billy backstay

What's in your arsenal??

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1 hour ago, billy backstay said:

Considering a Beretta 92FS for my first handgun, probably won't use for CCW, but it looks like a good possibility for that, if that changes.  OTOH, something a bit smaller might be more appropriate for CCW?....  Opinions?? Other recomendations?

Handguns. Lots of choices, some subtle, that make a big difference.  Are you committed to practice with a thumb safety till it requires no thought? When the shit hits the fan there is no time to pull out the manual of arms.  Okay, you choose a Model 92 but may get a 1911 (omg, I LOVE 1911s) in 10 years. Their thumb safeties work in opposite directions. Hmmm, muscle memory and all that.

Grip angle. The civilized world uses an 18° grip angle while Glock, a few .22s and assorted wierdos use a 22° grip angle. For some the Glock angle is okay, hence their popularity. For a lot of people the Glock geometry does not feel right and more importantly does not point naturally. This distinction is important. Consider that ~ 1/2 of self defense with handguns incidents occur at 8' or less. This means there is no time or space to aim. 

You need to get hands on with as many models as you can. No advertisement or internet bozo can tell you what works for you.

Buy; The Law of Self Defense: The Indispensable Guide to the Armed Citizen by Andrew F. Branca.
Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense by Massad Ayoob is good too.

 

 

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2 hours ago, billy backstay said:

Considering a Beretta 92FS for my first handgun, probably won't use for CCW, but it looks like a good possibility for that, if that changes.  OTOH, something a bit smaller might be more appropriate for CCW?....  Opinions?? Other recomendations?

I'm not a fan of the 92FS.  It's an "adequate" gun, but there are far better ones out there in that price range.  For one, its big and it's heavy.  I had to qual with them in the military every year.  I didn't find the ergonomics all that great.  It would definitely NOT be my first choice for CCW.  

I'll be the first to admit I'm a Glock Fanboy.  They.just.work.  Simple, reliable, accurate, light ......  and did I mention reliable?

If you want a handgun for CCW, I would highly recommend looking at the 9mm Glock 43x.  I find it's the perfect size and mag capacity for CCW.  I've tried a lot of handguns for CCW including larger Glocks, 1911s, a Walther PPS, etc and the 43x TO ME feels like the perfect all around CCW tool.  YMMV.

But the Beretta?  Nah, I'd pass.  There is a reason the US Army dumped it for the new Sig  P320 for their issue handgun.  

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10 hours ago, billy backstay said:

Considering a Beretta 92FS for my first handgun, probably won't use for CCW, but it looks like a good possibility for that, if that changes.  OTOH, something a bit smaller might be more appropriate for CCW?....  Opinions?? Other recomendations?

My thought is that unless you already acquired a standard capacity magazine for it prior to April 4, 2013, you can't carry it with the standard magazine at all in your state. If you did for some reason acquire and register such a magazine years ago, you can carry it but can only load it with 10 rounds.

So I'd go for a gun designed to carry 10 rounds because of the extra bulk required for the 15 round magazine on the Beretta.

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There are a bunch of newer fairly small guns that are much easier to carry concealed that are not as big or heavy as the 92. 

A few of the more easily concealed to consider:

Smith & Wesson M&P Shield 2.0 or M&P Shield EZ9, Glock 43X, Glock 48X, Springfield Hellcat, Sig P365

The Hellcat and EZ9 werent out when I was looking.  I got my wife the 380EZ and she loves it and shoots it better than anything else.  Glocks dont feel right in my hand and dont seem to work very well with my natural point of aim.  I ended up with a Sig P365.  I probably have around 750 rounds through mine and have not had a single issue.  Early versions had a problem with the firing pin being brittle, but that seems to have been corrected. I carry it most days with the 12 round mag as the grip with the 10 round flush fit mag is a little small for my hands (I dont like my pinkie to dangle).

If you are just buying your first handgun be prepared for ammo sticker shock.  This time last year I could buy 1000 rounds of 115gr 9mm range ammo for $180 out the door.  Today that same stuff will cost you $400+ and self defence ammo is nearly $1.00 per round  :angry:

MS

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Oh shit, the dealer did some trading and my stuff is ready to go sooner than expected.  I won't be able to get over there to pick it up for at least a week, which blows.

I did not buy the fancy tripod.

 

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9 hours ago, Hatin' life said:

Oh shit, the dealer did some trading and my stuff is ready to go sooner than expected.  I won't be able to get over there to pick it up for at least a week, which blows.

I did not buy the fancy tripod.

 

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Nice!  What caliber?  

Interesting thing about tripods......  I have a buddy who is a waaay better precision long range shooter than I am.  He's won some regional PRS matches and such, so no slouch.  I had always been lusting for a tripod thinking it would be the most stable platform available for long range.  He came out one day recently with us to bang on some long range steel.  1000-1600 yds.  He was trying out a new tripod system for his rifle.  He said it was really cool, but nowhere near as stable as prone with a bipod or even off a bench.  It's just the way the body is when it's behind the tripod, there is a limited amount of stability because the body is still interacting with the gun and you have the body itself unsupported sitting or standing behind the tripod.  There is a reason a photog uses a tripod with a remote shutter control to snap a pic that needs to be perfectly still, because if he/she even breaths on the camera with a slow shutter speed, it's going to suck.  Same with LR precision shooting.  The further out you go, the slower your "shutter speed".

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10 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Nice!  What caliber?  

Interesting thing about tripods......  I have a buddy who is a waaay better precision long range shooter than I am.  He's won some regional PRS matches and such, so no slouch.  I had always been lusting for a tripod thinking it would be the most stable platform available for long range.  He came out one day recently with us to bang on some long range steel.  1000-1600 yds.  He was trying out a new tripod system for his rifle.  He said it was really cool, but nowhere near as stable as prone with a bipod or even off a bench.  It's just the way the body is when it's behind the tripod, there is a limited amount of stability because the body is still interacting with the gun and you have the body itself unsupported sitting or standing behind the tripod.  There is a reason a photog uses a tripod with a remote shutter control to snap a pic that needs to be perfectly still, because if he/she even breaths on the camera with a slow shutter speed, it's going to suck.  Same with LR precision shooting.  The further out you go, the slower your "shutter speed".

.22

It's a Vudoo action and mtu barrel.  I can't remember which trigger he talked me into, but I didn't want a super light trigger.  It'll never be a field gun, but stupid happens and I don't want a dropped rifle shooting somebody in the gut, even though it shouldn't be loaded anyways.  Super light triggers freak me out a bit.  It's a Masterpiece Arms competition chassis.  Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25x56 optics.

 

A tripod doesn't fit my needs currently.  Especially in a standing position, though I could see hunting reasons, I'm not doing that with a .22.

4 hours ago, sshow bob said:

Very nice! 

Thank you, I was mostly happy with my Volquartsen, but got real jealous, real fast, of what the cool kids were using at the NRL event.  I loved shooting rimfire, doing a couple of those events really reignited that.  I blame you for the big hole in my checking account.  :P

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On 10/19/2020 at 6:17 PM, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Reading the Google, it seems this is an entry grade Beretta O/U of the 1950-60s era.  Entry grade for Beretta, the gold standard of Over/Unders.  Most of the reviewers have been complimentary, describing it as a field grade hunting piece. Used, they're going for $800-1,000 on Gunbroke(r).  

From that same era, I'm a big fan of the Belgian made Browning Superposed O/U, although I prefer 20 ga. When my Dad's gun of that description was stolen from my house, I looked long and hard and found a replacement. Had to get the stock extended, which makes it look like crap, but it is a joy to shoot!

 

Just picked up a Winchester Model 70 243 - Used - way too glossy woodwork but not too many dings and should serve me well come deer season.

 

Still have a Sakko riihimaki 222 that is as beautiful a rifle has I've ever seen and a pure joy to shoot. Although, with that light a round, you have to be careful not to just wound an animal.

 

Also have a 1918 Winchester 30/30 that was my grandfather's. He had to register it because the barrel was so short. Open sights but good up close, and would be effective for personal protection if ever the need arose.

Just about a Sig 9mm too. Haven't fired it yet but it feels good in my hand.

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I am cautiously optimistic that the "new" Marlin lever guns (once Ruger takes over) will be back to being something worth owning again.

MS

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On 10/31/2020 at 6:46 PM, billy backstay said:

Considering a Beretta 92FS for my first handgun, probably won't use for CCW, but it looks like a good possibility for that, if that changes.  OTOH, something a bit smaller might be more appropriate for CCW?....  Opinions?? Other recomendations?

I'm panting after a Glock 48, the G19-sized single stack. It's as thin as the G43, but with the G19's grip size and sighting radius. Plus..... with Shield Defense's metal mags, you can get a total of 15 rounds, the same as the G19. I you ask me, it's a world beater for CCW.   

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9 minutes ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

I'm panting after a Glock 48, the G19-sized single stack. It's as thin as the G43, 

I have a 43X and a 48.  Both share the same frame/grip-size, the 48 has slightly longer slide.

43X is currently my EDC - super light and comfortable.  Only reason I haven't switched to the 48 is that I put a light/laser combo on it and haven't yet bought a holster for it.  Either is a good choice IMO

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1 minute ago, sledracr said:

43X is currently my EDC - super light and comfortable.  Only reason I haven't switched to the 48 is that I put a light/laser combo on it and haven't yet bought a holster for it.  Either is a good choice IMO

Yeah, butt, the Shield Defense mags make the G48.  5 extra rounds without a mag extension.

Your light/laser wouldn't be a CrimsonTrace LaserGuard Pro?  If so, BladeTech make a good holster for it. 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Shield Defense mags make the G48.  

Interesting.  The 43X and 48 take the same (factory 10-rd) mags, so if the Shield Arms mags fit the G48 they should fit the 43X too.  I'll have to take a look.

The light/laser I have is a Streamlight TLR-6.  my EDC holster is a Vedder "light tuck" IWB, I have the G48 model (which works just fine for either 43X or 48).  Very happy with it - secure, lots of "cant" adjustment, pretty much disappears against the body.  I've tried Alien Gear, Crossbreed, several other IWBs and find the Vedder the most comfortable and versatile of the bunch.

They make a version for the 48 +TLR-6, I just haven't gotten around to ordering it.

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11 hours ago, sledracr said:

Interesting.  The 43X and 48 take the same (factory 10-rd) mags, so if the Shield Arms mags fit the G48 they should fit the 43X too.  I'll have to take a look.

There's a mod out there that fits a G48 upper to a 43 frame... If the Shield mags fit the 43 (like G17 mags work well in the 26) that would be a wow.  The 6 round mag for concealment, with a 15 round reload.

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Question for the board here: if one were to build up an AR15 lower into an accurate (but not benchrest accurate) .223/5.56 300 yard rifle, what would be your go-to configuration? I've got a lower and a spare 36X target scope but nothing more. I see that Wilson sells .223 Wylde "match" barrels but I'm not an AR guy and don't really know where to start.

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

what would be your go-to configuration?

You're going to get opinions all over the map, but... here's mine.

It's all about the barrel and the chamber.  A good one will produce good accuracy, a cheap one won't.  Barrel length doesn't matter that much IMO.

I'm a big fan of JP barrels (jprifles.com).  Very high quality, and chambered in .223 Wylde which (as you probably know) is a hybrid spec allowing good results with either ..223 or 5.56 ammunition (they're not the same).

My 3-gun rifle is a JP upper with their 18" medium-weight barrel.  Mostly because I prefer the way it balances compared with a 16" barrel, but I've gotten equal performance with their 16" barrels.  No reason to go any longer than 18" IMO.  It's a true sub-MOA combination, with quality ammo it's embarrassingly easy to ring the 10" plates at 600 yards off a bipod, but it's not too heavy to be "handy" on closer targets.

Not a particularly low-price configuration.... but in my experience, the best performance for the buck.  If you want to build it yourself, I'd still recommend JP parts - you can get a barrel, stripped upper and bolt/carrier from them and know that your parts aren't going to hold you back.

$.02

BTW, not that you asked, but 36x is way too much scope.  I used to use 4-16x variables on my match rifles (out to 1000 yards) but found that the magnification was less important than the constrained field of view at higher powers.  Switched to 3-9x scopes, that was better but even with that I found I never "needed" more than about 6x.  now 1-6x (or 1-8x) variables are readily available and are a really good option.  

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Thanks, Sled, I'll take a look at JP. I understand that it's almost all about the barrel, chamber, and to some extent the bolt, at least if it's not well-matched to the chamber lugs. I'm not looking for the cheapest or most expensive solution, just a good value even if it's a bit more expensive. Sub-MOA at 300 yards and <10" hits at 600 yards would definitely satisfy me. 

Regarding the scope, it's a Weaver T series. I've got 50-something year old astigmatic eyes and have another Weaver 36X installed on a bolt action .223 Rem. Even though the field of view is tight, I love that I can see the .22 caliber holes in the paper without having to use a spotting scope. Since I've got a spare laying around, I figured I'd slap it on there and see if it's too constraining. I've also got a spare 3-14X :D so I can always swap it out. 

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15 minutes ago, IStream said:

 it's almost all about the barrel, chamber, and to some extent the bolt

Spot on.  I had a custom bolt gun built on a Rem-700 platform for long-distance games (years ago, before PRS came on the scene, and decided to go with  Lilja (riflebarrels.com) for the barrel.  I asked him about the options (length, weight, profile, etc, etc, etc) and his answer was pretty straightforward.

"what matters the most is that the round chambers the same way, every time, and the bullet enters the bore the same way, every time.  A good barrel with an out-of-spec chamber will never perform.  A good chamber on a poorly-bored barrel will never perform.  But a good chamber presenting a round consistently into the bore of a good barrel will perform.  The barrel length, weight and profile almost don't matter in comparison"

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On 10/24/2020 at 1:28 AM, Greever said:

velocityammo.com

Sure about that?  Their domain is for sale.

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53 minutes ago, bplipschitz said:

Sure about that?  Their domain is for sale.

Well i got 5 boxes of .357 ammo delivered by them last week. Maybe I got the name wrong? Let me check...

 

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Just missed picking up a BCM RECCE 14 today. Primary Arms had them in stock for about an hour. They still have their 18" Precision AR in stock so I may go that route.  Really was hoping to nab that 14.5" with pinned A2.

MS

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Bang for the Buck Barrels: PSA's FN (Fabrique Nationale) barrels. Or Faxon and Ballistic Advantage. Unlimited Time and Money: Kreiger (my Kreiger 20" .223 Wylde shoots 0.5 MOA ever with this nut behind the trigger.) 20" 1:7 twist. 223 Wylde is the accepted long range chamber. Good Two-Stage Trigger (I'm no trigger snob, but I really like the LaRue MBT trigger, especially for a Scot pleasing $88.)  Free floating handguard - a you pickum. Then good, if not great, ammo.

Barrel, ammo, and trigger are were you should spend most of your money. 

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Cleaned up the .38, the .50, and the .75 today. Loaded, and ready for any fascists that come along..... (I learned this from MadMax.....)

 Now if BLM members happen by, I'll make them a nice dinner of left overs.

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14 hours ago, IStream said:

Question for the board here: if one were to build up an AR15 lower into an accurate (but not benchrest accurate) .223/5.56 300 yard rifle, what would be your go-to configuration? I've got a lower and a spare 36X target scope but nothing more. I see that Wilson sells .223 Wylde "match" barrels but I'm not an AR guy and don't really know where to start.

There's lots of choices.  Where to start??

Personally, my only two experiences with a .223 "precision" upper is Larue and JP.  I bought a Larue Stealth .223 Wylde back around 2009/10 because of the Larue hype at the time.  Sorely disappointed.  For the $$, it sucked.  Struggled to shoot 3/4 MOA consistently with good match ammo and tuned reloads.  I was looking at White Oak Armory (WOA) at the same time and wish I had gone with them instead.

Fast forward to about two years ago.... I was so frustrated with the Larue performance, that I kept the Larue upper but replaced the barrel with a JP.  I could not have asked for a better choice.  Shoots lights out, better than I can most days.  I can consistently shoot .5 MOA and sometimes get 5 shots < .25".  So my current Franken .223 precision is a JP Barrel, Larue upper, LMT lower, a Precision reflex handguard and a PRS stock with a Vortex Razor 5-20x scope.  Love that rifle!!  To me, the JP barrel is the key, because it's accuracy drastically changed overnight with that addition when all else was the same.  

Again, based on user feedback on precision shooting forums, the barrel brands that seem to hit the top 5-10 are:

  • JP (you can get barrel and matched / headspaced bolt combo)
  • WOA
  • Kreiger
  • Rock
  • BCM
  • MEGA
  • Seekins Precision

IMHO, the barrel is the key.  Buy the best barrel you can and then build around that.  The upper and lower receivers themselves are secondary as long as they are decent quality and fit ok.  Trigger is super important, as is stock/grip.  Because both of them are your interface to the rifle.  If the stock doesn't fit, the best rifle in the world will suck for you.  And if I have a rifle that fits, I can make a mediocre trigger work - to a point. 

So my hierarchy of components in order of importance are:  

  1. Barrel
  2. Correctly headspaced Bolt
  3. Stock
  4. Trigger
  5. Gas system
  6. BCG (weight)
  7. Spring type
  8. Handguard
  9. Upper (properly fitted to the barrel) 
  10. Lower
  11. Parts group

my $.02.  YMMV.  Hope that helps.

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13 hours ago, sledracr said:

You're going to get opinions all over the map, but... here's mine.

It's all about the barrel and the chamber.  A good one will produce good accuracy, a cheap one won't.  Barrel length doesn't matter that much IMO.

I'm a big fan of JP barrels (jprifles.com).  Very high quality, and chambered in .223 Wylde which (as you probably know) is a hybrid spec allowing good results with either ..223 or 5.56 ammunition (they're not the same).

My 3-gun rifle is a JP upper with their 18" medium-weight barrel.  Mostly because I prefer the way it balances compared with a 16" barrel, but I've gotten equal performance with their 16" barrels.  No reason to go any longer than 18" IMO.  It's a true sub-MOA combination, with quality ammo it's embarrassingly easy to ring the 10" plates at 600 yards off a bipod, but it's not too heavy to be "handy" on closer targets.

Not a particularly low-price configuration.... but in my experience, the best performance for the buck.  If you want to build it yourself, I'd still recommend JP parts - you can get a barrel, stripped upper and bolt/carrier from them and know that your parts aren't going to hold you back.

$.02

BTW, not that you asked, but 36x is way too much scope.  I used to use 4-16x variables on my match rifles (out to 1000 yards) but found that the magnification was less important than the constrained field of view at higher powers.  Switched to 3-9x scopes, that was better but even with that I found I never "needed" more than about 6x.  now 1-6x (or 1-8x) variables are readily available and are a really good option.  

I agree with all, especially the JP fanboy stuff.  100% agree.  I liked JP so much on my .223 that I'm building an entire AR-10 platform in .260 Rem out of mostly JP components.  JP Barrel, gas block, Bolt, BCG, SCS, upper and handguard.  It's will be on a GAP lower, Geiselle SSA trigger and Magpul PRS stock.  I have all the parts except the stripped upper.  Hoping to have that in any day now to complete the build.  

But you lost me at magnification.  I'm completely the opposite.  I have S&B 5-25x's on my larger caliber rifles and I wish I had more, sometimes.  I shoot on 25x at 100yds and 1000+yds.  The only time I dial down is when I'm trying to find the steel plate at 1300 and need to get in the general area first.  My .223 precision rifle "only" has a 5-20x vortex razor and I find myself wishing for more when I'm shooting out to 800yds or so.  I had a S&B 4-16x on another rifle and hated it wishing I had more power.  So I finally sold it.  If the optic is poor quality, I could definitely see the really higher magnifications being less desirable.  But as long as it's clear, mo is betta.  Just saying.

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5 hours ago, Burning Man said:

I agree with all, especially the JP fanboy stuff.  100% agree.  I liked JP so much on my .223 that I'm building an entire AR-10 platform in .260 Rem out of mostly JP components.  JP Barrel, gas block, Bolt, BCG, SCS, upper and handguard.  It's will be on a GAP lower, Geiselle SSA trigger and Magpul PRS stock.  I have all the parts except the stripped upper.  Hoping to have that in any day now to complete the build.  

But you lost me at magnification.  I'm completely the opposite.  I have S&B 5-25x's on my larger caliber rifles and I wish I had more, sometimes.  I shoot on 25x at 100yds and 1000+yds.  The only time I dial down is when I'm trying to find the steel plate at 1300 and need to get in the general area first.  My .223 precision rifle "only" has a 5-20x vortex razor and I find myself wishing for more when I'm shooting out to 800yds or so.  I had a S&B 4-16x on another rifle and hated it wishing I had more power.  So I finally sold it.  If the optic is poor quality, I could definitely see the really higher magnifications being less desirable.  But as long as it's clear, mo is betta.  Just saying.

Yeah, gonna look hard at the JP barrel, I think. As I mentioned above, I love my Weaver 36X for smallbore paper shooting, mainly because I can't see the damned holes without a higher power scope and it saves me from having to set up or use a spotting scope.

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Remember, you're going to have to invest in tools to help in the assembly. 

I know guys will brag that they assembled an AR holding it between their legs and using only a shovel.  And their guns look it.  Nothing beats a good vise (or vice), a mag well block, reaction rod, torque wrench, good punches, etc, etc, etc.

Good video series:
https://youtu.be/pcko0UlvQxQ

 

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2 hours ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Remember, you're going to have to invest in tools to help in the assembly. 

I know guys will brag that they assembled an AR holding it between their legs and using only a shovel.  And their guns look it.  Nothing beats a good vise (or vice), a mag well block, reaction rod, torque wrench, good punches, etc, etc, etc.

Good video series:
https://youtu.be/pcko0UlvQxQ

 

Thanks. I've got a decent gun vise, punches, gunsmith screwdrivers, pins, grub screws, etc but nothing specific to the AR. My friend, who's built a half dozen AR-pattern rifles, has all the AR-specific tools and is willing to lend them to me. She's a good friend.

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On 11/1/2020 at 1:17 AM, Burning Man said:

I'm not a fan of the 92FS.  It's an "adequate" gun, but there are far better ones out there in that price range.  For one, its big and it's heavy.  I had to qual with them in the military every year.  I didn't find the ergonomics all that great.  It would definitely NOT be my first choice for CCW.  

I'll be the first to admit I'm a Glock Fanboy.  They.just.work.  Simple, reliable, accurate, light ......  and did I mention reliable?

If you want a handgun for CCW, I would highly recommend looking at the 9mm Glock 43x.  I find it's the perfect size and mag capacity for CCW.  I've tried a lot of handguns for CCW including larger Glocks, 1911s, a Walther PPS, etc and the 43x TO ME feels like the perfect all around CCW tool.  YMMV.

But the Beretta?  Nah, I'd pass.  There is a reason the US Army dumped it for the new Sig  P320 for their issue handgun.  

What's your view on the angles/geometry of them as stated above?

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On 11/3/2020 at 5:59 PM, sledracr said:

You're going to get opinions all over the map, but... here's mine.

It's all about the barrel and the chamber.  A good one will produce good accuracy, a cheap one won't.  Barrel length doesn't matter that much IMO.

I'm a big fan of JP barrels (jprifles.com).  Very high quality, and chambered in .223 Wylde which (as you probably know) is a hybrid spec allowing good results with either ..223 or 5.56 ammunition (they're not the same).

My 3-gun rifle is a JP upper with their 18" medium-weight barrel.  Mostly because I prefer the way it balances compared with a 16" barrel, but I've gotten equal performance with their 16" barrels.  No reason to go any longer than 18" IMO.  It's a true sub-MOA combination, with quality ammo it's embarrassingly easy to ring the 10" plates at 600 yards off a bipod, but it's not too heavy to be "handy" on closer targets.

Not a particularly low-price configuration.... but in my experience, the best performance for the buck.  If you want to build it yourself, I'd still recommend JP parts - you can get a barrel, stripped upper and bolt/carrier from them and know that your parts aren't going to hold you back.

$.02

BTW, not that you asked, but 36x is way too much scope.  I used to use 4-16x variables on my match rifles (out to 1000 yards) but found that the magnification was less important than the constrained field of view at higher powers.  Switched to 3-9x scopes, that was better but even with that I found I never "needed" more than about 6x.  now 1-6x (or 1-8x) variables are readily available and are a really good option.  

What's your preference for pistol and shottie for 3-gun?

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2 hours ago, mad said:

What's your preference for pistol and shottie for 3-gun?

Hmmm.... it varies.

In USPSA 3-gun, I shoot in the "open" (unlimited) division, where pretty much anything goes.  So pistol is a custom-built hi-cap STI 9mm with red-dot sight, compensator and other gadgets.  Shotgun is a similarly customized MKA-1919 (magazine-fed) 12gauge, also with red-dot sight and "compensator".... I love the ergonomics of the MKA but the gas system is a little fussy (if, for example, running shot and slugs in the same magazine).  If I were going to change it out I'd go with a VR80 which is essentially the same design and uses the same magazines but has a little smarter gas-regulator system.  I periodically drool over the R&R Saiga's, they're gorgeous and they run-and-run-and-run, but $$$, plus I'm not personally a fan of the Saiga ergonomics.  Oh, and Saiga mags are a pain in the ass to "tune" so they drop free and still run reliably.

In other versions of the 3-gun game (eg, IPSC, or 3GN, or one-off matches) it depends on their equipment rules.  In some matches, for example, the "tactical" division only allows an optic on one of the three, so I shoot a hi-cap/iron-sighted 9mm pistol, a Rem-1100 with long magazine extension (I might be the last guy on the planet *not* running a Benelli, but... whatevs.  My 1100 runs), and keep the optic on the JP rifle.

The hardest parts of 3-gun are really "all the other stuff", and how to carry it around.  Having the right stuff on your belt at the right time(s) is often as big a challenge as the shooting part.

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Unfricking real!!!  I walked into my LGS on Saturday and what to my wondering eyes should appear, but a BCM Recce 16 MCMR.  It is the AR I have been searching for since before this VID nightmare started.  BCM has been OOS on their website as long as I can remember.  The Recce 14 was in stock on Primary Arms site last week for less than an hour.  Not every day I find what I want looking me in the face, so she came home with me.  So very happy.  Have to figure out how to break it to Mrs Squirrel that I went over budget on my AR, but nothing a few extra walnuts cant fix.

MS

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12 hours ago, Mr. Squirrel said:

Unfricking real!!!  I walked into my LGS on Saturday and what to my wondering eyes should appear, but a BCM Recce 16 MCMR.  It is the AR I have been searching for since before this VID nightmare started.  BCM has been OOS on their website as long as I can remember.  The Recce 14 was in stock on Primary Arms site last week for less than an hour.  Not every day I find what I want looking me in the face, so she came home with me.  So very happy.  Have to figure out how to break it to Mrs Squirrel that I went over budget on my AR, but nothing a few extra walnuts cant fix.

MS

Now get a 10 pack of Pmag gen2’s for it...

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1 hour ago, Greever said:

Now get a 10 pack of Pmag gen2’s for it...

Thought I wanted windowed Gen3s so have been watching for sales.  Gen2s?  I am hoping someone has a decent Black Friday sale on 5.56  :/

MS

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On 11/4/2020 at 11:17 AM, IStream said:

Thanks. I've got a decent gun vise, punches, gunsmith screwdrivers, pins, grub screws, etc but nothing specific to the AR. My friend, who's built a half dozen AR-pattern rifles, has all the AR-specific tools and is willing to lend them to me. She's a good friend.

Any chance she has an AR-10 chamber size reaction rod?  I'm struggling to find one for when my upper reciever comes in.

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On 11/17/2020 at 5:18 AM, mad said:

What's your view on the angles/geometry of them as stated above?

I'll be honest with you...... unlike road bikes - I've never paid attention to the geometry of a handgun.  Never even thought about it until it came up here.  It's more of a feel thing - if it feels good, then the angle is correct.  YMMV

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9 hours ago, Greever said:

Now get a 10 pack of Pmag gen2’s for it...

Gen 2 over gen 3? Inquiring minds want to know.

I have a mix of AR mags. From metal GI to Pmag gen 2 & 3. They all work fine.

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1 hour ago, F_L said:

Gen 2 over gen 3? Inquiring minds want to know.

I have a mix of AR mags. From metal GI to Pmag gen 2 & 3. They all work fine.

Price. You can usually get a ten pack of gen2’s for a lot less than the gen3’s.

I have some gen’3s with the window cut, and they cost a lot more, and seem overrated to me?

I mean, if someone is shooting at you, do you really have time to look at the little orange line in the window?

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

I'll be honest with you...... unlike road bikes - I've never paid attention to the geometry of a handgun.  Never even thought about it until it came up here.  It's more of a feel thing - if it feels good, then the angle is correct.  YMMV

A guy told me to go to the gun shop, have them lay the handguns you are interested in on the counter.

Close your eyes and pick them up. Which one feels best?

I wound up with an XDm .45 with the 4.5 inch barrel...

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That's a good start, but feels best and shoots best aren't necessarily the same. I disqualify the ones that don't feel right in my hand and of the ones that do, I test at the range. As often as not, I find I shoot better with my second or third pick from a "feels good" counter test.

 

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36 minutes ago, Greever said:

Close your eyes and pick them up. Which one feels best?

"feels good" isn't the test. It's just the first test.

Once you've got one that feels good in your hand, pick it up, look at a point on the far wall, close your eyes, and (with eyes closed) index the gun on that point.  Then open your eyes.

If the sights are more or less aligned on the target, good.  that one's a possibility.  If they're noticeably misaligned (up, down, right, left).... it means that you'll have to teach yourself (or train muscle-memory) to shoot the gun well, as it doesn't "point" naturally for you.  Not necessarily a deal-breaker, but definitely something to be aware of.

I've shot 1911-pattern guns for a long time.  With a flat mainspring housing, they all "point" for me.  When I pick up a glock, I have to pay attention to the fact that it will NOT "point" naturally for me, because of the different grip angle.  That's an important thing to know if, for example, using a Glock as a self-defense gun.  Or, perhaps, it's a reason *not* to choose a Glock as a self-defense gun, if that having-to-be-conscious-of-the-difference would be an issue when the alarms are going off.

ymmv.

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9 minutes ago, sledracr said:

"feels good" isn't the test. It's just the first test.

Once you've got one that feels good in your hand, pick it up, look at a point on the far wall, close your eyes, and (with eyes closed) index the gun on that point.  Then open your eyes.

If the sights are more or less aligned on the target, good.  that one's a possibility.  If they're noticeably misaligned (up, down, right, left).... it means that you'll have to teach yourself (or train muscle-memory) to shoot the gun well, as it doesn't "point" naturally for you.  Not necessarily a deal-breaker, but definitely something to be aware of.

I've shot 1911-pattern guns for a long time.  With a flat mainspring housing, they all "point" for me.  When I pick up a glock, I have to pay attention to the fact that it will NOT "point" naturally for me, because of the different grip angle.  That's an important thing to know if, for example, using a Glock as a self-defense gun.  Or, perhaps, it's a reason *not* to choose a Glock as a self-defense gun, if that having-to-be-conscious-of-the-difference would be an issue when the alarms are going off.

ymmv.

Funny, I went the other way. I started out with a Ruger MkII bull barrel, which I loved. My first centerfire pistol was Browning Hi Power I got from an uncle. It fit and pointed beautifully for me. I later added a Glock 19 which (except for the trigger) required no adjustment. As I got better, I wanted to move up to a 45 for the greater accuracy potential but no matter how much I wanted to like the 1911, I didn't like the feel of either the grip angle or the reciprocating mass of the slide. I did own a SIG 220 and it was okay, but it was finicky if you didn't keep it meticulously clean. Based on my good experience with the Glock 19, I tried a Glock 21 and even though it was huge, I could shoot it very well. Finally, on a whim and based on my past comfort with the Hi Power, I tried a CZ 97B. CZ's 9mm's are all derivatives of the Hi Power and the 97B is their 45 caliber version. That was it, I was hooked. 

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1 hour ago, Greever said:

Price. You can usually get a ten pack of gen2’s for a lot less than the gen3’s.

I have some gen’3s with the window cut, and they cost a lot more, and seem overrated to me?

I mean, if someone is shooting at you, do you really have time to look at the little orange line in the window?

OK. Fair enough and good point!

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3 hours ago, F_L said:

Gen 2 over gen 3? Inquiring minds want to know.

I have a mix of AR mags. From metal GI to Pmag gen 2 & 3. They all work fine.

I have a mix of PMag Gen 2s and 3s.  The 2s are used for training, range and plinking: they're used and contused. However for duty mags, which are loaded for long periods of time, I only use Gen 3s. The major difference between the Gen 2s and 3s is the cap that comes with the Gen 3s. The cap pushes the rounds down and eliminates pressure on the feed lips. Deformation of the feed lips is the major cause of mag failures and firearm issues. And leaving a mag fully loaded for years is begging for that failure.

I also have aluminum and steel mags for my SHTF supply. I just don't trust plastic over multiple decades of time. 

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18 hours ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

I have a mix of PMag Gen 2s and 3s.  The 2s are used for training, range and plinking: they're used and contused. However for duty mags, which are loaded for long periods of time, I only use Gen 3s. The major difference between the Gen 2s and 3s is the cap that comes with the Gen 3s. The cap pushes the rounds down and eliminates pressure on the feed lips. Deformation of the feed lips is the major cause of mag failures and firearm issues. And leaving a mag fully loaded for years is begging for that failure.

I also have aluminum and steel mags for my SHTF supply. I just don't trust plastic over multiple decades of time. 

Question from the un-informed - is the "cap" on the Gen 3s something you have to remove before you can seat the mag?

MS

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1 hour ago, Mr. Squirrel said:

Question from the un-informed - is the "cap" on the Gen 3s something you have to remove before you can seat the mag?

MS

Yes . The cap presses down on the cartridges, taking the load of the lips of the magazine. Loaded mags in long term storage with the poly mags resulted in the lips being deformed before the cap was added.

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A recent addition to the arsenal.  When they resume (US) Independence Day boat parades at my usual sailing venue, I may have to fire a salute to the judges. 

 

Some test-runs were exercised prior to turning the stock to its final form -

 

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The Myakka river wandered into my brother's house in curricane Eta and among the things that got wet was some ammo. He's too overloaded to care about it right now so I got thousands of rounds of .22 and some shotgun shells. There was a wooden crate of 2,000 rounds of 5.56. We shot off a box last night to make sure it still worked and I sold it to a friend for a hundred bucks. Now I have a pile of rejects, mostly 12 gauge. I'm not sure how you're supposed to dispose of those and the county's trash collection website doesn't say.

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11 hours ago, Quotidian Tom said:

The Myakka river wandered into my brother's house in curricane Eta and among the things that got wet was some ammo. He's too overloaded to care about it right now so I got thousands of rounds of .22 and some shotgun shells. There was a wooden crate of 2,000 rounds of 5.56. We shot off a box last night to make sure it still worked and I sold it to a friend for a hundred bucks. Now I have a pile of rejects, mostly 12 gauge. I'm not sure how you're supposed to dispose of those and the county's trash collection website doesn't say.

26.jpg

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11 hours ago, Quotidian Tom said:

The Myakka river wandered into my brother's house in curricane Eta and among the things that got wet was some ammo. He's too overloaded to care about it right now so I got thousands of rounds of .22 and some shotgun shells. There was a wooden crate of 2,000 rounds of 5.56. We shot off a box last night to make sure it still worked and I sold it to a friend for a hundred bucks. Now I have a pile of rejects, mostly 12 gauge. I'm not sure how you're supposed to dispose of those and the county's trash collection website doesn't say.

 

A former tenant left some 9MM slugs in a box in a closet, when he vacated.  Guy who was painting the apartment, was an Ex-town cop, and he just removed the slugs with a pliers, and dumped the gunpowder onto the ground.  Probably not environmentally proper, but it worked...

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Modern rimfire and centerfire pistol and rifle ammo will tolerate a shallow dunking for a quite a while. Most rounds have the primer pocket sealed. Shotgun shells are another thing.... being open at the top.

Man, the dude that got 2000 rounds for a hundy SCORED!  At 5 cents a round, that's way less than scrap value. 

The Sheriff's Office in my ol' hometown would accept ammo for destruction.  Most of it was destroyed at the range ;) , some got dumped in a bucket of old motor oil for a day or two, then dumped in the trash.  Oil dissolves the sealant and kills the primers.  

 

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12 hours ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Man, the dude that got 2000 rounds for a hundy SCORED!  At 5 cents a round, that's way less than scrap value. 

He's a good friend and just gave me half a dozen good fruit trees, including a variety of lychee I have been wanting for a while. Also, he's now dealing with discarding the wet boxes and drying the bullets out and storing them. I'm just glad they're gone.

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On 11/17/2020 at 3:01 PM, sledracr said:

Hmmm.... it varies.

In USPSA 3-gun, I shoot in the "open" (unlimited) division, where pretty much anything goes.  So pistol is a custom-built hi-cap STI 9mm with red-dot sight, compensator and other gadgets.  Shotgun is a similarly customized MKA-1919 (magazine-fed) 12gauge, also with red-dot sight and "compensator".... I love the ergonomics of the MKA but the gas system is a little fussy (if, for example, running shot and slugs in the same magazine).  If I were going to change it out I'd go with a VR80 which is essentially the same design and uses the same magazines but has a little smarter gas-regulator system.  I periodically drool over the R&R Saiga's, they're gorgeous and they run-and-run-and-run, but $$$, plus I'm not personally a fan of the Saiga ergonomics.  Oh, and Saiga mags are a pain in the ass to "tune" so they drop free and still run reliably.

In other versions of the 3-gun game (eg, IPSC, or 3GN, or one-off matches) it depends on their equipment rules.  In some matches, for example, the "tactical" division only allows an optic on one of the three, so I shoot a hi-cap/iron-sighted 9mm pistol, a Rem-1100 with long magazine extension (I might be the last guy on the planet *not* running a Benelli, but... whatevs.  My 1100 runs), and keep the optic on the JP rifle.

The hardest parts of 3-gun are really "all the other stuff", and how to carry it around.  Having the right stuff on your belt at the right time(s) is often as big a challenge as the shooting part.

Thanks, hadn’t heard of that shottie before, but AR style shotguns with box magazines will probably get me thrown of just about every type of range I go to. :P
Interesting history. 
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2012/5/8/akdal-mka-1919-12-gauge-shotgun/

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On 11/23/2020 at 9:09 PM, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Modern rimfire and centerfire pistol and rifle ammo will tolerate a shallow dunking for a quite a while. Most rounds have the primer pocket sealed. Shotgun shells are another thing.... being open at the top.

Man, the dude that got 2000 rounds for a hundy SCORED!  At 5 cents a round, that's way less than scrap value. 

The Sheriff's Office in my ol' hometown would accept ammo for destruction.  Most of it was destroyed at the range ;) , some got dumped in a bucket of old motor oil for a day or two, then dumped in the trash.  Oil dissolves the sealant and kills the primers.  

 

The shit you can learn in SA forums! :P

 

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Why aren't levels inside optics more of a thing?

 

My new rifle has a level in the stock.  Since getting it, I've realized I'm terrible at keeping the rifle plumb.

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3 hours ago, mad said:

The shit you can learn in SA forums! :P

Yeah, but I learned that one at a terrible cost.

Back when Cali could elect a Reagan, we lost a Chippie. I was raining buckets all day, and the CHP officer didn't want his revolver to rust, so he liberally sprayed it with WD-40.

Tragically, he was found on the side of the road, gun in hand.  All six rounds had deep primer strikes. Later analysis found that the WD-40 had quite efficiently killed all the primers. Further investigation found that many hydrocarbons had the same effect.

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30 minutes ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Exactly what I use on my rifles. 

Remember that the rifle needn't actually be plumb. The scope does. The point is ensuring no crosstalk between the two axis.  If the level is on the scope rather than the stock, you can set it up so that the stock fits you best and the vertical component of the reticle is truly vertical. Screws up people shooting off their other shoulder, of course. 

 

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This was during set up. Levels mounted to the scope to establish the vertical component from a known true plane on the turret, then the vortex level gets mounted. Once that's done, I loosen the mounting rings and address the rifle. When the stock is comfortable I rotate the scope with the level mounted until its vertical again, and lock it down. 

20181214_124108~2.jpg

20181214_125403~2.jpg

Edited by sshow bob
Typo

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On 11/30/2020 at 8:29 PM, Charlie Foxtrot said:

I've got a level in my stock, but inside and not having to take my focus off the goal makes a lot of sense.

Like first focal plane recticals make life so much easier.  There's probably a reason you wouldn't go that way, but I don't know what it is.

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Keeping everything at the same orientation shot to shoot is pretty important.

Tilt from zero, and the drop of the bullet would be the two factors?

Using 8" of drop, 2º of tilt 

h=a*tan(Ø)

8*tan(2)=.279"

That would get your windage.  That's not huge, but 2º isn't either.  Include my normal suck, and shooting at a ¼" target, that's a big miss.

At 5º, and 18" of drop at 100 yards for a .22, now it's 1.58".  5º should be a lot

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Understood. That said, with the level on the arm on the scope you can check level by opening your non-dominant eye without much trouble. Works better for me than level on stock. YMMV. 

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4 minutes ago, sshow bob said:

Understood. That said, with the level on the arm on the scope you can check level by opening your non-dominant eye without much trouble. Works better for me than level on stock. YMMV. 

I could see that as well, and agree.  My buddy said the same thing.  I still think in the optic would be super easy for the user.  The engineering to make it might be a different story.  I'm not putting $3k worth of glass on a rimfire.  Probably not anyways.... lol

 

Maybe an electronic one and lights would be easier/cheaper to produce?

I'm just floating ideas.

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Sig Tango series has what you're looking for at more reasonable prices,  I think. For sure, it would be easy.

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On 12/1/2020 at 2:22 AM, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Yeah, but I learned that one at a terrible cost.

Back when Cali could elect a Reagan, we lost a Chippie. I was raining buckets all day, and the CHP officer didn't want his revolver to rust, so he liberally sprayed it with WD-40.

Tragically, he was found on the side of the road, gun in hand.  All six rounds had deep primer strikes. Later analysis found that the WD-40 had quite efficiently killed all the primers. Further investigation found that many hydrocarbons had the same effect.

Wow, that's a sobering tale.

I'll keep that one filed away just in case i ever see people doing that, I'm sure its done by some after a wet day.  WD-40 is one of the most misused products at times.

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On 11/23/2020 at 4:09 PM, Charlie Foxtrot said:

The Sheriff's Office in my ol' hometown would accept ammo for destruction. 

I got the Sheriff's Office to take the ammo that got wet. Mostly 12 gauge, a couple boxes of 9mm, and a thousand or so rounds of .22. I got the impression from the deputy who took it that some of it might be kept and used for practice.

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I shit you not.  Seven rounds.  40yds.20201212_140227.thumb.jpg.6d37e8c7eee00827d3feef44b040353b.jpg

 

40 yds is all the further I've got in the shop.  The low one was the first on a clean barrel

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7 hours ago, Hatin' life said:

I shit you not.  Seven rounds.  40yds.20201212_140227.thumb.jpg.6d37e8c7eee00827d3feef44b040353b.jpg

 

40 yds is all the further I've got in the shop.  The low one was the first on a clean barrel

:o

What are you shooting with that grouping!?

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7 hours ago, Hatin' life said:

I shit you not.  Seven rounds.  40yds.20201212_140227.thumb.jpg.6d37e8c7eee00827d3feef44b040353b.jpg

 

40 yds is all the further I've got in the shop.  The low one was the first on a clean barrel

Sweet!

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

:o

What are you shooting with that grouping!?

Vudoo

 

20201212_120951.thumb.jpg.e15979dc0544f5e8a0ed460503bb3bd5.jpg

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44 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Jeepers.....that’s quite a rig!

It's the nicest rifle I've ever shot.

I haven't shot a lot of high end shit, but it's bonkers nice

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Sorry to bring it down a few calibers...

Last week I bought myself an AR 15 for my birthday (a first of it's kind for me)! Currently billed as the 'Modern American Sports Rifle'...? Fuck! That thing is really loud!!!  I'm gonna need ear plugs inside my electronic headphones! 

Swapped the included red dot with an existing reflex sight. Doesn't seem like the right scope/glass as I'm not running and gunning thru a city or a building....

 

What's the best ACOG scope , with 3-4x mag, that isn't a Trijicon for say around/less than $200? 

Angled fore grip on the way after first shooting!

 

PXL_20201206_002210974.jpg

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