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Shootist Jeff

College Loan Debt forgiveness - WTF??

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2 minutes ago, lasal said:

US HS graduation rates are up to 84%, and at best 50% are prepared for University bachelor's programs. That's a long way from "everybody" being pushed into it.

Unfortunately what a lot of urban and rural working class kids hear in HS is that college is too expensive and an esoteric waste of time.

The message ought to be if you qualify by doing well in HS, which isn't that hard with some work, then colleges want you and the cost won't become a debt burden. And you can always weld pipelines or farm or builld or tend bar but maybe as an engineer or AG expert or businessanegement guru. Or just a stick welder a truck and a fat paycheck.

The larger problem is that college is being viewed as nothing more than a glorified trade school rather than an education for it's own value.  Our own political situation points to the problem of that approach in the outsized support of Trump by the non-college educated. What is the difference in education between the two? I would argue that a major difference is that college exposes a person to different fields in the general portion AND differing perspectives in the specialty.  It is the acknowledgement and treatment of differing approaches/philosophies/interpretations and how to analyze them to create your own that is the defining characteristic of a college education.  Or as someone else put it, "Training is about solving TODAY'S problems, education is about seeing and solving TOMORROW'S".

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I agree. That's why big tech hires fresh ivy league grads with philosophy or anthropology degrees etc., pays them $150k and trains them. They're looking for high grade CPUs not storage that will soon be deprecated.

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Or, to put it simply, education  makes one a better person. 

And to repeat, the post-WWII GI Bill was an engine of growth for half a century - at least 

and paid for itself many times over

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2 hours ago, lasal said:

I agree. That's why big tech hires fresh ivy league grads with philosophy or anthropology degrees etc., pays them $150k and trains them. They're looking for high grade CPUs not storage that will soon be deprecated.

They are looking for access to elite social networks.

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3 hours ago, lasal said:

US HS graduation rates are up to 84%, and at best 50% are prepared for University bachelor's programs. That's a long way from "everybody" being pushed into it.

Nevertheless the push is there.

It's the same here as I detailed upthread.

The fundamental societal attitude is that Uni is the primary option and everything else is a fallback position for the losers. It's largely unspoken or implied but it's real and very strong.

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26 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Or, to put it simply, education  makes one a better person. 

And to repeat, the post-WWII GI Bill was an engine of growth for half a century - at least 

and paid for itself many times over

Indeed - but the GI Bill covered a lot more than Uni - trade schools for example.

Your post reinforces the premise, even if unconsciously, that it was all about Uni. Education takes many forms from extensive reading & research on ones own to PhD programs.

It is the acquisition of knowledge, not the acquisition of a document. Our societies have lost sight of that.

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Nevertheless the push is there.

It's the same here as I detailed upthread.

The fundamental societal attitude is that Uni is the primary option and everything else is a fallback position for the losers. It's largely unspoken or implied but it's real and very strong.

It may be my imagination as I have no empirical data at hand, but I think that the everyone goes to college phenomenon may have passed its peak in the US.  It is still strong, but more and more you read and hear about jobs/careers in the trades and high tech manufacturing that allegedly pay well and do not require university education.

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11 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Indeed - but the GI Bill covered a lot more than Uni - trade schools for example.

Your post reinforces the premise, even if unconsciously, that it was all about Uni. Education takes many forms from extensive reading & research on ones own to PhD programs.

It is the acquisition of knowledge, not the acquisition of a document. Our societies have lost sight of that.

Come on man - no where did I write that it's all about the uni. 

In fact, all the progressive free tuition proposals cover trade schools and technical apprenticeships as well. 

But still, all of that should cover some history, art & music & lit - as do the German Berufsschule. 

And BTW, about half of European hs kids study calculus - here it is about 5%

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2 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Come on man - no where did I write that it's all about the uni. 

In fact, all the progressive free tuition proposals cover trade schools and technical apprenticeships as well. 

But still, all of that should cover some history, art & music & lit - as do the German Berufsschule. 

And BTW, about half of European hs kids study calculus - here it is about 5%

That's why I wrote even if unconsciously,

Sorry if I misinterpreted you.

As to calculus, that's only one aspect of what is an obviously broken public school system in the USA - you are falling behind faster & faster in the sciences. That's O/K though - Betsy will have that fixed soon.

It's an odd dichotomy since you have a grossly disproportionate share of the worlds best universities.

Maybe fewer lawyers & MBa's & more scientists would be a good idea but people largely go where the money is.

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Average cost of a four year degree in Canada - $ 14,000 usd 

for the US - $ 35,000 usd 

I wonder if trade school education is similarly different 

if this persists, the US will have to fall behind - no way around it 

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36 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

That's why I wrote even if unconsciously,

Sorry if I misinterpreted you.

As to calculus, that's only one aspect of what is an obviously broken public school system in the USA - you are falling behind faster & faster in the sciences. That's O/K though - Betsy will have that fixed soon.

It's an odd dichotomy since you have a grossly disproportionate share of the worlds best universities.

Maybe fewer lawyers & MBa's & more scientists would be a good idea but people largely go where the money is.

That's been a problem for a long time.  Our HS curriculum are not rigorous or demanding.

Read BJ's description of his son's coursework in the UK.  It was, in effect, a trade school.

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But back to the OP. 

Why is the Reich not bothered by the obvious fraud and grift that pervades the US for-profit higher ed ? 

Here is a good summary . .   https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-most-student-loan-fraud-claims-involve-for-profits/

For-profit colleges expanded dramatically over the past two decades, with enrollment rising from around 230,000 in the early 1990s to a record 2 million in 2010. They recruited aggressively, targeting non-traditional students — usually older people who had jobs and could only study part-time. They also focused heavily on women, people of color and veterans. But after graduating, many students struggled to find jobs that were promised to them or to transfer credits to other schools, leading to massive student loan defaults. 

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2 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

But back to the OP. 

Why is the Reich not bothered by the obvious fraud and grift that pervades the US for-profit higher ed ? 

Here is a good summary . .   https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-most-student-loan-fraud-claims-involve-for-profits/

For-profit colleges expanded dramatically over the past two decades, with enrollment rising from around 230,000 in the early 1990s to a record 2 million in 2010. They recruited aggressively, targeting non-traditional students — usually older people who had jobs and could only study part-time. They also focused heavily on women, people of color and veterans. But after graduating, many students struggled to find jobs that were promised to them or to transfer credits to other schools, leading to massive student loan defaults. 

That looks like an apologia for the 'finish HS and get a 4 year degree'.  Just another run through the process without consideration for the consumer.

There are a lot of people in that sort of situation.  Trying to improve their lives without having the capability of putting it on hold for four years.

When you look at degree requirements that include non-core pre-requisites for core courses or High School re-hash 101 it is actually discouraging to someone who wants to learn.

 

 

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Nevertheless the push is there.

It's the same here as I detailed upthread.

The fundamental societal attitude is that Uni is the primary option and everything else is a fallback position for the losers. It's largely unspoken or implied but it's real and very strong.

Yep

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1 hour ago, Saorsa said:

That's been a problem for a long time.  Our HS curriculum are not rigorous or demanding.

Read BJ's description of his son's coursework in the UK.  It was, in effect, a trade school.

When was the last time you were in a HS classroom?  The standards (districts generally don't provide curriculum because if the questions on the test provided for by the outside entity aren't in the curriculum then THEY are on the hook rather than the teachers) are rigorous and demanding but are undercut by admin forcing teachers to provide so many "extra chances" for the kid to do the work, covering up absenteeism, cooking testing data and pressuring teachers to change grades or give grades for nothing that the standards are left behind.  Also, not the kids, the parents, the admin or society as a whole gives a good goddam if the material is LEARNED but only if the grade is passed.  Why does admin push so hard for college attendence? Because the school, and therefore the principal, is evaluated by it's college admittance rate.  Not their 4 year completion rate but admission, just like OFFERING AP classes gets a school "points" on a eval but neither the kids taking the test nor passing it helps the scorecard.  

Just like any other bureaucracy, put out the numbers you want and middle management will figure out a way to provide those numbers.

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1 hour ago, Saorsa said:

Read BJ's description of his son's coursework in the UK.  It was, in effect, a trade school.

much 4-year STEM education in the US is effectively trade school. The difference is in the US it's much more expensive.

99% of the US doesn't give a fuck about math or science, why should the kids give a fuck about calculus other than credentialing?

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10 minutes ago, learningJ24 said:

When was the last time you were in a HS classroom?  The standards (districts generally don't provide curriculum because if the questions on the test provided for by the outside entity aren't in the curriculum then THEY are on the hook rather than the teachers) are rigorous and demanding but are undercut by admin forcing teachers to provide so many "extra chances" for the kid to do the work, covering up absenteeism, cooking testing data and pressuring teachers to change grades or give grades for nothing that the standards are left behind.  Also, not the kids, the parents, the admin or society as a whole gives a good goddam if the material is LEARNED but only if the grade is passed.  Why does admin push so hard for college attendence? Because the school, and therefore the principal, is evaluated by it's college admittance rate.  Not their 4 year completion rate but admission, just like OFFERING AP classes gets a school "points" on a eval but neither the kids taking the test nor passing it helps the scorecard.  

Just like any other bureaucracy, put out the numbers you want and middle management will figure out a way to provide those numbers.

I have no intention of ever entering a HS classroom again.  I do however meet and attempt to use the product of the process.

Having the federal government running the show with their testing is a disservice.  At best establish some stiff requirements for the three R's and leave the rest of the curriculum to local standards.

A fair number of HS actually work with local community colleges so that a course provides both HS and college credit for graduation.

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11 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

much 4-year STEM education in the US is effectively trade school. The difference is in the US it's much more expensive.

99% of the US doesn't give a fuck about math or science, why should the kids give a fuck about calculus other than credentialing?

Or anything else that's toooo haaarrrrrdddd.

So, tell me again, why should we lend people money who won't do the work?

You know, one of the things that kids complain about with math is that they don't see the relevance to their life.  Yet, when I get involved with a project with one and do calculations before starting the work they start to see what it means. 

We were painting a house as volunteers.  I took some measurements to calculate the area to buy paint and a kid thought that was really neat.  The fact that  I could multiply numbers in my head was positively astounding.  The kid was a HS student.

 

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3 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

I have no intention of ever entering a HS classroom again.  I do however meet and attempt to use the product of the process.

Having the federal government running the show with their testing is a disservice.  At best establish some stiff requirements for the three R's and leave the rest of the curriculum to local standards.

A fair number of HS actually work with local community colleges so that a course provides both HS and college credit for graduation.

:lol:

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4 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Or anything else that's toooo haaarrrrrdddd.

If hard were what mattered a Physics BS would be worth far more $ than it is today. Hard isn't what matters. Nobody gives a fuck about Hamiltonian's and no-one really has too.

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1 minute ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

If hard were what mattered a Physics BS would be worth far more $ than it is today. Hard isn't what matters. 

Why would a BS in physics be worth much?  Physics is a foundation course for engineering as far as I'm concerned.  If you want to specialize in it you need to find somewhere that wants to pay for your research.

 

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

But back to the OP. 

Why is the Reich not bothered by the obvious fraud and grift that pervades the US for-profit higher ed ? 

Here is a good summary . .   https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-most-student-loan-fraud-claims-involve-for-profits/

For-profit colleges expanded dramatically over the past two decades, with enrollment rising from around 230,000 in the early 1990s to a record 2 million in 2010. They recruited aggressively, targeting non-traditional students — usually older people who had jobs and could only study part-time. They also focused heavily on women, people of color and veterans. But after graduating, many students struggled to find jobs that were promised to them or to transfer credits to other schools, leading to massive student loan defaults. 

Who knows, but my guess is that when you're scamming people for a living, you don't see other scammers and you don't care about victims of fraud. You've already convinced yourself that scams aren't scams and people deserve what they get.

Trump starts a scam school and Trump says he'll protect people with preexisting conditions and present "the best" health care plan. It's a lifestyle.

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9 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Why would a BS in physics be worth much?  Physics is a foundation course for engineering as far as I'm concerned.  If you want to specialize in it you need to find somewhere that wants to pay for your research.

 

I don't want to confuse you, but things have changed. There's more than one kind of physics and more than one kind of engineering, now

- DSK

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

But back to the OP. 

Why is the Reich not bothered by the obvious fraud and grift that pervades the US for-profit higher ed ? 

Here is a good summary . .   https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-most-student-loan-fraud-claims-involve-for-profits/

For-profit colleges expanded dramatically over the past two decades, with enrollment rising from around 230,000 in the early 1990s to a record 2 million in 2010. They recruited aggressively, targeting non-traditional students — usually older people who had jobs and could only study part-time. They also focused heavily on women, people of color and veterans. But after graduating, many students struggled to find jobs that were promised to them or to transfer credits to other schools, leading to massive student loan defaults. 

The bullshitters will deflect like bullshitters always do. 
High Schools!

Trade Schools!

Oh My!

 

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11 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Why would a BS in physics be worth much?  Physics is a foundation course for engineering as far as I'm concerned.  If you want to specialize in it you need to find somewhere that wants to pay for your research.

 

I would take BS in Physics and put them to work in data analytics. Not exactly perfect, but close enough. I'd probably get an undergrad somewhere in the $120k range, whereas if the woman worked for 3 years and slapped on an MBA, she'd get closer to $200k in a couple years.

Why? A BS in Physics is an massive virtue signal. The person has a high IQ, can work damn hard, and will invest in themselves.

 

Soreass can't see it. 

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50 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Why would a BS in physics be worth much?  Physics is a foundation course for engineering as far as I'm concerned.  If you want to specialize in it you need to find somewhere that wants to pay for your research.

 

Physicists do, engineers follow.  

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1 hour ago, Saorsa said:

Why would a BS in physics be worth much?  Physics is a foundation course for engineering as far as I'm concerned.  If you want to specialize in it you need to find somewhere that wants to pay for your research.

 

At a previous company, our 2 best technical writers had BS's in physics.  They were smart, hard-working, and understood the technical side of things.  They were both pretty decent programmers too.

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I've worked with a couple of physicists.  Both very bright.  One pretty out going, another introverted.   Physics is definitely a labor of love but if you really want to know WHY something happens, physics is the best place to start.  Engineers are all about how and usually don't care much about why.

Just don't trust any physics text book that says 'and it logically follows' - it doesn't, and the derivation (although true) is usually like 5 pages long.

 

 

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One of my bros spent a career (one job as an adult) in physics at Sandia and I concur that the things he understands, he understands very very well. Can't explain for shit though. Like me, he leans well left. He once talked about a couple of Tea Party mathematicians at Sandia. This struck me as odd but then he said that mathematicians are not scientists. He said that without any irony or humor. In fact, bro is where jokes go to die (if my sister hasn't already killed them).

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the labs had an odd culture. a relative who was a mathematician down there insisted he wasn't a scientist. the only stereotype I can make about physicists I've met and worked with is they were damn bright individual performers and damn bright individual performers are in a positive feedback loop for odd behavior. be they scientists, musicians, lawyers, athletes, actors or authors.

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

That's why I wrote even if unconsciously,

Sorry if I misinterpreted you.

As to calculus, that's only one aspect of what is an obviously broken public school system in the USA - you are falling behind faster & faster in the sciences. That's O/K though - Betsy will have that fixed soon.

It's an odd dichotomy since you have a grossly disproportionate share of the worlds best universities.

Maybe fewer lawyers & MBa's & more scientists would be a good idea but people largely go where the money is.

Cal High schools have stopped requiring Calculus to graduate. Colleges still DO require at least one year of calc to enter. 

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9 minutes ago, longy said:

Cal High schools have stopped requiring Calculus to graduate. Colleges still DO require at least one year of calc to enter. 

Umm, no

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1 hour ago, Olsonist said:

One of my bros spent a career (one job as an adult) in physics at Sandia and I concur that the things he understands, he understands very very well. Can't explain for shit though. Like me, he leans well left. He once talked about a couple of Tea Party mathematicians at Sandia. This struck me as odd but then he said that mathematicians are not scientists. He said that without any irony or humor. In fact, bro is where jokes go to die (if my sister hasn't already killed them).

They actually aren't.  Mathematics is to Science as Linguistics is to English.  One is a collection of rules and relationships.  The other is Hamlet and Hemmingway.  Both require skill and deep understanding to master and being good at one doesn't make you good at the other.   I spent about five years explaining energy generation and storage methods to businessmen and they explained to me marginal economics and how to leverage regulatory offsets for maximum profit.  I do like " In fact, bro is where jokes go to die (if my sister hasn't already killed them)."  :)

 

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32 minutes ago, longy said:

Cal High schools have stopped requiring Calculus to graduate. Colleges still DO require at least one year of calc to enter. 

Utter bullshit. First, UC does not require calculus for admission. They require 3 years of math, even for engineering at Berkeley. Nor did California high schools require calculus for graduation. Some high schools offer calculus as AP courses. UC Berkeley offers math 1A to entering freshmen which is just brutal. 1B and 53+54 are easier.

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4 hours ago, Laker said:

Physicists do, engineers follow.  

Who designed the road and bridge that they travel?

I suspect that Engineers preceded physicists on the road to today.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Who designed the road and bridge that they travel?

I suspect that Engineers preceded physicists on the road to today.

 

 

Theoreticians have always preceded engineering.

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On 11/9/2019 at 5:07 AM, B.J. Porter said:

Ok, boomer.

The reason these questions are important is because the game has changed, fundamentally, since You Got Yours and now you're OK telling the rest to fuck off.

Let me give you a tale of three generations.

1) My dad,  class of 1963. Tuition was something like $1,200. He commuted from home on the weekends, but got a four year degree. He mostly worked his way through it, summer jobs, etc.  2019 Inflation Adjusted price: $9,917.09 What a deal, Ivy League, even! To be fair, my mom went to URI at the other end of the state at the same time and lived on campus for like half that.

2) Me, class of 1988. My senior year cost about $16,000 including room, board and tuition. The school picked up half the tab with grants, the rest was cash (summer employment, etc), loans (me and my parents), and work-study.  2019 Inflation Adjusted Price: $34,833.00 Expensive, but still around the price of a car.

3) Cost to attend the same school from 2019-2020. $77,490 Do I need to spell out the 2020 price? Do I need to point out that this is more than most people make in a year?

(My daughter doesn't go there BTW, she's at Bucknell which is a tiny bit less at $72,370/year)

 

In the meantime, "Entry Level" salaried jobs are requiring college degrees and actual experience and earnings have remained basically stable at lower levels. (Sidenote: Someone has to explain to idiot employers that you can't require experience for an "Entry Level" job just because you don't want to pay shit)

Now, it's true that everyone doesn't need to get a private education from a top college. But the fees and costs have escalated as much anywhere else. And college is the new high school diploma to do anything more than make coffee for people. State schools are more manageable, but they're not a one size fits all for everyone. (If my daughter had picked her 2nd choice school instead, I would have gotten a Two-fer. I'd be spending about 20% of what I am now on in-state FL tuition, while giving Soreass an actual stroke over the concept)

So the world has changed since you slaved and I our way through college by the skin of our own bootstraps. The entire workspace has changed, the economy has changed, and the baseline requirements to get a job has changed. We're mandating an educated workforce, then putting the workforce into debt-slavery to meet the minimum requirements.

You really need to look beyond your own nose every now and then.

 

Great post.

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56 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Theoreticians have always preceded engineering.

Walking a path is making a road.  Moving a rock to cross a stream is a bridge.  No theory, action in direct response to an environment.

Watch a baby for an hour.  Little learning machines experimenting all the time.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Saorsa said:

Who designed the road and bridge that they travel?

I suspect that Engineers preceded physicists on the road to today.

 

 

Who designed the CAD program that was the main tool in their design?  I have met few engineers that can actually take a partial differential equation anywhere.

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2 hours ago, Saorsa said:

Walking a path is making a road.  Moving a rock to cross a stream is a bridge.  No theory, action in direct response to an environment.

Watch a baby for an hour.  Little learning machines experimenting all the time.

 

 

I can't watch a baby for five minutes. Less if I don't have earplugs. I don't have to experiment with some things, I graduated a long time ago.

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There's a reason why disciplines like engineering are called applied science.

The science comes first.

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5 hours ago, Laker said:

Who designed the CAD program that was the main tool in their design?  I have met few engineers that can actually take a partial differential equation anywhere.

Were the Polynesian navigators astrophysicists?  The Australian aboriginals who could tell you how to cross the continent if you understood the dreamstime tales?

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20 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Were the Polynesian navigators astrophysicists?  The Australian aboriginals who could tell you how to cross the continent if you understood the dreamstime tales?

This has become a weird Team Howard v Team Sheldon argument!

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

This has become a weird Team Howard v Team Sheldon argument!

 

Bazinga!

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7 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

There's a reason why disciplines like engineering are called applied science.

The science comes first.

That really began with Otto Diesel

Before that, plenty of people... were they mechanics or engineers?... just built things and tried to make them work better. Steam engines existed for over a hundred years before anybody applied any math to how they work. Many types of weapons existed and were improved generation by generation for over a thousand years with no great understanding of the physics behind how they work.

- DSK

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3 hours ago, cmilliken said:

This has become a weird Team Howard v Team Sheldon argument!

 

 

 

This is wandering off into the land of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

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the big bang theory? so scientific cosplay? fits perfectly.

not sure what balls bouncing on the boat has to do with astrophysics, but google-master will tell us shortly.

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