bosundog

Pay to play - amateur racing

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2 minutes ago, Svanen said:

I have no problem with a boat owner charging for such cost recoveries: provided that they and their yacht are appropriately licensed, equipped and insured for commercial operations. ‘cause legally, that’s they are doing (even if they make no profit).

A sailing team isn’t a commercial operation. 

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6 hours ago, fastyacht said:

In the U.S. ...

If you are in the USA pay close attention to US laws, and maintain good insurance as it is a country in love with litigation and liability.

Fortunately most of the world is not the US and we can take more reasoned approaches - the degree of caution and KYA will depend on local jurisdiction.

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5 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

A sailing team isn’t a commercial operation. 

do you have people aboard? yes. Are they paying to be there? yes. That is a fare paying passenger and unless you have USCG cert and a licensed captain then you're breaking the law. And with a standard boat policy the insurance will exclude any losses that happen when there are fare paying passengers aboard. (in the US at least)

Call it a donation or a gift, but you cant charge people to sail aboard your boat without the possibility of this being a problem. 

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As a crew I am very happy that there is more demand for my services than supply of fellow sailors. I can get a ride any weekend and often have to turn down multiple skippers each week, not that I am every happy to do that as I know they struggle sometimes to find regular crew. There is no way in this situation that I would ever have to pay to sail... in fact one skipper has offered to pay my club membership if I agree to sail exclusively on his boat all summer. 

I just figure it is a cost of being a boat owner, one that a prospective skipper should be aware of before buying a racing sailboat. If it ever reversed I think I'd find another way of spending my weekends.

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4 minutes ago, Mark Set said:

do you have people aboard? yes. Are they paying to be there? yes. That is a fare paying passenger and unless you have USCG cert and a licensed captain then you're breaking the law. And with a standard boat policy the insurance will exclude any losses that happen when there are fare paying passengers aboard. (in the US at least)

Call it a donation or a gift, but you cant charge people to sail aboard your boat without the possibility of this being a problem. 

I’m so happy I’m not in the US ;) 

Edit: we don’t pay to be on that particular boat as such. As a team, we can race other boats if we want to. The definition of a commercial vessel is that some owner operates it as a way to generate income - which is clearly not our case. 

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6 minutes ago, fprintf said:

As a crew I am very happy that there is more demand for my services than supply of fellow sailors. I can get a ride any weekend and often have to turn down multiple skippers each week, not that I am every happy to do that as I know they struggle sometimes to find regular crew. There is no way in this situation that I would ever have to pay to sail... in fact one skipper has offered to pay my club membership if I agree to sail exclusively on his boat all summer. 

I just figure it is a cost of being a boat owner, one that a prospective skipper should be aware of before buying a racing sailboat. If it ever reversed I think I'd find another way of spending my weekends.

I could also get a ride any weekend and not pay anything. But to be part of a regular crew and get more consistency, we pay. And we have no problem with having guest crew, they never pay. 

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5 hours ago, fastyacht said:

In normal sailing practice it is doubtfully any different. But sailing on a friend's boat is not a "sports team." I have never signed a contract to sail with a friend. As a crew I've bought sandwiches, I've more often had them bought for me. I've bought sandwiches as a skipper...I've done ocean races--no contracts. I've put in effort helping a friend fix up a boat. I've sailed the boat, with no contracts. No direct expectations but surely indirectly so. But this topic became interesting because of the "quid pro quo" (popular term du jour) implied. That's where the American's spidey senses come alive and say, whoah--is this different? How?

There are a LOT of fractional ownership partners racing sailboats. They do it as many ways as there are people. Sometimes they end in spectacularly messy fashion. The "lawyerliness" in the U.S. is not all bad. Some of it is simply being well-informed, straightforward and honest so that nobody gets taken aback and surprised. The same reason we write contracts when we do business: what are expectations, what are responsibilities, how do we resolve disputes?

Organisations (as opposed to individuals) such as sports teams, have a corporate responsibility and liability and resources at stake. A team is a corporate body, even if it is rather informally structured. Every junior team in the part of the U.S. that I am in, has some corporate structure. Even applies to junior fleet activities of sailing clubs, school sailing teams etc.

In the US (and probably in other places) a bunch of things happen in terms of liability, skipper and boat requirements etc, when people pay to be onboard a boat. The USCG makes clear a voluntary sharing of expenses is not paying to be onboard BUT it has to be VOLUNTARY. You can NOT have a crew meeting up front and say it will be $800. Crew can have a meeting after and agree among themselves that it cost $4,000 for the season and there are five of use so let’s each contribute $800 if you are up for that.

I think there are many “right” answers to the question of sharing expenses and the answer may have to vary.

It seems you have a few things to consider.

Supply and demand:

·          a limited pool of really talented crew, a large pool of wanabe winning boat owners...crew start getting their expenses covered and more

·         Lots of enthusiastic sailors (healthy junior club, a couple of universities in a small town, and some ....) and a limited number of good racing boats with solid skippers you get a couple of hot shot kids, a few older folks who don’t want to own but contribute, and a skipper who covers the fixed costs plus a bit.

Local Laws and insurance coverage:

a few $800 contributions seems not much if it puts you at risk of losing your home.

The nature the team/crew

are you making a commitment for a season or more and do you want to operate on a collegial basis or is this a boat run by the owner at his pleasure.

 

I’ve been in relationships that ranged from as I got older:

As a teen I’d do anything to sail on a fun competitive boat as long as I didn’t have to open my wallet.

In my early twenties – I voluntarily (offered up front) to pay a quarter of a seasons expenses racing on a peer's boat – thank god he bought the boat I couldn’t.

A multi party partnership (drafted by a partner in the boat and a partner in a top law firm) that owned and campaigned a boat.

My boat, I pay, recruit a team of hot shot juniors and college sailors – who have fun, go for free, get to use the boat including in regattas I can’t make...and I feel twenty years younger and pick up some pickle dishes and mugs I probably didn’t deserve.

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1 hour ago, Starboard!! said:

OceanRacers.net runs "Hermes", a Pogo 12.5 and takes this approach, selling spots for big offshore races. They coach you too though, so it's more than just a race spot. Their boat is registered in Canada though, which prob helps avoid USCG rules.

Thanks man, I checked them out and it seems like what I'm looking for!

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25 minutes ago, Svanen said:

I have no problem with a boat owner charging for such cost recoveries: provided that they and their yacht are appropriately licensed, equipped and insured for commercial operations. ‘cause legally, that’s they are doing (even if they make no profit).

It's much easier to be appropriately licensed, equipped and insured in a country that doesn't require these things: Where it's not considered a commercial operation and no license is needed. Where the boat owner will no doubt insure the boat through choice but liability insurance is very cheap and unconstraining (the case in countries where it's extremely unusual for anyone to sue).  the equipment isn't mandated, so the owner and team just need to agree what's appropriate for them...

 Doesn't help the OP, though... :-(

Cheers,

               W.

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47 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

A sailing team isn’t a commercial operation. 

If the members of that team are paying for the privilege (beyond the reasonable costs of whatever food and drink they consume) then the USCG, the MCA and Transport Canada would consider that to be a commercial operation.

I have no idea what the applicable laws - if any - are in Norway.

3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Besides for all that, I do NOT need someone telling me what to do with MY boat like they are a part owner or something.

If the owner is paying for everything, he or she definitely gets to call all the shots. And enjoy the glory, such as it is, of being the skipper.

Conversely, if crew members are making a significant financial contribution then they should definitely expect to have significant input into most of the decisions; whilst bearing in mind that a vessel is not a democracy and the skipper always has the final word.

1 hour ago, Starboard!! said:

OceanRacers.net runs "Hermes", a Pogo 12.5 and takes this approach, selling spots for big offshore races. They coach you too though, so it's more than just a race spot. Their boat is registered in Canada though, which prob helps avoid USCG rules.

Actually, the relevant Canadian laws are substantially less flexible than USCG regulations.

I do not know the details of Ocean Racers but suspect that they are non-compliant with the Canada Shipping Act and are simply getting away with it (helped by the fact that the events they sell places for take place far away from Canadian waters and so are ‘flying under the radar’). Certainly, there is no indication on their website that either of the co-skippers holds a Transport Canada master’s CoC, or that Hermes is commercially registered and equipped.

The above is mere speculation. Perhaps Morgan Watson or some other knowledgeable representative will read this thread and take the time to provide a detailed explanation of how Ocean Racers actually operate. 

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For the record I am a boat owner and have never asked any crew to put their hands in their pockets to sail or to buy any equipment or take time to help with maintenance. All they needs was their own soft shoes,sailing gloves and foul weather gear.

I also used to sail regularly with a pair of much older guys who even gave me the spare key to their boat with the only instruction being 'Don't break it'.

Having said that I see nothing wrong with crew being expected to pay for their own accommodation if at a regatta or chip in for the beer, sandwiches and other consumables while sailing. There are some owners who just expect people to rock up and sail with all that sort of thing provided.

I know people who make much of their living from Race Charter or - as is happening right now -  fly half way round the world to charter a Bennyslow 40.7 in China Cup

On the other hand people don't baulk at paying to go to Disney Land, see the latest movie or go on holiday or other ways of spending their leisure time in a fun and exciting way

In some ways it is a matter of economics. The bigger the boat the bigger the running costs especially when a campaign starts to get serious or long distance.

There are so many levels to our sport and ways for people to enjoy it from local club dinghy racing where a couple of mates share costs on a small dinghy or keelboat all the way through to the other end where they are paid to crew on a supermaxi or a Volvo Campaign.

It is up to the individual how they spend their cash, either as the owner or the crew. 

Any owner that DOES take cash from crew needs to be mindful of the extra legal, legislative and insurance ramifications of doing so. It completely changes the dynamic. 

A case of "you pay your money and make your choice" - or not, as the case may be.

SS

 

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7 hours ago, Grrr... said:

There's a right way and a wrong way to do this.

The 'right' way is to have a crew party, at the boat, at the start of the season before the boat is in the water.  The owner brings beer, and barbecue.  The crews brings themselves and the willingness to work.  The boat gets washed, painted, waxed, rigged, cleaned out in the process.  At the end of the season, have a wrap-up party and do the same thing.  Sails all get removed and rolled, boat cleaned, bottom power-washed.

You don't fucking charge people to race.  You have them put in the sweat equity while having a good time.  Before each race you make sure they get there early enough to wash down the boat, top and sides.  If the interior is getting bad, shopvac it.  I think any regular crew and group of friends shouldn't have a problem with this.  But $800 to race?  Hell.  No.  

I grew up racing and the only time I was asked for money is when we were trailering teh boat half way across the country.  That was to help pay for gas and hotel.

^ this. 

(Seems like I am going to buy a small race boat next spring. My usual crew offered shared ownership, but I rather wanted Full Kontrol. Crew understood. Instead, they offered to help with rigging, cleaning, small repairs and bottom jobs... Right!  Crew consists of 50somethings with families and careers, so essentially they offered to pay other people to do these jobs. Spin trimmer even offered to buy a better spinnaker! Hey, I’m ok with that!) 

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Good crew is hard to find, they usually have their choice of boats to go play on.  

And yes, I've heard the figure for outfitting a boat for ocean racing can cost $10-20K, however that's only if you have a boat that's not already set up for it.  Wear and tear is part of boat ownership.  I can completely understand work parties, but requesting payment just doesn't seem right, unless you're a captain hiring berths out, or getting a charter together.

Here's an example from the Ocean Racers website

Looking for the right team to join us! Full team race charter for 2020 BVI Spring Regatta available - $15K Boat Show special valid until end of the month. All inclusive: Pro coach, 6-8 crew, accommodations onboard, training and all race fees.

So if you have a group that really wants to do something like this, there are options. 

If an owner really wants to do a race that is their decision, and finances should be part of that decision, as well as the condition/preparedness of their boat, along with the crew. 

And as far as personal safety gear goes, I believe in having your own.   I know my gear, am comfortable in it, have practiced with it etc.  but that is me.  It took a few years to get everything set, so in years past I have borrowed stuff, and now I have no problem loaning mine out. 

 

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Man, sometimes I am so grateful to live in a country that a) is European and b) still uses cash to pay for things. 

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55 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

I’m so happy I’m not in the US ;) 

Edit: we don’t pay to be on that particular boat as such. As a team, we can race other boats if we want to. The definition of a commercial vessel is that some owner operates it as a way to generate income - which is clearly not our case. 

If you and your friends were in Annapolis and were:

1. Reasonably competent, i.e. beyond the dropping winch handles overboard and hoisting the chute sideways phase

2. Able to consistently show up for all the races

You would have your pick of some of the best boats. You would be racing all you could stand and then some.

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3 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

If you and your friends were in Annapolis and were:

1. Reasonably competent, i.e. beyond the dropping winch handles overboard and hoisting the chute sideways phase

2. Able to consistently show up for all the races

You would have your pick of some of the best boats. You would be racing all you could stand and then some.

And be 8000 crowns richer.

I'm sorry, but paying 800 for the "privilege" of being rail meat is being taken--Norge or no Norge.

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Look, gang,  the Coast Guard isn't going to be hanging around the marina trying to catch you .  When this comes up (illegal charters) is typically when someone takes out strangers for money, and the rule-following charter operators rightly complain about it to the local Coast Guard marine inspectors. 

Or, when there's a casualty serious enough for Coast Guard to investigate, and they run across a pay-to-play program or an unlicensed uninspected charter scam going on.

 

(full disclosure:  Decades ago, in a galaxy not far away, I was a Coast Guard marine inspector)

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5 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

If you and your friends were in Annapolis and were: 

1. Reasonably competent, i.e. beyond the dropping winch handles overboard and hoisting the chute sideways phase 

2. Able to consistently show up for all the races 

You would have your pick of some of the best boats. You would be racing all you could stand and then some. 

I might pay $800 to sail with people I like & on a competitive boat that isn't skippered by an asshole.

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3 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

And be 8000 crowns richer.

I'm sorry, but paying 800 for the "privilege" of being rail meat is being taken--Norge or no Norge.

I’m certainly not railmeat ;) 

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3 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

I’m certainly not railmeat ;) 

LOL if you get to make race decisions, call tactics, steer for significant amounts of time, I would agree with you. If you are just trimming sails, not so much. LOL.

But seriously--what percentage of sailors in your regattas that you are sailing, are paying the owner for the privilege of sailing? Is this 1 out of 20 boats? 10 out of 20? 19 out of 20?

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8 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

If you and your friends were in Annapolis and were:

1. Reasonably competent, i.e. beyond the dropping winch handles overboard and hoisting the chute sideways phase

2. Able to consistently show up for all the races

You would have your pick of some of the best boats. You would be racing all you could stand and then some.

I believe I’m reasonably competent and my team is one of the best in my area. So they wouldn’t take on any idiot, but that has nothing to do with the payment. Even if we recruited a hot shot they’d pay the same. 
 

But again, drop-ins don’t pay. We accept that sometimes we need extra crew, no problem. 

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Just now, NORBowGirl said:

I believe I’m reasonably competent and my team is one of the best in my area. So they wouldn’t take on any idiot, but that has nothing to do with the payment. Even if we recruited a hot shot they’d pay the same. 
 

But again, drop-ins don’t pay. We accept that sometimes we need extra crew, no problem. 

So you'd pay someone in Annapolis to sail on his boat? Why would you do that?

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Just now, fastyacht said:

LOL if you get to make race decisions, call tactics, steer for significant amounts of time, I would agree with you. If you are just trimming sails, not so much. LOL.

But seriously--what percentage of sailors in your regattas that you are sailing, are paying the owner for the privilege of sailing? Is this 1 out of 20 boats? 10 out of 20? 19 out of 20?

You really call a trimmer rail meat? ;) 

I do pit at the moment. And I’m absolutely no servant, I have a high degree of autonomy, because I have a clue ;)   I don’t think any of us think that we pay the owner for the privilege of sailing. I pay for MY privilege of sailing with the team, I have a great time and learn lots. And together, we get better.  

Hm, I reckon at least 90% of teams, and by that I mean actually teams that plan a whole season, pay something. So let’s say 50%, since not all owners have regular crew. 

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9 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

So you'd pay someone in Annapolis to sail on his boat? Why would you do that?

Well, I’d adapt to the local culture and not be the only one paying.

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2 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

Well, I’d adapt to the local culture and not be the only one paying.

Here is how BowGirls skipper does it,

image.png.f21e33089d7ad072bcb146bba296a506.png

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1 minute ago, NORBowGirl said:

You really call a trimmer rail meat? ;) 

I do pit at the moment. And I’m absolutely no servant, I have a high degree of autonomy, because I have a clue ;)   I don’t think any of us think that we pay the owner for the privilege of sailing. I pay for MY privilege of sailing with the team, I have a great time and learn lots. And together, we get better.  

Hm, I reckon at least 90% of teams, and by that I mean actually teams that plan a whole season, pay something. So let’s say 50%, since not all owners have regular crew. 

Wow, that really is a different "culture."

Trimming, rail meat,sewer, pit, bow all the same. You are pulling strings getting  it done. You ain't calling the shots. But that's really beside the point. You have no ownership stake--and typically ownership gets you tactics and decisions (being skipper). I really scratch my head at this. But then again, where I am, if you show up with your skills, you might even be find yourself in a bidding war between owners to get you aboard! Just bass-ackwards. Mind boggling. Interesting. But like I've said before, not even legal here. Unless you are strictly voluntary (which you are not).

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4 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

Well, I’d adapt to the local culture and not be the only one paying.

If you  were paying in Annapolis, you would be somewhere in the reserve railmeat category haha.

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28 minutes ago, Starboard!! said:

I might pay $800 to sail with people I like & on a competitive boat that isn't skippered by an asshole.

Sounds like what I do ;) 

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    There was an old guy in the VI who was notoriously cheap and that extended to his race boat. He was a pretty good skipper and had been around forever but would halfway through a race would ask someone at the companionway to hand up a bag in the cooler that had his name on it. He would take the bag and pull out a deli sandwich and start chowing down and pay no attention to the new crewmembers that were expecting a sandwich or snack or something. One guy had the guts to ask, 'Hey Vern, where are the sandwiches?'

     Vern would just look the guy right in the eye and answer, 'What, you didn't bring your own sandwich?'

     Most of the crew would bring a 6 pack or two each and they would get passed around once the spinnaker was up and flying for the long downwinder back to StTYC and the guy that asked about the sandwiches actually declined a beer and said he didn't drink while racing and asked if he could have one of the cold water bottles he had seen in the cooler. 

    Vern heard him and asked gruffly, 'What? You didn't bring your own water? Those are my waters...'

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8 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Wow, that really is a different "culture."

Trimming, rail meat,sewer, pit, bow all the same. You are pulling strings getting  it done. You ain't calling the shots. But that's really beside the point. You have no ownership stake--and typically ownership gets you tactics and decisions (being skipper). I really scratch my head at this. But then again, where I am, if you show up with your skills, you might even be find yourself in a bidding war between owners to get you aboard! Just bass-ackwards. Mind boggling. Interesting. But like I've said before, not even legal here. Unless you are strictly voluntary (which you are not).

I’ve been scratching my head all day after reading about your US culture :) 

“Calling the shots”, we all give information to the driver/owner, and contribute to a decision. If he ignores all our input we’d find another team ;) 

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Part of the fun of owning a boat is being responsible for it. 

that includes Liability insurance, capital  and operating costs. 

My crew is generous with their time and assorted fittings from their collection when we need a camcleat or small block, but I am the one waving a credit card at WestMarine, or dealing with sailmaker and yard bills. 

I've paid entry fees for races I was not aboard so the boat and crew could race. It's just part of the deal. 

I generally get the first round after the race and if people are aboard over a meal time supply some type of food. Donations are always welcome

I would not expect to cover any personal gear or costs.

If we had an away regatta, we would have food and berths aboard, if somebody wanted to go off and pub crawl or sleep ashore that's their costs. 

Help with deliveries is appreciated, but at the end of the regatta, it's my boat, and if they drove to meet her, I don't expect them to take her back unless they're offering. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, impetuous_donkey said:

Thanks man, I checked them out and it seems like what I'm looking for!

something positive out of all the bickering!

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I own an old small boat.  Most of our racing is local club stuff.  I don't ask for any contribution to the program from my crew other than showing up on time and not being an asshole.  I make a few sandwiches and someone else usually brings the beer.  I'm lucky that I get to sail with people I consider friends, however.  Every year though, I like to travel with the boat to a regatta out of state.  I pay all the expenses that have to do with the boat and regatta fees but I can't pay for everyone's food, lodging etc.  Again, because most of my crew are good friends, it's treated like any good road trip and my crew pays their way.  I'll pay for the regatta food tickets but that's about it.  

It sounds like where NORBowgirl sails, it's done differently but it sounds like it works.  I guess it depends where you are, how badly someone wants to sail and how badly an owner needs crew.  

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7 hours ago, NORBowGirl said:

Yep. Plus, if I get injured I'd just go to the hospital and get help, in our public healthcare system. So I wouldn't need to sue anybody to pay any medical bills. 

I hope your public system is way way way better than your next door neighbours. Come to think of it, some of their problems relate to staffing shortages which is in part due to nurses and I assume doctors crossing the border for the riches on offer... 

As a former owner, it sounds appealing the thought that some bills will have been paid by the crew, but at the same time I can't imagine it working in a lot of cases.

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25 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

I’ve been scratching my head all day after reading about your US culture :) 

“Calling the shots”, we all give information to the driver/owner, and contribute to a decision. If he ignores all our input we’d find another team ;) 

Ime am with you, notte siurre what hase binge describeded aboove.                :) 

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Here in the UK I have experience of two sorts of racing:

1) Pay to play. A commercial operation. Boat is MCA coded, oilskins (definitely not top of the line) and life jackets are available. Sailing with strangers. Pro skipper (not necessarily the helm). 

2) Private owners. Boat is put on the start line by the owner at a previously understood level of competitiveness. Sails,  maintenance etc is down to the owner.  He gets to choose who does what. Life jackets are normally onboard to ensure compliance with special regs, but many bring their own. BYO oilskins. No cash to sail, but share costs of accommodation and food. Normally more competitive that PtP boats. With a particularly established team and owner, crew members take on things like crew lists, deliveries etc.

The next level up from this is team oilskin, a pro or two etc.

 

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So if people routinely spend 800/year in Norway just to crew on someone else's sailboat (you could do a lot with that money!) there must be a strange market imbalance there. There must not be enough sailboats and owners. There must be a strangely high number of non-owner sailors.

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8 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

So if people routinely spend 800/year in Norway just to crew on someone else's sailboat (you could do a lot with that money!) there must be a strange market imbalance there. There must not be enough sailboats and owners. There must be a strangely high number of non-owner sailors.

$800 a year to sail is pretty damn cheap.  There’s a few threads about yacht club dues and club boats.  $800 is a bargain.

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1 minute ago, Swimsailor said:

$800 a year to sail is pretty damn cheap.  There’s a few threads about yacht club dues and club boats.  $800 is a bargain.

Yes, except that getting on a boat to crew is free...so that 800 could buy a dinghy, and etc...that's why I find it surprising. There's obviously a lot more keen to sail people in Norway than there are here, relative to the number of boats with owners keen to race.

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

LOL if you get to make race decisions, call tactics, steer for significant amounts of time, I would agree with you. If you are just trimming sails, not so much. LOL.

But seriously--what percentage of sailors in your regattas that you are sailing, are paying the owner for the privilege of sailing? Is this 1 out of 20 boats? 10 out of 20? 19 out of 20?

I confess I am really disappointed in my fellow Americans that very few of them come close to understanding what NB Girl is describing.  

Maybe it is just me?  My visual is not of sailors paying the owner for the privilege of being on his boat. I hear her describing an environment of a true team without the class distinction between "Owner" and "Crew".  I read her describing a place where the sailors do not see them selves as "paying" the owner ......or being unpaid "railmeat".......but instead , it sound slike a group of sailors who have decided to share the cost among a group of committed sailors to do a season's campaign ....and that one of the sailors has provided the boat ...and then they take the roles that reflect their strengths.

I would like to aks her if the owner always steers or if that role is shared according to skills.

But either way, to this sailor , who is bored with the decline in the quality of racing....this sounds like a really refreshing concept ....and if a team of guys and gals , including an owner approached me and said , we want you as part of the team. Each of us is contributing $800 for the season so that Jack and all of us can put together a really good program and commit to it.....are you in? Hell I'd give it a go.

To be honest I dont need to have my sandwiches paid for, and I dont need someone else to buy my beer....and I dont like the condescending entitlement structure of skipper and crew and the common refrain around here of "OPB". I would find it really refreshing and motivating to be on a crew where we share costs and the skipper is part of the team rather than the feudal lord.

My 2 cents....and I know its different....but this is an interesting thread.

 

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9 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Whenever I've come across a "feudal lord" I've just moved to the next boat...for free...

Yeah I probably chose the wrong term. I agree there is never a reason to sail with a feudal lord.

But to be fair, it sounds like there is a distinction in your mind between the owner and the crew.

At a minimum you are choosing to sail for someone that you view as someone who should pay the bills .  

I'm just opening my universe to sailing with people who I want to share the bills with.....havent done it yet....but I can see how it might get more people on the water having more fun. Hey....its working in Norway.....

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Or put another way.....who is your favorite helm and tactician that you have ever sailed with ......and the best bowperson. ....most fun crew.  Do they own the boat you like to sail on?  Is there an owner that would be open to putting together your dream team, if everyone chipped in a bit with costs?

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2 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

I like the concept that NORGIRL describes- everyone on the team has a real investment in the effort.  

Yeah......that's it in a nutshell. Much better put than my post.

Plus it just makes everyone on the team feel like a more equal team member.  Team dinners are true team dinners.

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1 hour ago, NORBowGirl said:

I’ve been scratching my head all day after reading about your US culture :) 

“Calling the shots”, we all give information to the driver/owner, and contribute to a decision. If he ignores all our input we’d find another team ;) 

Sounds like Swedish office culture. What happens if you don’t reach consensus, do you sail around in circles until consensus if finally reached?

i guess you would not stay long on a Finnish owned boat.

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2 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Or put another way.....who is your favorite helm and tactician that you have ever sailed with ......and the best bowperson. ....most fun crew.  Do they own the boat you like to sail on?  Is there an owner that would be open to putting together your dream team, if everyone chipped in a bit with costs?

The ocean racing I did a long time ago was with an owner who was, quite simply, the greatest in every way. And I didn't have to pay to crew for him but I consider it an honor that I was asked to sail with him.

Because I know this commercial stuff from my vocation there is no way I would ever do a cost sharing exercise of the sort BowGirl is doing. It simply won't fly. But partnership? Sure. That I would do. You could have a 6 person or 8 person team of owners for all I care. But paying without owning? Ain't gonna happen on my watch.

Helping a friend? Sanding and painting and stuff? Heck yes! Done that. For sure. And that is legal.

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2 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

Sounds like Swedish office culture. What happens if you don’t reach consensus, do you sail around in circles until consensus if finally reached?

i guess you would not stay long on a Finnish owned boat.

HAhahaha! I have cousins in Scandinavia. I'm going to share this one.

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13 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

HAhahaha! I have cousins in Scandinavia. I'm going to share this one.

Swedes hate conflict, love consensus and Swedish managers (at least the ones I worked with) don't like making decisions or even giving the tie break vote. Finnish managers seem to be very hierarchical and expect staff to accept their decisions. Never encountered Norwegian or Danish management style, but NORbowgirl crewing suggests they are similar to Swedes. Danish hate to be like Swedes, so their management style is perhaps very different.  

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My payment is being first on the boat and last off. I bring my own meals, and don't drink. I'll be 100% on the whole time and my sure my bow team brings their A game. You get me for the weekend. That's my payment.  You get the same treatment from me if your paying me( which I've been paid) or if you got me for free.

The owner owns the boat and recruits his team for the love of the game, unless he's hiring pro's.

If I as a crew have to pay to participate on your team, my name damn well better be on the title, and I get to help decide what races we run, and who gets to crew. That's called a shareholder.

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57 minutes ago, IPLore said:

 I would find it really refreshing and motivating to be on a crew where we share costs and the skipper is part of the team rather than the feudal lord.

My 2 cents....and I know its different....but this is an interesting thread.

 

So if we are out sailing and the XXXX breaks and it costs $5,000, would you rather I be a feudal lord or do want to pay $2500 to help fix my boat :lol:

I think you have it totally backwards anyway. Apparently in Norway rides are so scarce and sailors so plentiful they'll pay to get on a boat,. Around here boats don't race because they can't find crew. No one is going to be acting like Capt Asshole and keeping a crew for long unless you pay them ;) (Donnybrook syndrome)

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If I'm the Skipper of Record..  I'll pay for all fees, supply the grub and the booze. pony up for any repairs needed after I get back to the slip.

I keep the Pickle Dish and any other swag that goes along with it.

Outside of that...

I say

Look Left!

 

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17 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

No one is going to be acting like Capt Asshole and keeping a crew for long unless you pay them ;) (Donnybrook syndrome)

IIRC, Donnybrook didn’t pay any pro crew, even though it was an 80’ maxi.

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27 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

Swedes hate conflict, love consensus and Swedish managers (at least the ones I worked with) don't like making decisions or even giving the tie break vote. Finnish managers seem to be very hierarchical and expect staff to accept their decisions. Never encountered Norwegian or Danish management style, but NORbowgirl crewing suggests they are similar to Swedes. Danish hate to be like Swedes, so their management style is perhaps very different.  

I worked under a Finn once, in a Norwegian company. I liked him.

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33 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

IIRC, Donnybrook didn’t pay any pro crew, even though it was an 80’ maxi.

They had some paid crew and a huge supply of free crew that wanted to be on the "cool boat" for a bit and then realized how bad it was and escaped.

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Owners pay the bills(Including the first round of drinks).  If they cant they need a smaller boat.

 

Skippers sponge the bilge.  They get the fun job and all the glory.

 

The rest does all the hard work on the water so they get a pass off it.  deliveries and rigging help is cool but no money needed.

 

The fuck is this world coming to?

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I've never paid to race, but I have absolutely no problem kicking in for a share of the expenses for an extraordinarily pricey undertaking with a committed crew/group of friends.  Several years ago, I was part of a crew that did something really stupid during a race and I contributed to the insurance deductible.  I don't see a problem with voluntarily contributing a reasonable share of food/entry costs for something that isn't a "normal" event in a boat's circuit.  I think it's reasonable for regular crew to chip in for some kind of a "boat present" once in a while -- maybe as significant as a sail, maybe only a bottle of rum...it's the thought/appreciation that counts.

If I break something, I'll replace it or help fix it.  I'll show up for every work/maintenance event.  I'll deliver the boat/crew/skipper as required to/from away events.  I'll show up with a positive attitude to every race and will bring all of my own gear/electronics (ensuring that the everything meets the SERs).

In my opinion, if you start presenting crew with a bill to step on board, you'll either be building lots of experience on the single handed circuit or your boat is going to spend a lot of time at the dock.

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10 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

 

I am not buying your PFD or foulies. Same reason I don't buy your underwear or sunglasses. Why would crew bring their own AIS or EPIRB? That is part of the boat, not part of your kit. if they want their own PLB to keep in their pocket they would be buying that.

Crew brings: Clothes, shoes, sunglasses, PFDs, and so on.

I bring: Sails, engines, radios, and so on.

 

Some races require personal epirbs or ais beacons.  I bought one for an ocean race thinking I would use it anyway for other races on opb and my own boat.

I have contributed to some regatta expenses on a boat I crewed on.  I don't normally do that but this boat was a lot of fun with good owner and crew.  It was an out of town race and we all chipped in because the owner was such a good dude.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

They had some paid crew and a huge supply of free crew that wanted to be on the "cool boat" for a bit and then realized how bad it was and escaped.

Yes, this is accurate.

P.S. M used to issue shirts for each race and then collect them at the end of each race: which is a little unusual. :unsure:

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8 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

From your link:

If you as a passenger are required to provide any money, fuel, or supplies before or after the operator allows you to get underway on the vessel, the vessel is operating as a passenger vessel and must be operated by an individual who holds a valid Coast Guard issued Merchant Mariner’s License.

If a vessel carries just one individual passenger, or “hop on,” who provides anything more than a voluntary sharing of the actual cost of the trip, the vessel is operating as a passenger vessel and requires a Coast Guard licensed operator

I'm glad someone brought this up, now for the rest of the story (according to Paul Harvey)

Passenger for Hire is NOT automatically covered in a Recreational Boat Insurance Policy (it is automatically covered in a Charter Boat / Passenger for Hire  Insurance Policy).

About 1/2 of insurance companies do not provide coverage for Charter Boats. 

What does this mean?  Board a boat that has Passengers for Hire, who has a standard Recreational Boat Insurance Policy, it if voided by that activity.

Solution, if on a boat with crew who pay, ask the owner for a copy of their insurance policy to make sure they have a Passenger for Hire Policy or a Passenger for Hire  Endorsement.

Enforcement in an insurance policy is found in the provision that "illegal acts are excluded." So no licensed captain, so no inspected vessel for over 6 passengers, etc. an illegal act is occurring, hence no coverage.

Otherwise if you get injured, and there is no Passenger for Hire coverage (whether or not you are paying, just if anyone is paying) you'll find no coverage from the boat owners insurance policy.

Good luck!

Footnote - what I wrote applies in U.S. Federal Waters. If sailing in State Owned Waters, you'll need to refer to your own State Laws as each is different.

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8 hours ago, IPLore said:

 

I would like to aks her if the owner always steers or if that role is shared according to skills.

 

 

X-35 is a owner-driver class, so yes. But he would do that anyway, as he is really good at it :)   

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8 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

Sounds like Swedish office culture. What happens if you don’t reach consensus, do you sail around in circles until consensus if finally reached?

i guess you would not stay long on a Finnish owned boat.

The Fins don't talk much, so I guess they just LOOK at each other :D 

 

If we don't reach consensus, the skipper will decide of course. Or if we have a dedicated tactician, but we rarely do. 

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3 hours ago, NORBowGirl said:

The Fins don't talk much, so I guess they just LOOK at each other :D 

except when drunk

3 hours ago, NORBowGirl said:

If we don't reach consensus, the skipper will decide of course. Or if we have a dedicated tactician, but we rarely do. 

So you have the tie breaker Swedes lack :)

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I’ve been on both sides. I was crew for a longtime and now I’m the owner. I think it depends on pockets depth. I have a friend that will do a very long distance and expensive race. Without the crew helping with cash he would be unable to do that. By now I have a good financial situation, so I pay for all boat expenses. But, if in the future it changes, I will have two choices

1. Lower the boat standards

2. Start asking money from the crew.

The good side on asking money for the crew is that they start to feel the pain themselves. Like when they are in a hangover and rip a brand new spinnaker or throw away a USD 400 sheet with an expensive tylaska shackle, they will remember how much was it

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

 

I think you have it totally backwards anyway. Apparently in Norway rides are so scarce and sailors so plentifulBecause they'll pay to get on a boat,. Around here boats don't race because they can't find crew.

Okay ....Im misquoting......but perhaps the reason that there is declining participation is because

1. Not everyone has the time and resources to be an owner on the American Model

2. Not everyone has the inclination to be a crew on the American "unpaid hand"/ "railmeat" model.

And that there is a third category of sailor that has the resources /independence of spirit that they dont want to just be someone else's crew but they also dont want to have the associated hassles of full time ownership.   These guys are sailing in Norway. What are they doing here?

Well....some of them are lucky enough to be members of NYYC and are forming syndicates to share the costs the NYC one -design.

Others belong to clubs that are looking at club owned boats......eg......the GYA clubs .

I wonder if the traditional owner/crew model is going to be disrupted by something new that will get more people on the water.

 

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14 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Okay ....Im misquoting......but perhaps the reason that there is declining participation is because

1. Not everyone has the time and resources to be an owner on the American Model

2. Not everyone has the inclination to be a crew on the American "unpaid hand"/ "railmeat" model.

And that there is a third category of sailor that has the resources /independence of spirit that they dont want to just be someone else's crew but they also dont want to have the associated hassles of full time ownership.   These guys are sailing in Norway. What are they doing here?

Well....some of them are lucky enough to be members of NYYC and are forming syndicates to share the costs the NYC one -design.

Others belong to clubs that are looking at club owned boats......eg......the GYA clubs .

I wonder if the traditional owner/crew model is going to be disrupted by something new that will get more people on the water.

 

Your edits to Kent's post is completely nonsensical. Please just say what you are trying to say because the way it reads is utter nonsense.

SAilboats are cheap as chips in the US to buy. USed.

The costs are everything else.

Haulout.

repairs

storage

docking/mooring

SAILS for racing.

Fuel is practically free. Very little used. Funny when Euros actually mention fuel for a sailboat--as if that is even anything at all!!!

Access points are limited. Yacht Clubs and Marinas cannot grow.

Structurally that's what it is.

Small boat sailing (dinghies) is what really evaporated the most.

Making crew pay to be on a boat would be the last nail in the coffin. I hardly see how that is a good thing. Like I said before, partnerships in owning a boat are different from the topic of this thread. And besides, charging your crew (or requiring "voluntary" donations) is not legal in U.S. (or Canada, or Britain--heck it probably ain't leagal in Norge either) unless a prperly docmented passenger vessel.

If you want to pay to sail regularly, you have a couple clubs doing that like I mentioned before. Note that that model has been around since the mid 80s and has not grown. It was invented by Manhattan YC.

 

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Agree with @fastyacht but beyond that I wonder if you folks are maybe focused on the wrong thing be it US or Europe.  As somebody already noted even in the US, the USCG ain't running around looking to prosecute this.  They are only going to go after it if they get involved because of some significant issue/accident on the water.  And IF that happens the USCG may be the least of your problems (both for the paying crew and as the owner).  Insurance anyone?  

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

Agree with @fastyacht but beyond that I wonder if you folks are maybe focused on the wrong thing be it US or Europe.  As somebody already noted even in the US, the USCG ain't running around looking to prosecute this.  They are only going to go after it if they get involved because of some significant issue/accident on the water.  And IF that happens the USCG may be the least of your problems (both for the paying crew and as the owner).  Insurance anyone?  

Abso F lutely.

But knowing that, I ain't getting on no boat with no mandatory "voluntary" collections!

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On 11/7/2019 at 1:07 AM, bosundog said:

Looking for insight and feedback.  I had a recent discussion with sailing friends regarding what I'd call "pay to play" with crew for races.   The boats I play with as crew it was the norm to BYOB, and perhaps contribute snacks and lunch or such.  Labor for maintenance was desired but not demanded. Transitioning into distance and ocean races I'm hearing more about owners "requesting" contributions, sometimes significant amounts of cash to get on a boat, cash for new sails, more significant entry fees, bottom jobs, yadda yadda.    Thought being if crew forks over bucks. They're more "invested" in the event.  Is this now the new norm? 

So here's my take on this.

Let's say owner starts this -- not the long-time crew. Owner wants money for sails, the Bermuda entry fee, some upgrades etc.
Asking for money is, well, awkward to say the least, Especially ocean racing.

BUT

If the owner were to go to the crew and say, "here's the deal. I really would like to do this, but although I own this 4.9 knt classic, I really don't think I can make it all work cost wise. Are you guys interested in taking on part ownership?"

That would make sense.

Crew "buys in."

Totally legal.

Totally legit.

Owner and crew both making equal committments.

What the value is well that's up to the parties to figure out,

I'm sure that's happened before.

But writing an email to your crew and saying,

"I need $2900 to make this race happen, and it needs to come from you."

Is just daft.

Period.

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There's a parallel in the wine industry in CA.  Many wineries, ours (since closed) included allowed "volunteers" at the tasting room and for "crush", typically trading wine for hours, or some "must" for help in harvest for the enthusiasts... 

A few years back one of the North country wineries was tagged by the state, for several years back pay and back employment taxes, after a "volunteer" was injured and sued. 

That sort of put an end to what was really not a very smart practice. Having people who were not family pouring wines for the public, and operating machinery. 

 

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I have an idea, let the people involved work out what ever system works for them to split or not split the cost, labor & effort..... 

I am actually surprised more boats are not raced as syndicates or under a system where the crew charters a 'bare' boat from the owner 

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25 minutes ago, dbottles said:

I have an idea, let the people involved work out what ever system works for them to split or not split the cost, labor & effort..... 

I am actually surprised more boats are not raced as syndicates or under a system where the crew charters a 'bare' boat from the owner 

It's not at all surprising actually, as there are all those pesky things about insruance, liability, responsibility and authority...think about it for a minute.
That's what Manhattan YC was trying to get around and pretty much did...but never became the prevailing way.

People have complicated schedules. Ask any owner of a boatb on Long Island Sound, how they keep it crewed for a series. The answer is usually, "it depends."

Now try to make syndicates...it gets complicated. I dunno, that's just my take on it.

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All the ideas about importing a crew pays to sail model to the USA will fail for two reasons, one being legal and the much more obvious one being WHY would they pay to sail on your boat when the boat next to you will take them for free :unsure:

There are plenty of legal ways to have a racing commune of some kind. Annapolis has J-World where you pay a set amount and use their fleet. I know someone in a sailing club in New York that does something similar. 4 young people with a grand each in their pocket could all go in on a Cal 25. There are ways to do it if you want to.

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

There are plenty of legal ways to have a racing commune of some kind. Annapolis has J-World where you pay a set amount and use their fleet. I know someone in a sailing club in New York that does something similar. 4 young people with a grand each in their pocket could all go in on a Cal 25. There are ways to do it if you want to.

Legal ways are a necessity for anything to last longer than the first disagreement. But the key question that has to be answered: 

How many non compulsory "Communes" have survived more that a few years in the US ? Or in any areas in the last 100 yrs? 

The Kibbutz are all that I can think of... 

Generally they fail when the majority realize that they won't get to be the "Poet laureate" and that their most valued contribution will be laboring out in the fields, with more politically persuasive folks shaping the decisions. The equivalent would be bottom sander and railmeat on a boat. Because "some animals are more equal" 

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Sail on my boat and bring anything you want.

I will supply all you need for the day

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On 11/7/2019 at 7:58 AM, Grrr... said:

You don't fucking charge people to race.  You have them put in the sweat equity while having a good time.  Before each race you make sure they get there early enough to wash down the boat, top and sides.  If the interior is getting bad, shopvac it.

Yea, NFW I would ever ask for money from my crew unless it was a very special circumstance like trailering to a regatta halfway across the country. I'm a big believer in team building stuff like crew parties and work parties as well. Everyone pitches in this way. I am known for occasionally reminding my crew that we aren't done racing until the boat is put away and cleaned up for the next race properly. I don't ask my crew to pay for sails, equipment, or race fees, but I do ask them to contribute time to help me fix shit, because fixing and upgrading shit either makes the boat easier to sail or it makes us faster. Funny how that concept motivates people to help!

I also have a little personal feeling about making sure that my crew has the tools to do their job, and the tools to make sure they are safe. I have a fair number of Millennials on the boat. Some who are working two or three jobs, and taking a weekend off for a regatta means they have to lose a chance to make money. They just aren't in a place in their lives yet to go play around every weekend. With this being said if they need little things like lights and whistles for their PFDs, or even a PFD period I just make sure they have it. Why? Because I've been in their shoes and I enjoy their contribution and commitment. 

As far as provisioning is concerned, we kinda have a rule on our boat that we don't drink alcohol until the finish line. This actually was not something I came up with, the crew did it on their own. I guess they just want to stay focused? (Trust me, a few of them make up for the lost drinking time in short order once we're on shore) So with that being said, I always make sure there is something to eat and drink on the boat (snacks and water). Beyond that it just has developed into a potluck style provisioning. Everyone brings a "dish", whether that be sandwiches, veggies, dips, etc. Given that we usually have 7-9 people on board, no one seems to be deprived of energy during the race. Inevitably there always seems to be an assortment of other beverages, beer, and Captain Morgan on the boat too.

Interesting topic here. I recall this summer we were talking about the priority list for this winter's new sails and upgrades. One of my crew came to me and said his wife won't let him buy a boat, and wanted to know how he could $$$ pitch in.  I told him he could pitch in by continuing to show up to races!

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Always hard to ask crew for contributions - one scenario is:  you have regular crew but invite a few juniors aboard for a regatta.  These are just kids and don't have any money.  Now, are you going to ask your regular crew to throw in when they know you aren't going to ask the juniors to do so?

I always had trouble with that.  So I just didn't ask anyone to throw in.

The other problem is that crew often contribute in non-monetary ways - such as looking after a 10 hour delivery for you.  That will be one or two of your crew doing that, so at the next regatta are you going to ask everyone to throw in equally when one or two crew just gave up a day doing a delivery? 

It is a complex problem and Occams Razor applies - the simplest solution is to suck it up and not ask crew for money.  Some owners eventually stop racing as a result if they were on a really shoestring budget.  That is a shame, but it is the reality.

If my crew ever complained about anything amiss on the boat my instant response was "Donations gladly accepted!"

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When I ran a semi-serious J/24 program I paid for everything, most food, hotels rooms, etc for road regatta's. I had new North sails mostly every season, delivered to Lake George. Most years a vest or jacket or a fleece for the crew. A pretty competitive boat, faired bottom, nothing broken or suspect, etc. But it almost manageable then, sails we $3K for all 3.

Saying this, my main crew guy ran a transpo co. He had a bunch of 15 passenger vans in his fleet. He contributed the van and gas. 

For me it was worth ever penny, except for 2 winters the boat spent at Waterlines. That was just stupid, but at the time everyone was doing it or something similar.

On the 35, it was different. I wouldn't expect a penny from anyone for Wed night PHRF racing. But the crew brought enough beer that I rarely had to buy any even for weekends cruising. 

And for one race, the last time I did the Figawi, contributions were asked asked, the entry fee and dockage fee in Nantucket were voluntarily split among the crew. Previously i paid for the overhead  and a crew meal Sat night. That just got too crazy expensive.

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Outside of round the world races,  and something like fastnet,  where you might get an effectively commercial pay to sail trip.  I had never heard of paying crews. 

The skipper needs the crew he pays,  the crew is expected to supply all his own personal kit,  normally bringing their own pfd,  although spares are onboard.  On shore,  the crew normally  pays for his own way. Though I have had skippers pay for the before and after hotel and meals. 

I've sailed for half of each year with one skipper for almost 20 years,  he pays for the boat.  I've assisted with entry fees,  maintenance, turning up with my landrover for boat launch and recovery plus I've bought food occasionally. My skipper would never request money.  We go an annual boat show,  we alternate who drives each year,  one drives, the other buys the tickets. 

The boat has the necessary insurances,  of course in the UK medical is covered by the National Health Service,  as my skipper is finding out at the moment,  with a fractured skull,  and pelvis,  smashed wrist and hand,  smashed ankle,  and femur through the back of his leg. He was helicoptered to hospital when his motorcycle met the front of a tractor..  Cost to him £0..

We aren't  sailing this winter season. 

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On 11/7/2019 at 9:29 AM, Code 2 said:

as an owner, I cannot imagine asking for $$ from my crew for a sail, or maintenance.  That just doesnt sound appropriate to me.

people that offer to bring beer and sandwiches get the crew call first.

This thread has changed my mind and I am going to ask everyone to pitch in for the new J1 I want at next race....will report back.

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What about asking for crew to pay for the out of pocket expenses of shipping or hiring a crew to bring it back home?

I will pay for my food portion, chip in on the beer, cover all my own gear costs (own radio, epirb, satphone usage and even share in a liferaft rental if need be).  If i don't own a piece of the boat, i would rather not be told to cough up extra cash. If things are tight to get thing done so we can get to the starting line, i will gladly give something if they are more my good friends who want us to be there as sailing buds and we are on an amazing shared adventure. Just don't demand it from me.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

What about asking for crew to pay for the out of pocket expenses of shipping or hiring a crew to bring it back home?

I will pay for my food portion, chip in on the beer, cover all my own gear costs and even share in a liferaft rental if need be.  

 

 

Perhaps in the context that the crew suggests that they would like to add a distance race (Cal 300? ) to the program, or even the Delta Ditch Run. 

Skipper can then respond that he's happy to have the boat do the race and could even go along but it's not in his budget for money or time.

If the crew offers to participate in funding & delivery etc, then that's a reasonable way to do it. 

for the Skipper to decide they want to race outside their level of affordability and dun the crew doesn't sit right. 

 

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On 11/7/2019 at 6:24 AM, fastyacht said:

So you don't know for sure.

I often work with people from other countries. On occasion we start out thinking it is different then eventually after more discussion we discover, "oh, it's actually the same here." So simple honest questions. Is there an actual structural difference or is it a quasi-cultural difference?
 

I have played hockey in Canada, Japan and the US. If I played beer league here in Canada now I would have to sign a waiver. In Japan I never saw any piece of paper that was associated with my team. I did have to serve as a penalty timekeeper for other games in the league as everything was done as if we were playing serious hockey even though we were essentially a beer league team. In terms of culture, Japanese hockey players are usually not very big because the natural born athletes and big boys get tapped for rugby, baseball and judo. The funny thing is there isn't just much in the way of recreational baseball and softball in Japan. If you don't make it to an elite level at baseball, you just hang up your cleats and watch baseball on TV.

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On 11/10/2019 at 4:51 AM, LB 16 said:

I always had trouble with that. And maintaining an erection.

 

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22 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

I always had trouble with that. And maintaining an erection.

No need to overshare. Some things are self evident from your time prioritisation.

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Just now, Se7en said:

I find those little blue pills help. Of course it doesn't make it any bigger but my new BF is quite tight. Nevertheless he still thinks I am a pain in the arse sometimes.

 

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