Stingray~

INEOS Team GB

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^ nice deep angle for the amount of breeze on the water.

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9 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

 

I'd love to see the top half of that photo.  Given the traveler location I suspect there is some serious twist going on. 

Best photo that I recall showing how the jib lines up with the side features/walls of the deck. 

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4 hours ago, buckdouger said:

Best photo that I recall showing how the jib lines up with the side features/walls of the deck. 

Cannot be serious....??

Capture.PNG

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8 hours ago, nav said:

Cannot be serious....??

Capture.PNG

Can you elaborate on your question? Is it a question?

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38 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

Can you elaborate on your question? Is it a question?

Betteridge's law, for his and your question.

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9 hours ago, buckdouger said:

Can you elaborate on your question? Is it a question?

bottom of the main is trimmed well over centre...

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13 hours ago, buckdouger said:

Can you elaborate on your question? Is it a question?

Wondering what 'alignment' you are seeing and what significance you give it.

I see a jib sheeted to the foredeck, that's about it, even the 12m had better deck endplating than this disaster, but hey it has a 'low-profile bow!!' and you could just add a plank underneath and try to seal the whole boat :lol:

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Would make a nice cruising yacht with no angle of heel your Pimms certainly would not be at risk and a day sail range of 500 miles has got to be a plus.

Just needs some davits for the dinghy.

902ECDCD-7EAE-4A09-B63A-564D7DB7BF96.png.fe78e154f3f855f22292e40b6e82bfd6.png

 

 

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5 hours ago, nav said:

Poms love a trench ;)

And a glorious defeat :D

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9 hours ago, nav said:

Wondering what 'alignment' you are seeing and what significance you give it.

I see a jib sheeted to the foredeck, that's about it, even the 12m had better deck endplating than this disaster, but hey it has a 'low-profile bow!!' and you could just add a plank underneath and try to seal the whole boat :lol:

Ah, wasn't referring to endplating of the headsails (blue), I was referring to the photo showing the alignment of the camber of the jib to the 'walls' of the hull (yellow), can't recall what people are calling them..

image.png.df825ca5e93ed954ef7e492b301e5f93.png

The significance still remains a mystery to me, and I haven't read any great theories here or elsewhere, though there was a CFD capture from a promo video of an old hull showing some streamlines in the area.

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are you theorizing that the crew sits in the spoiled wind area to reduce further their windage / drag  ?

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2 hours ago, uflux said:

And a glorious defeat :D

The Charge of the Light Brigade comes to mind. One might even describe Rita in Hippos terms. ;-)

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2 hours ago, buckdouger said:

Ah, wasn't referring to endplating of the headsails (blue), I was referring to the photo showing the alignment of the camber of the jib to the 'walls' of the hull (yellow), can't recall what people are calling them..

image.png.df825ca5e93ed954ef7e492b301e5f93.png

The significance still remains a mystery to me, and I haven't read any great theories here or elsewhere, though there was a CFD capture from a promo video of an old hull showing some streamlines in the area.

Yeah as I figured - there is nothing serious going on there allignment-wise, with or without arrows

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11 hours ago, nav said:

I see a jib sheeted to the foredeck, that's about it, even the 12m had better deck endplating than this disaster, but hey it has a 'low-profile bow!!' and you could just add a plank underneath and try to seal the whole boat :lol:

Hey Nav, not trying to piss on your parade, but I am certain that the picture you are referring to below, is a view from behind of the Code Zero - look at how the line of the Foot - were it to be extended forward meets the centreline at the Tip of the Bowsprit - not being a Jib which would be landing on the deck many feet aft of the stem......

(Its Light Air, Downwind - possible and Probable that they would utilise Code Zero in such circumstances)

902ECDCD-7EAE-4A09-B63A-564D7DB7BF96.png.fe78e154f3f855f22292e40b6e82bfd6.png

This is the Code Zero from side on - and it has the exact lack of deck endplating that you celebrate.

Haas and INEOS: setting sail for success

80131662_2507716266013694_154051934217568256_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=2d5d41&_nc_ohc=uEVECixOqLQAX9CxpwA&_nc_ht=scontent.fper7-1.fna&oh=b9994375568fe2657226e88f6caae1cf&oe=5ED8E9BA

Whereas the true Jib does achieve the Deck endplating that they have achieved.......

82264436_2558867627565224_9202340990755536896_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=2d5d41&_nc_ohc=TPoUMPUJ6VMAX80Rv5C&_nc_ht=scontent.fper7-1.fna&oh=3b9568d29ca75f28a15cff371a1fd97e&oe=5ED88712

and 

79596704_2482748425177145_9190387834777763840_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=49wlPKnETs8AX_qN8Hq&_nc_ht=scontent.fper7-1.fna&_nc_tp=6&oh=16f54899cfdee214f56e2f4ecc538d28&oe=5ED7850F

and

92402026_2747748215343830_6915584996593893376_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=HBI7CKSMkSUAX9xsXbS&_nc_ht=scontent.fper7-1.fna&oh=f973f1ba97646ec6f495dc5af9e38006&oe=5ED73839

I could not find a view from behind for comparison - but know that I have seen one somewhere......

So whilst it remains Ugly as Sin, pre and post Rhinoplasty, it does have good Deck Aero treatment.

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I am constantly amazed at the number of aerodynamics experts and boat design experts on this thread.

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1 hour ago, trt131 said:

I am constantly amazed at the number of aerodynamics experts and boat design experts on this thread.

Well with the bases all closed down what else are they gonna do? Sign in to SA under their pseudonyms and talk shit about each other designs.  

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7 hours ago, trt131 said:

I am constantly amazed at the number of aerodynamics experts and boat design experts on this thread.

Not quite: those ignoramuses shot down my ground effect theory ...

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12 hours ago, Boink said:

Hey Nav, not trying to piss on your parade, but I am certain that the picture you are referring to below, is a view from behind of the Code Zero - look at how the line of the Foot - were it to be extended forward meets the centreline at the Tip of the Bowsprit - not being a Jib which would be landing on the deck many feet aft of the stem......

(Its Light Air, Downwind - possible and Probable that they would utilise Code Zero in such circumstances)

902ECDCD-7EAE-4A09-B63A-564D7DB7BF96.png.fe78e154f3f855f22292e40b6e82bfd6.png

This is the Code Zero from side on - and it has the exact lack of deck endplating that you celebrate.

Haas and INEOS: setting sail for success

80131662_2507716266013694_154051934217568256_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=2d5d41&_nc_ohc=uEVECixOqLQAX9CxpwA&_nc_ht=scontent.fper7-1.fna&oh=b9994375568fe2657226e88f6caae1cf&oe=5ED8E9BA

Whereas the true Jib does achieve the Deck endplating that they have achieved.......

82264436_2558867627565224_9202340990755536896_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=2d5d41&_nc_ohc=TPoUMPUJ6VMAX80Rv5C&_nc_ht=scontent.fper7-1.fna&oh=3b9568d29ca75f28a15cff371a1fd97e&oe=5ED88712

and 

79596704_2482748425177145_9190387834777763840_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=49wlPKnETs8AX_qN8Hq&_nc_ht=scontent.fper7-1.fna&_nc_tp=6&oh=16f54899cfdee214f56e2f4ecc538d28&oe=5ED7850F

and

92402026_2747748215343830_6915584996593893376_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=HBI7CKSMkSUAX9xsXbS&_nc_ht=scontent.fper7-1.fna&oh=f973f1ba97646ec6f495dc5af9e38006&oe=5ED73839

I could not find a view from behind for comparison - but know that I have seen one somewhere......

So whilst it remains Ugly as Sin, pre and post Rhinoplasty, it does have good Deck Aero treatment.

 

Thanks, well documented and 100% correct of course, Code 0, not Jib, my bad for trying too get Buckdodger to elaborate on.....

 

On 5/4/2020 at 3:22 PM, buckdouger said:

Best photo that I recall showing how the jib lines up with the side features/walls of the deck. 

 

Cheers

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3 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

Some impressive stuff there.

Yep - The wing-shape is impressive.

Sail control systems will be a major winning factor. We can’t see the internals but can see the results in beauty photos like that one.
 

Thanks, TC for finding it. 

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Wing shape at the top, no twist in the sail, jib and lines nearly parallel to the deck wall as would say buckdouger.

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8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Detail of the top

Capture.PNG

Excellent pic. We can actually see a good demonstration of the windward skin leech being advanced beyond the leeward one (obviously making the skin shape flatter) near its head. Impressive.

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19 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Excellent pic. We can actually see a good demonstration of the windward skin leech being advanced beyond the leeward one (obviously making the skin shape flatter) near its head. Impressive.

Turns out you can make a twin-skin sail behave much like a wing after-all... whodathunkit..

Can't be bothered going back and re-quoting the nay-sayers, some aren't even here any more, at least one remains of course ;-)

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Side view. The bow pushes air wihtin the code 0. I don't know if it helps though.

Capture.PNG

Interesting thought. Fundamentally, the air accelerates over the leeward side of the sail, providing lift to windward. So, if you accelerate the air flow over the windward side of the sail (from the deck effect, as you suggest) does that affect (reduce) the lift contribution from the genoa (which of course would ordinarily be counterproductive).

On the other hand, as I understand it, the idea of endplate effect is to reduce the downward diffusion of air flow, which then increases lift across more of the trailing edge. Also, more air through the slot (between head and main sails) will have a beneficial effect, by accelerating air flow over the bottom of the main. Looks to me like another one of those damned annoying trade-offs that the designers keep running into.

As you say, TC, fuck knows.

 

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On 5/7/2020 at 1:10 PM, Sailbydate said:

Excellent pic. We can actually see a good demonstration of the windward skin leech being advanced beyond the leeward one (obviously making the skin shape flatter) near its head. Impressive.

Yeh, great shot of the main, not sure about the jib!!

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On 4/23/2020 at 2:55 AM, atwinda said:

Those designers need to be congratulated for not stopping while they were so far ahead in the ugliest boat category. Seriously though- they managed to take the only surface on that heap of junk that looked remotely nice (the bottom) and beat it with the same ugly stick as the rest of the boat. Truly impressive.

I have to question the expectation of that mod. If the goal was to get close to the bustles on ETNZ or LR, then this is the equalivent of duct taping on a cardboard spoiler to a Reliant Robin (it was the only british tripod that came to mind, also fittingly ugly and slow) and expecting to see performance improvements.

Is the centreline strake thing, still fitted to hull ?

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1 hour ago, Southern Cross said:

Is the centreline strake thing, still fitted to hull ?

They have not yet sailed since returning from Italy. So no way to know.

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^Provides a good layman's explanation of what the propeller heads are up to. Worth a read if you're not into all that techno-shit.

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On 5/7/2020 at 2:00 PM, Sailbydate said:

Fundamentally, the air accelerates over the leeward side of the sail…

air-over-wing.png.958622c43a9849c5b8d27af4b7f592a0.png

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So what's happening with the Reliant Robin?

Forward skeg added for low speed manoeuvrability? Doesn't seem like a good idea to induce getting into irons...

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On 5/15/2020 at 11:22 AM, Ncik said:

So what's happening with the Reliant Robin?

Forward skeg added for low speed manoeuvrability? Doesn't seem like a good idea to induce getting into irons...

The idea might be that sheeting on the jib at low speed induces massive lee helm as the bugger rotates about the leeward arm 'cos the rudder is next to useless at that speed. At low speed the skeg is reasonably effective at moderating that, but once they have a bit of way and the rudder starts to work (maybe 4 or 5 kn) it essentially stops doing anything. A decent chop might reduce its effectiveness though.

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On 5/15/2020 at 11:24 AM, Varan said:

okay.jpg.dc5f612e0fbaf38b39a29073b15fa333.jpg

The spermatozoa equivalent of burying one's head in the sand…

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Grant Simmer interview

 

"The initial comments from Simmer highlighted the problem of actually entering New Zealand with the quarantine requirements for non-resideints.

He said that they had not heard any news from the New Zealand Government on work visas to allow them to get their team into Auckland to complete quarantine, fit out their base and start things happening . . . “It’s hard for us to plan without that advice.”

 

Legal review of NZ visa situation for COV 19 won't allay his concerns

https://www.saunders.co.nz/immigration-covid-19-response-amendment-bill-set-to-close-new-zealands-doors-for-now/?fbclid=IwAR3_9J704W3VDmcitKV7FbFq-O737c1DGxQ0Ebbn7DWz9IGnL8QgwLFji-k

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Grant Simmer interview

"The initial comments from Simmer highlighted the problem of actually entering New Zealand with the quarantine requirements for non-residents. He said that they had not heard any news from the New Zealand Government on work visas to allow them to get their team into Auckland to complete quarantine, fit out their base and start things happening . . . “It’s hard for us to plan without that advice.”

Legal review of NZ visa situation for COV 19 won't allay his concerns.

https://www.saunders.co.nz/immigration-covid-19-response-amendment-bill-set-to-close-new-zealands-doors-for-now/?fbclid=IwAR3_9J704W3VDmcitKV7FbFq-O737c1DGxQ0Ebbn7DWz9IGnL8QgwLFji-k

Second covid waves expect July and third wave October. Source Newport Hospital medical staff vis BBC doc 

IOC President Thomas Bach says he understands why the rescheduled Tokyo 2020 Games would have to be canceled if it cannot take place next summer. Source Sailweb

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YT version of the Simmer interview, also linked to above. Pretty good.

 

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GS is in this one too, beginning around 3:00. It’s possible that others (Murray?) are also on it. (edit: yes, starting around 7:30)

 

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Despite Murray’s audio cutting out occasionally that’s a really good listen. 

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4 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

YT version of the Simmer interview, also linked to above. Pretty good.

 

If anyone really wants to know how the AC 75 works, from both a design and sailing perspective, you owe it to yourself to watch this from beginning to end. At some point, they go into modern AC history from a sailor's perspective in detail you you've probably never heard before, so the whole thing is worth the hour out of your life it will take.

Highly recommended.

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43 minutes ago, accnick said:

If anyone really wants to know how the AC 75 works, from both a design and sailing perspective, you owe it to yourself to watch this from beginning to end. At some point, they go into modern AC history from a sailor's perspective in detail you you've probably never heard before, so the whole thing is worth the hour out of your life it will take.

Highly recommended.

Finally got around to listening to the final 20 minutes of this one (posted previously), highly recommend it too. One remark by GS is that he thinks EB is likely to make another run at the Cup some day but his description of Ratliff is a bit longer and is among the more interesting comments. It’s pretty cool that we’ve heard so much from both TH and GS this week, even if it sucks that they have a little time for it.

 

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^ I think it was near 52:00 when GS answers a Q about what GS terms the ‘skeg.’

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interesting the description of its use,

not there for aero, not for directional stability while in displacement (he mentions that their B1 hull was designed predominantly for displacement mode)

its there so when they tack/kiss down on the water it produces some buoyancy without the massive wetted surface of the entire hull)

 

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The objective is to test if it helps to relieve the foils when tacking like LR and TNZ do. At least that he what he wants to say.

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not sure why the teams don't just throw the ball as far as they can and aim not to touch the water at all.

his discussion/comments about the pre-start were interesting, I can only assume there will be quite a short time period in the start box, get as deep as you dare then aim for the line on time without being pushed up

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14 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

not sure why the teams don't just throw the ball as far as they can and aim not to touch the water at all.

his discussion/comments about the pre-start were interesting, I can only assume there will be quite a short time period in the start box, get as deep as you dare then aim for the line on time without being pushed up

Yes, his comment about the possibility of luffing opponents off their foils during the prestart was a good one. As was his suggestion that it is unlikely.

Vasco V brought up that same subject.

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A fair shot at the cup ?

Challengers have been complaining from the beginning:

- Rules much too late. D/CoR knew it 6 months in advance

- Arm and fcs much too late

- Wind limits much too late. They might have been obliged to delay B2

- Cagliari cancelled

- Uncertainty about the possibility to get their team in NZ

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The prestart luffing was discussed here a few months ago, bringing a boat to capsize before the start will be fun.

Another point is that any boat overtaking another one downwind and luffing quickly will bring it to jump out of the water and crash. Well, the most skilled helm wins.

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51 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

A fair shot at the cup ?

Challengers have been complaining from the beginning:

- Rules much too late. D/CoR knew it 6 months in advance

- Arm and fcs much too late

- Wind limits much too late. They might have been obliged to delay B2

- Cagliari cancelled

- Uncertainty about the possibility to get their team in NZ

When is the America’s cup ever a level playing field. If you expect that you had better stick to one design. The only current valid point is access to NZ. And that is out of ETNZs control.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

A fair shot at the cup ?

Challengers have been complaining from the beginning:

- Rules much too late. D/CoR knew it 6 months in advance

- Arm and fcs much too late

- Wind limits much too late. They might have been obliged to delay B2

- Cagliari cancelled

- Uncertainty about the possibility to get their team in NZ

It could be worse:

The boat may have been forced to sail to the venue on her own bottom, just like the best part of 100 years the NYYC thought was a good idea for their challengers.

 

There is no uncertainty as to whether teams will be allowed into NZ. Any uncertainty surrounds when that will be allowed to happen and with that comes the agendas of the teams themselves. The Italians don't seem too stressed about getting to Auckland, AM is making some noise, but they have enough Kiwi's in-house to start setting up their base as has Ineos. 

If nothing has progressed in 8 weeks then the challengers could be well within their rights to be getting nervous and/or frustrated.

At the moment, it's just noise...

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4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

A fair shot at the cup ?

Challengers have been complaining from the beginning:

(...)

As they and we always do. Business as usual, move along, nothing to see here. 

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5 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The prestart luffing was discussed here a few months ago, bringing a boat to capsize before the start will be fun.

Another point is that any boat overtaking another one downwind and luffing quickly will bring it to jump out of the water and crash. Well, the most skilled helm wins.

Hold up captain capsize We are still still awaiting your explanation for the end plating photos :rolleyes:

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5 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

A fair shot at the cup ?

Challengers have been complaining from the beginning:

- Rules much too late. D/CoR knew it 6 months in advance

- Arm and fcs much too late

- Wind limits much too late. They might have been obliged to delay B2

- Cagliari cancelled

- Uncertainty about the possibility to get their team in NZ

Welcome to the Americas Cup... Sign up and ride the roller coaster...  Or shut up and get off...

- Rules weren't too late.  And to the Defender (and to a lesser extent the CoR) go the (earned) spoils...

- Arms and FCS late... Look to the CoR for that... that's a Challenger f'up and affected everyone, ETNZ probably most as the others at least had mule programs

- Wind limits late...      Look to CoR for that also... Yes ETNZ also involved, but CoR tried to strong-arm, their own selfish position (perhaps owing to structural design issues) without even communicating with the other challengers as they knew the others would likely be amenable to ETNZ's wind limits.

- Cagliari cancelled.  (And Portsmouth) ... So???  The worst affected were ETNZ.  The least affected were AM and CoR who simply carried on more or less BaU - sailing restrictions in Sardinia not withstanding for a time (giving CoR opportunity to 'fix' LR).

- Uncertainty about getting to NZ....   Toughen up, buttercup.  That's out of most everyone's control.  In one sense be thankful the cup wasn't to be held in one of the other challenging nation's waters... It would already be looking like being cancelled.  And in terms of fair and honourable, it's only right that ETNZ as defender end up on the right side of this issue - especially after the inequity of the impact of the cancellation of the ACWS events on ETNZ's ability to sail Te Aihe.

 

 

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Spec of foil arms was not sole provision of the CoR, the holder was deeply involved so how you wash them of responsibility is baffling. 

 

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9 hours ago, uflux said:

When is the America’s cup ever a level playing field. If you expect that you had better stick to one design. The only current valid point is access to NZ. And that is out of ETNZs control.

No, they can organize the match is Cagliari if necessary.

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6 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

As they and we always do. Business as usual, move along, nothing to see here. 

It's not up to us but to the challengers to decide what they will do.

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13 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It's not up to us but to the challengers to decide what they will do.

No shit.

 

Edit: My comment was not directed at the challengers.

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5 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Spec of foil arms was not sole provision of the CoR, the holder was deeply involved so how you wash them of responsibility is baffling. 

 

Are you sure?

Didn't ETNZ take on the foil arm mechanism leaving the arm itself solely to the COR and their chosen builder?

Only after it failed to reach the required safety margin in the initial tests did the whole thing get looked at by a larger group, respec'ed, redesigned, rebuilt and retested - well that's the popular story IIRC. What have you heard different?

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So ETNZ had no guidelines, specification to ensure compatibility With the FCS or suggestions to the COR to develop an essential item for a boat that ETNZ had designed a rule for? 
 

Dan B “yep it’s going to  have a foil on  one end and a boat on the other but we don’t give a shit what you do With the design as it’s all on you guys. we can’t be bothered as No one needs to computer model anything anyway” 

crack on Italian blokes.. 

 

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12 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

No, they can organize the match is Cagliari if necessary.

Grow up man.

Apart from becoming Holders of the Cup, the biggest payoff to winning the Cup is Hosting it, or choosing where to host it.

Long ago they decided Auckland. Deal with it. The fact that this virus issue is so large and pervasive is beyond where 99.9% of people could have envisioned 5 months ago. Moreover, happily NZ has gone hard and fast in its measures and for once its Geography (of isolation) has given it (and Oz) an advantage.

If the wrinkles of restricted travel and quarantine can be worked through, then NZ is the most appropriate place to hold it, regardless of all other considerations.

The fact that the local organising committees have the basis for the challengers bases ready for their structures makes your suggestions even more fanciful and far fetched.

There is unlikely to be open borders by next March, but no reason to suggest that the Cup cannot proceed as planned. The locals will turn out in droves. The TV coverage will be epic. Lots to look forward to. The fact that no team has really lined up against each other, just adds to the intrigue, and anxiety for some here.

Less conspiracy, more patience. 

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13 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

No, they can organize the match is Cagliari if necessary.

The Challenger can not change where the match can be held unless by Mutual consent, as long as that venue satisfies the DoG

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47 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The Challenger can not change where the match can be held unless by Mutual consent, as long as that venue satisfies the DoG

No, the D decides the venue with acceptation of CoR if in their waters.

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1 hour ago, Boink said:

Grow up man.

Apart from becoming Holders of the Cup, the biggest payoff to winning the Cup is Hosting it, or choosing where to host it.

Long ago they decided Auckland. Deal with it. The fact that this virus issue is so large and pervasive is beyond where 99.9% of people could have envisioned 5 months ago. Moreover, happily NZ has gone hard and fast in its measures and for once its Geography (of isolation) has given it (and Oz) an advantage.

If the wrinkles of restricted travel and quarantine can be worked through, then NZ is the most appropriate place to hold it, regardless of all other considerations.

The fact that the local organising committees have the basis for the challengers bases ready for their structures makes your suggestions even more fanciful and far fetched.

There is unlikely to be open borders by next March, but no reason to suggest that the Cup cannot proceed as planned. The locals will turn out in droves. The TV coverage will be epic. Lots to look forward to. The fact that no team has really lined up against each other, just adds to the intrigue, and anxiety for some here.

Less conspiracy, more patience. 

The location is decided by the D, change of date by MC.

1) We don't know if it will held in march as planned yet

2) Do we know what the italians say if TNZ asks to change dates ?

3) Can it be held in southern winter ?

4) Do we know how NYYC will react ?

At the  end the question is to know if the teams can enter at the right time and will accept they have a fair shot at the cup. That will decided by the NZ government.

Yes for the intrigue and anxiety of a first encounter, real AC.

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On 5/21/2020 at 7:00 PM, Lickindip said:

interesting the description of its use,

not there for aero, not for directional stability while in displacement (he mentions that their B1 hull was designed predominantly for displacement mode)

its there so when they tack/kiss down on the water it produces some buoyancy without the massive wetted surface of the entire hull)

 

Yes, he said the main reason for the bustle was to give a gentle touchdown and less resistance.  UK added their “bustle” to test this.  They had some volume requirements so had to make it much smaller, but it looks like a dagger board.  I doubt that it would give them enough performance to really test that.  He did say that they are using it during tacks where they have a short touchdown.  

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4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

1) We don't know if it will held in march as planned yet

Right now - no one; absolutely no one, can say what will be the situation in a mere 10 days time.

So 10 months from now is almost another Geological epoch....... No one is asking to move the dates of the Cup, No Team, No one connected, No one in Govt. Everyone knows what is at stake. The hoped for Tourist numbers are probably written off, but not the event. And the Location represents the optimal location given todays situation.

So lets quit the speculation - it gets no one, nowhere.

End of. 

Lets speculate on betting odds, which will remain possibly the only way to make some coin, given the ecomomy and state of the Stock Exchanges.

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18 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It's not up to us but to the challengers to decide what they will do.

well for sure they won't take the poor legal advice of a wanker like you. 

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11 hours ago, JALhazmat said:


 

Dan B “yep it’s going to  have a foil on  one end and a boat on the other but we don’t give a shit what you do With the design as it’s all on you guys. we can’t be bothered as No one needs to computer model anything anyway” 

crack on Italian blokes.. 

 

cite that or anything close please?

 

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On 5/22/2020 at 2:12 AM, Stingray~ said:

YT version of the Simmer interview, also linked to above. Pretty good.

 

This was pretty good yeah.

 

I hadn't been paying attention to the wind limits thing so 4pm race starts was a surprise.

It means there should be no drifters that would have been an issue with ~midday-2pm starts -> sounds very much like B2 will be much more slender.

 

Fore-aft weight distribution from crew positioning to windward/split both sides was a bit of a surprise but I see the truth in it immediately.

 

Specifying the foils as small -> cavitation limited downwind was also a bit surprising, not sure why bigger foils would allow faster downwind? Longer chord = less tight curve = cavitates at higher speed? Or I'm quite misunderstanding what he's suggesting there.

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23 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Spec of foil arms was not sole provision of the CoR, the holder was deeply involved so how you wash them of responsibility is baffling. 

 

 

13 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

So ETNZ had no guidelines, specification to ensure compatibility With the FCS or suggestions to the COR to develop an essential item for a boat that ETNZ had designed a rule for? 
 

Dan B “yep it’s going to  have a foil on  one end and a boat on the other but we don’t give a shit what you do With the design as it’s all on you guys. we can’t be bothered as No one needs to computer model anything anyway” 

crack on Italian blokes.. 

 

So The ETNZ engineers designing the socket it slots into makes them responsible (your words) for the overall design failure?

Sure they may have had more input but your accusation of deep involvement suggests something more concrete than your assumption above provides.

It was sorted eventually by the best brains - perhaps this just proves that the 'divided responsibilities' model chosen was not a good one.

You win the thing, you get to make these decisions and then live with the results, good and bad....

Or we could go back to deliberate malfeasance if that is your preference??

 

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5 hours ago, Boink said:

Right now - no one; absolutely no one, can say what will be the situation in a mere 10 days time.

So 10 months from now is almost another Geological epoch....... No one is asking to move the dates of the Cup, No Team, No one connected, No one in Govt. Everyone knows what is at stake. The hoped for Tourist numbers are probably written off, but not the event. And the Location represents the optimal location given todays situation.

So lets quit the speculation - it gets no one, nowhere.

End of. 

Lets speculate on betting odds, which will remain possibly the only way to make some coin, given the ecomomy and state of the Stock Exchanges.

Agreed, no one knows what will come soon and I am think in particular to AA not knowing if they can send their crew when their boat arrives. The question challengers must be wondering now is the last date they can get in to get a fair shot. And they may not have the same answer

Agreed too, most fun will be to bet on boats.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The question challengers must be wondering now is the last date they can get in to get a fair shot. And they may not have the same answer

 

Agreed. TH says the window is closing, it does make sense. 

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3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Agreed. TH says the window is closing, it does make sense. 

PB is surely the most agressive challenger, if he considers that he does not have a fair shot he will refuse to sail, as he did already and he asks Dalton to sail it in Calgliari about 6 months later, if TNZ refuses as they are entitled, PB will also refuse to delay of a year in Auckland.

 

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15 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

No, the D decides the venue with acceptation of CoR if in their waters.

 No the Defender chooses the venue. That venue has to satisfy the conditions in the DoG which is why Oracle disputed RAK in 2010. But the Defender does reserve the right to choose the venue. The Deed does not choose the venue

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

PB is surely the most agressive challenger, if he considers that he does not have a fair shot he will refuse to sail, as he did already and he asks Dalton to sail it in Calgliari about 6 months later, if TNZ refuses as they are entitled, PB will also refuse to delay to delay it of a year in Auckland.

 

Then he will lose the Cup. The Cup went ahead in Bermuda. And will go ahead in Auckland if he refuses

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

 No the Defender chooses the venue. That venue has to satisfy the conditions in the DoG which is why Oracle disputed RAK in 2010. But the Defender does reserve the right to choose the venue. The Deed does not choose the venue

^ D = Denfender.

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^ D = Denfender.

Then that’s exactly what I said?

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Then he will lose the Cup. The Cup went ahead in Bermuda. And will go ahead in Auckland if he refuses

In Bermuda they decided to get out, he won't do it here.

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

Then that’s exactly what I said?

Not exactly, the D decides the venue with agreement of the CoR if in his country, the dates are MC. Small difference but it can play in actual conditions.

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5 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Not exactly, the D decides the venue with agreement of the CoR if in his country, the dates are MC. Small difference but it can play in actual conditions.

So the “D” decides the venue. That’s all we need to know. The Cup will never be sailed in the country of the Challenger.

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24 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Especially if it has plague.

Sorely tempted to fall into sexist stereotypes ... but why do you insist on “the plague” in Italy? You could at least make the effort of looking up what the situation is - in Italy and especially Sardinia. Or consider that come July beaches will receive foreign tourists with a minimum of formalities. But when I say foreign I mean European, i.e. countries with homogeneous testing, tracing and if it came to the worst free medical care agreements. For these reasons the US need not apply

Mind you, I don’t believe for a moment the Cup will be held in Cagliari, or anywhere else outside NZ

 

 

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On 5/23/2020 at 10:04 AM, barfy said:

cite that or anything close please?

 

Wasnt me that said the COR was SOLELY responsible for the arms that was NAV

 

the bit you quoted was taking the piss of that notion

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23 hours ago, nav said:

 

So The ETNZ engineers designing the socket it slots into makes them responsible (your words) for the overall design failure?

Sure they may have had more input but your accusation of deep involvement suggests something more concrete than your assumption above provides.

It was sorted eventually by the best brains - perhaps this just proves that the 'divided responsibilities' model chosen was not a good one.

You win the thing, you get to make these decisions and then live with the results, good and bad....

Or we could go back to deliberate malfeasance if that is your preference??

 

I Haven’t  apportioned Blame for the the failure to ONE party, that was your stance  that It was SOLELY the COR that was at fault. 
 

collective responsibility between the holder and Cor is what I was getting at 

you can’t believe that the holder  didn’t hand the cor a file with dimensions And spec BEFORE  the arm failure? 
so therefor they have to share some of the responsibility  

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3 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

.....

collective responsibility between the holder and Cor is what I was getting at 

you can’t believe that the holder  didn’t hand the cor a file with dimensions And spec BEFORE  the arm failure? 
so therefor they have to share some of the responsibility  

And I and a couple of others it seems were interested to find out if you knew something more than has been publicly given out to date as your claims suggest (always interested in factual AC info') or are just making assumptions...it seems clearer and clearer that it's the latter.

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12 hours ago, Xlot said:

Sorely tempted to fall into sexist stereotypes ... but why do you insist on “the plague” in Italy? You could at least make the effort of looking up what the situation is - in Italy and especially Sardinia. Or consider that come July beaches will receive foreign tourists with a minimum of formalities. But when I say foreign I mean European, i.e. countries with homogeneous testing, tracing and if it came to the worst free medical care agreements. For these reasons the US need not apply

Mind you, I don’t believe for a moment the Cup will be held in Cagliari, or anywhere else outside NZ

 

 

Sorry should have said coronavirus. Did not mean to offend sensibilities. Do you really think it will be gone from all of Europe by July?  That would be super.  Only takes a couple of tourists...

Here in Amurrica we got the plague. Our beaches are open now, folks are flocking. Cases rising in many places where it's opened up. Nobody seems to bother about pesky facts like asymptomatic spread 2 days before symptoms, just focus on temperature taking in stores. By then too late.  We are resigned to being a pariah state because apparently deaths by suicide and opioid abuse will exceed COVID19 deaths if the country is not open for business. Or so they say as they golf...

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