billy backstay

What's in your arsenal??

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6 hours ago, sledracr said:

Heh.

.308 starts dropping like a flat rock after about 800 yards....

So that’s 500 yards to play with then ;)

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7 hours ago, chinabald said:

I’ve heard of that.  Another mistake people make is dropping a 20 gauge shell into a 12 gauge over under. It will drop down into the barrel and then the shooter will see that the chamber is empty will drop a 12 gauge round in and fire. This happens when someone switches guns and isn’t careful about getting the shells out of his vest. 

Heard about this one years ago and I’m just running through the loading process in my mind, or at least how I tend to load.

Break gun, catch both spent cartridges in right hand simultaneously and throw in the bin.

Reload 2 new shells with the same hand simultaneously, making sure visually they’re seated properly in order to close gun. 
You have to be doing something fundamentally wrong to not notice that one has disappeared down the forcing cone and then make a conscious effort to grab one more shell and load again!! Not saying it hasn’t/doesn’t happen..... but you need to be a special type of idiot to do that trick! 

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7 hours ago, sledracr said:

Heh.

.308 starts dropping like a flat rock after about 800 yards....

 

3 hours ago, Dorado said:

We never did. That was the max distance at that facility. I think the results would have been the same out to about 600 as long as the wind wasn't blowing over 10 knots. His ammunition just never group as well as mine did. The 308 round is capable of staying supersonic past a thousand yards but you need hot loads and long barrels for that. Do a Google search on Palma match shooting and you can see what they can do with a 308

I’ll let others more knowledgeable than me discuss this one. 

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11 hours ago, Fakenews said:

I’m not scared so no need for guns. Besides they’re a public health hazard like cigarettes, asbestos or a dog with Ebola.

I'm scared of an empty freezer, and hormones/antibiotics in meat are a public health hazard...ipso facto I have a need for guns... 

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11 hours ago, chinabald said:

I’ve heard of that.  Another mistake people make is dropping a 20 gauge shell into a 12 gauge over under. It will drop down into the barrel and then the shooter will see that the chamber is empty will drop a 12 gauge round in and fire. This happens when someone switches guns and isn’t careful about getting the shells out of his vest. 

Fortunately, all modern 20 gauge shells have bright yellow hulls.  Look for the Yellow Peril!

Similar thing can happen with 300 BLK in a 5.56 carbine. Trying to push a .30 Cal bullet down a .223 bore is big-time No Bueno.  I'm OCD about keeping the two types of ammo separated -- and still live in fear that I'm going to eff it up. 

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4 hours ago, mad said:

 discuss this one. 

Dunno about "knowledgeable" (I'm no Brian Litz), but... have pushed my share of .308 downrange before switching to other (better) choices.

.308 (figure a 168gr match bullet leaving at 2650 fps)
-- drops ~40" between 500 and 600 yards
-- drops ~55" between 600 and 700 yards
-- drops ~70" between 700 and 800 yards
-- drops ~95" between 800 and 900 yards
-- drops ~120" (10 feet) between 900 and 1000 yards
-- drops ~150" between 1000 and 1100 yards
-- drops ~180" (15 feet) between 1100 and 1200 yards
... plus goes subsonic (with some instability) around 1000 yards

So, yeah, .308 at distance is not boring.  If your scope is "on" at 500 yards, you'd need to hold nearly 32 *feet* over the target to hit at 1000 yards.  And nearly twice that for a 1200-yard target.

Plus wind.  Plus elevation/angle. Plus, plus, plus...

That's why there are so many 6mm/6.5mm flavors in the distance games.  Comparatively speaking, they're laser-beams.

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5 hours ago, mad said:

Heard about this one years ago and I’m just running through the loading process in my mind, or at least how I tend to load.

Break gun, catch both spent cartridges in right hand simultaneously and throw in the bin.

Reload 2 new shells with the same hand simultaneously, making sure visually they’re seated properly in order to close gun. 
You have to be doing something fundamentally wrong to not notice that one has disappeared down the forcing cone and then make a conscious effort to grab one more shell and load again!! Not saying it hasn’t/doesn’t happen..... but you need to be a special type of idiot to do that trick! 

Probably more likely while hunting and you get caught up in what’s going on. And then forget you already loaded a shell... but regardless it’s definitely a brain fart at the minimum.  

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5 minutes ago, chinabald said:

Probably more likely while hunting and you get caught up in what’s going on. And then forget you already loaded a shell... but regardless it’s definitely a brain fart at the minimum.  

Be more than a fart when it happens, that’s for sure! :P

Just as long I’m not standing next to it when it happens, they can learn from the experience 

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This conversation made me curious to see what plugged barrel damage looks like. Glad I’m seeing these in pictures and not real life.

9B430E5B-A6F4-437B-8E7E-5FEF0A64EC8E.jpeg

42D96793-750F-4D14-A041-5C3F8DF1BA06.jpeg

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So, what do y'all recommend for a CCW handgun, should I finally pull that trigger, and make a purchase?  I understand that I should try various options at a range, and see what is most comfortable, if possible before making a decision.  Coupla mates like their Glock 9's, but other than the targets I  shot at the CCW class, years ago, I have little practical experience....

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42 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

a CCW handgun

As with all things.... it depends.

I have a very nice Kimber compact "elite" something-or-other .45 that I bought for carry.  But it's big-ish and heavy-ish and frankly not all that comfortable to carry.  So I don't

Instead, lately, I tend toward the smaller/lighter/thinner end of the spectrum.  Currently a Glock 43X.  10 rounds of 9mm, slim and light, no external safeties to worry about (or snag on things).  Fits my hand well, and yet is almost small enough that, in a well-made IWB holster, you don't notice it's there.  It isn't any fun to shoot (light = snappy, especially with full-house ammunition) but... I sincerely hope I never *have* to shoot it.

Yeah, I know it's "only" 9mm (cue the 9-vs-45 religious debate) but... the tie-breaker is.... if SHTF, a less-than-optimal gun on your belt is far more useful than the perfect gun that's sitting at home.. 

$.02

(BTW, I wouldn't recommend ANYONE carry, unless /A/ you've built skill with the thing you choose to carry, and /B/ you've faced the decision about whether or not you're willing to use deadly force to defend an innocent life - yours or someone else's - and the consequences that may go with it.  If your head isn't clear on that... don't carry.)

 

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40 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

a CCW handgun

I own - and like a lot - a G43.  I've played with the SIG 365 - if I weren't such a Glock Fanboi, that would be my choice.  Another one to look at is the new S&W Shield EZ 9. It's getting a lot of interest.  And even though the company makes my skin crawl, the Springfield Hellcat is also getting some notice.  And I've got a soft spot for the Ruger LC9, especially the Pro, although, it's prolly a bit obsolete by now. 

As you said, the best thing is to go to the range and rent 'em all. See what you like and shoots the best in your hands.  And as Sled says - Get some training!  For my money, Massad Ayoob is the past grand master of self defense training.  His books are uniformly the best on the subject.  

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4 minutes ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

And as Sled says - Get some training!  For my money, Massad Ayoob is the past grand master of self defense training.  His books are uniformly the best on the subject.  

^ ,what he said ^

 

Here's my favorite Bowie

Bowie_.thumb.jpg.f77638dc0238ec14e98aba5c75a2426b.jpg

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1 hour ago, billy backstay said:

So, what do y'all recommend for a CCW handgun, should I finally pull that trigger, and make a purchase?  I understand that I should try various options at a range, and see what is most comfortable, if possible before making a decision.  Coupla mates like their Glock 9's, but other than the targets I  shot at the CCW class, years ago, I have little practical experience....

Do you pistol shoot on a very regular basis or have the interest in doing so?  
If not, it’s probably not worth the purchase. 

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54 minutes ago, sledracr said:

As with all things.... it depends.

I have a very nice Kimber compact "elite" something-or-other .45 that I bought for carry.  But it's big-ish and heavy-ish and frankly not all that comfortable to carry.  So I don't

Instead, lately, I tend toward the smaller/lighter/thinner end of the spectrum.  Currently a Glock 43X.  10 rounds of 9mm, slim and light, no external safeties to worry about (or snag on things).  Fits my hand well, and yet is almost small enough that, in a well-made IWB holster, you don't notice it's there.  It isn't any fun to shoot (light = snappy, especially with full-house ammunition) but... I sincerely hope I never *have* to shoot it.

Yeah, I know it's "only" 9mm (cue the 9-vs-45 religious debate) but... the tie-breaker is.... if SHTF, a less-than-optimal gun on your belt is far more useful than the perfect gun that's sitting at home.. 

$.02

(BTW, I wouldn't recommend ANYONE carry, unless /A/ you've built skill with the thing you choose to carry, and /B/ you've faced the decision about whether or not you're willing to use deadly force to defend an innocent life - yours or someone else's - and the consequences that may go with it.  If your head isn't clear on that... don't carry.)

 

You beat me to it, especially the last paragraph. 

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10 minutes ago, Mike in Seattle said:

^ ,what he said ^

 

Here's my favorite Bowie

Bowie_.thumb.jpg.f77638dc0238ec14e98aba5c75a2426b.jpg

Nice. :)

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3 hours ago, chinabald said:

This conversation made me curious to see what plugged barrel damage looks like. Glad I’m seeing these in pictures and not real life.

9B430E5B-A6F4-437B-8E7E-5FEF0A64EC8E.jpeg

42D96793-750F-4D14-A041-5C3F8DF1BA06.jpeg

Old wads left at midway in the barrel were a known cause of this, along with guys plugging the barrels with mud on a rough shoot climbing over fences etc. A good reason not to carry loaded whilst doing that..... I’ve seen a shooter rest his gun, (very lightly) barrel down in the mud and load and about to shoot, we stopped him just in time, barrel well and truly plugged. He went a strange shade of white! 

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22 minutes ago, Mike in Seattle said:

^ ,what he said ^

 

Here's my favorite Bowie

Bowie_.thumb.jpg.f77638dc0238ec14e98aba5c75a2426b.jpg

My wife’s uncle likes to drop out of trees onto giant hogs to plunge one of those things into their heart, then cut their throat. This fulfills some strange sense of fun for him. He doesn’t carry a sidearm. 

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16 minutes ago, chum said:

My wife’s uncle likes to drop out of trees onto giant hogs to plunge one of those things into their heart, then cut their throat. This fulfills some strange sense of fun for him. He doesn’t carry a sidearm. 

If you say so?? :wacko::blink:
 

12988EB4-1F5F-4E33-AE23-15685409284E.jpeg

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That’s funny except he was a bubblehead on a nuke sub for 20 years, otherwise pretty sharp guy.

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3 hours ago, billy backstay said:

So, what do y'all recommend for a CCW handgun, should I finally pull that trigger, and make a purchase?  I understand that I should try various options at a range, and see what is most comfortable, if possible before making a decision.  Coupla mates like their Glock 9's, but other than the targets I  shot at the CCW class, years ago, I have little practical experience....

Do you need one? Want one?

Concealed carry is a can of worms in my opinion, low on satisfaction dragging a gun around all the time like some kind of Bernie Goetz jonesing for someone to screw with you.

Billy ... before you turn yourself irrationally paranoid by toting a concealed gun around the suburbs, maybe get yourself an an easy-to-learn foiler like a Waszp? I've never known someone who flies those moths that doesn't always have a permanent grin screwed onto their face. Then, if that still doesn't do it for the winter months, maybe get yourself a nice Marlin or Remington lever action.

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16 minutes ago, chum said:

That’s funny except he was a bubblehead on a nuke sub for 20 years, otherwise pretty sharp guy.

Anybody else see the possibility of a correlation between those 2 things??  That definitely doesn’t sound like normal behaviour, especially not if he’s serving on a nuke sub, the psych evaluations should have flagged that, or quite the stories! 

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2 minutes ago, chum said:

It’s big sport here down south.

Ok, I’ll consider myself educated.  Not sure I really want to google that though. 

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I actually have a lot of respect for guys that harvest hogs this way, talk about getting close to your food. It’s not for me, frankly it looks scary as shit. Like noodling, not for the faint of heart.

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10 minutes ago, chum said:

I actually have a lot of respect for guys that harvest hogs this way, talk about getting close to your food. It’s not for me, frankly it looks scary as shit. Like noodling, not for the faint of heart.

Well...... I suppose if the other choice was no bacon, no sausage, no hog roast, ribs or chops forever?!!!!! :P  

A rifle springs to mind as a much more sensible option. 

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2 minutes ago, mad said:

A rifle springs to mind as a much more sensible option. 

Seems that way to me too but I have a friend who likes to kill gators with a knife. He'd probably get along well with the hog-stabbing submariner.

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At least  carry a big sidearm in case the knife slips with all the blood and tusks flying. 

Not her uncle. 

22563AA0-6C94-4AFB-B334-95AC45F875B1.jpeg.24297addb2a42032edea26aace843eae.jpeg

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9 minutes ago, chum said:

I actually have a lot of respect for guys that harvest hogs this way, talk about getting close to your food. It’s not for me, frankly it looks scary as shit. Like noodling, not for the faint of heart.

If your game is boar, I'm told it's the best way to do it because the male hormones apparently make the meat taste like shit. They bulldog and hogtie him, cut off his balls, dock his tail and let him loose. A year later or so, if they see the same hog, they can kill it the regular way and it supposedly tastes good.

My friend spent a few years doing this, and then finally switched to just raising a few piglets. He told me that the latter makes more meat, better tasting for a tenth of the effort. When you buy "wild boar" meat in the deli, it's supposedly farm raised from "wild boar" stocks. I suspect there is actually zero difference between farm-raised wild boar and field-raised pigs, but the marketing machine must continue to run.

When I was a teenager, a big fish as the "orange roughy" which had an incredible taste because they swim so fucking deep, like insanely deep. This miraculously delicious fish was just dropped from heaven, a decade later we all found out that "orange roughy" was just slimehead that nobody could sell in the 1960s and 1970s because of the nasty name.

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Only on SA could you possibly end up with such high quality random thread drift!!  :lol::lol:

Thanks for education as well. 

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8 minutes ago, chum said:

At least  carry a big sidearm in case the knife slips with all the blood and tusks flying. 

Not her uncle. 

22563AA0-6C94-4AFB-B334-95AC45F875B1.jpeg.24297addb2a42032edea26aace843eae.jpeg

I’ll take my chances with the hog please? 

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Getting stabbed has got to suck bigly. Getting bayoneted with something like that would suck bigly er. But so would getting shot. I’m glad I’m not a feral hog.

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22 minutes ago, mikewof said:

 

If your game is boar, I'm told it's the best way to do it because the male hormones apparently make the meat taste like shit. They bulldog and hogtie him, cut off his balls, dock his tail and let him loose. A year later or so, if they see the same hog, they can kill it the regular way and it supposedly tastes good.

My friend spent a few years doing this, and then finally switched to just raising a few piglets. He told me that the latter makes more meat, better tasting for a tenth of the effort. When you buy "wild boar" meat in the deli, it's supposedly farm raised from "wild boar" stocks. I suspect there is actually zero difference between farm-raised wild boar and field-raised pigs, but the marketing machine must continue to run.

When I was a teenager, a big fish as the "orange roughy" which had an incredible taste because they swim so fucking deep, like insanely deep. This miraculously delicious fish was just dropped from heaven, a decade later we all found out that "orange roughy" was just slimehead that nobody could sell in the 1960s and 1970s because of the nasty name.

Hate to do it, but calling bullshit on this one Mikey...we kill boars all the time...sure, first step is to cut balls off after a kill, but we damn sure don't "bulldog and hogtie" the fuckers and give 'em another year...you just can't do that to a wild fuckin' pig...and once you've cleared them of their nuts they taste just fine...in fact I just sliced into a wild hog coppa I've been sitting on for about 8 months this afternoon...yeah we've got some local guys who grab and pen piglets, mainly to corn feed them before slaughter, and we've got more than a few good ol' boys who knife hunt them...but you just ain't gonna hog wrestle those crazy fucks...

20191222_142613.jpg

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3 hours ago, mad said:

Old wads left at midway in the barrel were a known cause of this, along with guys plugging the barrels with mud on a rough shoot climbing over fences etc. A good reason not to carry loaded whilst doing that..... I’ve seen a shooter rest his gun, (very lightly) barrel down in the mud and load and about to shoot, we stopped him just in time, barrel well and truly plugged. He went a strange shade of white! 

Guy I know once mud plugged an old pos pump gun on purpose. Strapped it to a tire and tied a string to the trigger. Crouched behind something and fired it. It wound up looking like the top one. He did it as a demonstration in a hunters safety class. Hopefully the kids in that class remember that because it was a pretty good demo. 

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1 hour ago, Grabbler said:

Hate to do it, but calling bullshit on this one Mikey...we kill boars all the time...sure, first step is to cut balls off after a kill, but we damn sure don't "bulldog and hogtie" the fuckers and give 'em another year...you just can't do that to a wild fuckin' pig...and once you've cleared them of their nuts they taste just fine...in fact I just sliced into a wild hog coppa I've been sitting on for about 8 months this afternoon...yeah we've got some local guys who grab and pen piglets, mainly to corn feed them before slaughter, and we've got more than a few good ol' boys who knife hunt them...but you just ain't gonna hog wrestle those crazy fucks...

20191222_142613.jpg

I'll have to trust you on the deliciousness of feral hogs, I've never tasted one. I'm told that the sows taste good and the boars like crap. I do agree with you that it takes someone of stone cujones to bulldog one of those crazy fucking pigs, I assume a trap helps ...

A pig hunter I met in Alabama lost three well-trained Brazilian Dogos to one angry boar. He was heartbroken. The hog took them out one by one in the brush.

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6 hours ago, billy backstay said:

So, what do y'all recommend for a CCW handgun, should I finally pull that trigger, and make a purchase?  I understand that I should try various options at a range, and see what is most comfortable, if possible before making a decision.  Coupla mates like their Glock 9's, but other than the targets I  shot at the CCW class, years ago, I have little practical experience....

After carrying many different types, I finally settled on a Smith & Wesson 638 38+p revolver. 

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1 hour ago, Dorado said:

After carrying many different types, I finally settled on a Smith & Wesson 638 38+p revolver. 

Very similar to my carry weapon, a Colt Cobra snubbie also loaded with .38+P. 

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5 hours ago, Orion Jim said:

Very similar to my carry weapon, a Colt Cobra snubbie also loaded with .38+P. 

 Guaranteed to go Pow, instead of Click, or DOH !, or Oh Shit . . .

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10 hours ago, mikewof said:

I'll have to trust you on the deliciousness of feral hogs, I've never tasted one. I'm told that the sows taste good and the boars like crap.

I was told that too but I shot a boar that wandered into my yard a few years ago and he was tasty and had a pretty impressive amount of fat for a wild animal.

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1 hour ago, Dorado said:

 Guaranteed to go Pow, instead of Click, or DOH !, or Oh Shit . . .

Don't those three all run in the same line? ;)

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Don't those three all run in the same line? ;)

Not with a revolver, they don't. :)

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The safest thing you can do is not carry.

My son has a shotgun in the corner of his bedroom.

Some might call me a bad influence in this regard.

He was in the shower when his home alarm sounded.  He jumped out soaking wet and ran down the stairs ready to confront the intruders.  And then he let the lady in who was there to clean the house.

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On 12/21/2019 at 7:50 PM, Timo42 said:

Pulled my 18" 870 with the folding stock out of my bag at Oaktree...the way my brother reacted, you'd a thought my fly was open. Had to beat him with my dad's 20's vintage Parker upland game gun.B)

We often shot “Cowboy Trap” with our SASS splatter guns: 18” barrels and cylinder bores (no choke).  Pretty close to your self-defense gun. Yah gotta jump on the bird right durn now! Great fun.  I wuz  chootin’ a fairly constant 20-22...

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On 12/17/2019 at 5:43 PM, billy backstay said:

,,,

I have never been a hunter, other than fishing for bluefish or striped bass, but we have a 125 acre woodland near us that has been in the family since 1950.  Most of my cousins who are co-owners don't want hunters out there killing "Bambi".  Even though some of their husbands are hunters.  I don't think I want to deal with the butchering, but if cousin wants to throw me a deer tenderloin, I will be very grateful, should they ever change their minds....

, my unsolicited two cents worth of opinion ,,

This is  something you should do.

 

Load your own  rifle,

, walk into that woodland, 

,find a forked horn , place those crosshairs,

control your heart, , and pull that trigger.

You need your knife to make that first cut, 

(ask one of your hunter cousins to tell you the steps)

It should be your hands and arms bloody when finished.

 

This is something you should do, even if only one time.

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21 minutes ago, Mike in Seattle said:

, my unsolicited two cents worth of opinion ,,

This is  something you should do.

 

Load your own  rifle,

, walk into that woodland, 

,find a forked horn , place those crosshairs,

control your heart, , and pull that trigger.

You need your knife to make that first cut, 

(ask one of your hunter cousins to tell you the steps)

It should be your hands and arms bloody when finished.

 

This is something you should do, even if only one time.

I completely agree with this sentiment. 

For most people the eating of meat has been sterilized to the point they have no clue what it takes to put that steak on the plate or the burger in their hands.

I like to tell people that in order for me to eat meat something has to die, and I don't mind doing the dirty work.

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3 hours ago, bmiller said:

I completely agree with this sentiment. 

For most people the eating of meat has been sterilized to the point they have no clue what it takes to put that steak on the plate or the burger in their hands.

I like to tell people that in order for me to eat meat something has to die, and I don't mind doing the dirty work.

 

I'm sure it is a near religious experience and satisfies some basic human core, but not sure I will ever be ready for anything more than cleaning fish.....

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Last July, I took a granddaughter on her very first "camping in the mountains with Gramps".

I took her to a natural lake, with picnic tables and a bathroom.

She likes swimming a lot, but has only been in concrete pools, and asked if she could.

I took her away from where a young couple were fishing.

As she put the first foot in, she hesitated, and asked  "Gramps,  ? what kind of animals live in here ? "

After I assured her there no three headed sharks, kraken,  crocodiles,  or anacondas,  she  had a good time.

 

She's a sociable  little kid, and went to see the two young people, and they offered to give her the two small brook trout they had caught.

I asked her she wanted to cook and eat them, and she said yes.

" You realize we have to clean their innards out to do that ?"   she thought for a second and said yes.

We went back to camp, and young couple wanted to watch.

I made the cut, handed her the fish, and said "all that's gotta come out"

Quote

 Eewww, I can't, ,  eww, I can't,  ewww, I can't, eww, I can't , it's slippery, eww, I can't,

     ,  and she got the job done.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mike in Seattle said:

Last July, I took a granddaughter on her very first "camping in the mountains with Gramps".

I took her to a natural lake, with picnic tables and a bathroom.

She likes swimming a lot, but has only been in concrete pools, and asked if she could.

I took her away from where a young couple were fishing.

As she put the first foot in, she hesitated, and asked  "Gramps,  ? what kind of animals live in here ? "

After I assured her there no three headed sharks, kraken,  crocodiles,  or anacondas,  she  had a good time.

 

She's a sociable  little kid, and went to see the two young people, and they offered to give her the two small brook trout they had caught.

I asked her she wanted to cook and eat them, and she said yes.

" You realize we have to clean their innards out to do that ?"   she thought for a second and said yes.

We went back to camp, and young couple wanted to watch.

I made the cut, handed her the fish, and said "all that's gotta come out"

     ,  and she got the job done.

 

 

 

Sounds very similar to my upbringing, courtesy of my Grandfather. 
 

Grandparents are cool. 

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, it seems like kids are being taught  "you can't"  and "afraid of" 

"I'm afraid of "   skeeters,  bugs,  spiders,  and on and on.

 

It is not too hard to free a mind that wants to be free

 

I had packed a spray can of "off",  she read the label,  I told her close eyes & spread arms,  misted across, "turn around" mist across,

Bulletproof.

, we were walking along a trail,  she pointed, said  "I'm afraid of " ,  and I clapped where she pointed and said "what spider ?"

, and could see her processing

 

 

Warning, Thread Drift

Image result for chogan tomahawk

(part of my arsenal)

 

She wanted to try her hand splitting firewood.  

  (Meli,  stop crying,,  get back in the kitchen, and, well,, you should know by now)

 

We  spent quite a while talking about "what happens if you miss?"   with a tree branch as an "axe" showing where it would hit on my foot or leg,   , and could see her processing.  

, we got her stance, hold, etc.  sorted,  and then it's time for the Jedi stuff about focus  the mind  though the edge of the steel.

Then a piece of wood on the block,  and a bit more Jedi

I have her lay her blade where I draw an invisible line with my finger, and then stand back, ,      "split that" 

Her eyes got big when two pieces flew away.  

She kept it up,  and by the end of the trip,  she was standing 1 inch square piece of kindling up,  and dividing those in half.

 

, heard from Dad a few days later

"When she got home, she told me "Dad, I'm not afraid of bugs anymore""

 

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.
If you aren't fortunate enough to have a grandfather like Mike in Seattle, the Appleseed Project (https://appleseedinfo.org/) is an excellent way to get a great grounding in firearms safety, history and marksmanship.  All for about $15 for children and $60 for adults - for two days of top-notch training.  Until the 3rd of January, there's a 40% reduction offer through the website. The coupon is good for a year.

I can't think of better training, other than Mike in Seattle's.

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Funny this should be mentioned...Grabs Jr took Grabs Jr Jr on his first hunts this weekend...sit 'em in a stand, provide "quiet" snacks and some form of entertainment...point out the squirrels and birds...and maybe, just maybe they'll let out a "Deer! Dadda! Deer!"...throw kid off lap and take a shot...sometimes magic happens...

FB_IMG_1577666871910.jpg

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I gave my late father's hunting rifles and knife to his only grandson yesterday.  They will go to his son one day.  It was emotional for both of us.

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17 hours ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

.
If you aren't fortunate enough to have a grandfather like Mike in Seattle, the Appleseed Project (https://appleseedinfo.org/) is an excellent way to get a great grounding in firearms safety, history and marksmanship.  All for about $15 for children and $60 for adults - for two days of top-notch training.  Until the 3rd of January, there's a 40% reduction offer through the website. The coupon is good for a year.

I can't think of better training, other than Mike in Seattle's.

Forgot to mention that Appleseed is pretty much nation-wide, and even in Cantucky under the Mapleseed banner.  Appleseed classes are taught year-round (weather permitting) in hundreds of locations.  It's a good bet that you'll find an Appleseed event within an hour or two drive.  As a personal example; eleven 2020 classes will be taught 8 miles away from me.  The Appleseed Info website above will give you all the particulars.   

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When my eldest son was close to graduating from HS we were discussing what was next. He said I want to go to gunsmithing school. So he did two years at Trinidad State. He wound up working for a machine shop and runs his gunsmith business on the side. Has all the work he wants.

Needless to say my grandson can shoot.

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1 hour ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Forgot to mention that Appleseed is pretty much nation-wide, and even in Cantucky under the Mapleseed banner.  Appleseed classes are taught year-round (weather permitting) in hundreds of locations.  It's a good bet that you'll find an Appleseed event within an hour or two drive.  As a personal example; eleven 2020 classes will be taught 8 miles away from me.  The Appleseed Info website above will give you all the particulars.   

 

I had not heard of this before.  There is a one day  event in nearby Guilford, CT, on a Saturday in March for 45 bucks.  I guess you bring your own rifles, and I guess they only allow certain calibers, so I probably could not use the Mini-14?

 

"Our events are not caliber specific. It doesn’t matter to us if you use .308, .30-06, .223, .22, 7.62×39, 8mm, .303 — they’re all fine. If you’re a good marksman, you’ll be able to hit with any caliber, though .22LR is typically preferred as a good economical choice.

Some locations allow only 22 Rimfire ammunition. Please see the registration page for each location for more information."

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3 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

I had not heard of this before.  There is a one day  event in nearby Guilford, CT, on a Saturday in March for 45 bucks.  I guess you bring your own rifles, and I guess they only allow certain calibers, so I probably could not use the Mini-14?

 

"Our events are not caliber specific. It doesn’t matter to us if you use .308, .30-06, .223, .22, 7.62×39, 8mm, .303 — they’re all fine. If you’re a good marksman, you’ll be able to hit with any caliber, though .22LR is typically preferred as a good economical choice.

Some locations allow only 22 Rimfire ammunition. Please see the registration page for each location for more information."

Why couldn't you use the Ruger?

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42 minutes ago, bmiller said:

Why couldn't you use the Ruger?

 

You are correct, I misread it.

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Never been to a one day Appleseed event - sounds interesting. 

Here's a good guide on preparing for the class:  https://appleseedinfo.org/how-to-prepare/  To the right, there's a document about the suggested Liberty Training Rifle.  

My Appleseed whip is a 10/22, specifically the 50th Anniversary Winner 10/22.  https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/ruger-anniversary-design-contest-winner/  Because of the eyes taking early retirement, I use a low power (1-3) scope. (Now, I'd go 1-4.) I've also put in the Ruger BX precision trigger, a Volquartsen bolt release and Exact Edge extractor, and a T3 mag release. The sling is VERY important, I use a WWII canvas M1 sling purchased from Appleseed - the old steel adjusters just seem to grip the canvas much better than the nylon webbing.

 

P1010852.jpg

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On 12/30/2019 at 9:45 PM, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Never been to a one day Appleseed event - sounds interesting. 

Here's a good guide on preparing for the class:  https://appleseedinfo.org/how-to-prepare/  To the right, there's a document about the suggested Liberty Training Rifle.  

My Appleseed whip is a 10/22, specifically the 50th Anniversary Winner 10/22.  https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/ruger-anniversary-design-contest-winner/  Because of the eyes taking early retirement, I use a low power (1-3) scope. (Now, I'd go 1-4.) I've also put in the Ruger BX precision trigger, a Volquartsen bolt release and Exact Edge extractor, and a T3 mag release. The sling is VERY important, I use a WWII canvas M1 sling purchased from Appleseed - the old steel adjusters just seem to grip the canvas much better than the nylon webbing.

 

P1010852.jpg

 

Only available used now??

 

image.thumb.png.423572ec206c684d9d7e5e8ba37ba33b.png

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On 12/30/2019 at 2:35 PM, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Forgot to mention that Appleseed is pretty much nation-wide, and even in Cantucky under the Mapleseed banner.  Appleseed classes are taught year-round (weather permitting) in hundreds of locations.  It's a good bet that you'll find an Appleseed event within an hour or two drive.  As a personal example; eleven 2020 classes will be taught 8 miles away from me.  The Appleseed Info website above will give you all the particulars.   

For some reason I can’t seem to open that link?? 
 

I did some other reading about them though, interesting group and background! 
 

Quote

So far Appleseed has taught 25,000 people to shoot; 7,000 more will learn by the end of this year. Its instructors teach this skill not for the purpose of hunting or sport. They see marksmanship as fundamental to Americans’ ability to defend their liberty, whether against foreigners or the agents of a (hypothetical) tyrannical government. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/magazine/01Appleseed-t.html
Is this a new NRA in the making?

 

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52 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

Only available used now??

 

image.thumb.png.423572ec206c684d9d7e5e8ba37ba33b.png

Yah, the 50th anniversary of the 10/22 was about 5 years ago. But you can get basically the same rifle as a Distributor Exclusive.  I think Davidson does these special runs. 

1.jpghttps://ruger.com/products/1022Carbine/specSheets/31115.html

The stock is the tits. The black rear comes off and you can put in one with a longer length of pull and a cheek rest for use with an optic. Ruger is now making a Cutom Shop competition 10/22 which is supposed to be one hole accurate.  It's about $800 street.  Ruger.com 

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6 minutes ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Yah, the 50th anniversary of the 10/22 was about 5 years ago. But you can get basically the same rifle as a Distributor Exclusive.  I think Davidson does these special runs. 

1.jpghttps://ruger.com/products/1022Carbine/specSheets/31115.html

The stock is the tits. The black rear comes off and you can put in one with a longer length of pull and a cheek rest for use with an optic. Ruger is now making a Cutom Shop competition 10/22 which is supposed to be one hole accurate.  It's about $800 street.  Ruger.com 

Like the idea of the easily adjustable stock. 

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53 minutes ago, mad said:

For some reason I can’t seem to open that link?? 
 

I did some other reading about them though, interesting group and background! 
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/magazine/01Appleseed-t.html
Is this a new NRA in the making?

 

Huh... It opened on my dinoputer, and I've got the security level set to PARANOID. 

Appleseed isn't overtly political. Their stated objective is to make America a Nation of Riflemen again.  They do discuss why that's important, using the Concord/ Lexington start of the Revolutionary War as a focus. It is a largely volunteer organization.  The instructors are not paid, they do it for the love of teaching and the importance of their mission. 

"....(hypothetical) tyrannical government" my neon white ass.  :rolleyes:

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1 minute ago, mad said:

Like the idea of the easily adjustable stock. 

Yup. In about 3 minutes I can change the stock to fit a small woman or child. 

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35 minutes ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Huh... It opened on my dinoputer, and I've got the security level set to PARANOID. 

Appleseed isn't overtly political. Their stated objective is to make America a Nation of Riflemen again.  They do discuss why that's important, using the Concord/ Lexington start of the Revolutionary War as a focus. It is a largely volunteer organization.  The instructors are not paid, they do it for the love of teaching and the importance of their mission. 

"....(hypothetical) tyrannical government" my neon white ass.  :rolleyes:

I’ll try from another browser and device next week, tried from the link and from a web search or 2. 

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Like the idea of the easily adjustable stock. 

I may have mentioned this before, but my wife's 10-22 has an adjustable stock. The pic below shows it retracted, also known as assassin mode. This is the distinguishing feature that makes it an "assault" weapon, at least according to a distinguished list of Presidential candidates.

Ruger10-22AssassinMode.jpg

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27 minutes ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

I may have mentioned this before, but my wife's 10-22 has an adjustable stock. The pic below shows it retracted, also known as assassin mode. This is the distinguishing feature that makes it an "assault" weapon, at least according to a distinguished list of Presidential candidates.

Ruger10-22AssassinMode.jpg

I can feel the eviiiiiiiiil from here!

What's the break open?  You have more than one barrel/ caliber? 

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2 hours ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Yup. In about 3 minutes I can change the stock to fit a small woman or child. 

Why would you want a small woman or child to wear the stock? 

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2 hours ago, mad said:

Like the idea of the easily adjustable stock. 

I've had my eye on the Boyd's AT-one stock for my 22 caliber rifle made by Ruger with no Ruger parts in it.

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4 minutes ago, Hatin' life said:

I've had my eye on the Boyd's AT-one stock for my 22 caliber rifle made by Ruger with no Ruger parts in it.

Heavily modified? 

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20 minutes ago, mad said:

Heavily modified? 

Nope.  Built entirely from parts.

Almost entirely Volquartsen parts.

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2 minutes ago, Hatin' life said:

Nope.  Built entirely from parts.

Almost entirely Volquartsen parts.

Proper.

Who made your barrel? 

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2 hours ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

I may have mentioned this before, but my wife's 10-22 has an adjustable stock. The pic below shows it retracted, also known as assassin mode. This is the distinguishing feature that makes it an "assault" weapon, at least according to a distinguished list of Presidential candidates.

Ruger10-22AssassinMode.jpg

I like those lever actions, I grew up on those. I don't use the two guns I have (an M1 Carbine and a Mosin) but I think I might be temped to go back to the range again if I ever get one of those lever actions.

The most deadly part of my arsenal I've found is the part of my arsenal that is always with me ... my throwing arm and whatever rocks happen to be nearby when those coyotes come poking around. Nothing beats a quick response with those guys. I used to use a variety of weapons that wouldn't get me in trouble with the sheriff, but the coyotes don't seem to perceive much danger the wrist rockets and gravel-filled snowball throwers ... I also wasted valuable seconds getting those ready. Rock and arm are ready almost instantly. When a rock lands near them or on them, they don't seem to come back for a while. I think I could probably get a couple bunnies each day with just rocks if hunger ever arises. They are hard to hit, but there are so many of them that there is always another chance.

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Just now, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Proper.

Who made your barrel? 

Volquartsen.

Also the stainless receiver, trigger group, and bolt.

Almost entirely Volquartsen.  I don't remember what brand thumbhole stock I put on it.  Picatinny from somewhere, rings from somewhere else.  1-10 scope.

 

I put it together almost about ten years ago.  At the time a buddy and I were shooting a lot.  Like a lot.  I bet that fricking rifle has had 30k rounds put through it.  There's a lot of little things that need replacement, the guide rod for the action spring is chewed to shit from the spring.  The extractor is pretty worn.

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On 12/21/2019 at 7:42 PM, Dorado said:

 I had a friend who had an Accuracy International in 338 Lapua Magnum with a Schmidt and Bender scope. Awesome rifle. 

 But I could outshoot him with my Steyr 308 / Nikon scope rifle out to 300 yards where we normally shot.  My rifle and scope cost about 10% of what his rig had cost him. The difference was he shot factory rounds and I handloaded my cartridges specifically for that particular rifle. 

Valuable lesson that  . . .

I've got a CZ 527 Varmint in .223. When I first bought it (heavily used) I took it to the range on the way home to try it out with some run-of-the-mill commercial ammo. I found that its accuracy was okay, but not great. I ordered some .223 dies, brass, and bullets and while I was waiting for delivery, I did a thorough cleaning of the barrel with copper solvent and did a bore paste treatment. I took it back to the range, used the same ammo, and it was a bit better but still not great. Once all the reloading stuff arrived, I loaded up some rounds with the bullets seated 0.015" off the lands. The OAL was long enough that the rounds wouldn't fit in the box magazine anymore but the accuracy jumped dramatically. 

The rifle and ammo really are a system and you've got to optimize them as such. 

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11 minutes ago, IStream said:

I've got a CZ 527 Varmint in .223. When I first bought it (heavily used) I took it to the range on the way home to try it out with some run-of-the-mill commercial ammo. I found that its accuracy was okay, but not great. I ordered some .223 dies, brass, and bullets and while I was waiting for delivery, I did a thorough cleaning of the barrel with copper solvent and did a bore paste treatment. I took it back to the range, used the same ammo, and it was a bit better but still not great. Once all the reloading stuff arrived, I loaded up some rounds with the bullets seated 0.015" off the lands. The OAL was long enough that the rounds wouldn't fit in the box magazine anymore but the accuracy jumped dramatically. 

The rifle and ammo really are a system and you've got to optimize them as such. 

Hmmm . . .

Barrels have finite lifespan. 0.015 off the lands and won't fit in the mag sounds like throat erosion issues. Pretty common in a .223 varmint rifle (heavily used).

Time for a new barrel I'm thinking. Shouldn't cost too much for that CZ.

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10 hours ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

What's the break open?  You have more than one barrel/ caliber? 

That's a Rossi and the barrel shown is .17HMR. I do have a .410 shotgun barrel for that gun but it has almost never been used. It has a surprising kick as a shotgun, probably due to being so small and light.

.17HMR is a .22 magnum necked down to .17. It's fun to shoot. Turns an orange into a cloud of mist.

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The 17 HMR is an awesome round. Far superior to the dogballs. I use it to eradicate any ground squirrels that show up in the neighborhood. Those little shits can wreak havoc on the horse properties around here if they get a colony established. I set up a portable shooting bench with a cast iron rest and everything within 130 yards is doomed. Sighted in at 125 yards, the max ordinate is only an inch high at 80 yards. It's like a damn laser beam. 

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10 hours ago, Dorado said:

Hmmm . . .

Barrels have finite lifespan. 0.015 off the lands and won't fit in the mag sounds like throat erosion issues. Pretty common in a .223 varmint rifle (heavily used).

Time for a new barrel I'm thinking. Shouldn't cost too much for that CZ.

Entirely possible, as I have no idea how many rounds it's swallowed. However, the barrel and throat don't look bad and the difference in length between 0.015" off the lands and what'll fit in the mag is measured in 0.1"ths, not 0.01"ths. If this delta was due entirely to throat erosion, I'd be surprised as the barrel is still damned accurate.

Still, I'll take a look today as it's been quite some time since I last reloaded for or shot this one. In fact, it might be a good excuse to hit the range today and enjoy the last good weather for awhile. 

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12 hours ago, IStream said:

 I loaded up some rounds with the bullets seated 0.015" off the lands. The OAL was long enough that the rounds wouldn't fit in the box magazine anymore but the accuracy jumped dramatically. 

This is pretty common, and does not (necessarily) imply throat erosion.

As with many firearms things, rife accuracy is a combination of trade-offs.... Among the biggest effects are the distance the bullet has to jump before engaging the rifling, and the degree of consistency with which it is aligned for the trip (*)   In order to get those things optimized for accuracy, you (generally) have to "load long", and many times that means the resulting rounds won't feed from a box mag.  This is especially true with gas-guns, but not unknown in bolt-action guns.... note the number of products available from places like Sinclair International that are oriented around single-feeding rounds into a chamber.

Other trade-offs to consider include things like "loading to the lands" (can improve accuracy, but can dramatically increase pressures), and "loading for reliability" (using undersized neck and sizing dies to ensure the rounds will feed, but at the cost of that consistent alignment).  And probably a couple of dozen other variables to play with.  That's why, when I'm loading 6.5mm rounds for a competition, it can take a whole weekend to produce 100 rounds that I "believe in".

(*) consistency, at the end of the day, is king.  I had a match barrel built for one of my rifles a few years back by Lilja, and had the occasion to ask a bunch of questions.  What length?  what twist?  what crown?  what leade?  what weight?  what? what? what?  He shared his opinion that, ultimately, the thing that has the greatest effect on accuracy is the relationship between the chambered round and the rifling.  He said that the bullet "doesn't care" about the barrel once it has left - all of the things that affect its performance (velocity, spin, alignment, stability) happen between the chamber and the muzzle, and the most important of those is the way it *entered* the barrel.  "give me a short barrel with a good chamber, I'll get accuracy.  give me a long barrel with a crappy chamber, the accuracy will never be acceptable."

$.02

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On 12/22/2019 at 5:27 PM, chum said:

It’s big sport here down south.

 

This fellow was about ten miles up the road from me and started a Spear Hunting Museum.  Called himself 'SpearChucker', Gene Morris. 

     This quote is attributed to him, 

image.png.f4ac35700711600eb034fdf81c70bb7a.png

 

    He was stationed in Hawaii and got invited to go wild boar hunting with some of the Hawaiian Brudda's and was hooked. 

 

Image result for Gene Morris

 

 

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

This is pretty common, and does not (necessarily) imply throat erosion.

As with many firearms things, rife accuracy is a combination of trade-offs.... Among the biggest effects are the distance the bullet has to jump before engaging the rifling, and the degree of consistency with which it is aligned for the trip (*)   In order to get those things optimized for accuracy, you (generally) have to "load long", and many times that means the resulting rounds won't feed from a box mag.  This is especially true with gas-guns, but not unknown in bolt-action guns.... note the number of products available from places like Sinclair International that are oriented around single-feeding rounds into a chamber.

Other trade-offs to consider include things like "loading to the lands" (can improve accuracy, but can dramatically increase pressures), and "loading for reliability" (using undersized neck and sizing dies to ensure the rounds will feed, but at the cost of that consistent alignment).  And probably a couple of dozen other variables to play with.  That's why, when I'm loading 6.5mm rounds for a competition, it can take a whole weekend to produce 100 rounds that I "believe in".

(*) consistency, at the end of the day, is king.  I had a match barrel built for one of my rifles a few years back by Lilja, and had the occasion to ask a bunch of questions.  What length?  what twist?  what crown?  what leade?  what weight?  what? what? what?  He shared his opinion that, ultimately, the thing that has the greatest effect on accuracy is the relationship between the chambered round and the rifling.  He said that the bullet "doesn't care" about the barrel once it has left - all of the things that affect its performance (velocity, spin, alignment, stability) happen between the chamber and the muzzle, and the most important of those is the way it *entered* the barrel.  "give me a short barrel with a good chamber, I'll get accuracy.  give me a long barrel with a crappy chamber, the accuracy will never be acceptable."

$.02

Agreed on all counts. I also prefer to neck size my brass rather than full length resizing it. I find that even if I don't take the trouble to clock the brass in the chamber, I still get better accuracy. Again, it comes down to the consistency with which the bullet enters the rifling. If the brass is undersized for the chamber, the longitudinal axis of the bullet isn't as well aligned with the longitudinal axis of the barrel prior to engaging the rifling.

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

 

This fellow was about ten miles up the road from me and started a Spear Hunting Museum.  Called himself 'SpearChucker', Gene Morris. 

     This quote is attributed to him, 

image.png.f4ac35700711600eb034fdf81c70bb7a.png

 

    He was stationed in Hawaii and got invited to go wild boar hunting with some of the Hawaiian Brudda's and was hooked. 

 

Says "Spear Chunker", not Chucker...

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Chucker, Chunker, the guy can call himself anything he wants!

    He can argue about it with this guy,

Image result for mash spearchucker jones

Or maybe with Eddie Murphy!

 

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4 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

 

This fellow was about ten miles up the road from me and started a Spear Hunting Museum.  Called himself 'SpearChucker', Gene Morris. 

     This quote is attributed to him, 

image.png.f4ac35700711600eb034fdf81c70bb7a.png

 

    He was stationed in Hawaii and got invited to go wild boar hunting with some of the Hawaiian Brudda's and was hooked. 

 

Image result for Gene Morris

 

 

Thanks for posting this. Her uncle lives near that museum. Interesting.

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