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BBC reporting a yacht sunk near Indonesia

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50530305

Quote

 

Four people - including two Britons - escaped after their yacht sank more than 50 miles off the coast of an Indonesian island.

The skipper raised the alarm after the boat, named Asia, hit an object in the water at about 21:00 GMT on Friday.

The UK coastguard, which helped co-ordinate the response, said the crew sailed a lifeboat to land, where they were found more than eight hours later.

 

I wonder if it is this one http://www.yacht-asia.com/

Make sure your emergency systems are correctly registered!

Quote

The UK Coastguard found no-trace of the ship on its records but did notice an alert on a US alarm system in approximately the same area.

 

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Probably bought a US coded EPIRB and had to register it on the US database. It's a dumb system. We bought an Ozzie one that had to be factory coded to Canadian registry numbers.

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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

Probably bought a US coded EPIRB and had to register it on the US database. It's a dumb system. We bought an Ozzie one that had to be factory coded to Canadian registry numbers.

That is standard procedure. Buy EPIRB, supply boat details, including mmsi number and the dealer programs it to suit. Often needs details of EPIRB first to take to relevant authorities to get the details needed to program.

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Yeah but not everyone understands this. Many ERPIRBs are not dealer programmable. The dealer is just a retail store selling you a box. Especially if you buy online. Some cannot be programmed to other countries (only found the 1 company in Oz selling EPIRBs that would do it for me. 

Just seems so cumbersome to do it this way. Why not 1 big IMO run SAR database?

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Wonder what they hit?

That thing looks like it could take most hits with only dents to show for it.

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I would suspect they hit an awash container on the sharp corner puncturing the hull below the waterline in a spot where they couldn't get at it.   It would take something like that.  What a nightmare.  9 pm so it was dark too.

That vessel had 6 heads.  I wonder how often all six were fully operational at the same time.

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9 hours ago, Zonker said:

Yeah but not everyone understands this. Many ERPIRBs are not dealer programmable. The dealer is just a retail store selling you a box. Especially if you buy online. Some cannot be programmed to other countries (only found the 1 company in Oz selling EPIRBs that would do it for me. 

Just seems so cumbersome to do it this way. Why not 1 big IMO run SAR database?

All the 406 epirbs are programmable, if the dealer claims otherwise they are not an authorised dealer. Country codes are part of the programming. An authorised dealer should not give one to a customer without programming it.

Yes, you can use one without programming but it is treated as a low priority by the SAR system. Mainly because of the number of false alarms they get. Registration gives them contact numbers, non-registration takes more time to make the call.

Either way it is not at all complicated. Certainly not as bad as some worldwide system that needs to be filled out. Maybe, sort of. Much like the guarantee cards that are never returned. Just more wasted time for SAR.

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Wonder what they hit?

That thing looks like it could take most hits with only dents to show for it.

Iceberg ?

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So many urban myths here.

All the 406 epirbs are programmable

No. 406 EPIRBs are not programmed at all. The IDs transmitted use a different numbering scheme, only the registration database contains both numbers. Some EPIRBs include AIS transmitters and the AIS transmitter does require programming with the vessel's MMSI.

Yes, you can use one without programming but it is treated as a low priority by the SAR system.

This is simply not true. These devices will work just fine as satellite EPIRBs without having been programmed; the SARSAT system knows nothing about whether the MMSI has been programmed or not. Only the AIS capability may not work or may transmit the uninitialized MMSI.

I would suspect they hit an awash container

There is no such thing as an awash container. I fully loaded 40' container floats about 2 meters out of the water. Any lower than that and it's sinking. Once it starts to sink, it's not going to magically stop sinking when "awash". Further, it was a steel boat with a maximum speed of 12 knots, I doubt they'd even here the sound of hitting a container.

 

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1 hour ago, Moonduster said:

So many urban myths here.

All the 406 epirbs are programmable

No. 406 EPIRBs are not programmed at all. The IDs transmitted use a different numbering scheme, only the registration database contains both numbers. Some EPIRBs include AIS transmitters and the AIS transmitter does require programming with the vessel's MMSI.

Yes, you can use one without programming but it is treated as a low priority by the SAR system.

This is simply not true. These devices will work just fine as satellite EPIRBs without having been programmed; the SARSAT system knows nothing about whether the MMSI has been programmed or not. Only the AIS capability may not work or may transmit the uninitialized MMSI.

I would suspect they hit an awash container

There is no such thing as an awash container. I fully loaded 40' container floats about 2 meters out of the water. Any lower than that and it's sinking. Once it starts to sink, it's not going to magically stop sinking when "awash". Further, it was a steel boat with a maximum speed of 12 knots, I doubt they'd even here the sound of hitting a container.

 

Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't containers float at varying heights dependent on the flotation of the contents?  I.e, one with barely positive bouancy could be awash?

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44 minutes ago, GMiller said:

Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't containers float at varying heights dependent on the flotation of the contents?  I.e, one with barely positive bouancy could be awash?

 

2 hours ago, Moonduster said:

....

There is no such thing as an awash container. I fully loaded 40' container floats about 2 meters out of the water. Any lower than that and it's sinking...

 

That depends / Sort of.

First calculate displacement of the container. Assuming its good enough to use 40’ by 8’ by 8’ for the container dimensions (actually 8.5 high or 9.5 if high cube but then deduct for corrugated sides etc...but wont change significant figures for this calculation) – you have 2,560  cubic feet which with sea water at 64 lbs per cubic foot gives you 163,840 pounds displacement at full immersion.

The container itself and contents have a maximum weight of 69,470 lbs. (BIG IF not overloaded, but even if the weight is under reported it would have to really really under reported to invalidate moonduster’s point). So a fully loaded container would be at about 42% , or have 58% reserve buoyancy...i.e. it would be about 2/3 above water.

But is that 2/3 of 8’ or 40’ or some other variation of how it floats which will depend on how the load is distributed and shifted. There may even be multiple orientations it can float at leaving it changing with wave action etc. but unlikely to be “awash”.

But all that assumes the container is and stays watertight. Containers deteriorate with use and with time floating around in the ocean. So then if the container floods you get to the question of the bouancy or not of the cargo. If the cargo is light enough that it displaces enough to float and also to float the container...i.e. if the cargo would absorb no water and completely filled the bottom 3.5 feet of the container when loaded – then the container would float awash even if holed.

So it could be 2/3 out of the water but still present a pointy corner at the water line or it could be leaking and awash.

But would that be enough to punch a hole in a steel yacht moving at 12 knots...Moonduster thinks not, I have not a clue.

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We've discussed this elsewhere.  I can say that having hit one in the Bay of Biscay at night and lost the boat in 45 seconds (we were in the water and the liferaft hadn't fully inflated) they can indeed be semi-awash.  We went walking around on it at first light, and not one bit was more than 2 feet above water.  One end was just at water level, and dipping below at times.  It had a bit of our GRP hull bottom stuck into a corner lug.

It must depend on what's in it, how much it's flooded, etc...  I'd agree that most sink, but some can float for a surprisingly long time, particularly insulated or reefer boxes.  They're impossible to see at night, especially in any sort of weather.

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1 hour ago, P_Wop said:

We've discussed this elsewhere.  I can say that having hit one in the Bay of Biscay at night and lost the boat in 45 seconds (we were in the water and the liferaft hadn't fully inflated) they can indeed be semi-awash.  We went walking around on it at first light, and not one bit was more than 2 feet above water.  One end was just at water level, and dipping below at times.  It had a bit of our GRP hull bottom stuck into a corner lug.

It must depend on what's in it, how much it's flooded, etc...  I'd agree that most sink, but some can float for a surprisingly long time, particularly insulated or reefer boxes.  They're impossible to see at night, especially in any sort of weather.

Had a delivery trip years ago when Gib Radio warned of at least 3 in the straits and 7 more reported nearby once out of the med. Blowing 25-30 odd knots upwind and we saw one just through the wave pattern.  With an increasing forecast, a vote of fuck this was called and we went to Portugal for a few days. 

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5 hours ago, GMiller said:

I didn't know they were sealed watertight.  But with 39 recently dead Vietnamese I should have guessed.

And the refrigerated units tend to be better sealed.

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6 hours ago, KC375 said:

Moonduster thinks not, I have not a clue.

Neither does he.

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2 hours ago, toecutter said:

I haven't seen a container awash, but I once witnessed a log thicker than a telegraph pole lying vertically that was periodically punching itself out a the water a considerable distance in tune with the chop and swell. It would have had the capability to smash the hull of a relatively large vessel if it had the misfortune pass over it at just the wrong time.

On the EPIRB/MMSI discussion. I could be wrong, but EPIRBS don't have an MMSI number. They have a Hex ID which is matched to an owner when the EPIRB is registered with the relevant authority. The authority may, or may not, provide the registered user with an MMSI but it is the Hex ID that is transmitted in an emergency.

Deadheads like that are probably the biggest danger around here - aside from the rocks anyway.

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18 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Deadheads like that are probably the biggest danger around here - aside from the rocks anyway.

Yes, indeed.  As far South as NorCal. 

Not to mention some of those river bars in OR and WA, and up your way too.  Quite nasty in an on-shore blow.

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6 hours ago, GMiller said:

I didn't know they were sealed watertight.  But with 39 recently dead Vietnamese I should have guessed.

I don't think a cause of death has been announced yet. Asphyxiation is certainly plausible as is hypothermia given the container temperature reportedly dropped to -24C. Tragedy in any case.

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In our last bad floods I was down at the mouth of the river watching a shit ton of trees and nasty flotsam merrily bump n grinding its way out into the bay, I made sure I didn't go sailing for a good month after that. Wood worries me more than steel, floats a lot longer and there is a lot of it. 

Geographical oddities need to be factored in too, I love whales, just not on my rhumb line .....they're like a shipping container with mobility....

Around 25,000 of them diverge around Tasmania and head up the east coast of Australia to Hervey Bay in Queensland. The other 35,000 or so travel up the west coast of Australia as far as Broome and the Kimberley. 

 

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11 minutes ago, toecutter said:

In 2008 we had something like 600mm of rain over 6 hours leading to "1 in 500 year" flood event. About a month later, I was out sailing about 20 miles offshore. The breeze was light and in the distance I could see what looked like a double ended tree floating along. With nothing better to do, I headed over towards it to have a closer look and was somewhat amazed to see the remains of a large tree complete with the root ball near on the same size as the branches attached. The thing looked like a dumbbell with it's symmetry floating in clear water. It also had an amazing collection of fish and other wild life residing around it, so it was a memorable experience.

Isn't nature cool to watch. Evolution and species dispersal continues to this day. "Rafting" seems to have been pretty important in dispersing species around the world.  Some fishermen in 95 observed the introduction of green iguanas (from Guadeloupe) arrive in Anguilla on uprooted trees.

Apparently humans have improved the opportunities for rafting as our detritus seems to float better and longer. Nearly 300 species hitched a lift from Japan to Oregon arriving in 2012 on a dock liberated by a tsunami in 2011.

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4 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

In our last bad floods I was down at the mouth of the river watching a shit ton of trees and nasty flotsam merrily bump n grinding its way out into the bay, I made sure I didn't go sailing for a good month after that. Wood worries me more than steel, floats a lot longer and there is a lot of it. 

We've had dead cows come past the clubhouse in big floods. That and island rafts with trees on them too.

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On 11/24/2019 at 2:33 PM, toecutter said:

I haven't seen a container awash, but I once witnessed a log thicker than a telegraph pole lying vertically that was periodically punching itself out a the water a considerable distance in tune with the chop and swell. It would have had the capability to smash the hull of a relatively large vessel if it had the misfortune pass over it at just the wrong time.

On the EPIRB/MMSI discussion. I could be wrong, but EPIRBS don't have an MMSI number. They have a Hex ID which is matched to an owner when the EPIRB is registered with the relev

ant authority. The authority may, or may not, provide the registered user with an MMSI but it is the Hex ID that is transmitted in an emergency.

I glimpsed a telephone pole diameter log of uncertain length in an inland reservoir on a choppy (white caps everywhere) heavily overcast afternoon.   I got a brief glimpse of nearly waterlogged green slime off my bow, tacked away, and couldn't find the damn thing again.   On a reservoir.   In daylight.   No way you would see it reliably on the great lakes or ocean, even if you were hand steering, watching the water surface for shifts and paying close attention.   We miss far more shit then we know about.   Likewise I've lost 3 or 4 caps, and recovered none of them.   

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On 11/25/2019 at 1:47 AM, Zonker said:

Watertight-ish. Depends on how worn the door gaskets are etc.

 

std containers are vented

if they float is all about the contents

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On 11/24/2019 at 10:13 AM, P_Wop said:

We've discussed this elsewhere.  I can say that having hit one in the Bay of Biscay at night and lost the boat in 45 seconds (we were in the water and the liferaft hadn't fully inflated) they can indeed be semi-awash.  We went walking around on it at first light, and not one bit was more than 2 feet above water.  One end was just at water level, and dipping below at times.  It had a bit of our GRP hull bottom stuck into a corner lug.

It must depend on what's in it, how much it's flooded, etc...  I'd agree that most sink, but some can float for a surprisingly long time, particularly insulated or reefer boxes.  They're impossible to see at night, especially in any sort of weather.

What a story!  I’d be curious to read your recollection of it —have you written it up elsewhere (blog/site), or here in SA?

(People I’ve spoke to in the past seem to think that this happening [hitting a container] is just some kind of “myth” - it probably doesn’t help that this occurred in a recent Hollywood movie, making some people either (1) immediately believe that it happens all the time and that sailing oceans is a death wish, or (2) disbelieve it does happen, i.e., that it’s just a dramatic and made-up Hollywood special effects kinda thing...) 

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21 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

What a story!  I’d be curious to read your recollection of it —have you written it up elsewhere (blog/site), or here in SA?

(People I’ve spoke to in the past seem to think that this happening [hitting a container] is just some kind of “myth” - probably doesn’t help that this occurred in a recent Hollywood movie, making some people immediately believe either that it happens all the time and that sailing oceans is a death wish, or disbelieve it does happen, i.e., that it’s just a dramatic and made-up Hollywood special effects kinda thing...) 

 

 

On 12/22/2016 at 4:45 PM, P_Wop said:

I hit one in Biscay at night on a delivery in 1976. Tore the bottom out of the boat, and the 4 of us were in the water, boat gone, before the raft was fully inflated. Not nice at all.

 

How did we know it was a container? Simple. We bumped into it in the raft just before dawn, and tied on to one of the corner rings so we could walk around on it. Stretching the legs.... most enjoyable. I engraved its number on a paddle with my knife before we had to cast off for fear of damaging the liferaft. 72 hours later we were picked up by a Korean (yes) fishing boat.

 

Two years of chasing a claim got us absolutely nowhere. Sure we knew the container number. Sure the vessel it was on was identified. But.... The denial daisy-chain of charter, sub-charter, owner, finance, insurer etc... was just disgusting. I gave up in the end.

 

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On 11/24/2019 at 1:13 PM, P_Wop said:

We've discussed this elsewhere.  I can say that having hit one in the Bay of Biscay at night and lost the boat in 45 seconds (we were in the water and the liferaft hadn't fully inflated) they can indeed be semi-awash.  We went walking around on it at first light, and not one bit was more than 2 feet above water.  One end was just at water level, and dipping below at times.  It had a bit of our GRP hull bottom stuck into a corner lug.

It must depend on what's in it, how much it's flooded, etc...  I'd agree that most sink, but some can float for a surprisingly long time, particularly insulated or reefer boxes.  They're impossible to see at night, especially in any sort of weather.

Do you think you could have seen it with radar?

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1 hour ago, gn4478 said:

Do you think you could have seen it with radar?

Possibly.  But being so low, the return would most likely have been lost in the surface clutter, as the corners going up and down would have looked a lot like waves. 

In any case, it was a Moody 29, so no radar.

Ones floating much higher, particularly corrugated steel ones, yes they should return a pretty good blip.

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going up biscay in a storm, get message over satcom that a ship in front of us has lost at least 30 containers but too rough to go and check maybe more...tense night on board that night

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On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 6:25 PM, shaggybaxter said:

In our last bad floods I was down at the mouth of the river watching a shit ton of trees and nasty flotsam merrily bump n grinding its way out into the bay, I made sure I didn't go sailing for a good month after that. Wood worries me more than steel, floats a lot longer and there is a lot of it. 

Geographical oddities need to be factored in too, I love whales, just not on my rhumb line .....they're like a shipping container with mobility....

Around 25,000 of them diverge around Tasmania and head up the east coast of Australia to Hervey Bay in Queensland. The other 35,000 or so travel up the west coast of Australia as far as Broome and the Kimberley. 

 

We've had heavy rains for a couple years in the mid-Atlantic, with some uncharacteristic sudden 4-6 inch rainfalls, so the main dam controlling runoff into the north part of the Chesapeake on the Susquehenna is routinely opened, allowing all the flotsam blown out of the hilly woods and streams in the watershed to blow into the Chesapeake.  Along with things like refrigerators, whole trees are not uncommon. 

Earlier this year we were racing and passed a log that was roughly 60' long, telephone pole sized at the skinny end - which looked pointy and axe cut - and much larger at the big end, which was almost entirely submerged.  The crew were non-plussed but I nearly crapped myself, that might have holed us pretty badly and it was hard to spot, even on that relatively calm day.  About ten minutes later though, I thought about scrapping the race to go back and recover that log.  Sinker wood is worth a lot of money and that thing may have been worth more than my entire boat.  Opportunities missed...    

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