Jules

What's The Attraction To Sheltered Cockpits?

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Outside of protecting yourself from the burning sun, what's the attraction to dodgers and biminis for day sailers and weekenders?

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Protecting yourself from the freezing rain?

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Keeps the companionway open in the rain for passing beers

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Outside of letting in light, what's the attraction of windows?  

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2 minutes ago, socalrider said:

Outside of letting in light, what's the attraction of windows?  

If Apple made a sailboat, would it have Windows?

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Other than keeping rain off, what is the attraction of umbrellas?

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26 minutes ago, Norse Horse said:

If Apple made a sailboat, would it have Windows?

No, it would have ports. You probably want to make sure they are protected.

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59 minutes ago, Jules said:

Outside of protecting yourself from the burning sun, what's the attraction to dodgers and biminis for day sailers and weekenders?

I was going to answer your question until you said that.

For those, it's the shade.

For my tubby ass offshore, it's staying warm and dry. You can take green water over that thing and it does not hit you.

Though in truth, the hard dodger makes a big difference even for coastal cruising comfort. We saw this more than once when it got snotty or lumpy in coastal sailing.

Two true stories, once I got the Hallberg-Rassy 53 with the center cockpit and hard dodger.

1) Came across a friend with a Beneteau 40.7 out at Provincetown that I raced in class with against at BIRW when I also had 40.7, so I knew the boat. We both were leaving in the morning to catch the tide at the Cape Cod Canal. We saw him leave about an hour before we did. The wind was dead nuts from the canal entrance, probably blowing 18-20 ish. We had to race to catch the tide, you don't want to miss it and have to motor into 4-5 knots of current. We left, and an hour or two later we caught up to my buddy in his boat. They were pounding into the chop, spray everywhere, foulies on, soaking wet. They had the tiny little canvas dodger that was ubiquitous on these things when you weren't racing them. As we motored past him in their misery, I was sitting under the hard dodger in a T-shirt, reading a paperback.

2) Also P-Town, on the way back through the CC Canal with a friend in a 36.7 and another in an X-41. With waterline and HP, again we hit the canal first and got through. We came out into a 20+kt Southerly at the southern end of the canal. With the tide rushing out at 5 knots behind us into that breeze there were steep standing waves, maybe 8' or more. Steep enough so that our dinghy, which sits on davits about six or seven feet off the water, got dipped in the waves and our speed got slapped down to 3-4 knots. In the middle of all this...a drop of water flew on board and landed on my elbow. Immediately, I got on the radio to my buddy boats and told them "Hey guys, get your foulies on." I was not wearing mine, which was why I felt the single drop. When they pulled into an hour or so after us everyone on the other two boats was sopping wet with salt encrusted in their hair. I had long since wiped the spot of water off my elbow. With the hard dodger though, we didn't get wet at all.

Of course those are lighter boats, with tiny near shore dodgers and no biminis. Not that a Bimini would have helped much.

But we have both a hard dodger AND a Bimini, as in the tropics you really want it to keep the sun off. And up north, we had zip-down side windows for the Bimini which turned the cockpit into a nice sitting area in cooler, windy conditions.

This is an old picture of the cockpit - there's a 12" Furuno MFD up on that port shelf now, and the binnacle has been completely redone. But you get some sense of how protected it is.

1191528_9.jpg.ea86b93b3fd728d713c9b9cfed5cf269.jpg

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I had a beautiful sail yesterday--12 knot trades, very flat sea state.  No foulies, no dodger, now worries.  But it's 86 degrees here, and despite the optimal conditions we all got pretty darn wet.  That same sail in 50 degree air or water would have been cold, would have required foulies, and would have made me really wish there was some way to mount a dodger on  my little daysailer.  

I also had 50+ zinc oxide all over, and despite a serious tan, got some color.  Make it an 8 hour sail with no dodger and I'd have had to wear full sleeves and a cap with a cape.  

If you're not racing and your boat has room, get a dodger and a (foldable, maybe) bimini.  Warm, dry, no sunburn.

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My first sailboat didn't have a dodger or bimini - the sun fried you, while rain and spray soaked you.  So many analogies to choose from... what's the attraction of convertible tops on open cars? Tooling around in an open car is great on a lovely not-too-hot day or a mild evening, but that just isn't always the case, right? 

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8 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

I was going to answer your question until you said that.

For those, it's the shade.

For my tubby ass offshore, it's staying warm and dry. You can take green water over that thing and it does not hit you.

Though in truth, the hard dodger makes a big difference even for coastal cruising comfort. We saw this more than once when it got snotty or lumpy in coastal sailing.

Two true stories, once I got the Hallberg-Rassy 53 with the center cockpit and hard dodger.

1) Came across a friend with a Beneteau 40.7 out at Provincetown that I raced in class with against at BIRW when I also had 40.7, so I knew the boat. We both were leaving in the morning to catch the tide at the Cape Cod Canal. We saw him leave about an hour before we did. The wind was dead nuts from the canal entrance, probably blowing 18-20 ish. We had to race to catch the tide, you don't want to miss it and have to motor into 4-5 knots of current. We left, and an hour or two later we caught up to my buddy in his boat. They were pounding into the chop, spray everywhere, foulies on, soaking wet. They had the tiny little canvas dodger that was ubiquitous on these things when you weren't racing them. As we motored past him in their misery, I was sitting under the hard dodger in a T-shirt, reading a paperback.

2) Also P-Town, on the way back through the CC Canal with a friend in a 36.7 and another in an X-41. With waterline and HP, again we hit the canal first and got through. We came out into a 20+kt Southerly at the southern end of the canal. With the tide rushing out at 5 knots behind us into that breeze there were steep standing waves, maybe 8' or more. Steep enough so that our dinghy, which sits on davits about six or seven feet off the water, got dipped in the waves and our speed got slapped down to 3-4 knots. In the middle of all this...a drop of water flew on board and landed on my elbow. Immediately, I got on the radio to my buddy boats and told them "Hey guys, get your foulies on." I was not wearing mine, which was why I felt the single drop. When they pulled into an hour or so after us everyone on the other two boats was sopping wet with salt encrusted in their hair. I had long since wiped the spot of water off my elbow. With the hard dodger though, we didn't get wet at all.

Of course those are lighter boats, with tiny near shore dodgers and no biminis. Not that a Bimini would have helped much.

But we have both a hard dodger AND a Bimini, as in the tropics you really want it to keep the sun off. And up north, we had zip-down side windows for the Bimini which turned the cockpit into a nice sitting area in cooler, windy conditions.

This is an old picture of the cockpit - there's a 12" Furuno MFD up on that port shelf now, and the binnacle has been completely redone. But you get some sense of how protected it is.

1191528_9.jpg.ea86b93b3fd728d713c9b9cfed5cf269.jpg

I've always liked the hard dodgers that HR produce - much nicer looking than many you see, presumably in part because they don't try and squeeze full standing headroom in under them. Out of interest, roughly what is the headroom at the forward end of the cockpit?

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I feel like I'm in a coffin when the dodger and bimini are up.  If I want to check the sails, I have to stick my head off to one side or go astern of the bimini.  It's hart to get in and out of the cockpit and you have to duck under the dodger to go down the companionway. 

The first dozen or so years I sailed, if the weather turned bad, put on the foul weather gear.  Watching the sails is part of what I love about sailing.  I want to see those telltales streaming back.  I want to be able to look up and down the sails to see how they are performing.  To me, if you can't do that, you might as well own a powerboat.

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10 hours ago, Jules said:

Outside of protecting yourself from the burning sun, what's the attraction to dodgers and biminis for day sailers and weekenders?

That is like saying outside of not starving to death, what is the attraction of food?

Where I live not having shade is MISERABLE for a good chunk of the year and not having wind and wave protection is miserable for another portion of the year. When it is cold and wet, I am under the dodger with a hot coffee and the autopilot remote.

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10 hours ago, JohnMB said:

No, it would have ports. You probably want to make sure they are protected.

Nah, they got rid of ports--and dvd players, and keyboards, and working on screenless iDevices now

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What's the attraction to sheltered cockpits?

To keep the fire pit from going out.

01515_4IrzUK3YIcq_1200x900.jpg

Page 127 Mocking ads from Socalrider

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10 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Nah, they got rid of ports--and dvd players, and keyboards, and working on screenless iDevices now

Hardware guy I take it. If you are only protecting the hardware ports you are probably heavily infected :).

 

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Just now, JohnMB said:

Hardware guy I take it. If you are only protecting the hardware ports you are probably heavily infected :).

 

LOL

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11 minutes ago, Norse Horse said:

What's the attraction to sheltered cockpits?

To keep the fire pit from going out.

01515_4IrzUK3YIcq_1200x900.jpg

Page 127 Mocking ads from Socalrider

“Here grumpy puppy! Let’s practice the fire jumping act for tonight’s show!”

- Stumbling 

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Here’s a vote in favour of “outside sailing” by a sissy Vendee Globe lady sailor, Pip O’Hare (currently transatlantic). :-) She’s on a very small budget (for a Vendee Globe campaign, and admits she covets the fancy new IMOCA boats other competitors have, but laments that they’re all way too sheltered, never really requiring you to go outside.  Realistic or not (I don’t think it is), ya gotta love her gung ho spirit!

Short self-shot vid of her aboard the other day, screaming across the Atlantic, playfully bashing those who practice “inside sailing”: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2414250105495040&id=1751709878415736

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2 hours ago, Jules said:

I feel like I'm in a coffin when the dodger and bimini are up.  If I want to check the sails, I have to stick my head off to one side or go astern of the bimini.  It's hart to get in and out of the cockpit and you have to duck under the dodger to go down the companionway. 

The first dozen or so years I sailed, if the weather turned bad, put on the foul weather gear.  Watching the sails is part of what I love about sailing.  I want to see those telltales streaming back.  I want to be able to look up and down the sails to see how they are performing.  To me, if you can't do that, you might as well own a powerboat.

So the OP was not really a question, more an opportunity to disparage people who enjoy sailing in a different way to you?

Personally I like sailing, I like people who like sailing, I like people who play on the water with other types of boat (even power boats!). I love that you prefer to be fully exposed to the elements when you sail. I love that BJ gets more out of his sailing when he doesn't have to wear foul weather gear pounding into lump.

Growing up we cruised on a family boat, my favorite place to be was tucked up in a corner of the spray dodger reading a book. Would not have been at all the same on a power boat. These days most of my sailing is coastal one design keelboats. No dogder no bimini, no need for either.

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1 minute ago, JohnMB said:

So the OP was not really a question, more an opportunity to disparage people who enjoy sailing in a different way to you?

Sorry you saw it that way.  That was never my intention.

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Like anything else with a boat it’s a compromise. Protection from the elements is good, but that same protection can also compromise the sailing experience, so I think the question is very context-specific. 

Personally I removed the dodger from my boat for servicing and never put it back on, but I use my boat mostly for day sailing and racing.

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6 hours ago, crankcall said:

because skin cancer sucks

And frostbite sucks. 

Ever sailed in a snowstorm or on water that was just above freezing? 

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I sail in lake ontario, the canada side. We have sailed in snow, hail, on water just above freezing and in all manner of pestulence. And i still had to get spots blasted off my forehead with liquid nitrogen from too much sun. 

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Geez, kinda a bunch of very sorta "guilty" "defensive" posts here...:P

There are certainly times when I've sailed with a dodger, and been very glad of it, and most of the posts here are actually from folks I respect and admire, so this is somewhat tongue in cheek as a response.  But the current trend of dodgers connected to bimini's connected to who all knows what else (the complete enclosures) seems like we've gone somewhat off track...after all, we don't ski in a bubble with a dodger and bimini to keep us protected from the elements...

In some ways, I think, it shows the migration from sailing as an outdoor adventure sport, to a leisure lifestyle activity...and hence maybe part of the reason in the decline in sailing in general.  Because from a leisure lifestyle standpoint, a motorboat is much easier, and more comfortable.

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I find in my old age that out sailing with friends, we all find it more pleasant if we're warm and dry.

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16 minutes ago, Crash said:

 we don't ski in a bubble with a dodger and bimini to keep us protected from the elements...

 

I have a lid for snowboarding which is kind of a bubble. :)

And I have fond memories of the 6 chair with a bubble top out the back of Tignes, there were a few windy February days which would have been much much shorter without it.

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6 hours ago, Jules said:

 Watching the sails is part of what I love about sailing.  I want to see those telltales streaming back.  I want to be able to look up and down the sails to see how they are performing.  To me, if you can't do that, you might as well own a powerboat.

I'm with this ^^^.  As a daysailer/weekender/summer-cruiser, the whole point is to feel like I'm, you know, sailing.  warm breeze in my face, the sight of the telltales happily streaming, the sound of the wake burbling behind me...

Yeah, when I was doing deliveries, a dodger made things a lot less painful when there was a timetable to keep and weather en-route.  And, yeah, I totally get the shade thing.  I have to be super-conscious of getting too much sun, although DryArmour's UV shirts and neck-gaiters have made that better. And I have a boom-awning that I can put up in about 5 mins if I want shade while sitting with a scotch and a good book while hanging on a hook.

But short of that, I don't "get" the people who basically build a sun-porch around their cockpit and never come out of it.  I was rafted up with a guy in August who had the full cockpit enclosure with zip-down panels... and a generator running to power the AC... on a gorgeous sunny-and-70  PNW day.  Yeah, he was "comfortable", but from my perspective he might as well have been at home in front of a video-game "sailing simulator".

 

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4 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Here’s a vote in favour of “outside sailing” by a sissy Vendee Globe lady sailor, Pip O’Hare (currently transatlantic). :-) She’s on a very small budget (for a Vendee Globe campaign, and admits she covets the fancy new IMOCA boats other competitors have, but laments that they’re all way too sheltered, never really requiring you to go outside.  Realistic or not (I don’t think it is), ya gotta love her gung ho spirit!

Short self-shot vid of her aboard the other day, screaming across the Atlantic, playfully bashing those who practice “inside sailing”: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2414250105495040&id=1751709878415736

Vendee Globe boats aren't known for comfort. 

I'm not racing.

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31 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I'm with this ^^^.  As a daysailer/weekender/summer-cruiser, the whole point is to feel like I'm, you know, sailing.  warm breeze in my face, the sight of the telltales happily streaming, the sound of the wake burbling behind me...

Yeah, when I was doing deliveries, a dodger made things a lot less painful when there was a timetable to keep and weather en-route.  And, yeah, I totally get the shade thing.  I have to be super-conscious of getting too much sun, although DryArmour's UV shirts and neck-gaiters have made that better. And I have a boom-awning that I can put up in about 5 mins if I want shade while sitting with a scotch and a good book while hanging on a hook.

But short of that, I don't "get" the people who basically build a sun-porch around their cockpit and never come out of it.  I was rafted up with a guy in August who had the full cockpit enclosure with zip-down panels... and a generator running to power the AC... on a gorgeous sunny-and-70  PNW day.  Yeah, he was "comfortable", but from my perspective he might as well have been at home in front of a video-game "sailing simulator".

 

I can see the tell tales just fine from my helm.

On a passage, I'm not usually sitting at the helm.

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7 hours ago, crankcall said:

because skin cancer sucks

 

1 hour ago, bugger said:

And frostbite sucks. 

Ever sailed in a snowstorm or on water that was just above freezing? 

We've stumbled onto a solution - forget the dodger, just keep the same bits of skin exposed to *both* the sun *and* the cold, and you'll save on the liquid nitrogen dermatologist bills.  

On a more serious note, having just paid another $1300 to the dermatologist as a pale bald white guy living in SoCal with a dodgerless boat, I do certainly get the appeal of a covered cockpit.  I like the MaineCat approach a lot even if it's not the most beautiful thing in the world.  Hard to figure out how that'd work well on a normal-sized monohull though.  

image.png.294875f4da4fe381e63b6eeff238dd68.png

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31 minutes ago, sledracr said:

But short of that, I don't "get" the people who basically build a sun-porch around their cockpit and never come out of it.  I was rafted up with a guy in August who had the full cockpit enclosure with zip-down panels... and a generator running to power the AC... on a gorgeous sunny-and-70  PNW day.  Yeah, he was "comfortable", but from my perspective he might as well have been at home in front of a video-game "sailing simulator".

We call those "Burp and Seal" boats.   I dont get the full enclosure unless its a ripping mess out there on anchor/mooring.

 

 

 

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My wife has no interest in an "Outdoor Adventure Sport" if said adventure is baking in the sun on a 90-100 degree day. YMMV on that one.

Our favourite downwind hot day rig is the big awning on the boom and the chute up.

* edit - the dodger does not block my view of the telltales at all.

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In lieu of a bimini, I use this simple rectangular sunbrella awning (PO put it together).  

Back end supported by a wooden batten, tied to backstay

Front end hoisted by mainsheet and a second line is run forward around the mast

Corners clipped to stanchions

Works really well at rest, and I can set it or stow it in probably 2 minutes.  As you can see, fitting a dodger to my boat is not easy without moving the mainsheet way way forward.  The boom is higher than pictured when under sail, but still pretty low by cruiser standards.  

IMG_0558.JPG.25cd9ad1470c932177fe999765014bcf.JPG

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From a power boat perspective I can tell you there's nothing like a full set of cockpit enclosures the minute the weather goes south with rain, cold weather or both.  Been through a few decent PM "pop up" summer storms where the poor guy with just a t-top has the wheel over doing hard circles getting, (them and kids and all) soaked.  We cruise by with wipers going and following the GPS nice and cozy.  I'm a fan.

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Good canvas extends your sailing on the cold and hot ends of the season IMHO. Why suffer when you don't have to?

I have a canvas cover for the foredeck that is really versatile as well. With the front angled up, it acts as sort of a wind scoop, with the front angled down I can leave the hatch open on a rainy day and in all cases it keeps sun out of the hatch.

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I have a dodger that is always up but think i might take it down sometimes next season.  But if it gets icky, it will go back up.  It's nice to have the companionway open when a bit bouncy and/or wet.

I have a $12 tarp I string up over the cockpit at anchor or tied up.  Works great, rigged it up so it fits well over the cockpit and wasily adjusted for the sun angle.

I do like not having an enclosure when sailing.  I have to be able to look up at the sails. But it is nice to be under the dodger when cruising with the autohelm on. Then peek out at the sails from time to time.  I've been on boats with topcovers etc. and don't like it.

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17 hours ago, JohnMB said:

No, it would have ports. You probably want to make sure they are protected.

It would have half as many ports as it needs and they wouldn't be compatible with any frames designed more than a year ago.

 

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4 hours ago, bugger said:

And frostbite sucks. 

Ever sailed in a snowstorm or on water that was just above freezing? 

My first regatta! In C420s. We didn’t have dodgers. I couldn’t feel anything below my knees.

Haven’t sailed in freezing weather since. But it was nice to be able to see the wind as an almost literal vector field.

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At 65 with thousands of inshore and offshore miles, I don’t need to prove I’m tough and I find skin cancer as I age and cold and wet on a night watch offshore very much over rated. YMMV.
 

I have a “CALIFORNIA” dodger with removable side panels and a roll up center window. I can shade the companionway and give the bride some sun protection without shutting off the breeze or feeling claustrophobic. My Bimini takes about 30 seconds to fold and cover or uncover and deploy. For rain at anchor or nasty times underway, I have a windowed connector that gets me about 1/2 way to an enclosure and provides great protection as BJ lays out and allow me to keep the companionway open for ventilation to avoid the steam bath or rain forest effect. 
 

For really nice days, no Bimini and an opened up dodger is just fine. 
 

I also have an open car but the top goes up in the rain or if I’m in slow traffic on a 100 degree day. 
 

 

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Sailing has become an inside sport. 

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The bimini holds my flexible solar panels that keep the fridge running that keeps the beer cold.

The dodger keeps my wife happy which keeps me sailing.

 

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1 hour ago, Training Wheels said:

Sailing has become an inside sport. 

A couple of winters ago coming home on a 28 degree night, I can assure you the dodger did NOT make sailing an "indoor sport" by any means, I was freezing my balls off.

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4 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

Vendee Globe boats aren't known for comfort. 

I'm not racing.

Absolutely.  As I said, her “justification” works for her - but is not realistic for many.  But I like that she’s drawing attention to how even the big IMOCAs, too, have become more sheltered.  But they’re hardly “sheltered” as we poor cruisers know it.

As for a cruising boat, how one can argue against a dodger is beyond me.  (A bimini is icing on the cake - probably quasi-essential for living in the tropics for any length of time.)  But those side window panel thingies, well, some things are just wrong :-)

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5 hours ago, RobbieB said:

From a power boat perspective I can tell you there's nothing like a full set of cockpit enclosures the minute the weather goes south with rain, cold weather or both.  Been through a few decent PM "pop up" summer storms where the poor guy with just a t-top has the wheel over doing hard circles getting, (them and kids and all) soaked.  We cruise by with wipers going and following the GPS nice and cozy.  I'm a fan.

Yes, but we all know that powerboaters are notorious chickens in bad weather...

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51 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Absolutely.  As I said, her “justification” works for her - but is not realistic for many.  But I like that she’s drawing attention to how even the big IMOCAs, too, have become more sheltered.  But they’re hardly “sheltered” as we poor cruisers know it.

As for a cruising boat, how one can argue against a dodger is beyond me.  (A bimini is icing on the cake - probably quasi-essential for living in the tropics for any length of time.)  But those side window panel thingies, well, some things are just wrong :-)

Yeah, full enclosures are pretty fugly but a fried who lived aboard had one that he used in port and having a winter “porch” kept snow, ice and wet out of the boat and provided a bit of a sun room on clear but cold days. I don’t believe he ever got underway with the “walls” in place nor did he use them at anchor. 

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Friend had an HR352.  Helped him schlep it north about 175 miles so he could get the boat to some great gunkholing and cruising grounds.  That hard dodger was most welcome when we were beating into 6’+ waves.  Left the companionway open and the Espar cabin heater on dry. Enough of that heated air made it to the cockpit so that full foulies were not required.  Owner is a Swedish citizen (dual citizenship).  Ligionberry pancakes for breakfast.  Sure beats eating MREs sitting on the rail at 4am getting wet.

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21 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

I was going to answer your question until you said that.

For those, it's the shade.

For my tubby ass offshore, it's staying warm and dry. You can take green water over that thing and it does not hit you.

Though in truth, the hard dodger makes a big difference even for coastal cruising comfort. We saw this more than once when it got snotty or lumpy in coastal sailing.

Two true stories, once I got the Hallberg-Rassy 53 with the center cockpit and hard dodger.

1) Came across a friend with a Beneteau 40.7 out at Provincetown that I raced in class with against at BIRW when I also had 40.7, so I knew the boat. We both were leaving in the morning to catch the tide at the Cape Cod Canal. We saw him leave about an hour before we did. The wind was dead nuts from the canal entrance, probably blowing 18-20 ish. We had to race to catch the tide, you don't want to miss it and have to motor into 4-5 knots of current. We left, and an hour or two later we caught up to my buddy in his boat. They were pounding into the chop, spray everywhere, foulies on, soaking wet. They had the tiny little canvas dodger that was ubiquitous on these things when you weren't racing them. As we motored past him in their misery, I was sitting under the hard dodger in a T-shirt, reading a paperback.

2) Also P-Town, on the way back through the CC Canal with a friend in a 36.7 and another in an X-41. With waterline and HP, again we hit the canal first and got through. We came out into a 20+kt Southerly at the southern end of the canal. With the tide rushing out at 5 knots behind us into that breeze there were steep standing waves, maybe 8' or more. Steep enough so that our dinghy, which sits on davits about six or seven feet off the water, got dipped in the waves and our speed got slapped down to 3-4 knots. In the middle of all this...a drop of water flew on board and landed on my elbow. Immediately, I got on the radio to my buddy boats and told them "Hey guys, get your foulies on." I was not wearing mine, which was why I felt the single drop. When they pulled into an hour or so after us everyone on the other two boats was sopping wet with salt encrusted in their hair. I had long since wiped the spot of water off my elbow. With the hard dodger though, we didn't get wet at all.

Of course those are lighter boats, with tiny near shore dodgers and no biminis. Not that a Bimini would have helped much.

But we have both a hard dodger AND a Bimini, as in the tropics you really want it to keep the sun off. And up north, we had zip-down side windows for the Bimini which turned the cockpit into a nice sitting area in cooler, windy conditions.

This is an old picture of the cockpit - there's a 12" Furuno MFD up on that port shelf now, and the binnacle has been completely redone. But you get some sense of how protected it is.

1191528_9.jpg.ea86b93b3fd728d713c9b9cfed5cf269.jpg

This topic should be in cruising anarchy. Have the delivery crew bring the dodger and hook it back up. I have done a lot of racing and deliveries where I wish I could have a dodger,

 

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2 hours ago, gullwinkle said:

This topic should be in cruising anarchy. Have the delivery crew bring the dodger and hook it back up. I have done a lot of racing and deliveries where I wish I could have a dodger,

 

I don't think my dodger comes off without a Sawzall.

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16 hours ago, Jackett said:

I've always liked the hard dodgers that HR produce - much nicer looking than many you see, presumably in part because they don't try and squeeze full standing headroom in under them. Out of interest, roughly what is the headroom at the forward end of the cockpit?

I'm reasonably certain my wife can stand up under it. She's the shortest one on the boat at 5'4". I'll ask her tomorrow, I don't remember.

By the time it starts getting really low you're down the companionway.

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I think uncovered cockpits are reserved for traditionalists, sadists and racers.  And yes we have a uncovered cockpit but a pilot house.  All the fancy ideals go out the window in a gale when you are getting soaked for 5 hrs.  But the sun is soooo huge.  We put up a Costco beach umbrella when it's not blowing to hard but having a permanent solution is in the works.  There are so many tasteful solutions out there that can give you everything, cover and being able to see the sails etc.  I think the bare cockpit argument is pretty useless.  There are plenty of horrible boat tents out there, and a bazillion post thread on here to back it up.  It all comes down to why be miserable when you are on your boat rain or shine.

 

The HRs are still my favorite production boat.  Spent a while commissioning them in the tail end of the dot com boom in Seattle, but way out of the price range then.

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I used to have the same thought about dodgers being for old people and powerboaters (even sailing around the PNW in winter) until I went from Victoria to Mexico without a dodger. It sucked.

Now I have one and it makes suuucch a difference

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12 hours ago, Crash said:

after all, we don't ski in a bubble with a dodger and bimini to keep us protected from the elements...

Doing the Nordic stuff for few days without possibility to shower and sleeping outside... maybe the bubble with dodger and bimini would be nice.

Horses for courses. Dodger, let alone bimini would be no go for me when racing. Daysailing would be postponed for another day if the forecast would suggest a need for one. Longer passages I'd rather stay dry and warm.

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I think permanently sheltered cockpits suck arse big time. 

But it depends on where you sail. 

In Greece where I sailed 6 seasons I could not think of anything worse. My dodger was almost always folded down , but my bimini was up a lot. 

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1 hour ago, The Dark Knight said:

I think permanently sheltered cockpits suck arse big time. 

But it depends on where you sail. 

Longer passages out of Melbourne can get properly cold any time of year. I sold my soul for a beanie on one trip back in early Jan.

A 4 hour watch on passage is a lot nicer huddled into the corner of a dodger than facing into the wind and spray. After an hour driving facing into cold, wet spray, I'm all done. But I can manage 4 plus hours if sheltered.

For a cruising boat on auto pilot, a dodger that comes back just far enough so you are protected in the forward corners, yet low enough to see over, is a wonderful thing. As long as you have enough room to winch properly of course. I got the one on our cruising boat just about right, but six inches longer so I could stay dry when there is no wind and rain is coming straight down, or in the shade with sun overhead,  would have been perfect. Full protection when you want, but still enough cockpit for full visability and sail control when you are driving. Just a pity that most hard dodgers are so fugly, but I'd still try very hard to have one if I was to get another live aboard boat.

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at a point , unless the boat is raced a fixed top makes so much sense. We have travelled and sat in a wet cockpit on a rain day in harbor, the inside of the boat gets soaked, the dog gets soaked .  I get the Captains Courageous thing , spray in my face. For me that looses appeal quickly.

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1 hour ago, Se7en said:

Longer passages out of Melbourne can get properly cold any time of year. I sold my soul for a beanie on one trip back in early Jan.

A 4 hour watch on passage is a lot nicer huddled into the corner of a dodger than facing into the wind and spray. After an hour driving facing into cold, wet spray, I'm all done. But I can manage 4 plus hours if sheltered.

For a cruising boat on auto pilot, a dodger that comes back just far enough so you are protected in the forward corners, yet low enough to see over, is a wonderful thing. As long as you have enough room to winch properly of course. I got the one on our cruising boat just about right, but six inches longer so I could stay dry when there is no wind and rain is coming straight down, or in the shade with sun overhead,  would have been perfect. Full protection when you want, but still enough cockpit for full visability and sail control when you are driving. Just a pity that most hard dodgers are so fugly, but I'd still try very hard to have one if I was to get another live aboard boat.

There were times in Greece when it was blowing, 35-50 knots, waves sending lot's of spray over the deck, so then I was happy to have the AP on and under the dodger. My boat's bimini had a 6 inch overlap of the dodger and was just 2 inches higher, so I could stay dry when it rained and also had a clear view.

I appreciate the protection, but i'd never want to give up the option to fold the dodger and bimini away on the nice days. 

I have no interest in sailing anywhere that would make me want hard protection ;)

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21 hours ago, Norse Horse said:

What's the attraction to sheltered cockpits?

To keep the fire pit from going out.

01515_4IrzUK3YIcq_1200x900.jpg

Page 127 Mocking ads from Socalrider

Yeah that is safe.Not a good idea to have with drunks around 

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17 hours ago, JohnMB said:

I have a lid for snowboarding which is kind of a bubble. :)

And I have fond memories of the 6 chair with a bubble top out the back of Tignes, there were a few windy February days which would have been much much shorter without it.

I stopped sailing in sandals a long time ago. I now ski in fully enclosed hard top ski boots. I also wear a helmet rather than the ole bobble top. 

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13 hours ago, Training Wheels said:

Sailing has become an inside sport. 

But still better than sitting indoors

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I think a nice Dodger (hard or soft) is a good thing. Mine only covers the companionway.  It keeps water out of the interior and I can hide under it.

This is a somewhat common full enclosure used in Puget Sound. We do use our boats year round so I suppose this could work well in the winter. Not my style. 

This one even has a windshield wiper

 

20191114_123652.jpg

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To quote a famous yacht designer, “my Helly Hansen is my dodger”

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Watch keeping settee. You could lie down in the far corner and have very good 270 degree visibilty. I could see the lowest set of genoa telltales. My wife sailed down the Washington/Oregon/California coast in her pyjamas and slippers. In September/October. I was more traditional and wore shorts and a T shirt. 

In our first boat, a 30' monohull we had a dodger. Did the same trip, same time of year in full foulies and boots.

Which trip do you think we enjoyed more?

Settee2sm-755642.jpg

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When we started our Atlantic crossing I found it a bit uncool that the boat had a permanent bimini.

...When we arrived at the other side I realised that I hadn’t used any sun blocking lotion during the whole trip. 

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8 hours ago, Amati said:

To quote a famous yacht designer, “my Helly Hansen is my dodger”

To quote his customers:

"My wife refuses to go near the boat and I got melanoma for the 12th time"

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13 hours ago, Great White said:

I think a nice Dodger (hard or soft) is a good thing. Mine only covers the companionway.  It keeps water out of the interior and I can hide under it.

This is a somewhat common full enclosure used in Puget Sound. We do use our boats year round so I suppose this could work well in the winter. Not my style. 

This one even has a windshield wiper

 

20191114_123652.jpg

At some point you could just go buy one of these instead:

Seriously, I think they would be great boats for someplace that is always cold and rainy. You would likely die of heatstroke where I live!

066874_image_extra_1_1600.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

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We have an open cockpit for enjoying the telltales and breeze with roll-up overhead canvas for shade

and a pilot house for staying safely warm when things aren't nice. The family is very, very happy to

sail in most mid-latitude conditions.

SA.jpg

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The ability to adjust the shelter to location and usage is the key. 

Lioness has a dodger, currently uninstalled as we are day racing on SFBay

When we took the month long lap around Cape Breton Island and the passage across Gulf Of Maine we had it up and were damn appreciative in wind/rain/fog. 

When we return to the East Coast and migrate between Myrtle Beach and LIS/Gulf of Maine I expect to re-install, and potentially make some type of a bimini that can zip onto the aft end and extend towards the helm allowing watch keeping to be under canvas.

If we are on passage, that's what the autopilot set to AWA mode is for, with a visual lookout to supplement the AIS/Radar.

A periodic scan of the sails to confirm trim and we are good. 

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On 11/14/2019 at 5:56 AM, Se7en said:

Longer passages out of Melbourne can get properly cold any time of year. I sold my soul for a beanie on one trip back in early Jan.

A 4 hour watch on passage is a lot nicer huddled into the corner of a dodger than facing into the wind and spray. After an hour driving facing into cold, wet spray, I'm all done. But I can manage 4 plus hours if sheltered.

For a cruising boat on auto pilot, a dodger that comes back just far enough so you are protected in the forward corners, yet low enough to see over, is a wonderful thing. As long as you have enough room to winch properly of course. I got the one on our cruising boat just about right, but six inches longer so I could stay dry when there is no wind and rain is coming straight down, or in the shade with sun overhead,  would have been perfect. Full protection when you want, but still enough cockpit for full visability and sail control when you are driving. Just a pity that most hard dodgers are so fugly, but I'd still try very hard to have one if I was to get another live aboard boat.

No problem with winch operations from under our dodger.

image.png.21c54224bff59f5277ef72682434e9db.png

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3 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

No problem with winch operations from under our dodger.

image.png.21c54224bff59f5277ef72682434e9db.png

Don't need a button, I've got voice activated remote control.

"Hey son, winch up the main"

(And he's only 12, so he'll keep working for a while)

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On 11/16/2019 at 9:04 AM, Se7en said:

Don't need a button, I've got voice activated remote control.

"Hey son, winch up the main"

(And he's only 12, so he'll keep working for a while)

Voice activated... I'll bet yours uses more electricity.

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On 11/15/2019 at 12:52 PM, oysterhead said:

We have an open cockpit for enjoying the telltales and breeze with roll-up overhead canvas for shade

and a pilot house for staying safely warm when things aren't nice. The family is very, very happy to

sail in most mid-latitude conditions.

SA.jpg

Is that an Atlantic 42?

Lovely boat

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12 minutes ago, KC375 said:

Is that an Atlantic 42?

Lovely boat

Yes, thank you. She's been fabulous for our adventures. That's our 12 yr old daughter flying over the dolphins

around the bow a couple summers ago. No need for a pilothouse on that afternoon.

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On 11/15/2019 at 2:24 AM, Zonker said:

Watch keeping settee. You could lie down in the far corner and have very good 270 degree visibilty. I could see the lowest set of genoa telltales. My wife sailed down the Washington/Oregon/California coast in her pyjamas and slippers. In September/October. I was more traditional and wore shorts and a T shirt. 

In our first boat, a 30' monohull we had a dodger. Did the same trip, same time of year in full foulies and boots.

Which trip do you think we enjoyed more?

Settee2sm-755642.jpg

I love that space. Huge hatches for ventilation and forward facing seating. Most cats have rearward seating for viewing... the saloon door, cockpit, and dinghy under the davits.

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11 minutes ago, longhorn said:

I love that space. Huge hatches for ventilation and forward facing seating. Most cats have rearward seating for viewing... the saloon door, cockpit, and dinghy under the davits.

One set up is for those who are interested in where they’ve been and one is for those interested where they are going.

Both allow you to see where you are better than from most Monohull saloons.

The forward orientation is one of the things I like about the Atlantics.

Underway I prefer the forward view. At anchor....having chartered a few condomarans...I do enjoy the social aspect of merging the inside and outside space.

Either set up is more attractive than the desk I type this from.

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On 11/15/2019 at 8:24 AM, Zonker said:

Watch keeping settee. You could lie down in the far corner and have very good 270 degree visibilty. I could see the lowest set of genoa telltales. My wife sailed down the Washington/Oregon/California coast in her pyjamas and slippers. In September/October. I was more traditional and wore shorts and a T shirt. 

In our first boat, a 30' monohull we had a dodger. Did the same trip, same time of year in full foulies and boots.

Which trip do you think we enjoyed more?

Settee2sm-755642.jpg

Looks really nice, but could you release the traveller or the mainsheet while inside?

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Of course not. But it was cruising cat with a conservative sail plan.  Not quite an Atlantic 57.

We have been hit by unexpected squalls while I have been on watch inside. Never found it to be an issue. I could be out in the cockpit in about 5 seconds but the back door is just to the left of the frame of the picture. You almost always get that puff of cold air in advance of the squall that would have me out in the cockpit looking things over before the shit hit the fan. Or a few raindrops. Generally while on watch on the couch I'd stand up and look aft every 10 or 15 minutes and usually step out into the cockpit. If there was much of a moon you can see the squall clouds coming. We usually didn't run the radar to see squalls unless it was a particularly bad night.

The genoa was the big sail on this boat with the main much smaller (genoa 530 sq ft verus 320 main). The genoa sheet was always taken out of the self tailing jaw and led to a cam cleat for fast release. I could furl the genoa very quickly and depower the boat that way. 

We did have one hit at 3 am where we were running with full main and spinnaker. The GPS was clicking from 10, 12, 14, and upwards as I dashed out to the cockpit and to the foredeck to get the chute down. Never felt like it was going to pitchpole or anything. Just overloading the boat and making us both anxious. Helps if  you have a badminton court sized foredeck to get the sail down, even with a good snuffer.

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2 hours ago, longhorn said:

Huge hatches for ventilation and forward facing seating

Yes they were wonderful 24" x 24" (600 x 600). Even when beating to windward, you could usually leave the windward open a bit and keep good airflow in. Downwind and at anchor it was like a wind tunnel. I hate cat saloons with tiny hatches.

Pay attention to the height of eye versus window position on cats. Many older cats had the windows well above eye height when seated. 

I liked the fwd facing settee underway and at anchor. Lots of guests did too, even other cat owners

 

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On 11/13/2019 at 6:02 AM, sugarbird said:

My first sailboat didn't have a dodger or bimini - the sun fried you, while rain and spray soaked you.  So many analogies to choose from... what's the attraction of convertible tops on open cars? Tooling around in an open car is great on a lovely not-too-hot day or a mild evening, but that just isn't always the case, right? 

I think as you get older, plus the knowledge of what the sun does to your body absolutely having a roof of some sort is very nice. I just sold my Miata to my son, I just couldn't take having the roof down on most days during the summer, it became an morning/evening in the summers only. Fortunately the Miatas all have very easy roofs to put up and down. I can't say the same about most dodgers! (plus when stowed they are ugly, unlike the Miatas)

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