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B.J. Porter

A Biden Hypothetical for our Right Aisle Friends

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Suppose, hypothetically, Hunter Biden WAS corrupt as fuck, his father knew about it, and they both pocketed millions while subverting U.S. policy and committing treason on behalf of nefarious Ukrainian oligarchs.

If we stipulate that the above hypothetical is true, would Trump's actions WRT the Ukraine and the Biden/Burisma investigations be legal and acceptable behavior?

 

I have an answer to this, but I want to see the right wing take before I answer it.

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29 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Suppose, hypothetically, Hunter Biden WAS corrupt as fuck, his father knew about it, and they both pocketed millions while subverting U.S. policy and committing treason on behalf of nefarious Ukrainian oligarchs.

If we stipulate that the above hypothetical is true, would Trump's actions WRT the Ukraine and the Biden/Burisma investigations be legal and acceptable behavior?

 

I have an answer to this, but I want to see the right wing take before I answer it.

If the U.S. has evidence of the above, then they should prosecute.   It's a chickenshit move for the U.S. to outsource its investigation. 

Encouraging foreign governments in general to root out corruption is fine.  To ask them to investigate an individual is sketchy.  Warrantless searches are generally the tools of tyrants.  To ask them to investigate an American citizen is wrong.  To ask them to turn over any evidence involving a US citizen is ok.  To ask them to turn over evidence of a foreign citizen gets pretty murky pretty fast.  

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It appears that Graham is going to investigate so we are all safe from corrupt nepotism.

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27 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

If the U.S. has evidence of the above, then they should prosecute.   It's a chickenshit move for the U.S. to outsource its investigation. 

Encouraging foreign governments in general to root out corruption is fine.  To ask them to investigate an individual is sketchy.  Warrantless searches are generally the tools of tyrants.  To ask them to investigate an American citizen is wrong.  To ask them to turn over any evidence involving a US citizen is ok.  To ask them to turn over evidence of a foreign citizen gets pretty murky pretty fast.  

True, but the investigation has to take place in the Ukraine with the cooperation of the Ukrainian government.

If warrantless searches are the tool of tyrants, perhaps a bit more internal investigation of our FBI and the intelligence community s needed.  Their actions in the last ten years seem somewhat overbearing.

I'm surprised that no one is demanding an investigation of Biden.  There will most certainly be a lot of revelation if he gets the nomination.  But, I think he's just a placeholder for someone else to be named later after the field gets sorted out.

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

Suppose, hypothetically, Hunter Biden WAS corrupt as fuck, his father knew about it, and they both pocketed millions while subverting U.S. policy and committing treason on behalf of nefarious Ukrainian oligarchs.

If we stipulate that the above hypothetical is true, would Trump's actions WRT the Ukraine and the Biden/Burisma investigations be legal and acceptable behavior?

 

I have an answer to this, but I want to see the right wing take before I answer it.

No....They are separate cases and should be decided on their own merits.

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56 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

If the U.S. has evidence of the above, then they should prosecute.   It's a chickenshit move for the U.S. to outsource its investigation. 

Encouraging foreign governments in general to root out corruption is fine.  To ask them to investigate an individual is sketchy.  Warrantless searches are generally the tools of tyrants.  To ask them to investigate an American citizen is wrong.  To ask them to turn over any evidence involving a US citizen is ok.  To ask them to turn over evidence of a foreign citizen gets pretty murky pretty fast.  

Speaking of asking foreign governments to help root out corruption. Seems some in the Ukraine are now asking that of us.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/biden-family-corruption-allegations-metastasize_3152905.html

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Team "R" is really pissing me off!  "Lap-dancer Lindsey" Graham- after doing a job on Erdogan (killing recognition of Armenian Genocide) jumped on Donnie's lap and is now going to make him happy by investigating Biden.

 

Don't get me wrong- like Donnie, it is becoming clear there is enough stink around Hunter Biden that something is wrong- but FFS someone beside  the Lap-dancer should be on this.

OK Rant over-----

FWIW- I put over/under line on Biden dropping out at 5 weeks.

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28 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

True, but the investigation has to take place in the Ukraine with the cooperation of the Ukrainian government.

If warrantless searches are the tool of tyrants, perhaps a bit more internal investigation of our FBI and the intelligence community s needed.  Their actions in the last ten years seem somewhat overbearing.

I'm surprised that no17 oakledge st arlington one is demanding an investigation of Biden.  There will most certainly be a lot of revelation if he gets the nomination.  But, I think he's just a placeholder for someone else to be named later after the field gets sorted out.

I think the FBI should be looking into any US laws that are being violated.  I'm really not a fan of 'extrajudicial' anything.  And if Hunter or anyone else is violating Ukraine law, we should thoughtfully considered any requests based on typical standards of evidence for US legal proceedings. 

Countries have agreements in place for such stuff.  I believe this is only complicated because we want it to be complicated. 

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33 minutes ago, Dog said:

Speaking of asking foreign governments to help root out corruption. Seems some in the Ukraine are now asking that of us.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/biden-family-corruption-allegations-metastasize_3152905.html

You really need to use better sources.

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6 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

You really need to use better sources.

Are you saying it's not true?

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Of all the problems in the world, the idea that just by random chance investigating a *political rival to the president* right before an election is just law and order is:

78f9ff303ee022f58872557b54099e03.jpg&f=1

 

Also note that usually the DOJ, their wholly owned subsidiary the FBI, and the State Department would be involved with investigating crimes committed on foreign soil by Americans with the official help of the host country through official channels. The president personally heading up the effort and having it run by a *private citizen who does not even work for the government* is straight up Nazi level bullshit, as has become Eva Dent. Even worse the "crime" has been debunked 1001 times by now. Joe Biden did not want the Ukrainian prosecutor fired for threatening to prosecute the wrong people, i.e Hunter Biden, he was fired because the USA and all of the EU wanted him gone because he was NOT prosecuting corruption. But the Rs will hammer that lie over and over I will bet anyone a nice dinner in Annapolis that about 95% of your righty friends "know" Hunter Biden was up to crimes and his dad saved him from Ukrainian justice :lol:

 

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1 hour ago, cmilliken said:

If the U.S. has evidence of the above, then they should prosecute.   It's a chickenshit move for the U.S. to outsource its investigation. 

Encouraging foreign governments in general to root out corruption is fine.  To ask them to investigate an individual is sketchy.  Warrantless searches are generally the tools of tyrants.  To ask them to investigate an American citizen is wrong.  To ask them to turn over any evidence involving a US citizen is ok.  To ask them to turn over evidence of a foreign citizen gets pretty murky pretty fast.  

That's kind of my answer too.

The Executive Branch doesn't really have the authority domestically to order an investigation on a citizen by our own government. The POTUS can suggest it, ask it of Justice, etc. but he can't really demand it be done. Investigations are supposed to be rooted in evidence and decided upon by the legally charged authorities, like the Justice Department, the FBI, etc. etc.

The executive coercing a foreign power to work against an individual is flat out wrong. Presenting evidence to our allies about the criminal activity and asking for their help where it crosses over to violations of our laws is perfectly fine. But withholding congressionally approved aid to force them to this sort of action without evidence of wrong doing and breaking our own laws? No.

Hunter Biden taking a 50K paycheck for a do-nothing board job is shady as fuck. And it happens all the time in the US and abroad. It's horrible optics with all the appearance of impropriety in the world, but on it's surface it's not actually illegal. It's only illegal if it influenced Uncle Joe to make policy changes, or was tried to use as influence. And there the lawbreaking is more in the influencer, not on the VP.

Is it any worse, really, than the white house "Sports Liaison" who makes $90K a year for doing next to nothing? The dumbfuck can't even get a decent meal for visiting athletes.

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12 minutes ago, Dog said:
19 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

You really need to use better sources.

Are you saying it's not true?

Is the same information available from a news source that doesn't stroke Trump, have a hard right bias, and report on Space Aliens and ESP?

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-epoch-times/

https://www.allsides.com/news-source/epoch-times-media-bias

The article you cited is quite out of breath hyperventilating, it's shouting almost as much as Gym Jordan.

That Burisma was corrupt AF is without doubt, but how much of that went to Hunter Biden and whether Joe Biden was influenced remains to be seen.

Whether the prosecutor who had stopped the Bursima investigations before Biden got him shitcanned is not subject to debate; Biden did NOT step in to halt Burisma investigations.

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1 minute ago, B.J. Porter said:

Is the same information available from a news source that doesn't stroke Trump, have a hard right bias, and report on Space Aliens and ESP?

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-epoch-times/

https://www.allsides.com/news-source/epoch-times-media-bias

The article you cited is quite out of breath hyperventilating, it's shouting almost as much as Gym Jordan.

That Burisma was corrupt AF is without doubt, but how much of that went to Hunter Biden and whether Joe Biden was influenced remains to be seen.

I'll take that as a no.

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1 minute ago, Dog said:

I'll take that as a no.

I don't know enough about Andrii Derkach to know his motivation for making such an allegation. But from what I'm seeing, that's what it is.

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6 minutes ago, Dog said:

I'll take that as a no.

You still haven't answered the question.

Are Trump's actions OK, withholding foreign aid as leverage to force an investigation against U.S. individuals in an allied country, even if his allegations prove true?

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19 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Of all the problems in the world, the idea that just by random chance investigating a *political rival to the president* right before an election is just law and order is:

78f9ff303ee022f58872557b54099e03.jpg&f=1

 

Also note that usually the DOJ, their wholly owned subsidiary the FBI, and the State Department would be involved with investigating crimes committed on foreign soil by Americans with the official help of the host country through official channels. The president personally heading up the effort and having it run by a *private citizen who does not even work for the government* is straight up Nazi level bullshit, as has become Eva Dent. Even worse the "crime" has been debunked 1001 times by now. Joe Biden did not want the Ukrainian prosecutor fired for threatening to prosecute the wrong people, i.e Hunter Biden, he was fired because the USA and all of the EU wanted him gone because he was NOT prosecuting corruption. But the Rs will hammer that lie over and over I will bet anyone a nice dinner in Annapolis that about 95% of your righty friends "know" Hunter Biden was up to crimes and his dad saved him from Ukrainian justice :lol:

 

Corrupt Ukrainians bought Joe who then used the threat of withholding aid to protect them and we have Biden describing the explicit quid pro quo. The case for investigating Biden is much stronger than the case for investigating Trump.

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8 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

You still haven't answered the question.

Are Trump's actions OK, withholding foreign aid as leverage to force an investigation against U.S. individuals in an allied country, even if his allegations prove true?

If that happened it's definitely not OK. 

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3 minutes ago, Dog said:

Corrupt Ukrainians bought Joe who then used the threat of withholding aid to protect them and we have Biden describing the explicit quid pro quo. The case for investigating Biden is much stronger than the case for investigating Trump.

Thanks Dog, no expensive dinner bill for me :D I am curious about Biden's superpower though, what mind control did he use to get the entire EU in on his scheme?

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36 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

That's kind of my answer too.

The Executive Branch doesn't really have the authority domestically to order an investigation on a citizen by our own government. The POTUS can suggest it, ask it of Justice, etc. but he can't really demand it be done. Investigations are supposed to be rooted in evidence and decided upon by the legally charged authorities, like the Justice Department, the FBI, etc. etc.

The executive coercing a foreign power to work against an individual is flat out wrong. Presenting evidence to our allies about the criminal activity and asking for their help where it crosses over to violations of our laws is perfectly fine. But withholding congressionally approved aid to force them to this sort of action without evidence of wrong doing and breaking our own laws? No.

Hunter Biden taking a 50K paycheck for a do-nothing board job is shady as fuck. And it happens all the time in the US and abroad. It's horrible optics with all the appearance of impropriety in the world, but on it's surface it's not actually illegal. It's only illegal if it influenced Uncle Joe to make policy changes, or was tried to use as influence. And there the lawbreaking is more in the influencer, not on the VP.

Is it any worse, really, than the white house "Sports Liaison" who makes $90K a year for doing next to nothing? The dumbfuck can't even get a decent meal for visiting athletes.

Well said, and THAT is the salient point - if there was a behavior on the part of the administration that demonstrates that VP Biden subordinated US interests in favor of his son's employer?   That would be actionable.  If not?  It's just poor optics.  I would say that if the VP did anything like that?  That both he and the person who asked for the favor would be wrong. 

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46 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Thanks Dog, no expensive dinner bill for me :D I am curious about Biden's superpower though, what mind control did he use to get the entire EU in on his scheme?

And a Republican controlled Congress

And the entire "Deep State" corps of professional diplomats

- DSK

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24 minutes ago, bootstripe said:

Trump was OBLIGATED by this treaty to investigate

 

https://www.congress.gov/treaty-document/106th-congress/16/document-text


TREATY WITH UKRAINE ON MUTUAL LEGAL ASSISTANCE IN CRIMINAL MATTERS

Try to pay attention... this is exactly what President Trump stopped by firing Yovanovich. She spent most of a day testifying about anti-corruption efforts in the Ukraine.

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

Corrupt Ukrainians bought Joe who then used the threat of withholding aid to protect them and we have Biden describing the explicit quid pro quo. The case for investigating Biden is much stronger than the case for investigating Trump.

OMG you’re dumb, ignorant or purchased! This is, by far, the best character test you’ve failed yet. 

The fact that your conspiracy theory which implicates Biden requires the entire US & European & Ukrainian government’s to be complicit, as well as somehow aligning official US policy with corrupt Ukrainians and aiding  Russian dreams of empire speaks volumes of your ability to ignore facts.

Well done, you have accepted that 2+2=5, Truth is lies, and you are finally  in the place where there is no darkness.

You love Big Brother 

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11 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

OMG you’re dumb, ignorant or purchased! This is, by far, the best character test you’ve failed yet. 

The fact that your conspiracy theory which implicates Biden requires the entire US & European & Ukrainian government’s to be complicit, as well as somehow aligning official US policy with corrupt Ukrainians and aiding  Russian dreams of empire speaks volumes of your ability to ignore facts.

Well done, you have accepted that 2+2=5, Truth is lies, and you are finally  in the place where there is no darkness.

You love Big Brother 

Please...Are we beholden to the Europeans. Are we going to use their wishes as justification for the use of our aid in a quid pro quo to strong-arm an allied country. As for the Ukrainian government supporting Shokin's removal you missed the fact that they are the ones who had to be strong armed to do it. There's a simpler explanation your ignoring.

BTW... Kent and Taylor both testified to never having seen any comparable action taken anywhere.

 

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43 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Try to pay attention... this is exactly what President Trump stopped by firing Yovanovich. She spent most of a day testifying about anti-corruption efforts in the Ukraine.

- DSK

And yet she new nothing about hunter biden.  hmmmmm....

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Just now, bootstripe said:

And yet she new nothing about hunter biden.  hmmmmm....

Umm, no.

What she said: I know of no credible information supporting the accusations against Hunter Biden

Which is what the others also testified to.

How much money is it up to? They keep jacking up how much he's accused of taking, at some point perhaps the number will be so impressive that Trump will ask for a seat on the board of Burisma himself.

- DSK

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9 minutes ago, Dog said:

Please..     ...     ...     ...

 

Dog code for "this is a desperate attempt to shovel enough bullshit fast enough to cover the facts"

See the "Dog Lies" thread

- DSK

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5 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Umm, no.

What she said: I know of no credible information supporting the accusations against Hunter Biden

Which is what the others also testified to.

How much money is it up to? They keep jacking up how much he's accused of taking, at some point perhaps the number will be so impressive that Trump will ask for a seat on the board of Burisma himself.

- DSK

You guys are really in denial.  

You believe some BS hearsay about the president's phone conversation but you wont accept Joe Biden bragging on national TV that he got the Ukrainian prosecutor fired who was investigating Burisma by withholding foreign aid.

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6 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Dog code for "this is a desperate attempt to shovel enough bullshit fast enough to cover the facts"

See the "Dog Lies" thread

- DSK

Non-responsive petty shit.

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Just now, bootstripe said:

You guys are really in denial.  

You believe some BS hearsay about the president's phone conversation but you wont accept Joe Biden bragging on national TV that he got the Ukrainian prosecutor fired who was investigating Burisma by withholding foreign aid.

Why did he brag about it, instead of trying to keep it secret like Trump did?

Why did he have the full support of US Congress to do so, and why was getting that prosecutor fired in accordance with US foreign policy at the time?

Lastly, why is testimony from people who were on the phone callS (plural, you don't seem to even have the basic facts correct) categorized as "hearsay"? Because they HEARD what Trump SAID?

- DSK

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Why did he have the full support of US Congress to do so, and why was getting that prosecutor fired in accordance with US foreign policy at the time?  Do tell

 

- DSK

 

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12 minutes ago, bootstripe said:

And yet she new nothing about hunter biden.  hmmmmm....

She knew nothing - and was supposedly an expert - I'd fire her ass too.  Incompetent bitch. 

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3 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Why did he brag about it, instead of trying to keep it secret like Trump did?

Why did he have the full support of US Congress to do so, and why was getting that prosecutor fired in accordance with US foreign policy at the time?

Lastly, why is testimony from people who were on the phone callS (plural, you don't seem to even have the basic facts correct) categorized as "hearsay"? Because they HEARD what Trump SAID?

- DSK

Because he's dumb as a stump.  Did you even watch the debate the other night?

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2 minutes ago, Dog said:
4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Why did he have the full support of US Congress to do so, and why was getting that prosecutor fired in accordance with US foreign policy at the time? 

 

  Do tell

 

1 minute ago, bootstripe said:

Because he's dumb as a stump.  Did you even watch the debate the other night?

 

Possibly so. But that is exactly the case. He COULD brag about it openly instead of keeping it secret, because there was nothing corrupt about it, and a Republican controlled Congress at the time thought it was fine.

oops

Oh wait, that's just another one of those facts, both of you please continue with your frantic labors to remain ignorant

- DSK

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21 minutes ago, bootstripe said:

You guys are really in denial.  

You believe some BS hearsay about the president's phone conversation but you wont accept Joe Biden bragging on national TV that he got the Ukrainian prosecutor fired who was investigating Burisma by withholding foreign aid.

It’s almost as if Biden did his colluding with the entire US government, which included obtaining bipartisan support for the goal of supporting Ukrainian anti-corruption efforts, and then announced his personal efforts on TV. 

All possible because secrecy wasn’t necessary.

Trump and his henchmen, on the other hand, did their drug deals in secret, refuse to speak about them in public, ignore congressional subpoenas a to discuss what became our shadow foreign policy, put conversations detailing their illicit bribes on secret servers, and do all of this  in contravention of official US policy with the very targets of anti-corruption identified as the problem. All the while they are working for Russia’s best interests and sewing chaos amongst our enemies while enriching the Prezs personal lawyer and his goon squad.

You’ve chosen to believe liars and corrupt officials with personal vested interests in corruption and covering it up. We believe the honorable men and women of the State Department and decorated war heroes.

Its really no contest, except Republicans value party over country. They would gladly jeopardize the rule of law for #winninng.

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

I don't know enough about Andrii Derkach to know his motivation for making such an allegation. But from what I'm seeing, that's what it is.

Lets see...

First off he is a pro Russian Ukraine Media owner/ politician. Owns the Era media group whose actual ownership structure may seem somewhat familiar, owned by another Ukrainian company, which belongs to an offshore company in Cyprus, the owner of which is indicated as an offshore company in the British Virgin Islands owned by Anton Symonenko who is Andrii  Derkachs assistant.

Known as a "disinformer" and given less credibility than Nunes in USA.

Andriy Derkach graduated from the military school in Kharkiv. In 1990-1993 he was a student of the Academy of KGB in Moscow.

He was a supporter of the pro russian ex president who had to run away to Russia. He is known for supporting the infamous set of Anti-protest laws aka “dictatorship laws” in his support, laws restricting freedom of speech and freedom of assembly passed on Black Thursday.

This was printed a while back in one of the leading Ukraine newspaper. Might give you a better idea and familiarity with names that are going to be cropping up in the US news soon.

https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/3-ukrainian-lawmakers-doing-trumps-dirty-work-in-scandal.html?cn-reloaded=1

 

Openly pro Russian Ukraine politicians (while Russia is in a war with Ukraine) are trying to exonerate Russia and blame Ukraine for the US election meddling. They also want to help Manafort and discredit the ledger that shows them benefiting from the corruption.

These guys know the art of political investigations and have been in liaison with Guiliani. Pro Russian Ukrainians supporting trump (any suprise?) throwing out accusations without any proof/heavily spun which is then used by the RW in US to justify trumps actions. Yeah the US is screwed. 

Trump may think what he is doing is just politics in an international way, using international players to benefit him and his party but yeah, he is absolutely an asset being played, being used to destroy the US. 

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

Corrupt Ukrainians bought Joe who then used the threat of withholding aid to protect them and we have Biden describing the explicit quid pro quo. The case for investigating Biden is much stronger than the case for investigating Trump.

You really should expand your news/opinion sources.

If you have any free articles left from the Times, i would recommend spending one on this piece.

What Joe Biden Actually Did in Ukraine

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/10/us/politics/joe-biden-ukraine.html

Mr. Biden worked Mr. Obama during their weekly private lunches, imploring him to increase lethal aid, backing a push to ship FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missiles to Kiev. The president flatly rejected the idea and dispatched him to the region as an emissary, cautioning him “about not overpromising to the Ukrainian government,” Mr. Biden would later write in a memoir.

So, Mr. Biden threw himself into what seemed like standard-issue vice-presidential stuff: prodding Ukraine’s leaders to tackle the rampant corruption that made their country a risky bet for international lenders — and pushing reform of Ukraine’s cronyism-ridden energy industry.

“You have to be whiter than snow, or the whole world will abandon you,” Mr. Biden told the country’s newly elected president, Petro O. Poroshenko, during an early 2014 phone call, according to former administration officials.

snip

Within months, though, the State Department began suspecting that the office of Mr. Poroshenko’s first prosecutor general was accepting bribes to protect Mykola Zlochevsky, the oligarch owner of Burisma Holdings, the gas company where Hunter Biden was a board member. In a February 2015 meeting in Kiev with a deputy prosecutor, a State Department official named George P. Kent demanded to know “who took the bribe and how much was it?”

The prosecutor general was fired soon after. But it wasn’t long before the new prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, was drawing allegations of corruption, including from State Department officials who suspected he was shaking down targets and intentionally slow-walking investigations to protect allies.

Mr. Giuliani has claimed, without evidence, that Mr. Biden’s push to oust Mr. Shokin was an attempt to block scrutiny of his son’s actions. In fact, Mr. Biden was just one of many officials calling for Mr. Shokin to go. Good-government activists were protesting his actions in the streets, as were eurozone power players like Christine Lagarde, then the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, along with Ms. Nuland and Senate Republicans.

snip

“The position regarding getting rid of Shokin was not Vice President Biden’s position; it was the position of the U.S. government, as well as the European Union and international financial institutions,” said Amos J. Hochstein, former coordinator for international energy affairs at the State Department and one of the few administration officials who directly confronted Mr. Biden at the time about his son.

Snip

(Burisma, a smaller, privately owned company, played no role in Mr. Biden’s pressure campaign, and administration officials could not recall whether the company was even mentioned in meetings the vice president attended on energy matters.)

By late 2015, American officials had grown so frustrated with Mr. Poroshenko’s sluggish response on all fronts that Mr. Biden was dispatched to make the case publicly for reforms to the Ukrainian Parliament.

That December, in a speech that he later described as one of the most important he had ever delivered, the vice president told legislators they had “to remove all conflicts between their business interest and their government responsibilities.”He also singled out the natural gas industry, saying, “The energy sector needs to be competitive, ruled by market principles — not sweetheart deals.”

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And BTW, Hunter Biden worked at one of the top ten law firms in the world for years.  His speciality? corporate governance for some of the top public companies in the US. His job on the Board of Burisma? Corporate governance. 

I mean it's not like he was as qualified as a slum lord developer son-in-law to the president ostensibly fixing the middle east, but still.

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3 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

And BTW, Hunter Biden worked at one of the top ten law firms in the world for years.  His speciality? corporate governance for some of the top public companies in the US. His job on the Board of Burisma? Corporate governance. 

I mean it's not like he was as qualified as a slum lord developer son-in-law to the president ostensibly fixing the middle east, but still.

And yet he never traveled to ukraine once or even speaks the language. 

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

 

Possibly so. But that is exactly the case. He COULD brag about it openly instead of keeping it secret, because there was nothing corrupt about it, and a Republican controlled Congress at the time thought it was fine. Do tell

oops

Oh wait, that's just another one of those facts, both of you please continue with your frantic labors to remain ignorant

- DSK

 

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6 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

If we stipulate that the above hypothetical is true, would Trump's actions WRT the Ukraine and the Biden/Burisma investigations be legal and acceptable behavior? 

I don't think the hypothetical even matters, for reasons outlined last month in another of the many threads on this topic.

For a more complete explanation, here's some Koch-$pon$ored Trump cheerleading:

Evidence Increasingly Indicates Trump's Ukraine Pressure Tactics Usurped Congress' Power of the Purse—and that he may have Committed a Federal Crime in the Process

Congress sometimes gives conditions under which aid may be withheld. They didn't. That means there are no such conditions. That means it can't be withheld, irregardless of any hypothetical reason.

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19 minutes ago, Dog said:
2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Possibly so. But that is exactly the case. He COULD brag about it openly instead of keeping it secret, because there was nothing corrupt about it, and a Republican controlled Congress at the time thought it was fine.....

Do tell

 

I just did.

You?

- DSK

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24 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

I just did.

You?

- DSK

Bullshit

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3 minutes ago, Dog said:

Bullshit

Nope, it's a fact. You yourself said Biden bragged about it. If there were some serious corruption involved, Biden may be dumb but he's not THAT dumb, hell even Trump is (barely) smart enough to TRY to keep his crooked deals a secret.

And the Congress WAS controlled by Republicans at the time.

Still "bullshit"??

- DSK

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1 hour ago, bootstripe said:

And yet he never traveled to ukraine once or even speaks the language. 

newfangled job description:  Translator

Do you know why US corporate governance specialists work all over the world for international corporations?  because the stock markets and SEC rules have made them the very best in the world at it.   I draft corporate disclosures for chinese companies for $450/hour but I don't speak chinese. Corruption!!!

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Giuliani was trying to cook up a story about one of the Fusion GPS principals being in Ukraine.

Good story. Trump and Giuliani are really desperate. Derangement is what happens when you start to believe your own bs.

https://nyti.ms/2OBjdaz

 

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16 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Nope, it's a fact. You yourself said Biden bragged about it. If there were some serious corruption involved, Biden may be dumb but he's not THAT dumb, hell even Trump is (barely) smart enough to TRY to keep his crooked deals a secret.

And the Congress WAS controlled by Republicans at the time.

Still "bullshit"??

- DSK

You said the Biden had the support of congress for his little quid pro quo, that's bullshit.

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1 hour ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

 irregardless 

c'mon tom your education has been going so well lately, don't backslide!

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26 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

   I draft corporate disclosures for chinese companies for $450/hour but I don't speak chinese. Corruption!!!

That just proves your a capitalist. :P

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20 minutes ago, Dog said:

You said the Biden had the support of congress for his little quid pro quo, that's bullshit.

???

No, it isn't, it's a plain fact. Congress was fully signed off on the foreign policy it came under, largely in support of NATO allies. They did not raise any eyebrows over it, and it certainly was not kept secret from them.

I guess that's the difference between the back-then we-hate-Obama Republicans and the nowadays we-hate-America Trumpublicans.

- DSK

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29 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

That just proves your a capitalist. :P

I defy labels.  i hate the idea of money but I'm ok with the reality of it.

:rolleyes:

 

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4 hours ago, Gone Drinking said:

She knew nothing - and was supposedly an expert - I'd fire her ass too.  Incompetent bitch. 

Stupid MF. Have another quart.

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7 hours ago, cmilliken said:

Countries have agreements in place for such stuff.  I believe this is only complicated because we want it to be complicated. 

Want? Need. They need it complicated, they need it confusing, they need baroque conspiracy theory because the simplest explanation is Donald Trumps a corrupt piece of shit commingling his personal interests with his office. The whole goal is to flood the zone with bullshit.

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57 minutes ago, Dog said:

You said the Biden had the support of congress for his little quid pro quo, that's bullshit.

You never stop being a lying cunt, do you? Biden was following US government policy. You might not like it - but that's true.

Trump was acting directly contrary to US policy and interests for his personal benefit.

Ask yourself, if you are even capable of, why you need the "deep state" conspiracy fantasy? Is it because you know the interests of Donald Trump do not conjoin with the interests of the US?

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7 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

That's kind of my answer too.

The Executive Branch doesn't really have the authority domestically to order an investigation on a citizen by our own government. The POTUS can suggest it, ask it of Justice, etc. but he can't really demand it be done. Investigations are supposed to be rooted in evidence and decided upon by the legally charged authorities, like the Justice Department, the FBI, etc. etc.

 

Anybody notice that the IG report is out and it appears that a Strozk minion has been fired for falsifying a document to get a warrant to investigate Ash Carter?

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4 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Anybody notice that the IG report is out and it appears that a Strozk minion has been fired for falsifying a document to get a warrant to investigate Ash Carter?

Anybody notice that Trump is guilty as fuck and is raving like a maroon?

No, didn't think so.

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7 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Anybody notice that the IG report is out and it appears that a Strozk minion has been fired for falsifying a document to get a warrant to investigate Ash Carter?

No not really. 

Kinda too worried about overt corruption in the WH and blatant tolerance by Republicans in the House and Senate to be worried about witch hunts into the Mueller investigation and CIA, FBI, DNI and State Department which raised red flags over the numerous conflicts of interests the Trump team produced by the dozens.

Im still waiting for Republicans to become concerned by the numerous  violations of security clearance rules and regs and electronic security this administration has committed.

Im still worried by how much Russia is winning, how corporate tax rates are zeroing and how our deficit spending is running rampant.

You are excited by investigating the “Deep State” But if you haven’t noticed, they are the true patriots whose testimony has so recently given you an example of how Republicans should behave. 

But alas, you’re gonna stick to ruining our country. Carry on.

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29 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

You never stop being a lying cunt, do you? Biden was following US government policy. You might not like it - but that's true.

Trump was acting directly contrary to US policy and interests for his personal benefit.

Ask yourself, if you are even capable of, why you need the "deep state" conspiracy fantasy? Is it because you know the interests of Donald Trump do not conjoin with the interests of the US?

Please....Biden was acting in the interest of the corrupt Ukrainians that own Bursima who had bought him and needed Shokin off their back. He acted in the interest of his son, his family and himself. Hunter has a long history of trading on his father's influence. With MBNA, as a Washington lobbyist, in Ukraine, Romania and China. Unlike Trump who derived no benefit from a theoretical quid pro quo, Joe Biden did derive benefit from an actual quid pro quo.

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5 hours ago, Gone Drinking said:

She knew nothing - and was supposedly an expert - I'd fire her ass too.  Incompetent bitch. 

Why the smear?  Sport?

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7 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

That's kind of my answer too.

The Executive Branch doesn't really have the authority domestically to order an investigation on a citizen by our own government. The POTUS can suggest it, ask it of Justice, etc. but he can't really demand it be done. Investigations are supposed to be rooted in evidence and decided upon by the legally charged authorities, like the Justice Department, the FBI, etc. etc.

The executive coercing a foreign power to work against an individual is flat out wrong. Presenting evidence to our allies about the criminal activity and asking for their help where it crosses over to violations of our laws is perfectly fine. But withholding congressionally approved aid to force them to this sort of action without evidence of wrong doing and breaking our own laws? No.

Hunter Biden taking a 50K paycheck for a do-nothing board job is shady as fuck. And it happens all the time in the US and abroad. It's horrible optics with all the appearance of impropriety in the world, but on it's surface it's not actually illegal. It's only illegal if it influenced Uncle Joe to make policy changes, or was tried to use as influence. And there the lawbreaking is more in the influencer, not on the VP.

Is it any worse, really, than the white house "Sports Liaison" who makes $90K a year for doing next to nothing? The dumbfuck can't even get a decent meal for visiting athletes.

Board positions are mainly about networking.   

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6 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

No not really. 

Kinda too worried about overt corruption in the WH and blatant tolerance by Republicans in the House and Senate to be worried about witch hunts into the Mueller investigation and CIA, FBI, DNI and State Department which raised red flags over the numerous conflicts of interests the Trump team produced by the dozens.

Im still waiting for Republicans to become concerned by the numerous  violations of security clearance rules and regs and electronic security this administration has committed.

Im still worried by how much Russia is winning, how corporate tax rates are zeroing and how our deficit spending is running rampant.

You are excited by investigating the “Deep State” But if you haven’t noticed, they are the true patriots whose testimony has so recently given you an example of how Republicans should behave. 

But alas, you’re gonna stick to ruining our country. Carry on.

So, corruption in the FBI is OK?  A serving VP can actually withhold authorized funds from a country until the prosecutor investigating a company his son manages is OK; and then brag about it in front of an international audience.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Amati said:

Board positions are mainly about networking.   

And rewarding good behavior.

 

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10 minutes ago, Amati said:

Board positions are mainly about networking.   

And influence peddling.

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7 hours ago, Dog said:
7 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

You still haven't answered the question.

Are Trump's actions OK, withholding foreign aid as leverage to force an investigation against U.S. individuals in an allied country, even if his allegations prove true?

If that happened it's definitely not OK.

It seems fairly clear that it happened.

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5 hours ago, Gone Drinking said:
5 hours ago, bootstripe said:

And yet she new nothing about hunter biden.  hmmmmm....

She knew nothing - and was supposedly an expert - I'd fire her ass too.  Incompetent bitch. 

It is VERY difficult to know something when there is nothing to know.

Unlike Devin Nunes and Gym Jordan, functional adults don't go skimming Infowars everyday looking for shit to go hounding off after.

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4 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

It seems fairly clear that it happened.

And when Dog agrees it happened he'll say it's not ok, but he doesn't give a fuck.

Republicans are never going to change, never going to wake up, never going to be decent people who beleive in facts or the rule of law. They are craven liars living in a bullshit cave of their own creation.

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20 minutes ago, Dog said:

And influence peddling.

To quote Swimsailor “have you ever been on a board?”

And before you ask, yes I have. And would you explain influence peddling on a board?

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

newfangled job description:  Translator

Do you know why US corporate governance specialists work all over the world for international corporations?

Because they have the most experience and best insight into how corporations routinely violate each & every law & regulation they think they can get away with.... USA exceptionalism at its finest.

FKT

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Just now, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Because they have the most experience and best insight into how corporations routinely violate each & every law & regulation they think they can get away with.... USA exceptionalism at its finest.

FKT

american exceptionalism is a thing but that's not the answer.

it's because we have the biggest and most regulated stock market.

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1 hour ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

You never stop being a lying cunt, do you? Biden was following US government policy. You might not like it - but that's true.

Trump was acting directly contrary to US policy and interests for his personal benefit.

Ask yourself, if you are even capable of, why you need the "deep state" conspiracy fantasy? Is it because you know the interests of Donald Trump do not conjoin with the interests of the US?

You do know that the President sets foreign policy?

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28 minutes ago, Gone Drinking said:

You do know that the President sets foreign policy?

Then why not just get rid of the State Department?  Think of the the savings!  No more Embassies!  Outsource everything on a for profit/user fee private business model! Our Beautiful president for life could get a piece of it all! 

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13 minutes ago, Gone Drinking said:

You do know that the President sets foreign policy?

Are you arguing the personal interests of Donald J Trump are the same as the interests of the President of the United States?

Congratulations on your desire for a banana republic you sad little sack of sexist racist trash! I just through in the gratuitous insult so you, in your alcoholic haze, could focus your few remaining brain cells on that. Charity if you will. Now go jerk off to another picture of AOC.

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11 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

Suppose, hypothetically, Hunter Biden WAS corrupt as fuck, his father knew about it, and they both pocketed millions while subverting U.S. policy and committing treason on behalf of nefarious Ukrainian oligarchs.

If we stipulate that the above hypothetical is true, would Trump's actions WRT the Ukraine and the Biden/Burisma investigations be legal and acceptable behavior?

No more than the bank robber who steals from the banksters. 

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3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:
4 hours ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

 irregardless 

c'mon tom your education has been going so well lately, don't backslide!

You misunderestimate how much I enjoy that word.

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So, what would happen if Biden withdrew From the race claiming he didn’t want to see his only remaining child destroyed and smeared, ruined for life by a cruelly vindictive Republican Trump cabal?  Would Trump still put him in jail?  Maybe his wife too, just to make things brutal enough?  How many years should the the Bidens serve?  Life?  Death penalty?  Trump pulling the trigger?  And laughing lustfully and manfully for the videos?

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4 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

it's because we have the biggest and most regulated stock market.

You may have lots of regulations on it but since they aren't enforced it's meaningless.

Or has something changed since '08?

Or since '87 for that matter.

American stock market and banking regs make the London barrow boys look like church deacons.

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6 hours ago, Amati said:

To quote Swimsailor “have you ever been on a board?”

And before you ask, yes I have. And would you explain influence peddling on a board?

It's selling influence. You don't think that the corrupt Ukrainians at Barisma paid Hunter Biden $3.1 million for his gas industry expertise do you, surely you're not that naive. They were paying for Joe Biden's influence and that's what they got when he used that influence to get Shokin removed.

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18 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

Suppose, hypothetically, Hunter Biden WAS corrupt as fuck, his father knew about it, and they both pocketed millions while subverting U.S. policy and committing treason on behalf of nefarious Ukrainian oligarchs.

If we stipulate that the above hypothetical is true, would Trump's actions WRT the Ukraine and the Biden/Burisma investigations be legal and acceptable behavior?

 

I have an answer to this, but I want to see the right wing take before I answer it.

No

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18 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

Suppose, hypothetically, Hunter Biden WAS corrupt as fuck, his father knew about it, and they both pocketed millions while subverting U.S. policy and committing treason on behalf of nefarious Ukrainian oligarchs.

But..... this is sort of what I predicted at the outset of this drama.  By limiting the scope of the impeachment hearings to only the Ukraine issue means there are too many ways for the US voting public to shrug and say "meh - it was sausage making.  Next."  

If you then discover that Jr biden actually was corrupt as fuck, then your case is dead in the water.  Yes, they are two totally different matters and what shitstain did was absolutely wrong and should be impeached for it - YOU and I know that because we are reasonably educated and engaged people who think for themselves.  But the vast majority (or at least a sizable chunk) of the 'Murican voting public is neither and they will only know that there was a "there" there and not concern themselves with the nuanced legalities.  It doesn' have to be right, it just is.  And that will not be limited to just the R's.  There are more than enough D voters who are, shall we say, not the sharpest spoons in the drawer and will also shrug.  

I said from the beginning of this that Nancy hanging her hat on the UKR phone call alone is going to be a loser for her and the D's.  The Russia collusion in the detailed Mueller report findings, emoluments, etc were by far the better play when combined with the UKR issue.  Nance should have checked "all of the above when it came to impeachment charges.  She played her very weak hand poorly IMHO.  It was at best a small pocket pair.  She folded the suited Ace/King Muller delt her earlier.  Shrug.

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