How much time goes into enforcing the regulation? Enforcement must be a nightmare – what % of spots are greater than 1 cm? How curved is abnormally curved? What is “natural colouration”? What is a “sufficient portion” of the crown. Enforcing these regulations must be an exercise in either fake work, or capricious bureaucratic over reach?

Was there really a societal need for these regulations? Who was suffering from poorly defined bananas?

This is a classic example of brussels felt need to regulate where a free market likely works better. A free market addresses these issues by people willingly making decisions and adjusting to the decisions of others. 

What exactly is an “abnormal curvature”....that is meaningless term. It is completely arbitrary and judgemental. It is begging for abuse,...for a little bribe I can agree that these bananas are “normally curved” no bribe and your produce is rejected (or classed as catagory III)....

I’m not saying there is corruption in banana curvature enforcement but it is bad practice to write regulations that put all the power in the arbitrary judgement of enforcers, that is the devils playground.

On one side of the engagement you have pathological liars who earn money by stirring up false outrage at over reach by the EU.

On the other side you have regulatory bodies with an overwhelming felt need to gum up free markets with well intentioned but unneeded and probably harmful regulation.

This illustrates what I think will be the greatest long run loss to the EU from Brexit. To the continentals the EU is a political project anchored in avoidance of WWIII so worthy of accepting some economic costs. To the Brits the EU is an economic arrangement and that is exactly the UK’s contribution to the EU. Irritating as the Brits might be they played a crucial role in pushing back on the Brussels do-gooder tendency to regulate that which needs not be regulated. Absent the UK the EU will promulgate ever increasing amounts of unneeded and badly drafted regulatory mush that glob by glob will increasingly gum up the wheels of commerce.

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11 minutes ago, cms said:

 Facts are irrelevant to these people. Lioness is often more rational, but Wayne needs help.

Mmmm you got to remember Jack called me Nostradamus :) because I keep calling the  shots right, gosh to date, referendum result, tick, rise of the Brexit party, tick, rise of Boris, tick, total disarray of the ruling elite, tick, slide of Labour to the left, tick and a Conservative win ( got to admit it was bigger than I thought by about 50 seats ).

Gosh I must be rational and pragmatic about things. B)  or just maybe. I'm pretty middle of the road and you guys are just way out there, but one thing for sure, you can't call me irrational to get all those sequences right.

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22 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

free from abnormal curvature is not straight banana nor curved bananas as most bananas are curved and some are straight!

the only material question is who defines "abnormal" and that's always the case. 

The customs/produce inspectors asked to use their discretion, will apply it. And with out necessarily any nefarious intention, downgrade that which is unfamiliar. 

That's how non tariff trade barriers work, subjective specification, arbitrary dimensions or ratings that don't have safety or other function but do exclude competitors. Holding up inspection until the perishable items are no longer fresh... 

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1 hour ago, MiddayGun said:

Plenty of young people at the age of 25 have been working 9 years, on shit money struggling to afford housing, pretty sure they're more in touch with the realities of life today then pensioners who retired at 55 or earlier with two houses, have been out of work longer than they were ever in it but still think 'those millennials' are all just layabouts who have it easy. 

Ummm have you actually counted up these so called rich pensioners, there's a lot of media hype about them, but I don't know of any.

I do know a few millenials though who have done particularly well and now own property, on good wages, and have had  travel life experiences way beyond that of which I had had at their age. 

And for those old enough, can you remember your first mortgage interest rate, mine was 15.7%, what is it now, oh about 2.7%.

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8 minutes ago, KC375 said:

 

The whole bendy banana thing, or as actually written in the regs “free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers” illustrates the insanity on both sides of the EU – Brexit muddle.

The UK press, and in response the EU, have made an industry of EU myths. The intentional spreading of lies and false narrative to generate revenue is an expected business model if you publish novels. It is immoral if you position yourself as a member of the news media.

On the other hand 2,000 words used to define the attributes of marketable bananas, is well, just bananas. How much effort went into writing and promulgating the regulations? How much time goes into enforcing the regulation? Enforcement must be a nightmare – what % of spots are greater than 1 cm? How curved is abnormally curved? What is “natural colouration”? What is a “sufficient portion” of the crown. Enforcing these regulations must be an exercise in either fake work, or capricious bureaucratic over reach?

Was there really a societal need for these regulations? Who was suffering from poorly defined bananas?

This is a classic example of brussels felt need to regulate where a free market likely works better. A free market addresses these issues by people willingly making decisions and adjusting to the decisions of others.  What if people like “abnormally curved” bananas – you’ll not get your product in the EU. What happens to “abnormally curved” bananas – thanks to the EU they get thrown out. What about the option of offering “abnormally curved” bananas at a discount if the market prefers “straight bananas”

What exactly is an “abnormal curvature”....that is meaningless term. It is completely arbitrary and judgemental. It is begging for abuse,...for a little bribe I can agree that these bananas are “normally curved” no bribe and your produce is rejected....

I’m not saying there is corruption in banana curvature enforcement but it is bad practice to write regulations that put all the power in the arbitrary judgement of enforcers, that is the devils playground.

On one side of the engagement you have pathological liars who earn money by stirring up false outrage at over reach by the EU.

On the other side you have regulatory bodies with an overwhelming felt need to gum up free markets with well intentioned but unneeded and probably harmful regulation.

This illustrates what I think will be the greatest long run loss to the EU from Brexit. To the continentals the EU is a political project anchored in avoidance of WWIII so worthy of accepting some economic costs. To the Brits the EU is an economic arrangement and that is exactly the UK’s contribution to the EU. Irritating as the Brits might be they played a crucial role in pushing back on the Brussels do-gooder tendency to regulate that which needs not be regulated. Absent the UK the EU will promulgate ever increasing amounts of unneeded and badly drafted regulatory mush that glob by glob will increasingly gum up the wheels of commerce.

Sure it is a bit lengthy and not that well worded but it has probably been written by industry like most technical quality standards. The whole point of these is that there is a level playing field between all countries.

2 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

the only material question is who defines "abnormal" and that's always the case. 

The customs/produce inspectors asked to use their discretion, will apply it. And with out necessarily any nefarious intention, downgrade that which is unfamiliar. 

That's how non tariff trade barriers work, subjective specification, arbitrary dimensions or ratings that don't have safety or other function but do exclude competitors. Holding up inspection until the perishable items are no longer fresh... 

That's not how it works, it just let the importer refuse product that doesn't meet the standard. For a banana to be abnormally curved it has to be in a pretty bad shape as there are all kind of banana, these standards get reviewed on a regular basis, if it had been such a big deal, they would have removed this line.

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3 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

the only material question is who defines "abnormal" and that's always the case. 

The customs/produce inspectors asked to use their discretion, will apply it. And with out necessarily any nefarious intention, downgrade that which is unfamiliar. 

That's how non tariff trade barriers work, subjective specification, arbitrary dimensions or ratings that don't have safety or other function but do exclude competitors. Holding up inspection until the perishable items are no longer fresh... 

Non tariff barriers are an insidious armament in trade wars. If you want to use nonmarket mechanisms to reduce imports or shift trade from one counter party to another things like capricious grading of perishables has particular power.  The unfavoured exporter supplies the same product as was accepted last month but suddenly finds their bananas are abnormally curved and contain insufficient crown (insufficient for what?) and are not “normally” coloured (what pantone number are you using for “normal”).

Now what is the exporter to do? How marketable are those bananas after they are returned or sent to another market? The exporter has to accept the bananas are now a “Class II” product. The exporter likely loses money shipping international a “Class II” product and would not have shipped if they had known in advance. So what is the exporter to do next month? Just simply don’t send to the EU. Trade skirmish won by the EU, lost by the farmer trying to sell to the EU and probably lost by the EU consumers whose options have been limited.

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Quote

Absent the UK the EU will promulgate ever increasing amounts of unneeded and badly drafted regulatory mush that glob by glob will increasingly gum up the wheels of commerce.

And that's your take away Money Quote: 

Toss in the unanimity requirements at the various hierarchical levels of the political and you have a turgid mess that has multiple "cold dead hands" around the throat of the body politic.

They will stifle innovation, (already well in progress)

then erect barriers to protect non competitive internal industries (what European Semiconductor/Computer industry) 

 

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11 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Sure it is a bit lengthy and not that well worded but it has probably been written by industry like most technical quality standards. The whole point of these is that there is a level playing field between all countries.

That's not how it works, it just let the importer refuse product that doesn't meet the standard. For a banana to be abnormally curved it has to be in a pretty bad shape as there are all kind of banana, these standards get reviewed on a regular basis, if it had been such a big deal, they would have removed this line.

What standards? These "standards" are opinions not facts.

"normal colouring" is meaningless. "normal colouring" as defined as falling between pantone 100 and 105c would be a standard - maybe not a good standard but one that could be aplied without caprice.

"abnormal curvature" is also an opinion. A standard would be someting like when placed against a flat plane the maximum gap is no less than x% or no more than y% of the length or the gap "falls within two standard deviations of the average" or... not saying these are good standards but they are standards that are not opinions.

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You have no idea what is going on in banana land, and this was not asked due to politicians or bureaucrats.
It was asked by the free market industry in Europe themselves.
To prevent a huge amount of waste of unsellable or infected fruits.
 

The standards themselves are pretty much directly copied over from the Codex Alimentarius, something under the general control of the Food and Agriculture Organization (part of the UN) and the World Health Organization (similarly). That, in turn is really a general collection of the various industry norms and standards used around the world. Thus, what we're calling Class 1, Extra and so on here with reference to bananas are the ways in which wholesalers, importers and so on of bananas have been marking their products over the decades. You can actually tell how old these rules are as Gros Michel hasn't really been a part of the banana trade since the 1960s when it was replaced with various Cavendish cultivars.

Note what has happened here: Time honored practice, something useful to the people in the trade, has now been translated into the law of the land.

You can only discuss if putting it into law is handy or not. For some yes, for some no.
But bottom line there is nothing changed since the 1960's. So it is all humbug, a myth and ridiculousness.

 

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Overall you only can conclude that the UK are in for a roaring 20's.

I have a good one on fish too, some in the industry want that fresh caught fish is not a part of the trade deal, lets battle it out under UN rules.
As the UN say, migrant fish (bloody eu fish coming to UK waters, passport please.) should be shared between the countries waters were the fish migrates in..
So no UK patrol can stop a Dutch French Irish  etc fishing boat, they only can check catch and complain to the UN if they fish to much. As they fish on migrant fish.
UK territorial waters is only 12 miles, On the rest of the zone they have special rights as dictated by the UN. Mostly a right on what is under the bottom, gas oil etc, but not on migratory fish. The moment the uK starts to confiscate EU fishing boats, wait for the French Belgian and Dutch fisher man to block harbours for traffic to the UK. They are hard nosed people.

In the next 10 years a lot of people will start to understand how the world works, and what place the UK really has. Let the experiment start...

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The banana saga, as usual blames Brussels (not the sprouts which should be blamed for existing), whereas the truth tends to be found elsewhere. Bananas like boats involve producers, retailers, end users and a range of other intermediaries and ancillary trades. Who seeks standards or regulations? Well, it can be any of the above. There are plenty of consumer driven standards, but there are also many driven by the professionals in the trade who want to know what standards are accepted and what are not.

I was involved in the RCD from its earliest origins. Industry driven, common standards. The motivations were several, and here you may find grounds to grumble. Of course consumer protection is important, to both the consumer and the trade, and common standards avoid multiple hoops to jump through to market your product across the community - in this case, for the present, 28 nation states. The grey area is where protectionism creeps in. The desire to prevent or to hinder imports from outside the community can weigh in the formulation. Frankly I am not a banana expert, but I can say that, overall, the RCD for the marine industry has been largely non-protectionist, providing clear standards for imports from third countries, in most cases making the foreign producer's life more straightforward, especially when the CE mark standard is widely accepted as sound.

Brussels did not invent or impose the RCD. We asked the civil servants there to get to work for us, and after a long process of consultation, debate, and negotiation, we arrived at what was warmly welcomed across the EU, by the industry, the consumer, associations, federations ....

There are no doubt too many words in many texts, a bit like clean software writing - easy to want and hard to achieve.

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42 minutes ago, LeoV said:

You have no idea what is going on in banana land, and this was not asked due to politicians or bureaucrats.
It was asked by the free market industry in Europe themselves.
To prevent a huge amount of waste of unsellable or infected fruits.
 

The standards themselves are pretty much directly copied over from the Codex Alimentarius, something under the general control of the Food and Agriculture Organization (part of the UN) and the World Health Organization (similarly). That, in turn is really a general collection of the various industry norms and standards used around the world. Thus, what we're calling Class 1, Extra and so on here with reference to bananas are the ways in which wholesalers, importers and so on of bananas have been marking their products over the decades. You can actually tell how old these rules are as Gros Michel hasn't really been a part of the banana trade since the 1960s when it was replaced with various Cavendish cultivars.

Note what has happened here: Time honored practice, something useful to the people in the trade, has now been translated into the law of the land.

You can only discuss if putting it into law is handy or not. For some yes, for some no.
But bottom line there is nothing changed since the 1960's. So it is all humbug, a myth and ridiculousness.

 

 

2 minutes ago, cms said:

The banana saga, as usual blames Brussels (not the sprouts which should be blamed for existing), whereas the truth tends to be found elsewhere. Bananas like boats involve producers, retailers, end users and a range of other intermediaries and ancillary trades. Who seeks standards or regulations? Well, it can be any of the above. There are plenty of consumer driven standards, but there are also many driven by the professionals in the trade who want to know what standards are accepted and what are not.

I was involved in the RCD from its earliest origins. Industry driven, common standards. The motivations were several, and here you may find grounds to grumble. Of course consumer protection is important, to both the consumer and the trade, and common standards avoid multiple hoops to jump through to market your product across the community - in this case, for the present, 28 nation states. The grey area is where protectionism creeps in. The desire to prevent or to hinder imports from outside the community can weigh in the formulation. Frankly I am not a banana expert, but I can say that, overall, the RCD for the marine industry has been largely non-protectionist, providing clear standards for imports from third countries, in most cases making the foreign producer's life more straightforward, especially when the CE mark standard is widely accepted as sound.

Brussels did not invent or impose the RCD. We asked the civil servants there to get to work for us, and after a long process of consultation, debate, and negotiation, we arrived at what was warmly welcomed across the EU, by the industry, the consumer, associations, federations ....

There are no doubt too many words in many texts, a bit like clean software writing - easy to want and hard to achieve.

Leo and cms you should apply for jobs with the EU communications department. In five hundred words the two of you do a better job defending EU regulatory process than mass of info linked to the EU Myths web site.

That in itself is a pretty damming observation about the effectiveness of EU bureaucracy.

The EU Myths site, curated and maintained over a number of years does somewhat dispel the most obvious fabrications of the UK press. However anyone who follows through to the actual regs (absent the context you provide) is faced by a seeming mass of atrociously written and what often seem unneeded rules.

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I did read the banana stuff, and for an international trade rule, it is short, to the point, and even a bit flexible. And that for a billion dollar trade.
And yes, I managed export to the US, and did go through a (EU sponsored) special education class for small im/exporters to understand the paperwork/rules etc.
Export papers (both ways) were dead easy.
Even for pre installed electronics on board. Though we did not install a VHF because of different rules if I remember correctly.
In short; hard for stuff that can rot, carry disease or is of military significance.

The EU is in need for better pr people, that is for sure, but they have only a very small number of bureaucrats. Not  enough it seems for a good PR :)
 

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1 hour ago, LeoV said:

you can only discuss if putting it into law is handy or not. For some yes, for some no.
But bottom line there is nothing changed since the 1960's. So it is all humbug, a myth and ridiculousness

Funny the relevant dates were 1994 and 2008, that's a bit later than the 60's. Perhaps the continent had already succumbed back in the 60's I wasn't paying much attention to Europe at that time, other than to realize that DeGaulle was notable for his physical height and the height of his arrogance. 

Agreed on the ridiculousness. and the "myth" aspect is particularly interesting, as the government chooses to expend resources combating it, which lends credence to the validity, if it were truly humbug, then you simply ignore it.

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19 minutes ago, LeoV said:

but they have only a very small number of bureaucrats. Not  enough it seems for a good PR :)

They have many layers of "Eurocrats";  perhaps insufficient for "a good PR" but that's mostly the combination of a poor product, institutional arrogance and schlerotic incompetance, due to lack of any correcting factors. the 90-100k people who actually are directly employed by the EU government (not including those who are contractors etc) don't seem to be adding much value to the economy, but I guess if you count that keeping Germany from beating up France militarily for a 4th time in less than a century: (Franco Prussian 1870, WW1, WW2...) against the costs of economic development it's something. 

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2 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

They have many layers of "Eurocrats";  perhaps insufficient for "a good PR" but that's mostly the combination of a poor product, institutional arrogance and schlerotic incompetance, due to lack of any correcting factors. the 90-100k people who actually are directly employed by the EU government (not including those who are contractors etc) don't seem to be adding much value to the economy, but I guess if you count that keeping Germany from beating up France militarily for a 4th time in less than a century: (Franco Prussian 1870, WW1, WW2...) against the costs of economic development it's something. 

Oï, they didn't beat us during WW1

As for EU civil servants, to put this into perspective there are about 2.8millions civil servants employed by USA federal civil service. So EU is pretty lightweight on this front.

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14 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Funny the relevant dates

You can not argue with people fixated with their personal truth.. You can PR what you want, they will never change their belief. As your last sentence indicates.
There are a lot of politicians in the UK knowing a lot that has been told is utter BS.
The only way to fight that is with more BS, till people start to realize even that is BS.
Probably they will even tell more BS, I am curious where the breaking point is in modern times, with social medium as it is.
I do not know.

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If Popper wrote about banana Brexit, what would he say?

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance toward bent bananas: Unlimited bent banana tolerance may lead to the disappearance of bent bananas. If we extend unlimited bent banana tolerance even to those who are intolerant toward bent bananas, if we are not prepared to defend a bent banana tolerant society against the onslaught of the bent banana intolerant, then the bent banana tolerant will be destroyed, and bent banana tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of bent banana intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, complete suppression of bent banana discussion would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all those intolerant of bent bananas; as they may forbid their followers to buy bent bananas, because buying them is deceptive, and teach them to forbid others from buying bent bananas by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of bent banana tolerance, the right not to tolerate the bent banana intolerant.

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16 minutes ago, LeoV said:

You can not argue with people fixated with their personal truth.. You can PR what you want, they will never change their belief. As your last sentence indicates.
There are a lot of politicians in the UK knowing a lot that has been told is utter BS.
The only way to fight that is with more BS, till people start to realize even that is BS.
Probably they will even tell more BS, I am curious where the breaking point is in modern times, with social medium as it is.
I do not know.

There are ways. In my view Erikson's pattern interrupt is of interest, though as you point out belief systems are curious and often resilient.

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2 hours ago, KC375 said:

What standards? These "standards" are opinions not facts.

"normal colouring" is meaningless. "normal colouring" as defined as falling between pantone 100 and 105c would be a standard - maybe not a good standard but one that could be aplied without caprice.

"abnormal curvature" is also an opinion. A standard would be someting like when placed against a flat plane the maximum gap is no less than x% or no more than y% of the length or the gap "falls within two standard deviations of the average" or... not saying these are good standards but they are standards that are not opinions.

OK, so exporter say my bananas don't have an abnormal curvature, importer say yes they do. What happens? Let's say that they are both really hard nosed and can't find an agreement, it ends up in front of a commercial court or some kind of arbitration court. Each side picks his expert, each banana expert writes a report about banana abnormal curvature and how normal/abnormal the shipment was and finally the court nominates another expert who says which side has the most credible story.

That is a bloody expensive process so in practice people avoid shipping to the common market bananas which don't look like banana... simple! If somebody happens to have quantities of odd shaped bananas, he can always put them on the market as "Frankenstein bananas", nobody has been fouled and the odd bananas got sold assuming that consumers don't mind bananas shaped like doughnuts or whatever.... simple again!

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30 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

OK, so exporter say my bananas don't have an abnormal curvature, importer say yes they do. What happens? Let's say that they are both really hard nosed and can't find an agreement, it ends up in front of a commercial court or some kind of arbitration court. Each side picks his expert, each banana expert writes a report about banana abnormal curvature and how normal/abnormal the shipment was and finally the court nominates another expert who says which side has the most credible story.

That is a bloody expensive process so in practice people avoid shipping to the common market bananas which don't look like banana... simple! If somebody happens to have quantities of odd shaped bananas, he can always put them on the market as "Frankenstein bananas", nobody has been fouled and the odd bananas got sold assuming that consumers don't mind bananas shaped like doughnuts or whatever.... simple again!

Actually .... your first paragraph is what gets people ranting. The very idea that someone imposes standards and everyone lands up in court.

I know the point you are making, but you are talking about a commercial issue where Joe Public just says "what euro shit next".

Standards are aimed at avoiding court cases, like you go on to say.

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38 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

What happens?

They end up in banana cake, yoghurt or whatever. And not in court. To expensive.

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Exactly.  If you know about bananas, you will also know that there are large numbers of the crop that are sold as industrial product rather than consumer product.  The market prices the best consumer product higher than the poorest consumer product and higher than the industrial product.  All the standards do is to create a reasonable set of bands within which such products can be graded and priced.  This allows for more rational pricing - e.g. to choose cheaper products that taste the same.  In the absence of standards as such there is a possibility of moral hazard that would have a industrial product being priced to consumers as a high quality consumer product, and the opposite hazard that would have producers having to take industrial pricing for high quality consumer product.  

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3 hours ago, cms said:

Brussels did not invent or impose the RCD. We asked the civil servants there to get to work for us, and after a long process of consultation, debate, and negotiation, we arrived at what was warmly welcomed across the EU, by the industry, the consumer, associations, federations

Generally true, while german boatbuilders hated the system in the beginning, as there were no rules there, except that boats only may have been build by well trained master boatbuilders, who of course used GL standards, and have a proper education to be able to design and build safe boats. I don't know the history of french boatbuilding, but I believe all boats had to be checked under french rules by "affair maritime", which meant that it was incredible difficult for german boatbuilders to sell boats in france. RCD was meant to remove trade barriers, by finding a compromise between the very strict systems and the very free systems by implementing a self certificating CE system. Is that more or less right CMS? What was the french history? 

Most EU rules are meant to reduce trade barriers. 

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21 hours ago, cms said:

Help. Someone tell me how to ignore a poster, please. Up to now Wayne made me pity him and other trolls I just got used to skipping past, but this is too much.

If you want a really good laugh, have a look at his LinkedIn profile. I know that wankfest is all about taking yourself up but The Brucester  takes it to a new level. He may be a tedious, man child, wanker, but he hits a bait like a mangrove jack. 

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38 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

very free systems by implementing a self certificating CE system.

One issue in selling into the EU was dealing with complaints lodged by competitors. While there were few penalties of great consequence, dealing with the issues and answering to the authorities took up a lot of time. (Maybe with some sectors the competition is more intense, so this is a greater issue.)

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Don't know, never heard about that. In my opinion RCD has a lot of advantages. These rules were originally meant to remove trade barrieres within Europe. But of course makes life easier for 3rd country builders as well, as they only have to deal with one set of rules and not 28 different ones. It makes boating safer, boat designers and builders have only one set of rules that cover almost anything. 

After Brexit the UK can diverge largely from EU rules for boatbuilding. The only thing that happens then, is that british boatbuilders may not sell to EU anymore. Good luck. 

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20 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

The word "pitch" here is very apt.

The Johnson Government are going to be in full time marketing mode for next 5 years spending tens of millions telling everyone via glossy productions with heart pulling sound tracks that make you tack the Union Jack to the chimney, of how great things are going and the future is just fuckin rosy. 

That is a lot easier that doing real life governing. Even the mundane like this Northern Hotline shit, is mutton dressed up as lamb....each MP already has the phone number of all other MP's.

 

9 hours ago, mad said:

Ken Clarke has warned Boris Johnson he must “stop campaigning and get on with governing”, condemning the prime minister for seemingly having no detailed plans for a final Brexit deal, or for other vital issues such as social care.

The veteran former Conservative MP, who stepped down from parliament at the election having been stripped of the Tory whip shortly beforehand, said Johnson should replace advisers such as Dominic Cummings with people who were able to govern.

Clarke said that while Johnson’s 80-strong majority meant he was able to run the country more or less as he chose, Clarke told BBC Radio 5 he had seen few signs yet of any coherent policy programme.

“Governing the country is more than going around saying, ‘Oooh, 2020 is going to be a golden year, and we’re going to be global Britain,’” he said. “At the moment we’ve got a stagnant, fragile economy, an angry, discontented population. It’s a very dangerous world out there in many, many ways.”

Clarke said Johnson’s policy vagueness was particularly acute on Brexit: “I could never get out of Boris – and nobody so far could get out of Boris – what he has in mind for the eventual deal. To say they’re generalities is an understatement.

Starting to sound like 5 years of Trump style leadership coming up!1

These two posters have nailed it :-)

That is an insult to Trump who at least has policies.

Abandon ship while you can...the world has a new Greece in waiting.

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42 minutes ago, KC375 said:

Lot's of sympathy for foreign far right parties. Would they even support Hitler if he were still alive? This is what dw.de writes about this:

Two former Catalan separatist leaders, Carles Puigdemont and Toni Comin, will be allowed to take up their seats in the EU Parliament. A Spanish court had disqualified them despite their election in May.

The fugitive former Catalan separatist leader Carles Puigdemont and former Catalan Health Minister Toni Comin can take up their seats as European lawmakers, the EU's top court ruled Friday, just a day after ruling the same for another jailed separatist.

POLITICS | 30.04.2019

Carles Puigdemont speaks during a press conference in Brussels (Getty Images/AFP/T. Roge)

Spain's judiciary disqualified Puigdemont and Comin from taking up their seats in the EU Parliament due to their role in organizing an unauthorized independence referendum in 2017 — despite the fact that they won elections for the positions in May.

Read more: Catalan protesters: 'We want to make a point'

But on Friday, the European Court of Justice (ECJ) annulled the Spanish government's claim that "the applicants were not officially declared as elected" and referred the matter back to the General Court to be re-examined. This means the pair have received temporary accreditation as EU lawmakers

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2 hours ago, jgh66 said:

Generally true, while german boatbuilders hated the system in the beginning, as there were no rules there, except that boats only may have been build by well trained master boatbuilders, who of course used GL standards, and have a proper education to be able to design and build safe boats. I don't know the history of french boatbuilding, but I believe all boats had to be checked under french rules by "affair maritime", which meant that it was incredible difficult for german boatbuilders to sell boats in france. RCD was meant to remove trade barriers, by finding a compromise between the very strict systems and the very free systems by implementing a self certificating CE system. Is that more or less right CMS? What was the french history? 

Most EU rules are meant to reduce trade barriers. 

When I am awake again, I will do a quick fly by of the old - Lloyds Register, Bureau Veritas, Germanischer Lloyd etc, and the different humiliation procedures around Europe. The standards bodies still exist, but there is a common basic humiliation standard and process now. I have scars....

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Just got off a plane and got around to catching up on two UTubers mid flight. 

THIS IS FUCKING BIZZARE.

IF THIS HAD GONE TO AIR B4 POLLING DAY JOHNSON WOULD HAVE BEEN SMASHED -  THE CORBYNISTERS  LICKING THEIR LIPS & SENT THE BLAIRITES & LIB DEMS HIDING IN SHAME.

- ITV refused to air this pre polling day.and any advertisements for it. Backstory of bullshit to why it was hidden from view.

- It was made outside normal channels including being jointly funded by Australia's 2nd public broadcaster SBS.

- A must watch to get an idea of how fucked UK politics is on both sides for over a decade and bonafide evidence the average UK voter is a complete dipshit with absolutely no idea what is going on in Westminister and believes only propaganda generated in the MSM by the Government of the day. No wonder Johnson is doing what he is doing. In fact who can blame him.

 

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^^^^^ Never been a great fan of some of the Pilchard's stuff however when he nails one he nails it like this one. Put this beside the one he did on Indonesia and East Timor - Bilbao for those that know.

This a post airing piece to the above that fills in some very important gaps PLUS excellent post election overview.

 

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5 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Oï, they didn't beat us during WW1

 

"Beat up" as in Verdun, not beaten as in Vichy. 

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11 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Something you guys on this forum thread really underestimate, the core UK voter is as stubborn as a mule, once they make up their minds, its almost improbable for them to reverse that decision, something the media, the London bubble and those who get all their information from the internet, just can't understand.

Well actually they understand a lot. You and those sympathetic will be thinking likewise as your foraging beside the road for food.

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1 minute ago, LeoV said:

Just stop reading UK newspapers like this about EU business, they are out of their minds.

Yep. Most are just propaganda outlets for the government of the day.

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1 minute ago, LeoV said:

Just stop reading UK newspapers like this about EU business, they are out of their minds.

 

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1 hour ago, jgh66 said:

It makes boating safer, boat designers and builders have only one set of rules that cover almost anything. 

the shipbuilding world has done ok with LLoyds, Det Norsk Veritas-GL, Bureau Veritas and ABS... 

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7 hours ago, Sea warrior said:

Only an idiot would deny that generally speaking, as people get older they get wiser and with the gained knowledge and  experience, they change their minds on subjects and issues.

At least the intelligent ones will which leaves you lot at a disadvantage.

You should check up on the statistics for dementia. BTW the average start age is mid 40's.

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3 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

the shipbuilding world has done ok with LLoyds, Det Norsk Veritas-GL, Bureau Veritas and ABS... 

Classification societies not standards bodies.

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5 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

the shipbuilding world has done ok with LLoyds, Det Norsk Veritas-GL, Bureau Veritas and ABS... 

and they still do ok. We are talking about small craft, not ship building or commercial craft.

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21 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

and they still do ok. We are talking about small craft, not ship building or commercial craft.

 

22 minutes ago, cms said:

Classification societies not standards bodies.

The need to have a pan-european anything only makes sense if it replaces a higher cost/lower effectiveness system of national specifications. That and the common currency is one of the few good things to come out of the EU.

Of course thats if good means that boats are built to the same specifications from the Baltic and North Sea to the Mediterranean and inland lakes, regardless of local practices, materials and sea states. In regards to Ships, that are expected to travel anywhere in the world, the classification societies that inspect and set standards for construction as well as design are convergent on their requirements. 

 

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