Sign in to follow this  
Shootist Jeff

College Loan Debt forgiveness - WTF??

Recommended Posts

So aside from $30T in Single payer costs that Liz and Bernie are pushing, WTF is up with cancelling all or most of $1.6 trillion in student loan debt???  Bernie wouldn’t even have any means testing - so a wall st hedge fund manager making high six figures gets her loan wiped off and paid for by the tax payers.  Even Liz’s plan allows someone who is making $100K to get all of his loans cancelled and someone making up to $250 still gets some relief?  

Seriously, WTF?  This is a blatant pander to millennials. I’m pretty sure no one held a gun to their head and was forced to get a loan.  They were all consenting adults who made a risk/reward decision.  I took out a sizable loan to pay for what my scholarship didn’t cover because I chose to go to an expensive private college.  I paid every penny of it back and I wasn’t making big coin for the first 15 years of my working career by any stretch.  Why should these snowflakes get a free ride?  Fuck them!  Maybe choosing English Lit as your major wasn’t the smartest career decision unless you career aspiration was to be a full time waitress.  Why should joe and Jane taxpayer pick up your college tab???  

Did I mention “fuck you”!  Pay off your own fucking debts.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

So aside from $30T in Single payer costs that Liz and Bernie are pushing, WTF is up with cancelling all or most of $1.6 trillion in student loan debt???  Bernie wouldn’t even have any means testing - so a wall st hedge fund manager making high six figures gets her loan wiped off and paid for by the tax payers.  Even Liz’s plan allows someone who is making $100K to get all of his loans cancelled and someone making up to $250 still gets some relief?  

Seriously, WTF?  This is a blatant pander to millennials. I’m pretty sure no one held a gun to their head and was forced to get a loan.  They were all consenting adults who made a risk/reward decision.  I took out a sizable loan to pay for what my scholarship didn’t cover because I chose to go to an expensive private college.  I paid every penny of it back and I wasn’t making big coin for the first 15 years of my working career by any stretch.  Why should these snowflakes get a free ride?  Fuck them!  Maybe choosing English Lit as your major wasn’t the smartest career decision unless you career aspiration was to be a full time waitress.  Why should joe and Jane taxpayer pick up your college tab???  

Did I mention “fuck you”!  Pay off your own fucking debts.  

Didn’t you walk away from a mortgage? That’s totally legit. Why can’t one get rid of student loan debt the same way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Didn’t you walk away from a mortgage? That’s totally legit. Why can’t one get rid of student loan debt the same way?

Well first of all, I didn’t walk away.  I was able to finally successfully get a short sale approved.  And I suffered the consequences of that by taking a major hit to my credit rating for 7 years As well as a significant loss of my capital investment.  But for the sake of argument, even if I had - the taxpayers would not have been on the hook for repaying that loan, nor should they have been.  

Any other stupid messenger attacks to deflect from the question?  Why should $1.6T in student loan debt be absorbed by the US taxpayers?  Why should those borrowers be absolved of their responsibility that they chose to take on with zero consequences?  When do I get my reimbursement for the $60K in student loans I paid back in full?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

So aside from $30T in Single payer costs that Liz and Bernie are pushing, WTF is up with cancelling all or most of $1.6 trillion in student loan debt???  Bernie wouldn’t even have any means testing - so a wall st hedge fund manager making high six figures gets her loan wiped off and paid for by the tax payers.  Even Liz’s plan allows someone who is making $100K to get all of his loans cancelled and someone making up to $250 still gets some relief?  

Seriously, WTF?  This is a blatant pander to millennials. I’m pretty sure no one held a gun to their head and was forced to get a loan.  They were all consenting adults who made a risk/reward decision.  I took out a sizable loan to pay for what my scholarship didn’t cover because I chose to go to an expensive private college.  I paid every penny of it back and I wasn’t making big coin for the first 15 years of my working career by any stretch.  Why should these snowflakes get a free ride?  Fuck them!  Maybe choosing English Lit as your major wasn’t the smartest career decision unless you career aspiration was to be a full time waitress.  Why should joe and Jane taxpayer pick up your college tab???  

Did I mention “fuck you”!  Pay off your own fucking debts.  

yawn, once again the USA is 40+ years behind every other developed country.

Bernie and co will soon learn that this IS just middle class welfare and does little to assist the truly poor. And then they'll put something sensible in place..Like everyone else does.

Like interest free loans indexed to the cpi, only repayable when you get a job with a graduate type income.

Suck it up Jeffie..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Didn’t you walk away from a mortgage? That’s totally legit. Why can’t one get rid of student loan debt the same way?

really? Wow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

 Why should $1.6T in student loan debt be absorbed by the US taxpayers?  Why should those borrowers be absolved of their responsibility that they chose to take on with zero consequences?  When do I get my reimbursement for the $60K in student loans I paid back in full?  

So, are you against the concept in principle, or are you against it because you missed out?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

So, are you against the concept in principle, or are you against it because you missed out?  

I’m against the concept in principle.  But if enacted, I definitely wants my cut.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

really? Wow.

No, not really.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Well first of all, I didn’t walk away.  I was able to finally successfully get a short sale approved.  And I suffered the consequences of that by taking a major hit to my credit rating for 7 years As well as a significant loss of my capital investment.

Just the sort of guy to talk to about economics then?

Apparently you know as much about finance as you do about politics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So no one is able to answer the question about why this is a good idea and instead want to make it only about me.  Why not just admit that you don’t know the answer and leave it at that?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

So no one is able to answer the question about why this is a good idea and instead want to make it only about me.  Why not just admit that you don’t know the answer and leave it at that?  

I'm against it.  Education is an investment for which you expect a later return.  If you invested poorly, tough.  House drops in value, tough, you suck it up and still make the payments.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Large amounts of debt are a drag on the economy. Yet an educated workforce is good for the economy. It's time for a rebalance.

 

 

Single payer health care seems almost acceptable. It's only a matter of time before single payer education follows suit.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

So no one is able to answer the question about why this is a good idea and instead want to make it only about me.  Why not just admit that you don’t know the answer and leave it at that?  

A lot of that student debt won't get paid back anyway, there have been student loan forgiveness programs in place for a long time, even back when you graduated high school and went looking for your education and career path.

People who do certain "strategic" work already get that forgiveness as an incentive. That includes things like government work, nonprofit work and medical work. Once they make 120 on-time payments, the remainder of the Federal loan is forgiven. The G.I. Bill is similar; give away the cost of education to encourage military service.

And in a sense, the net social benefit of people working in nonprofit hospitals, nonprofit poverty advocacy and government can beat the economic benefit of working for the defense industry.

Your question is "why?" but it might be better to ask "why not?"

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I object that we ever allowed anyone to charge interest on student loans 

I object that public universities charge more than token tuition Fees.

student loan debt is a symptom of a selfish generation who has refused to properly find our education system. 
 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Single payer health care seems almost acceptable. It's only a matter of time before single payer education follows suit.

Well, essentially single payer Higher education has to be the end result of this loan forgiveness then.  So Liz or Bernie wipe out all the current loan debt now. Fine, that essentially means that there will never be another college loan ever paid off by the borrower going forward, right?  I mean, why should a college student in a couple of years be expected to pay their loans when no one else is expected to now.  

So not only is their plan to forgive current debt, it is to make college “free” for everyone else from here on out.  And by “Free” I mean the taxpayers will pay it all.  How many more Trillion$ is THAT going to cost and how will they pay for it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Didn’t you walk away from a mortgage? That’s totally legit. Why can’t one get rid of student loan debt the same way?

FWIW, A mortgage is a secured loan.  A student loan is not a secured loan - and one that has virtually no vetting on top of that.

My problem with the 'forgiveness' plan is:

a)  It does nothing to reduce the cost of education

b) it does nothing to increase the access to education

c) It promotes income inequality along racial and ethnic lines.  Because nothing says "I'm entitled to free money" like being a bougie white kid - who will be the predominant winners of such a give away. 

Other than that, its fine. 

Seriously - I'd be ok with forgiving like 10K or something cause that would disproportionately help lower income folks (who generally owe less overall but the amount they owe disproportionally impacts their life) as long as it was part of a program to increase access and reduce COST - not reduce price, I've had enough of that bullshit to fill one life already.  Otherwise, this is 'build a wall' pandering.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Well, essentially single payer Higher education has to be the end result of this loan forgiveness then.  So Liz or Bernie wipe out all the current loan debt now. Fine, that essentially means that there will never be another college loan ever paid off by the borrower going forward, right?  I mean, why should a college student in a couple of years be expected to pay their loans when no one else is expected to now.  

So not only is their plan to forgive current debt, it is to make college “free” for everyone else from here on out.  And by “Free” I mean the taxpayers will pay it all.  How many more Trillion$ is THAT going to cost and how will they pay for it?

Arent University graduates better paid than non graduates?

Dont  better paid people already pay more tax?

Forgiving existing debt is a misnomer. Cost shifting is perhaps a better term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

before we start this debate, perhaps Jeff can explain why a medical degree in the usa costs 200,000.(public)

That's four times!! the cost in the UK

Why do you want to burden young people with debt? when someone is obviously making a profit off them.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

before we start this debate, perhaps Jeff can explain why a medical degree in the usa costs 200,000.(public)

That's four times!! the cost in the UK

Why do you want to burden young people with debt? when someone is obviously making a profit off them.

 

1) why is my job to explain university costs?

2) how is that relevant to the discussion?
 

Taking on student debt is totally optional. Going to medical school is even more optional. I think the cost of higher ed is far too high. But it is what it is and a topic for a separate discussion.  And people who take out loans are betting on the cum that their earnings will offset their debt. And Iin most cases they are correct. How is it different than any other investment?  Why would you not expect to pay for that investment?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just like housing. When credit is readily available and easy to get. Prices are driven up. Easy money is spent easily.

There needs to be some method of capping loan amounts based on future expected earnings. No way a liberal arts major should be loaned 100k to go to school. 

Universities and hospitals both have Sky rocketing costs due to a huge increase in admin positions. You look at the number of professors per student and the number of docs per patient and you see little change in 40 years. Look at the same stats for administration jobs in health care and education and you see huge increases in staffing. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"But for the sake of argument, even if I had - the taxpayers would not have been on the hook for repaying that loan, nor should they have been.  "

Don't lenders get a tax break for losses? In that case, the taxpayers ARE on the hook because the needed revenues have to come from somewhere else.

Another factor is that when you went to college, government picked up 80% of the cost and the student 20 today that is reversed. Adding in the stagnation of wages since the Republican Revolution, student loans are a greater necessity to go to school.  Finally, those student loan costs are putting a drag on the economy by discouraging kids from having children, buying houses or cars or even moving out of the house.  

An example, I got a summer job out of high school paying $8.50 an hour to offset the cost of a college where a credit hour was about $14 if I recall.  Today a credit hour is closer to $130 (if all the fees, the percentage of which is exponentially higher, are counted in) but the jobs are still in the $8-10 range.  Very different economic environment.  

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, learningJ24 said:

"But for the sake of argument, even if I had - the taxpayers would not have been on the hook for repaying that loan, nor should they have been.  "

Don't lenders get a tax break for losses? In that case, the taxpayers ARE on the hook because the needed revenues have to come from somewhere else.

Another factor is that when you went to college, government picked up 80% of the cost and the student 20 today that is reversed. Adding in the stagnation of wages since the Republican Revolution, student loans are a greater necessity to go to school.  Finally, those student loan costs are putting a drag on the economy by discouraging kids from having children, buying houses or cars or even moving out of the house.  

An example, I got a summer job out of high school paying $8.50 an hour to offset the cost of a college where a credit hour was about $14 if I recall.  Today a credit hour is closer to $130 (if all the fees, the percentage of which is exponentially higher, are counted in) but the jobs are still in the $8-10 range.  Very different economic environment.  

$130 a credit hour? Where is this? More like $600 plus books and fees 

I also doubt that $8.50 an hour was the after Hs wage at any time when tuition was $14 an hour. One week of full time would pay for the whole year of tuition?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Well first of all, I didn’t walk away.  I was able to finally successfully get a short sale approved.  And I suffered the consequences of that by taking a major hit to my credit rating for 7 years As well as a significant loss of my capital investment.  But for the sake of argument, even if I had - the taxpayers would not have been on the hook for repaying that loan, nor should they have been.  

Any other stupid messenger attacks to deflect from the question?  Why should $1.6T in student loan debt be absorbed by the US taxpayers?  Why should those borrowers be absolved of their responsibility that they chose to take on with zero consequences?  When do I get my reimbursement for the $60K in student loans I paid back in full?  

:lol: fucking entitlement gold!

7 minutes ago, chinabald said:

$130 a credit hour? Where is this? More like $600 plus books and fees 

I also doubt that $8.50 an hour was the after Hs wage at any time when tuition was $14 an hour. One week of full time would pay for the whole year of tuition?  

:lol:

 

God damn the elk are stupid and lazy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, chinabald said:

$130 a credit hour? Where is this? More like $600 plus books and fees 

I also doubt that $8.50 an hour was the after Hs wage at any time when tuition was $14 an hour. One week of full time would pay for the whole year of tuition?  

It was during the oil boom of the 80's working rigs. Three months would pay for a full year of tuition, books and board. I seem to recall 13.74 as the first credit hour I purchased but memory is hazy, hence the qualification. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, chinabald said:

There needs to be some method of capping loan amounts based on future expected earnings. No way a liberal arts major should be loaned 100k to go to school. 

:lol: yeah, those English majors who are going to end up at an Ivy league law school making $$$$$$$ shouldn't be able to get a loan :lol:

This is just the latest battle in the dumbfuck republicans current culture war on higher education. And also a shining example where the right likes paternalistic big government and hates credit markets because they don't believe in markets except when they makes rich people richer. Republicans are all about socialism for the rich and "capitalism" for the poor.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

:lol: yeah, those English majors who are going to end up at an Ivy league law school making $$$$$$$ shouldn't be able to get a loan :lol:

This is just the latest battle in the dumbfuck republicans current culture war on higher education. 

Once they go to an ivy league law school they can get bigger loans. For the grad degree. 

Do you actually think that the Ivy League law school cost is bundled in with the bachelor’s degree? 

Whats your idea, should a teen looking at degrees with shit prospects and shit future earning be allowed to go 100k in debt? It’s a terrible system we have where this is allowed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, chinabald said:

Once they go to an ivy league law school they can get bigger loans. For the grad degree. 

Do you actually think that the Ivy League law school cost is bundled in with the bachelor’s degree? 

Whats your idea, should a teen agent looking at degrees with shit prospects and shit future earning be allowed to go 100k in debt? It’s a terrible system we have where this is allowed. 

It's not an education system. It's a system for funneling money to The Right People. The only reason we have gov't-backed student loans which are shielded from bankruptcy is that a bunch of lobbyists wrote the legislation for it.... another example of taking risk public and privatizing the profit.

The fact that it's somehow connected to college is totally a side issue.

- DSK

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

3 hours ago, cmilliken said:

FWIW, A mortgage is a secured loan.  A student loan is not a secured loan - and one that has virtually no vetting on top of that.

FWIW student loans are not dis-chargeable in personal bankruptcy except in rare circumstances since 1978. They are, in effect, secured by the life of the student.

FWIW - some states ban recourse mortgages (the lender can't go after your other assets, so you can just "walk away") other states allow recourse mortgages so the lender may be able to go after other assets.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Large amounts of debt are a drag on the economy. Yet an educated workforce is good for the economy. It's time for a rebalance.

 

 

Single payer health care seems almost acceptable. It's only a matter of time before single payer education follows suit.

Large amounts of debt are the engine of the economy.  Well, at least until the bill comes due.

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

It's not an education system. It's a system for funneling money to The Right People. The only reason we have gov't-backed student loans which are shielded from bankruptcy is that a bunch of lobbyists wrote the legislation for it.... another example of taking risk public and privatizing the profit.

The fact that it's somehow connected to college is totally a side issue.

- DSK

You are right. It’s a shit system where some people are taken advantage of. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, chinabald said:

Whats your idea, should a teen agent looking at degrees with shit prospects and shit future earning be allowed to go 100k in debt? It’s a terrible system we have where this is allowed. 

Is your idea the current system is so perfect you can determine which majors and which students will have good prospects and earnings 4-6 years down the road? Bluntly  you are an idiot if you think this. I can introduce you to a number of STEM students that thought they had great prospects only to graduate into a recession. Is it your view there is no difference between an English major that graduates from Eastern Kentucky University and Harvard University?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

An economy only needs so many geniuses .

and when people like you give their genius away for free on the internet, there aren't many paying gigs.

there's nothing better than bitter old fart bootstrappers arguing against social mobility.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

 

FWIW student loans are not dis-chargeable in personal bankruptcy except in rare circumstances since 1978. They are, in effect, secured by the life of the student.

FWIW - some states ban recourse mortgages (the lender can't go after your other assets, so you can just "walk away") other states allow recourse mortgages so the lender may be able to go after other assets.

The question that was asked was why you can walk away from a mortgage but not a student loan.  I answered.  Thank you for clarifying. 

The 'recourse' judgement is based on the idea that the underlying asset didn't meet the requirements to secure the loan and so somehow the borrower did something wrong.  Imho, all recourse mortgages should be banned.   That's what underwriting is all about.  That's not the borrowers fault.  If the borrower wants additional credit, put up additional collateral or qualify unsecured.  This stuff is easy.  It's only complicated because people try to fit square pegs in round holes.  The little lies add up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

and when people like you give their genius away for free on the internet, there aren't many paying gigs.

there's nothing better than bitter old fart bootstrappers arguing against social mobility.

Living in your mom's basement isn't social mobility.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Seriously, WTF?  This is a blatant pander to millennials. I’m pretty sure no one held a gun to their head and was forced to get a loan.  They were all consenting adults who made a risk/reward decision.

What I'd like to know is why a grown adult, much older and wiser than an 18 year old kid starting college, can file for bankruptcy, sometimes because the gobmint went after them for things like pollution, but that kid is on the hook for life?  Who thought it was such a great idea to target college students while letting criminals file for bankruptcy?  Was it just because the kids were an easy mark?  

As far as what the debt has become, you can blame that on predatory lending.  The debt skyrocketed right after Bush nailed college kids with that permanent debt.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Did I mention “fuck you”!  Pay off your own fucking debts.  

You should mention that to your boy Shitstain, he being the king of bankruptcies. By comparison, the Kenyan was a United States Senator when he finally finished paying off his student debts.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Olsonist said:
9 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Did I mention “fuck you”!  Pay off your own fucking debts.  

You should mention that to your boy Shitstain, he being the king of bankruptcies.

Wouldn't that be interesting - reversing Trump's bankruptcies and forgiven loans and making him pay off all his debts. 

Jeff, you need to send that message to our president.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Is your idea the current system is so perfect you can determine which majors and which students will have good prospects and earnings 4-6 years down the road? Bluntly  you are an idiot if you think this. I can introduce you to a number of STEM students that thought they had great prospects only to graduate into a recession. Is it your view there is no difference between an English major that graduates from Eastern Kentucky University and Harvard University?

So your “solution” is to just keep piling vast sums of dollars worth of debt on kids? 

Those STEM students you speak of, how are they doing now compared to liberal arts majors from the same grad class? 

As for your examples the average student loan debt for a Harvard grad is small compared to Eastern KY.  Overall Harvard does a pretty good job of making sure qualified students can afford to go there  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, chinabald said:

As for your examples the average student loan debt for a Harvard grad is small compared to Eastern KY.  Overall Harvard does a pretty good job of making sure qualified students can afford to go there  

Fuck the poor, that's the chinabald way! 

how are those dreaded liberal arts majors doing? Professors, Doctors, Lawyers, Business people. Many doing pretty fucking well. The dirty little secret behind all the STEM dickwaving, particularly from engineers, is engineers wages a decade after graduation aren't that high unless they become entrepreneurs

But again - this is all about classwarfare from the right against the perceived liberal bias of establishment academia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Living in your mom's basement isn't social mobility.

Sucking on the government tit your whole life isn't bootstrapping. Just like capitalism without bad loans isn't capitalism. If "we" the government magically know who deserves loans and who doesn't, that's a great argument for socialism.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

1) why is my job to explain university costs?

2) how is that relevant to the discussion?
 

Taking on student debt is totally optional. Going to medical school is even more optional. I think the cost of higher ed is far too high. But it is what it is and a topic for a separate discussion.  And people who take out loans are betting on the cum that their earnings will offset their debt. And Iin most cases they are correct. How is it different than any other investment?  Why would you not expect to pay for that investment?

 Cost of education is definitely relevant!  Just as was said above there is no point to in covering everyone’s debt without addressing the cost of education.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Well first of all, I didn’t walk away.  I was able to finally successfully get a short sale approved.  And I suffered the consequences of that by taking a major hit to my credit rating for 7 years As well as a significant loss of my capital investment.  But for the sake of argument, even if I had - the taxpayers would not have been on the hook for repaying that loan, nor should they have been.  

Any other stupid messenger attacks to deflect from the question?  Why should $1.6T in student loan debt be absorbed by the US taxpayers?  Why should those borrowers be absolved of their responsibility that they chose to take on with zero consequences?  When do I get my reimbursement for the $60K in student loans I paid back in full?  

Well, it shouldn’t be forgiven and it won’t be. But the borrowers should have the same right you did to walk away. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fwiw, anyone that lends Trump any money not secured by assets is a fool.  And if they don't value the assets properly,  derated for his past performance, then they are doubly a fool.  Deutche deserves what they get.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

Fwiw, anyone that lends Trump any money not secured by assets is a fool.  And if they don't value the assets properly,  derated for his past performance, then they are doubly a fool.  Deutche deserves what they get.

I'm not going to disagree with that at all. But I'd really like a history and analysis of some of these loans. It's clear that Shitstain loves corporate personhood, bankruptcy and fraud equally. But for non finance types, a real investigation and analysis would be helpful. Seriously, why would anyone give this piece of shit a dime or do any work for him? As they say on sports blogs, don't they get cable?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Well, essentially single payer Higher education has to be the end result of this loan forgiveness then.  So Liz or Bernie wipe out all the current loan debt now. Fine, that essentially means that there will never be another college loan ever paid off by the borrower going forward, right?  I mean, why should a college student in a couple of years be expected to pay their loans when no one else is expected to now.  

So not only is their plan to forgive current debt, it is to make college “free” for everyone else from here on out.  And by “Free” I mean the taxpayers will pay it all.  How many more Trillion$ is THAT going to cost and how will they pay for it?

It keeps on falling out of pretty well every mathematical model that one of the biggest drags on the economy is graduate debt repayment.  Just when a person is in the position to effectively invest in the economy, it goes to feed a capital system that would have the money put to better use by a group ready to apply their skills.  40 year-olds do not tend to start businesses, buy washing machines, bring about positive change, etc...  All the things that bring about a positive economy.  The French economy looks like a rambling wreck but the basic culture of personal saving makes it ductile (strong and flexible).  In the same way a hidden strength of the Scottish economy was that they used oil royalties to make post graduate education for residents essentially free.  Economics is the allocation of scarcity by definition.  Payment of post-graduate education is a reallocation of what is now.  Probably to the better.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

Fwiw, anyone that lends Trump any money not secured by assets is a fool.  And if they don't value the assets properly,  derated for his past performance, then they are doubly a fool.  Deutche deserves what they get.

But it wasn't really all of Deutsche Bank, it was one division exec who almost certainly received a big kickback.

4 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

I'm not going to disagree with that at all. But I'd really like a history and analysis of some of these loans. It's clear that Shitstain loves corporate personhood, bankruptcy and fraud equally. But for non finance types, a real investigation and analysis would be helpful. Seriously, why would anyone give this piece of shit a dime or do any work for him? As they say on sports blogs, don't they get cable?

Well, look at the case of the painter who contracted for painting Mar-A-Lago, and got stiffed, and took years of suing Trump to get his money, then voted for the asshole.

They know he's a crook and an asshole. Some stick with him for personal gain, some because they like that all us Obama-lovin' non-Trump-supporters hate what he's doing to the country (or a little of both), and no doubt there are some who don't have cable but just notice the "R" after his name.

- DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Saorsa said:

An economy only needs so many geniuses .

That's one of the stupidest things I have seen from you, and that's going some.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Saorsa said:

Living in your mom's basement isn't social mobility.

 

Don't make this about you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

Fwiw, anyone that lends Trump any money not secured by assets is a fool.  And if they don't value the assets properly,  derated for his past performance, then they are doubly a fool.  Deutche deserves what they get.

Having Russia as a co-signer makes a big difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Well, it shouldn’t be forgiven and it won’t be. But the borrowers should have the same right you did to walk away. 

That's what I was thinking.  Just change the rules so students can welch on their debt the old fashioned American way, like Trump,  and declare bankruptcy.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Arent University graduates better paid than non graduates?

In theory.

Lot's of PhD's and the like out there driving cabs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Saorsa said:

An economy only needs so many geniuses .

Well it certainly won't be a problem that you contribute to.

So there's that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Saorsa said:

An economy only needs so many geniuses .

Well, the world needs contractors sucking off the govmint tit too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, benwynn said:

That's what I was thinking.  Just change the rules so students can welch on their debt the old fashioned American way, like Trump,  and declare bankruptcy.

My net worth the day I finished my undergrad was three figures with most of that wrapped up in a '63 Rambler and a bitchin stereo.  I could see giving all that up for debt relief.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

In theory.

Lot's of PhD's and the like out there driving cabs.

My ex BIL drives for a car service...Harvard grad.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Well it certainly won't be a problem that you contribute to.

So there's that.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The very generous post-WWII GI Bill 

more than paid for itself 

education is an investment by society in the future

disclosure - I used the GI Bill from my Vietnam service to get a phid  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Fuck the poor, that's the chinabald way! 

how are those dreaded liberal arts majors doing? Professors, Doctors, Lawyers, Business people. Many doing pretty fucking well. The dirty little secret behind all the STEM dickwaving, particularly from engineers, is engineers wages a decade after graduation aren't that high unless they become entrepreneurs

But again - this is all about classwarfare from the right against the perceived liberal bias of establishment academia.

Sure let’s just continue to pile debt on kids who can’t afford it or pay it back. Or in other words let’s let the big banks and loan companies continue to profit from poor teenagers who don’t know any better. That’s your way? Let’s put people into crippling debt situations because we didn’t want to differentiate between degrees that channel students into money making careers and degrees that channel students into part time Barista jobs. Hey they can always drive for Uber to help pay those 6 figure debts off. 

Class warfare my ass. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, chinabald said:

Sure let’s just continue to pile debt on kids who can’t afford it or pay it back. Or in other words let’s let the big banks and loan companies continue to profit from poor teenagers who don’t know any better. That’s your way? Let’s put people into crippling debt situations because we didn’t want to differentiate between degrees that channel students into money making careers and degrees that channel students into part time Barista jobs. Hey they can always drive for Uber to help pay those 6 figure debts off. 

Class warfare my ass. 

Nobody piles debt on you.  You go out and acquire it on your own.  If you don't figure out what load you can handle, YOU have a problem.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Saorsa said:

Nobody piles debt on you.  You go out and acquire it on your own.  If you don't figure out what load you can handle, YOU have a problem.

so only wealthy kids should go to college?  only those can can afford tuition?? or can afford to pay off $150k (plus) in 10 years?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

7 minutes ago, chinabald said:

Sure let’s just continue to pile debt on kids who can’t afford it or pay it back. Or in other words let’s let the big banks and loan companies continue to profit from poor teenagers who don’t know any better. That’s your way? Let’s put people into crippling debt situations because we didn’t want to differentiate between degrees that channel students into money making careers and degrees that channel students into part time Barista jobs. Hey they can always drive for Uber to help pay those 6 figure debts off. 

Chinabalds solution: defund physics, chemistry and math because undergrads don't make much money with these degrees.

mjs solution: bring state funding of universitys back up to what it used to be so state universitys aren't funding themselves by raising tuition. And yes, this would require raising taxes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Saorsa said:

Nobody piles debt on you.  You go out and acquire it on your own.  If you don't figure out what load you can handle, YOU have a problem.

Except they are taking advantage of teenagers here. Let’s be real, most 18-19 year olds don’t have a grasp of long term problems. Toss in the fact that most of them have been fed a line of bullshit that says a college degree equals high paying jobs. They aren’t told that not every degree has a set career trajectory. Not all degrees are equal, and the schools and certainly not the loan documents say so. That bachelors in phycology  isn’t useful without a masters degree that folllows, yet a bachelors in computer science is a likely going to lead to a good job. 

This college debt issue is real and needs to be fixed. Schools are too expensive and loan programs take advantage of students. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, chinabald said:

Except they are taking advantage of teenagers here. Let’s be real, most 18-19 year olds don’t have a grasp of long term problems. Toss in the fact that most of them have been fed a line of bullshit that says a college degree equals high paying jobs. They aren’t told that not every degree has a set career trajectory. Not all degrees are equal, and the schools and certainly not the loan documents say so. That bachelors in phycology  isn’t useful without a masters degree that folllows, yet a bachelors in computer science is a likely going to lead to a good job. 

This college debt issue is real and needs to be fixed. Schools are too expensive and loan programs take advantage of students. 

But we let them vote. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

In theory.

Lot's of PhD's and the like out there driving cabs.

... or building folding Optis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, chinabald said:

Except they are taking advantage of teenagers here. Let’s be real, most 18-19 year olds don’t have a grasp of long term problems. Toss in the fact that most of them have been fed a line of bullshit that says a college degree equals high paying jobs. They aren’t told that not every degree has a set career trajectory. Not all degrees are equal, and the schools and certainly not the loan documents say so. That bachelors in phycology  isn’t useful without a masters degree that folllows, yet a bachelors in computer science is a likely going to lead to a good job. 

Funny - I see lines like the bolded as part of the whole college debt scam. There might a job (depending on the economy) with a compsci degree but there isn't a good career for everyone with a BS in CompSci. There aren't careers for everyone with BS in Mechanical Engineering. There are careers for good coders & good engineers and a degree doesn't make you one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Funny - I see lines like the bolded as part of the whole college debt scam. There might a job (depending on the economy) with a compsci degree but there isn't a good career for everyone with a BS in CompSci. There aren't careers for everyone with BS in Mechanical Engineering. There are careers for good coders & good engineers and a degree doesn't make you one.

So your solution for the college debt scam is what? Allowing the banks to continue to put people in a trick bag and continue to dole out huge loans to people regardless of their future ability to pay? 

On the other side of this problem we probably aren’t all that far off on what we think needs to be done. College needs to be more affordable, no reason for a State school to have 10 Billion dollars in the bank and charge in state students 30K a year. FSU has a few boosters pony up 17,000,000 so they could buy out a football coach and are going to turn around and give 20mill to the next guy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, chinabald said:

 a bachelors in computer science is a likely going to lead to a good job.

Yeah? Not so much.

I spent my life in the mainframe industry so my wife's nephew came to me prior to college and asked me if he should take computer science.

I said no - he'd probably end up as a coding clerk eventually made redundant by machine generated code - much like a draftsman and CAD.

Instead I said he should take a more pure science like electrical engineering, which he did.

He graduated at the start of the tech boom, was solicited for a job designing chips and made a couple of million by his mid 20's.

I asked him if he would have gotten a job like that out of computer science and he said no - he'd be coding software.

I told him to remember that when I got old. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, chinabald said:

So your solution for the college debt scam is what? Allowing the banks to continue to put people in a trick bag and continue to dole out huge loans to people regardless of their future ability to pay? 

On the other side of this problem we probably aren’t all that far off on what we think needs to be done. College needs to be more affordable, no reason for a State school to have 10 Billion dollars in the bank and charge in state students 30K a year. FSU has a few boosters pony up 17,000,000 so they could buy out a football coach and are going to turn around and give 20mill to the next guy. 

Good to see that American colleges have their priorities straight.

Outside the USA we hear a whole lot more about your college sports heroes and draft picks than we ever do about the brilliant students who graduate.

Speaks volumes about your society.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, dacapo said:

so only wealthy kids should go to college?  only those can can afford tuition?? or can afford to pay off $150k (plus) in 10 years?

No, you have some odd implications in there that I never stated or intended.  Debt is a useful tool used judiciously.  If you borrow money for college, spend it on college stuff.  You don't really need a $2000 Razer Blade to do your homework.

USF in Tampa shows cost of attendance at 21,530 per year. living off campus not with parents.  That ends up at around 85K total for four years.  On campus is 23,446 including meals, living with parents comes to 16760.  You should be able to get some sort of scholarship, Financial Aid or part time work to control your borrowing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

I'm against it.  Education is an investment for which you expect a later return.  If you invested poorly, tough.  House drops in value, tough, you suck it up and still make the payments.  

Except its clear that the overall economy suffers when a chunk of consumers are stuck under old debts. It kills demand. Demand for cars, demand for housing, food, shelter, entertainment, etc. Fair bankruptcy laws enable an economy to shrug off bad investments. It works for companies, it works for individuals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Saorsa said:

An economy only needs so many geniuses .

Such a zero-sum-game outlook. Stupidity writ large.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

No, you have some odd implications in there that I never stated or intended.  Debt is a useful tool used judiciously.  If you borrow money for college, spend it on college stuff.  You don't really need a $2000 Razer Blade to do your homework.

USF in Tampa shows cost of attendance at 21,530 per year. living off campus not with parents.  That ends up at around 85K total for four years.  On campus is 23,446 including meals, living with parents comes to 16760.  You should be able to get some sort of scholarship, Financial Aid or part time work to control your borrowing.

How could you, a gov't engineer, work an entire career and not understand basic math?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, chinabald said:

Except they are taking advantage of teenagers here. Let’s be real, most 18-19 year olds don’t have a grasp of long term problems. Toss in the fact that most of them have been fed a line of bullshit that says a college degree equals high paying jobs. They aren’t told that not every degree has a set career trajectory. Not all degrees are equal, and the schools and certainly not the loan documents say so. That bachelors in phycology  isn’t useful without a masters degree that folllows, yet a bachelors in computer science is a likely going to lead to a good job. 

This college debt issue is real and needs to be fixed. Schools are too expensive and loan programs take advantage of students. 

And that is an abject failure of parents and schools.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

No, you have some odd implications in there that I never stated or intended.  Debt is a useful tool used judiciously.  If you borrow money for college, spend it on college stuff.  You don't really need a $2000 Razer Blade to do your homework.

USF in Tampa shows cost of attendance at 21,530 per year. living off campus not with parents.  That ends up at around 85K total for four years.  On campus is 23,446 including meals, living with parents comes to 16760.  You should be able to get some sort of scholarship, Financial Aid or part time work to control your borrowing.

just checking...I agree some debt is good, but college kids are drowning in debt even before they get a job and I believe that it's not all their fault.  My nephew is a freshman at RPI going for  Architecture.  The costs are out of this world ($54,00 per year) and I know that there's no way my brother has that kind of dough. That mean my nephew and brother are going to have a $200,000 debt in 4 years and have 10 year to pay it off (with exorbitant interest compared to a mortgage )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

How could you, a gov't engineer, work an entire career and not understand basic math?

21530 *  4 = 86120.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

How could you, a gov't engineer, work an entire career and not understand basic math?

Ever heard the expression "Close enough for government work"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Saorsa said:

21530 *  4 = 86120.

this part:

"You should be able to get some sort of scholarship, Financial Aid or part time work to control your borrowing."

How much is the minimum wage again?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

Ever heard the expression "Close enough for government work"?

I prefer “it’s good enough for who it’s for.”  Covers all types of organizations and clients.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, dacapo said:

just checking...I agree some debt is good, but college kids are drowning in debt even before they get a job and I believe that it's not all their fault.  My nephew is a freshman at RPI going for  Architecture.  The costs are out of this world ($54,00 per year) and I know that there's no way my brother has that kind of dough. That mean my nephew and brother are going to have a $200,000 debt in 4 years and have 10 year to pay it off (with exorbitant interest compared to a mortgage )

If he keeps the loans as Federal and doesn't let a private bank get them, then the interest is reasonable, and if he gets a job with a nonprofit or government, the entire loan is forgiven after 120 on-time payments.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Nobody piles debt on you.  You go out and acquire it on your own.  If you don't figure out what load you can handle, YOU have a problem.

A pretty standard Max Weber approach to economics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, dacapo said:

just checking...I agree some debt is good, but college kids are drowning in debt even before they get a job and I believe that it's not all their fault.  My nephew is a freshman at RPI going for  Architecture.  The costs are out of this world ($54,00 per year) and I know that there's no way my brother has that kind of dough. That mean my nephew and brother are going to have a $200,000 debt in 4 years and have 10 year to pay it off (with exorbitant interest compared to a mortgage )

If you are going into a program knowing that you will be 200K in debt at the end of it you have the beginnings of a cost benefit analysis.  It looks like entry level architects make between 30 to 50K per year according to a couple of on-line job sites.

Do the four years have to be sequential?  Could you take a gap year and work in an architecture related field to get some experience and save some money?

All of this education and debt are actually individual decisions and actions.  The idea that everyone should be a student until they are 22 years old and then find fulfillment is silly.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, benwynn said:

That's what I was thinking.  Just change the rules so students can welch on their debt the old fashioned American way, like Trump,  and declare bankruptcy.

I’m absolutely fine with that. At least then it’s not the taxpayers eating the loss. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Laker said:

A pretty standard Max Weber approach to economics.

Right wingers routinely demonstrate that they can't see much of anything except right now and yesterday for a few years back.

Anything outside that range is simply not part of their thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

this part:

"You should be able to get some sort of scholarship, Financial Aid or part time work to control your borrowing."

How much is the minimum wage again?

What does it matter?  Minimum wage is >0.  Not all jobs are minimum wage.

https://www.simplyhired.com/search?q=college+student&l=tampa%2C+fl&job=8LVmsj6QGZnYNDob3qBiS98p_ymqAg5cZiGSiGppnWSpZztuSX8h1Q

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, SloopJonB said:

Right wingers routinely demonstrate that they can't see much of anything except right now and yesterday for a few years.

Anything outside that range is simply not part of their thinking.

If you are talking about people 'drowning' in debt the future looks bleak.   Mostly because you look at the future without having a past to back up or put down your assumptions.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites